23 ms·

Nootropics Survey Results And Analysis

121 points by Nogwater 13y ago

JosephRedfern 13y ago
Gwern has written a lot on the subject of Nootropics: http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics
- Nogwater 13y ago
  Which is where I found this link: https://twitter.com/gwern/status/435111412277313537 https://twitter.com/gwern/status/435111412277313537 :)
ozi 13y ago
I think a better way to deal with the placebo affect is to only look at accounts where usage is greater than ninety days. As my psychopharmacologist put it, "you can cure just about anything for four weeks with a sugar pill."
pakitan 13y ago
I'm quite surprised to see caffeine ranked so close to modafinil. I've never used modafinil but from what I've read, for some people it's almost a wonder-drug. Caffeine gets me "high" but if anything, it can even be counter-productive at times. I wouldn't rate it anywhere near life-changing.
- Aloisius 13y ago
  Well. I have tried modafanil from two different sources (both were modalert iirc) and noticed absolutely nothing. I tried various doses. I tried taking it before staying up all night and after. Each time was a complete disappointment. So it could be hype, me being unlucky with fake pills or differences in physiology.
  - computer 13y ago
    There's a theory that there's a group of people that has a genetic mutation that makes modafinil not work for them. That might be the case for you?
  - pstuart 13y ago
    Same thing here. I was thrilled to learn it could be prescribed for sleep apnea and was provided with free samples. I felt nothing. An acquaintance mentioned it did wonders for resetting the internal clock when traveling to different time zones, I'll try it again when that occurs.
  - toomuchtodo 13y ago
    I've used modafinil in concert with tDCS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_direct-current_stimulation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_direct-current_sti...) and have found it very beneficial except for some slight side effects (as someone else had mentioned in the thread, jaw clenching).
    - aantix 13y ago
      Did you build your own tDCS device?
- oldstrangers 13y ago
  I took modafinil in the form of Provigil. Wasn't very similar to caffeine. It's more akin to Adderall. However, I still rank caffeine as more productive for me than either Provigil or Adderall. Provigil was weird, seemed to increase my hearing, and put me on edge. I was certainly more alert, but to an extent that was just excessive. I'd pay attention to so many trivial details that it was mentally and physically exhausting me. Things I never noticed before, song lyrics, instruments in songs, people's mannerisms, etc. Adderall wasn't as bad, but it just wrecked my physical state. Twitchy, nervous, jaw hurt, wouldn't eat. In low enough doses, adderall is probably as useful as a cup of coffee. Long term health risks though seem pretty bleak. Wellbutrin is another wonder drug that's not always talked about. Increased my concentration, increased my sex drive, increased my athletic performance... But! The first week on a full dose and I wanted jump through a window. Does very weird things to your brain (epileptic seizures included). I described it as being able to feel things in my head that I shouldn't be able to. Started hearing lots of high pitched humming. Apparently all side effects, bleg. I'll stick to coffee.
  - naner 13y ago
    I have always had issues that are consistent with low-to-moderate ADD (never bothered getting diagnosed) and caffeine provides a noticeable, but not drastic, improvement for me. I've never tried any other drugs. It is probably safe to say the effectiveness of caffeine/modafinil/adderall depends on your unique personality, brain chemistry, etc.
saneshark 13y ago
I'd be curious to see this study performed having the effects measured with EEG while performing cognitive functions. Asking people how they rate them is far too subjective.
Xcelerate 13y ago
What I find interesting is the fact that modafinil and caffeine ranked almost the same. I've always thought it would be interesting to try modafinil because of the widely claimed cognitive benefits and how it has less drawbacks than caffeine, but if it ranks essentially the same as caffeine, there's really no point to trying it that I can see. Caffeine doesn't really do that much to be honest. It seems as though none of these really have any profound effects on mental capability.
- robbiep 13y ago
  The difference between caffeine and modafinil come down to two things for me - - length of effect (caffeine seems to pick me up for had ran hour to an hour with a 30 min lead time - vs 12 hours with modafinil with a 45-1hr lead time) - side effects (if I am really tired and have to get a big day out, I might end up havering somewhere between 6-12 'doses' of coffee. Cf. 200 mg modafinil- by 3/4 through the day on the caffeine track I am jittery, have a noticeable essential tremor, my eyes are gritty - all this vs nothing on modafinil- nothing for me at least) Few notes: Modafinil was a massive productivity booster while I was at uni. I would occasionally do a 36 hour period of solid study or work or whatever to cover a whole bunch of content and take up to 600mg modafinil durin this period, sometimes followed by a normal 8 hr sleep, then repeat. It was wonderful; I covered huge sections of my curriculum efficiently. The only side effect I have ever really felt from modafinil is a slight bit of 'coke mouth' when taking a high dose, and a minor bit of jaw clenching a la MDMA at the high doses as well. Now I use only when work is very busy and I have been stupid with my sleep, 100mg mane for a couple of the days of the week seems to work very well although I am not an 'every day' doser and always prefer to be around 36 hours from my last dose if I am going to drink or take any other substances (I find I don't get the sensation of drunk if still on modafinil) Edit: to more directly respond to your post, as opposed to ramble, you note that caffeine doesn't do that much to your mental capacity. Modafinil doesn't really either. The studies that have looked at mental capacity, creativity etc whilst under modafinil cf. amphetamines cf. placebo have all shown decreasing returns for people of normal or high baseline cognitive function. Modafinil is not going to make you smarter. But if you take it in the right environment, it can make you a lot more productive
computer 13y ago
I have a fair bit of experience with modafinil/adronafinil, so if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask. I'm not recommending trying them without docter's prescription, of course. It helped me greatly to stay up longer, to sleep less, and to concentrate better. However, those effects get much weaker over time: the sleep effects for me were less clear after 1-2 months, the concentration after weeks. Side effects can be nasty though, including limited appetite and gastrointestinal discomfort. For the rest of the list: I've also tried various -racetam's, and they did nothing for me. Creatine, vitamin D don't have nootropic effects for me (but I still take them for other reasons). Caffeine is meh. Haven't tried the rest of the list.
