12 ms·

What the Heck is Happening to Windows?

100 points by amaks 13y ago

fleshweasel 13y ago
Some hilarious Windows apologists on the comments over there.
dredmorbius 13y ago
For those thinking "oh, another piece of Microsoft bashing from some Apple / Google / Linux fan" (my own initial thought), look at the byline. Paul Thurrott's been covering Microsoft, almost always positively, for most of (if not more than) two decades. He's been labeled one of the "notorious Microsoft shills" by Daniel Eran Dilger (http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/01/18/dan-lyons-paul-thurrott-the-fake-and-the-phony/ http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/01/18/dan-lyons-paul-thur...) -- and that's not far from my own impressions of Thurrott based on some of his earlier Linux commentary. So -- yeah, the rats are, if not fleeing the ship, talking loudly about its soundness.
- bztzt 13y ago
  Thurrott has been bizarrely bipolar about Microsoft for a very long time. He is pro-MS "on average" but will careen wildly between unwarranted hyperbolic praise and unwarranted hyperbolic invective. Sometimes about the exact same things within the span of a week or two.
  - Legion 13y ago
    When your focus is sufficiently narrow, minor variations look like massive shifts, and perspective suffers. Thurrott seems to look at the computing world through a magnifying glass pointed squarely at MS, overreacting to every little shift and bump there, while never being able to see what's going on elsewhere particularly clearly.
  - vacri 13y ago
    It's even in this article. The first sentence is largely at odds with the tone of the rest of the article: "I defended windows 8 from the outset" then "it's been a massive cockup from the outset". There seems to be little self-reflection that all the other commentators were right, and Thurrot was wrong. The advice in the final paragraphs is just plain wrong as well. It should be "Don't use one OS GUI for two different user paradigms", not "abandon an entire market segment". Windows needs to go back to a traditional desktop, and Windows Mobile should continue on as is.
    - dredmorbius 13y ago
      Sounds to me as if he was defending the cockup and has since reconsidered / decided it's salvageable. The statements aren't necessarily contradictory.
    - r00fus 13y ago
      Given the rise of Nadella, I'm sure the new lockdown/home platform of Microsoft is going to be their cloud services. Following the Google/Apple model of having cloud profiles maintain/inform/manage (depending on home/gaming/work platforms) all the Microsoft devices seems the best approach. It's also what people want - they want unified logins (note: plural, Google!) so that they can get on with their work/personal/gaming needs and ensure that new devices that are platform compliant "just work" with minimal/no config.
jinushaun 13y ago
Windows 8 is everything wrong with Microsoft Corporation as an organization and how they go about developing product. I blame it on personas. When you have designers, PMs and devs creating products for imaginary people instead making something they'd be proud to use themselves, you're going to have problems. It's fine to develop products and features based on market research, user studies and metrics, but at the end of the day it should pass the "will I use it at home" test. Otherwise you'll have a company full of people that go home and use iPhones, Macs and Google Chrome. The only group at MS I see right now making products for real people is Azure. They're actually developing features to remove friction and make its customer more productive and happier—even if it means supporting Linux, Git and Ruby.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  Dog fooding is heavily encouraged within Microsoft and heavily practiced (source: Microsoft employee). Whatever you think is wrong or went wrong, its not because none of us used it. The criticism in the article, if I understand it correctly, is that Microsoft is trying to please too many people.
  - deleted 13y ago
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  - bambax 13y ago
    I currently work with Microsoft and what you're doing isn't really "dog fooding" as I understand it. Dog fooding should mean that people are making a product that they themselves would want to use, to scratch an itch they actually feel. What Microsoft does is "dog fooding at gunpoint" even if the result is poisoning oneself. Microsofties carry Windows phones around... and hate it. Openly. This isn't good.
    - ekianjo 13y ago
      > Microsofties carry Windows phones around... and hate it Is the management aware that they hate it ? Do they care?
overgard 13y ago
The problem with windows 8 is that from the start it wasn't designed to solve anyone's problems except Microsoft's. Windows 7 appeal was obvious: a modern version of windows that doesn't suck (ie: not vista). Windows 8 is supposed to fuse desktop and mobile, but, that is a problem for Microsoft, not their customers, outside of Redmond nobody needs that
- jlgaddis 13y ago
  Indeed, Microsoft seems to have this belief that we must have the same look and feel across our PCs, laptops, tablets, and phones. That is obviously the answer because, hey, it worked for Apple, right? There's only a handful of people I've spoken to that like Windows 8 and hardly anyone seems to share Microsoft's belief (above). Meanwhile, Canonical has came along and pretty much came to the same conclusion as Microsoft -- that a common experience across all of one's devices is the way forward. And, just like Microsoft, they apparently fail to realize that nobody wants this but them.
  - throwawaymsft 13y ago
    Microsoft has always had this dream that "one unified experience" is automatically the best answer. It's facile thinking. If they ran a restaurant they'd be trying to make a plate/bowl hybrid with a spork holder. So unified!
    - AmVess 13y ago
      I'm glad MS is building OSes. Imagine if they built cars; the brake pedal would be next to the brake lights.
    - jinushaun 13y ago
      I think MS is conflating unified with Apple's end-to-end approach. You can have a great end to end experience with two completely different UI. The key take away is interoperability, not looking the same.
  - sentenza 13y ago
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hiphopyo 13y ago