- zen_boy 13y ago
  Would love to hear your general thoughts on Modafinil. One of the things they say is that it has minor side-effects and that tolerance builds up really slow, if at all, in comparison. What's your take on it, empirically?
  - computer 13y ago
    First a warning, because I've seen many misconceptions: Modafinil is not a sleep replacement. Especially not long-term. Do not use it that way. Its anti-sleep property is that it suppresses many parts of the urge to sleep. It does not provide any of the effects sleep provides. -- Well, I've always had issues with sleep: I have an 25 hour circadian rythm, so before modafinil I often just let it run and wake up an hour later every day. I thought modafinil might be something useful to help me experiment with my sleep. Note that I did not get a doctor's receipt, so I imported the drug myself. (I'm not in the US; it's not a felony where I am.) You say "in comparison"-- I must say that I do not have much to compare it to. The only other substance of this kind that I feel an effect of is caffeine, and it's on a completely different level, in all ways. Side-effects I noticed were mostly dry/chapped lips, reduced appetite and diarrhea-- the last of which seems not to be very common. In terms of its nootropic effects, I'm normally very bad at focusing on stuff for long periods of time, and for some periods it helped me focus for long times on tedious things. Or it helped me focus on cleaning the house really well, reading the internet thoroughly and avoiding what I had to get done. But if I used it and spent a night studying, I would remember the material studied very well. This concentration effect was also the quickest to fade after longer use. The main effect is its anti-sleep property is that it suppresses many parts of the urge to sleep. It does not provide any of the effects sleep provides. Right now I don't use it, because I am not working on anything that would benefit from it, and the side effects are not worth it to me right now. Also, melatonin has helped me with my sleep rythm issues for some time, so I don't need it for that. I did not notice any addictive effects whatsoever. There's no high you get from it, nor a low after you stop, perhaps besides sleeping a bit longer for a few days.
drakaal 13y ago
I think you have to have certain conditions for nootropics to really do anything. I take Aniracetam and it makes a big difference in my life. I take a LOT less than most people, and the thing I notice is that I don't have songs stuck in my head. This may seem like a weird condition to be trying to get rid of but it makes a huge difference in my life and my concentration. There may be other effects, and some fuzzy metrics we could test for like how well I do at Baby Animal Match, or how fast I can do a Sudoku, but I can "observe" this one in my day to day life. I talk about my experience here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcHkTuMlqys http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcHkTuMlqys
- VLM 13y ago
  I've been following this topic for 20-30 years and this is the only supplement I've taken where I've felt mental state changes. Its a noticeable anxiolytic. If its not a strong one, I can only wonder at what a real strong one must feel like. Not feeling "performance anxiety" most likely does improve performance for most people. Where you obtain this stuff is a mystery. Amazon used to ship it, but it appears and disappears. One interesting problem is what is merely OTC in one country is prescription only in another country. This is typical for all the substances in the list. This is typical for most substances, it seems, like stevia and perhaps a hundred food dyes. Stuff I've tried with no measurable performance gain: caffeine, piracetam (headache), creatine, vinpocetine, choline, some others. Other than occasional headache, not much effect one way or the other.
  - thelogos 13y ago
    You can find bulk powder but I find the taste unbearable. Rx aniracetam is far too expensive. I'm just waiting for the day when cortex gets their high-impact ampakine onto the market.
- thelogos 13y ago
  I was really surprised at the effect of aniracetam also. Usually most of these nootropics either do nothing or they jack up your heart-rate like any other stimulants. It's interesting to note that aniracetam is considered an ampakine, which lowers the threshold required for long-term potentiation. When I was taking aniracetam, the anxiolytic effect was too strong to be placebo. Almost as strong as alcohol. I was genuinely surprised. It makes activities like staring at leaves fluttering almost magical. Eventually I gave it up because this effect wore off and it was too expensive.
fatman 13y ago
What about Nicotine? Back in college and for a few years afterward, I used to put in a big fat dip (or chew) for all/late-nighters to help me buckle down, focus, and stay alert. I stopped for all the standard health reasons, but I find that caffeine is only about 2/3 as good.
- oldstrangers 13y ago
  Maybe you find caffeine 2/3 as good because it's not as addictive as nicotine.
  - Alex3917 13y ago
    Nicotine isn't any more addictive than caffeine when you control for route of administration.
    - endianswap 13y ago
      Sure but GGP said he used chewing tobacco.
  - driverdan 13y ago
    Caffeine is highly addictive. It only takes a few days of use for signs of addiction to show. Cessation is just easier than nicotine.
    - aestra 13y ago
      > It only takes a few days of use for signs of addiction to show. Eh... not for me. I can use caffeine for days and then not use it for days no problems at all. Of course probably because caffeine does absolutely nothing to me. I just like the hot beverage.
- surement 13y ago
  Using nicotine gum, you can avoid the typical health hazards of tobacco products. I personally found that caffeine wasn't comparable to nicotine, the former just keeps me awake, while the latter can keep me focused and motivated for several hours.
joe_computer 13y ago
Gwern also has a detailed personal examination of Nootropics.[0] 0: http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics
_delirium 13y ago
The definition of nootropics used here excludes them (too many adverse health effects), but I wonder how the drugs on this list compare to e.g. amphetamines in terms of pro-productivity effects.
- my_other_acct 13y ago
  Amphetamines are certainly more dangerous. They actually make you feel good/euphoric. Modafinil just makes you feel awake. I've heard people complain that amphetamines increase focus at the expense of creativity.
  - api 13y ago
    Another related danger of amphetamines: because they make you feel good, they create a dopaminergic illusion of proficiency. Whether or not they are actually improving your proficiency can be difficult to judge.
- ZirconCode 13y ago
  Gwern has a great write-up on this: http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#adderall http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#adderall Of course it's only one data point, but a high quality one imo. edit: Just saw him linked below, should've read first -_-
- thelogos 13y ago
  The problem with amphetamine is, when they do work, the crash is horrible. When the crash goes away, it no longer does anything. So you have to up the dose and the cycle starts again. Some people use NMDA antagonist to reverse tolerance, but lets just say that they do a lot more than reverse your tolerance. In the end, most user end up with a permanent tolerance that no amount of drug vacation will lower. I'm not even mentioning here the whole issue of amphetamine disrupting vesicle pH gradient, causing dopamine leakage. Dopamine is very prone is auto-oxidation to quinone when they float free around in the cytosol.
  - sizzle 13y ago
dominotw 13y ago
I used truBrain (Piracetam) religiously for a 1 month and felt zero effects whatsoever.
Havoc 13y ago
Interesting idea. Some pretty wild comments in the XLS file too. e.g. >In a tiny blind self trial I could easily tell this from placebo >I've forgotten what doses I tried. >Long lasting panic attack >Most vile substance I have tasted This guy wins though: >1.5 tsp brewed grounds, rectally [caffeine]
- aestra 13y ago
  >1.5 tsp brewed grounds, rectally [caffeine] Ah yes, coffee enemas, the pinnacle of pseudoscience - and dangerous at that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_enema http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_enema Some proponents of alternative medicine have claimed that coffee enemas have an anti-cancer effect by "detoxifying" metabolic products of tumors.[4] There is no medical scientific evidence to support any anti-cancer effect of coffee enemas.[2][5][6] Coffee enemas can cause numerous side effects, including infections, sepsis (including campylobacter sepsis), severe electrolyte imbalance, colitis, polymicrobial enteric septicemia, proctocolitis, salmonella, brain abscess, and heart failure.[4][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13] If the coffee is inserted too quickly or is too hot, it could cause internal burning[14] or rectal perforation.[15] Long term use of coffee enemas can lead to malabsorption of fat, fat-soluble vitamins, and calcium. The use of coffee enemas has led to several deaths as a result of severe electrolyte imbalance, hyponatremia, dehydration, pleural and pericardial effusions.[8][16] The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has ruled that study participants must be warned of the risk of death from coffee enemas in studies that use them.[17][18] http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ask-the-science-based-pharmacist-what-are-the-benefits-of-coffee-enemas/ http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ask-the-science-based-ph...
mistercow 13y ago
>One of the nootropics measured, choline bitartrate, has carefully regulated ability to cross the blood-brain barrier beyond a certain level, and so it would be surprising if it had direct and immediate cognitive effects. This isn't quite right. This is true of choline bitartrate itself, but IIRC it is fairly quickly metabolized into other forms of choline that can cross the BBB. I would say it's pretty likely that increasing choline intake would have a significant effect on cognition. Humans have been consuming large amounts of fish for much of our evolutionary history, compared to today's typical diet. Given the way choline is used by our brains, and the relative plethora we had available when our brains were evolving, it's hard to believe that we get as much as we can use in a modern diet.
- shotgun 13y ago
  90% of people aren't consuming enough Choline http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/21/6/LB46-c http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/21/6/LB46...
tokenadult 13y ago
Okay, I have read the fine blog post (which took a while to load). The article leads off by defining nootropics as "substances which purportedly improve mental functioning with relatively few side effects when used responsibility." The blog post author mentions a few small-n, limited duration studies, and then describes his voluntary-response survey methodology: "I asked people in the two largest online nootropics communities (that I know of), Reddit’s r/nootropics and Longecity’s Brain Health forum, to take a survey describing their use of 31 different substances. I got 162 responses." "Respondents were asked to rate their subjective experiences of different nootropics on a scale of zero (completely useless, did nothing) to ten (life-changing). Comments on Reddit suggest several people misunderstood the scale, but not much I can do about that at this point." So all the data here are voluntary-response data, with the known problem of response bias[1] and other defects about which I have an entire FAQ[2] I post on HN from time to time. Worse than that, all the data are self-report data,[3] which also have plenty of problems, even when gathered in a comprehensive survey with a representative sample of the general population, because of the risks of incorrect self-reports unless checked by other data sources that are objective.[4] The blog post author then gives a lengthy description, with pretty colored charts, of his hand-waving statistical analysis of these dubious voluntary reponse, self-report data. It would not be wise (that is, it would not be a sign of improved mental functioning) to take these conclusions seriously as a description of how nootropics work, or indeed if they work at all. The author would do well to study fundamental principles of statistics by reading the online articles "Advice to Mathematics Teachers on Evaluating Introductory Statistics Textbooks"[5] and "The Introductory Statistics Course: A Ptolemaic Curriculum?"[6] to wrap his mind around how strictly necessary it is to have a valid data-gathering plan before engaging in any statistical manipulation of the data. Garbage in, garbage out. More background on experiment design to think about while evaluating the blog post kindly submitted here can be found in the essay "Warning Signs in Experimental Design and Interpretation"[7] by Peter Norvig, LISP hacker and director of research at Google, on how to interpret scientific research. What might big-time convince me to try out a nootropic substance would be an objective demonstration that someone with typical abilities (say, someone who goes into online discussion with a known propensity to believe what's on Reddit without checking it) can become a person with thoughtful insight (say, someone like Peter Norvig) at adult age simply by ingesting the nootropic. On my part, I like to improve mental functioning with relatively few side effects as much as anybody here, and one way I attempt to do that in middle age is by reading thoughtful articles by careful scholars and then discussing those among the learned participants on Hacker News. I'd appreciate comments from any of you about how one could know, objectively and verifiably, that a nootropic substance really does people good (even if they don't feel that themselves). I especially invite comments from participants here who have a professional understanding of statistical studies in clinical trials of new medicines. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_bias [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2322237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2322237 [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-report_study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-report_study [4] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15528061 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15528061 http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/barker/supp/excerpt.pdf http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/barker/supp/excerpt.pdf [5] http://statland.org/MyPapers/MAAFIXED.PDF http://statland.org/MyPapers/MAAFIXED.PDF [6] http://escholarship.org/uc/item/6hb3k0nz http://escholarship.org/uc/item/6hb3k0nz [7] http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html
proggy123 13y ago
I've been taking modafinil for a while now (over a year). I initially started taking it to help with a massive workload at my job. I was a long-time software engineer at Google at the time. I was utterly burned out and couldn't retain my focus for more than 10-15 minutes- definitely not enough when you're writing c++ code and need to retain a huge amount of state in your head (header file definitions, pointer ownership, etc. etc.). But i wasn't in a situation where i could immediately take time off or change jobs/groups. So i started taking Modafinil to see if it would help me concentrate and get things done. The immediate benefit and the thing that i still love it for today is how focused it makes me. As a programmer, most of my day is just getting things typed out. Pure creative thinking is maybe 1 hour a day at best. Without modafinil, if people came and interrupted me, i would get distracted, surf the web and it could easily take me upto an hour to get my head back in the code (especially since i hated what i was doing). With Modafinil, i would just retain stuff and be able to get back to work immediately. I'm in my mid-30s. Even on a good day, without Modafinil, i could stay in flow for maybe an hour or so before i would get distracted and lose focus. On Modafinil, 3 hours is average, 4 hours happens sometimes. You know when you're fixing bugs in a big codebase and for each bug you kind of have to load up state in your head and think -oh yeah i need to change x,y,z here and a,b,c there and these tests 1,2,3 have to change and i should probably make sure foo and bar are still working. Well with modafinil i was able to think of that and keep all of it in my head for the 2-3 hours it would take me to type out a fix. Or you're reading a few bug reports and you are working on fixing one - you look at the file you're in and realize that while you're working in that file you could fix 2 or 3 other things or you could do a refactor - and you just do it without losing state in your head of where you are in the original bug. Modafinil let me do that- it was totally like a ram upgrade. (Or really like i wasn't burned out or was 25 again or something). So yeah my short-term recall also went up. Another example - at google we had lots of command line tools each with tons of options. It used to be a real mental effort for me to recall the 8-10 options i would have to pass on the command-line along with gigantic path and filenames to get something simple done. This isn't uncommon- some of the most popular internal webpages are commandline option references for the really common tools. And it was a huge distraction - to have to drop what you're doing to have to go to some webpage, scroll around or click find until you found some poorly documented option that maybe did what you wanted etc. With Modafinil, that was all just in my head for the whole day - enough so that at the end of the day i could make up shell scripts for the useful stuff, but during the day i could work really fast because i wasn't looking stuff up all the time. So yeah it did great things for me. But the bad news- i tried taking it every day - after a week, paranoia set in and mood swings. I would get extremely defensive about simple comments in code reviews. Typically i would take 200mg only in the morning so i could sleep at night- but if my schedule was bad and i went more than 3-4 days without sleep i would start having persistent hallucinations that lasted 10-15 seconds - not just corner of the eye stuff but talking to people who weren't there. Nowadays, i take it at most 100 mg at a time a maximum of twice a week. I really enjoy programming and i want to think i'm good at it so taking Modafinil felt a little like cheating with steroids or something. My current job is much easier than Google and I've been able to replace most of the positive effects of Moda by doing a ton more planning - e.g. i help my short term memory by writing copious comments, keeping a detailed log of exactly what i'm doing in org-mode, exercising good email discipline, writing code much more defensively so i don't actually keep a lot of state in my head etc. etc. I meditate every day even for 5 minutes just in case that will help with focus. A lot of this works really well. But if the shit hits the fan at work and I'm debugging blind in a bunch of crappy code i've never seen before, or my fragile ego requires I be the guy who is just faster than others and gets stuff done, that's when i still reach for Modafinil.
tripper 13y ago
"nootropics are substances which purportedly improve mental functioning with relatively few side effects when used responsibility." hello: LSD?
aestra 13y ago
Just to let everyone know, a very very rare but very serious side effect of modafinil is Stevens–Johnson syndrome and other potential life threating skin conditions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevens%E2%80%93Johnson_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevens%E2%80%93Johnson_syndrom... I am not trying to discourage use.
rdl 13y ago
I wish they'd included amphetamines (both ADHD medications like adderall/amphetamine and more serious things like desoxyn/methamphetamine), for comparison.
GrahamsNumber 13y ago
What kind/brand of modafinil? The indian-online-pharmacy deal doesn't seem too trustworthy to me
twobeard 13y ago
What makes people believe that their brains are not good enough just as they are? If you take nootropics you're messing with the most precious mechanism of your body. Are there any studies at all about the effects of long-term use on perfecly healthy young people?

121 points by Nogwater 13y ago

JosephRedfern 13y ago

Gwern has written a lot on the subject of Nootropics: http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics

Nogwater 13y ago
Which is where I found this link: https://twitter.com/gwern/status/435111412277313537 https://twitter.com/gwern/status/435111412277313537 :)

ozi 13y ago

I think a better way to deal with the placebo affect is to only look at accounts where usage is greater than ninety days. As my psychopharmacologist put it, "you can cure just about anything for four weeks with a sugar pill."

pakitan 13y ago

I'm quite surprised to see caffeine ranked so close to modafinil. I've never used modafinil but from what I've read, for some people it's almost a wonder-drug. Caffeine gets me "high" but if anything, it can even be counter-productive at times. I wouldn't rate it anywhere near life-changing.

Aloisius 13y ago
Well. I have tried modafanil from two different sources (both were modalert iirc) and noticed absolutely nothing. I tried various doses. I tried taking it before staying up all night and after. Each time was a complete disappointment. So it could be hype, me being unlucky with fake pills or differences in physiology.
- computer 13y ago
  There's a theory that there's a group of people that has a genetic mutation that makes modafinil not work for them. That might be the case for you?
- pstuart 13y ago
  Same thing here. I was thrilled to learn it could be prescribed for sleep apnea and was provided with free samples. I felt nothing. An acquaintance mentioned it did wonders for resetting the internal clock when traveling to different time zones, I'll try it again when that occurs.
- toomuchtodo 13y ago
  I've used modafinil in concert with tDCS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_direct-current_stimulation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_direct-current_sti...) and have found it very beneficial except for some slight side effects (as someone else had mentioned in the thread, jaw clenching).
  - aantix 13y ago
    Did you build your own tDCS device?
oldstrangers 13y ago
I took modafinil in the form of Provigil. Wasn't very similar to caffeine. It's more akin to Adderall. However, I still rank caffeine as more productive for me than either Provigil or Adderall. Provigil was weird, seemed to increase my hearing, and put me on edge. I was certainly more alert, but to an extent that was just excessive. I'd pay attention to so many trivial details that it was mentally and physically exhausting me. Things I never noticed before, song lyrics, instruments in songs, people's mannerisms, etc. Adderall wasn't as bad, but it just wrecked my physical state. Twitchy, nervous, jaw hurt, wouldn't eat. In low enough doses, adderall is probably as useful as a cup of coffee. Long term health risks though seem pretty bleak. Wellbutrin is another wonder drug that's not always talked about. Increased my concentration, increased my sex drive, increased my athletic performance... But! The first week on a full dose and I wanted jump through a window. Does very weird things to your brain (epileptic seizures included). I described it as being able to feel things in my head that I shouldn't be able to. Started hearing lots of high pitched humming. Apparently all side effects, bleg. I'll stick to coffee.
- naner 13y ago
  I have always had issues that are consistent with low-to-moderate ADD (never bothered getting diagnosed) and caffeine provides a noticeable, but not drastic, improvement for me. I've never tried any other drugs. It is probably safe to say the effectiveness of caffeine/modafinil/adderall depends on your unique personality, brain chemistry, etc.

saneshark 13y ago

I'd be curious to see this study performed having the effects measured with EEG while performing cognitive functions. Asking people how they rate them is far too subjective.

Xcelerate 13y ago

What I find interesting is the fact that modafinil and caffeine ranked almost the same. I've always thought it would be interesting to try modafinil because of the widely claimed cognitive benefits and how it has less drawbacks than caffeine, but if it ranks essentially the same as caffeine, there's really no point to trying it that I can see. Caffeine doesn't really do that much to be honest. It seems as though none of these really have any profound effects on mental capability.

robbiep 13y ago
The difference between caffeine and modafinil come down to two things for me - - length of effect (caffeine seems to pick me up for had ran hour to an hour with a 30 min lead time - vs 12 hours with modafinil with a 45-1hr lead time) - side effects (if I am really tired and have to get a big day out, I might end up havering somewhere between 6-12 'doses' of coffee. Cf. 200 mg modafinil- by 3/4 through the day on the caffeine track I am jittery, have a noticeable essential tremor, my eyes are gritty - all this vs nothing on modafinil- nothing for me at least) Few notes: Modafinil was a massive productivity booster while I was at uni. I would occasionally do a 36 hour period of solid study or work or whatever to cover a whole bunch of content and take up to 600mg modafinil durin this period, sometimes followed by a normal 8 hr sleep, then repeat. It was wonderful; I covered huge sections of my curriculum efficiently. The only side effect I have ever really felt from modafinil is a slight bit of 'coke mouth' when taking a high dose, and a minor bit of jaw clenching a la MDMA at the high doses as well. Now I use only when work is very busy and I have been stupid with my sleep, 100mg mane for a couple of the days of the week seems to work very well although I am not an 'every day' doser and always prefer to be around 36 hours from my last dose if I am going to drink or take any other substances (I find I don't get the sensation of drunk if still on modafinil) Edit: to more directly respond to your post, as opposed to ramble, you note that caffeine doesn't do that much to your mental capacity. Modafinil doesn't really either. The studies that have looked at mental capacity, creativity etc whilst under modafinil cf. amphetamines cf. placebo have all shown decreasing returns for people of normal or high baseline cognitive function. Modafinil is not going to make you smarter. But if you take it in the right environment, it can make you a lot more productive

computer 13y ago

I have a fair bit of experience with modafinil/adronafinil, so if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask. I'm not recommending trying them without docter's prescription, of course. It helped me greatly to stay up longer, to sleep less, and to concentrate better. However, those effects get much weaker over time: the sleep effects for me were less clear after 1-2 months, the concentration after weeks. Side effects can be nasty though, including limited appetite and gastrointestinal discomfort. For the rest of the list: I've also tried various -racetam's, and they did nothing for me. Creatine, vitamin D don't have nootropic effects for me (but I still take them for other reasons). Caffeine is meh. Haven't tried the rest of the list.

zen_boy 13y ago
Would love to hear your general thoughts on Modafinil. One of the things they say is that it has minor side-effects and that tolerance builds up really slow, if at all, in comparison. What's your take on it, empirically?
- computer 13y ago
  First a warning, because I've seen many misconceptions: Modafinil is not a sleep replacement. Especially not long-term. Do not use it that way. Its anti-sleep property is that it suppresses many parts of the urge to sleep. It does not provide any of the effects sleep provides. -- Well, I've always had issues with sleep: I have an 25 hour circadian rythm, so before modafinil I often just let it run and wake up an hour later every day. I thought modafinil might be something useful to help me experiment with my sleep. Note that I did not get a doctor's receipt, so I imported the drug myself. (I'm not in the US; it's not a felony where I am.) You say "in comparison"-- I must say that I do not have much to compare it to. The only other substance of this kind that I feel an effect of is caffeine, and it's on a completely different level, in all ways. Side-effects I noticed were mostly dry/chapped lips, reduced appetite and diarrhea-- the last of which seems not to be very common. In terms of its nootropic effects, I'm normally very bad at focusing on stuff for long periods of time, and for some periods it helped me focus for long times on tedious things. Or it helped me focus on cleaning the house really well, reading the internet thoroughly and avoiding what I had to get done. But if I used it and spent a night studying, I would remember the material studied very well. This concentration effect was also the quickest to fade after longer use. The main effect is its anti-sleep property is that it suppresses many parts of the urge to sleep. It does not provide any of the effects sleep provides. Right now I don't use it, because I am not working on anything that would benefit from it, and the side effects are not worth it to me right now. Also, melatonin has helped me with my sleep rythm issues for some time, so I don't need it for that. I did not notice any addictive effects whatsoever. There's no high you get from it, nor a low after you stop, perhaps besides sleeping a bit longer for a few days.

drakaal 13y ago

I think you have to have certain conditions for nootropics to really do anything. I take Aniracetam and it makes a big difference in my life. I take a LOT less than most people, and the thing I notice is that I don't have songs stuck in my head. This may seem like a weird condition to be trying to get rid of but it makes a huge difference in my life and my concentration. There may be other effects, and some fuzzy metrics we could test for like how well I do at Baby Animal Match, or how fast I can do a Sudoku, but I can "observe" this one in my day to day life. I talk about my experience here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcHkTuMlqys http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcHkTuMlqys

VLM 13y ago
I've been following this topic for 20-30 years and this is the only supplement I've taken where I've felt mental state changes. Its a noticeable anxiolytic. If its not a strong one, I can only wonder at what a real strong one must feel like. Not feeling "performance anxiety" most likely does improve performance for most people. Where you obtain this stuff is a mystery. Amazon used to ship it, but it appears and disappears. One interesting problem is what is merely OTC in one country is prescription only in another country. This is typical for all the substances in the list. This is typical for most substances, it seems, like stevia and perhaps a hundred food dyes. Stuff I've tried with no measurable performance gain: caffeine, piracetam (headache), creatine, vinpocetine, choline, some others. Other than occasional headache, not much effect one way or the other.
- thelogos 13y ago
  You can find bulk powder but I find the taste unbearable. Rx aniracetam is far too expensive. I'm just waiting for the day when cortex gets their high-impact ampakine onto the market.
thelogos 13y ago
I was really surprised at the effect of aniracetam also. Usually most of these nootropics either do nothing or they jack up your heart-rate like any other stimulants. It's interesting to note that aniracetam is considered an ampakine, which lowers the threshold required for long-term potentiation. When I was taking aniracetam, the anxiolytic effect was too strong to be placebo. Almost as strong as alcohol. I was genuinely surprised. It makes activities like staring at leaves fluttering almost magical. Eventually I gave it up because this effect wore off and it was too expensive.

fatman 13y ago

What about Nicotine? Back in college and for a few years afterward, I used to put in a big fat dip (or chew) for all/late-nighters to help me buckle down, focus, and stay alert. I stopped for all the standard health reasons, but I find that caffeine is only about 2/3 as good.

oldstrangers 13y ago
Maybe you find caffeine 2/3 as good because it's not as addictive as nicotine.
- Alex3917 13y ago
  Nicotine isn't any more addictive than caffeine when you control for route of administration.
  - endianswap 13y ago
    Sure but GGP said he used chewing tobacco.
- driverdan 13y ago
  Caffeine is highly addictive. It only takes a few days of use for signs of addiction to show. Cessation is just easier than nicotine.
  - aestra 13y ago
    > It only takes a few days of use for signs of addiction to show. Eh... not for me. I can use caffeine for days and then not use it for days no problems at all. Of course probably because caffeine does absolutely nothing to me. I just like the hot beverage.
surement 13y ago
Using nicotine gum, you can avoid the typical health hazards of tobacco products. I personally found that caffeine wasn't comparable to nicotine, the former just keeps me awake, while the latter can keep me focused and motivated for several hours.

joe_computer 13y ago

Gwern also has a detailed personal examination of Nootropics.[0] 0: http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics

_delirium 13y ago

The definition of nootropics used here excludes them (too many adverse health effects), but I wonder how the drugs on this list compare to e.g. amphetamines in terms of pro-productivity effects.

my_other_acct 13y ago
Amphetamines are certainly more dangerous. They actually make you feel good/euphoric. Modafinil just makes you feel awake. I've heard people complain that amphetamines increase focus at the expense of creativity.
- api 13y ago
  Another related danger of amphetamines: because they make you feel good, they create a dopaminergic illusion of proficiency. Whether or not they are actually improving your proficiency can be difficult to judge.
ZirconCode 13y ago
Gwern has a great write-up on this: http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#adderall http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#adderall Of course it's only one data point, but a high quality one imo. edit: Just saw him linked below, should've read first -_-
thelogos 13y ago
The problem with amphetamine is, when they do work, the crash is horrible. When the crash goes away, it no longer does anything. So you have to up the dose and the cycle starts again. Some people use NMDA antagonist to reverse tolerance, but lets just say that they do a lot more than reverse your tolerance. In the end, most user end up with a permanent tolerance that no amount of drug vacation will lower. I'm not even mentioning here the whole issue of amphetamine disrupting vesicle pH gradient, causing dopamine leakage. Dopamine is very prone is auto-oxidation to quinone when they float free around in the cytosol.
- sizzle 13y ago

dominotw 13y ago

I used truBrain (Piracetam) religiously for a 1 month and felt zero effects whatsoever.

Havoc 13y ago

Interesting idea. Some pretty wild comments in the XLS file too. e.g. >In a tiny blind self trial I could easily tell this from placebo >I've forgotten what doses I tried. >Long lasting panic attack >Most vile substance I have tasted This guy wins though: >1.5 tsp brewed grounds, rectally [caffeine]

aestra 13y ago
>1.5 tsp brewed grounds, rectally [caffeine] Ah yes, coffee enemas, the pinnacle of pseudoscience - and dangerous at that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_enema http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_enema Some proponents of alternative medicine have claimed that coffee enemas have an anti-cancer effect by "detoxifying" metabolic products of tumors.[4] There is no medical scientific evidence to support any anti-cancer effect of coffee enemas.[2][5][6] Coffee enemas can cause numerous side effects, including infections, sepsis (including campylobacter sepsis), severe electrolyte imbalance, colitis, polymicrobial enteric septicemia, proctocolitis, salmonella, brain abscess, and heart failure.[4][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13] If the coffee is inserted too quickly or is too hot, it could cause internal burning[14] or rectal perforation.[15] Long term use of coffee enemas can lead to malabsorption of fat, fat-soluble vitamins, and calcium. The use of coffee enemas has led to several deaths as a result of severe electrolyte imbalance, hyponatremia, dehydration, pleural and pericardial effusions.[8][16] The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has ruled that study participants must be warned of the risk of death from coffee enemas in studies that use them.[17][18] http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ask-the-science-based-pharmacist-what-are-the-benefits-of-coffee-enemas/ http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ask-the-science-based-ph...

mistercow 13y ago

>One of the nootropics measured, choline bitartrate, has carefully regulated ability to cross the blood-brain barrier beyond a certain level, and so it would be surprising if it had direct and immediate cognitive effects. This isn't quite right. This is true of choline bitartrate itself, but IIRC it is fairly quickly metabolized into other forms of choline that can cross the BBB. I would say it's pretty likely that increasing choline intake would have a significant effect on cognition. Humans have been consuming large amounts of fish for much of our evolutionary history, compared to today's typical diet. Given the way choline is used by our brains, and the relative plethora we had available when our brains were evolving, it's hard to believe that we get as much as we can use in a modern diet.

shotgun 13y ago
90% of people aren't consuming enough Choline http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/21/6/LB46-c http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/21/6/LB46...

tokenadult 13y ago

Okay, I have read the fine blog post (which took a while to load). The article leads off by defining nootropics as "substances which purportedly improve mental functioning with relatively few side effects when used responsibility." The blog post author mentions a few small-n, limited duration studies, and then describes his voluntary-response survey methodology: "I asked people in the two largest online nootropics communities (that I know of), Reddit’s r/nootropics and Longecity’s Brain Health forum, to take a survey describing their use of 31 different substances. I got 162 responses." "Respondents were asked to rate their subjective experiences of different nootropics on a scale of zero (completely useless, did nothing) to ten (life-changing). Comments on Reddit suggest several people misunderstood the scale, but not much I can do about that at this point." So all the data here are voluntary-response data, with the known problem of response bias[1] and other defects about which I have an entire FAQ[2] I post on HN from time to time. Worse than that, all the data are self-report data,[3] which also have plenty of problems, even when gathered in a comprehensive survey with a representative sample of the general population, because of the risks of incorrect self-reports unless checked by other data sources that are objective.[4] The blog post author then gives a lengthy description, with pretty colored charts, of his hand-waving statistical analysis of these dubious voluntary reponse, self-report data. It would not be wise (that is, it would not be a sign of improved mental functioning) to take these conclusions seriously as a description of how nootropics work, or indeed if they work at all. The author would do well to study fundamental principles of statistics by reading the online articles "Advice to Mathematics Teachers on Evaluating Introductory Statistics Textbooks"[5] and "The Introductory Statistics Course: A Ptolemaic Curriculum?"[6] to wrap his mind around how strictly necessary it is to have a valid data-gathering plan before engaging in any statistical manipulation of the data. Garbage in, garbage out. More background on experiment design to think about while evaluating the blog post kindly submitted here can be found in the essay "Warning Signs in Experimental Design and Interpretation"[7] by Peter Norvig, LISP hacker and director of research at Google, on how to interpret scientific research. What might big-time convince me to try out a nootropic substance would be an objective demonstration that someone with typical abilities (say, someone who goes into online discussion with a known propensity to believe what's on Reddit without checking it) can become a person with thoughtful insight (say, someone like Peter Norvig) at adult age simply by ingesting the nootropic. On my part, I like to improve mental functioning with relatively few side effects as much as anybody here, and one way I attempt to do that in middle age is by reading thoughtful articles by careful scholars and then discussing those among the learned participants on Hacker News. I'd appreciate comments from any of you about how one could know, objectively and verifiably, that a nootropic substance really does people good (even if they don't feel that themselves). I especially invite comments from participants here who have a professional understanding of statistical studies in clinical trials of new medicines. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_bias [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2322237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2322237 [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-report_study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-report_study [4] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15528061 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15528061 http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/barker/supp/excerpt.pdf http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/barker/supp/excerpt.pdf [5] http://statland.org/MyPapers/MAAFIXED.PDF http://statland.org/MyPapers/MAAFIXED.PDF [6] http://escholarship.org/uc/item/6hb3k0nz http://escholarship.org/uc/item/6hb3k0nz [7] http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html

proggy123 13y ago

I've been taking modafinil for a while now (over a year). I initially started taking it to help with a massive workload at my job. I was a long-time software engineer at Google at the time. I was utterly burned out and couldn't retain my focus for more than 10-15 minutes- definitely not enough when you're writing c++ code and need to retain a huge amount of state in your head (header file definitions, pointer ownership, etc. etc.). But i wasn't in a situation where i could immediately take time off or change jobs/groups. So i started taking Modafinil to see if it would help me concentrate and get things done. The immediate benefit and the thing that i still love it for today is how focused it makes me. As a programmer, most of my day is just getting things typed out. Pure creative thinking is maybe 1 hour a day at best. Without modafinil, if people came and interrupted me, i would get distracted, surf the web and it could easily take me upto an hour to get my head back in the code (especially since i hated what i was doing). With Modafinil, i would just retain stuff and be able to get back to work immediately. I'm in my mid-30s. Even on a good day, without Modafinil, i could stay in flow for maybe an hour or so before i would get distracted and lose focus. On Modafinil, 3 hours is average, 4 hours happens sometimes. You know when you're fixing bugs in a big codebase and for each bug you kind of have to load up state in your head and think -oh yeah i need to change x,y,z here and a,b,c there and these tests 1,2,3 have to change and i should probably make sure foo and bar are still working. Well with modafinil i was able to think of that and keep all of it in my head for the 2-3 hours it would take me to type out a fix. Or you're reading a few bug reports and you are working on fixing one - you look at the file you're in and realize that while you're working in that file you could fix 2 or 3 other things or you could do a refactor - and you just do it without losing state in your head of where you are in the original bug. Modafinil let me do that- it was totally like a ram upgrade. (Or really like i wasn't burned out or was 25 again or something). So yeah my short-term recall also went up. Another example - at google we had lots of command line tools each with tons of options. It used to be a real mental effort for me to recall the 8-10 options i would have to pass on the command-line along with gigantic path and filenames to get something simple done. This isn't uncommon- some of the most popular internal webpages are commandline option references for the really common tools. And it was a huge distraction - to have to drop what you're doing to have to go to some webpage, scroll around or click find until you found some poorly documented option that maybe did what you wanted etc. With Modafinil, that was all just in my head for the whole day - enough so that at the end of the day i could make up shell scripts for the useful stuff, but during the day i could work really fast because i wasn't looking stuff up all the time. So yeah it did great things for me. But the bad news- i tried taking it every day - after a week, paranoia set in and mood swings. I would get extremely defensive about simple comments in code reviews. Typically i would take 200mg only in the morning so i could sleep at night- but if my schedule was bad and i went more than 3-4 days without sleep i would start having persistent hallucinations that lasted 10-15 seconds - not just corner of the eye stuff but talking to people who weren't there. Nowadays, i take it at most 100 mg at a time a maximum of twice a week. I really enjoy programming and i want to think i'm good at it so taking Modafinil felt a little like cheating with steroids or something. My current job is much easier than Google and I've been able to replace most of the positive effects of Moda by doing a ton more planning - e.g. i help my short term memory by writing copious comments, keeping a detailed log of exactly what i'm doing in org-mode, exercising good email discipline, writing code much more defensively so i don't actually keep a lot of state in my head etc. etc. I meditate every day even for 5 minutes just in case that will help with focus. A lot of this works really well. But if the shit hits the fan at work and I'm debugging blind in a bunch of crappy code i've never seen before, or my fragile ego requires I be the guy who is just faster than others and gets stuff done, that's when i still reach for Modafinil.

tripper 13y ago

"nootropics are substances which purportedly improve mental functioning with relatively few side effects when used responsibility." hello: LSD?

aestra 13y ago

Just to let everyone know, a very very rare but very serious side effect of modafinil is Stevens–Johnson syndrome and other potential life threating skin conditions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevens%E2%80%93Johnson_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevens%E2%80%93Johnson_syndrom... I am not trying to discourage use.

rdl 13y ago

I wish they'd included amphetamines (both ADHD medications like adderall/amphetamine and more serious things like desoxyn/methamphetamine), for comparison.

GrahamsNumber 13y ago

What kind/brand of modafinil? The indian-online-pharmacy deal doesn't seem too trustworthy to me

twobeard 13y ago

What makes people believe that their brains are not good enough just as they are? If you take nootropics you're messing with the most precious mechanism of your body. Are there any studies at all about the effects of long-term use on perfecly healthy young people?