Does Windows 8.1 still suck with the Classic Shell enhancement? http://classicshell.net/ http://classicshell.net/
- deleted 13y ago
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hiphopyo 13y ago
Microsoft should start from scratch and make Windows2 Desktop, Windows2 Mobile and an OpenBSD-based Windows2 Server. Cram thousands of users into a hall using all sorts of versions and customizations of Windows along with A/B testing, heat maps etc. to figure out the fastest and easiest way to get a thing done. This way users won't have to spend hours trying to customize their Windows (read: disable all the new stuff). Also maybe throw a world-wide design contest to find the best suited man / woman to be responsible for a new Windows2 design. Like they say, "perfection is achieved, not when there's nothing left to add, but when there's nothing left to take away".
nameel_f 13y ago
If you look at the evolution of OS X, the changes from version to version are minimal. In give or take 13 years it changed relatively little. It matured over 13 years to become a (love it or hate it) polished OS. However each Windows version has been completely different from the last version. Each release XP->Vista->7->8 Microsoft demands a lot of adapting from both their power users and their 'casual' users. I've always felt that if they would have kept polishing XP or W7, diligently building on each version, they would've had a strong OS with a strong following. Maybe they should stop trying to do a "revolutionary redesign" every new release and just stick with one approach for a couple of years?
- jinushaun 13y ago
  I've been saying this for years now. All MS had to do was polish Windows 7 and people would upgrade. All they had to make was this to compete: http://mmminimal.com/windows-ui-concept-what-windows-8-should-look-like/ http://mmminimal.com/windows-ui-concept-what-windows-8-shoul... This is how they should've added Metro to Windows 7. I WOULD BUY THIS! Instead we got Windows 8 with its awful colors and squares.
- joosters 13y ago
  In a sense, they did keep polishing. It's just that they had another, much larger team adding shiny features that became roadblocks to existing users. I used to run Win7 in a form that looked very much like XP. The newer OS had many small improvements and refinements, not just the 'in-your-face' big ticket items. Windows 8 actually sounds the same - Microsoft published some interesting articles during development about lots of kernel-level changes, systems tweaks and so on (e.g. look at the windows process manager) The problem has always been the massive forced-down-your-throat changes that MS insist upon, and Windows 8 took that even further.
- vacri 13y ago
  7 was little different from Vista, to the point that some people were calling it Vista Service Pack 2. And the basic workflow between XP and Vista was pretty similar - they're both traditional desktops (though somehow vista takes 20GB to do what XP does in 600MB). Maybe they should stop trying to do a "revolutionary redesign" every new release and just stick with one approach for a couple of years? It's every second major release, not every release - 3.1 was alright; 95 big redesign, sucked; 98 serviceable; 2000 wasn't ready for primetime, but the redesign was adopting NT into the desktop OS; XP built on that to became the world's default OS; vista sucked; win7 was solid; win8 sucks; win9... ?
higherpurpose 13y ago
Problem #1, where everything is starting to break down: Microsoft trying to put "Windows on everything". That may not be a huge problem if it was only the core base (although needing 16GB of space, something that's still the default for "high-end mobile devices" today, just for Windows alone, still sucks), but it gets much worse when they also want to have the "same UI on everything", which just doesn't work and never has. Even on the web, we still get to talk about "responsive design", because the same UI doesn't work on mobile devices, and it needs to be adapted for that form factor. Problem #2: Having basically 2 operating systems in one, and forcing the user to switch from one to the other, by nagging him with all sorts of bad UX elements (charms on the desktop has always been a terrible idea to me, for example, and the UI looks completely out of place, too). Problem #3: Price. I don't know if they're "feeling" this yet or not, but I think they are. If Windows for tablets cost $90 to license, then Windows tablets are simply not competitive from the get go. Yes, you may see some $300 Windows tablet, but it usually has much worse specs and quality than a $300 Android tablet. As I said, not competitive. This may be the reason why Microsoft may exist the consumer market eventually (3-5 years from now), and focus on enterprise, where they have much more lock-in and it's a lot more profitable/unit.
- vacri 13y ago
  although needing 16GB of space, something that's still the default for "high-end mobile devices" today, just for Windows alone, still sucks Not to mention virtual machines. Backing up and transferring around virtual machine images of vista and beyond really sucks hard. I know one ops guy who is keeping his XP install simply because it's base install size is about 3% the size of Vista an onward; much better for VMs.
- bitwize 13y ago
  I recently bought a Windows 8.1 tablet for about $250. Specs-wise it's a lot better than my 2013 Nexus 7. 2 GiB RAM, a quad-core Atom, and 64 GiB of onboard storage. And it runs full Windows. Hell, I put VS on it and started writing C# apps with it. It's pretty nice. The two different GUIS are pretty jarring if you're running a desktop PC, but they make perfect sense with a touchscreen laptop or tablet. The tablet game is about to change. Android may find itself crowded out of the mobile computer space.
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alexcason 13y ago
While I agree that the Windows team needs a singular vision about what they want their product to be, the advice given by the author is starkly reminiscent of the strategy adopted by Blackberry when they realised consumers weren't interested in using their products any more. For Microsoft to abandon the consumer market and solely focus on a sub-section of 'doers' would be to set in motion an unstoppable slide into obscurity, as it did with Blackberry. Increasingly people only have one device and they're not going to choose a product which is only good for 50% of what they want. This mythical group of people who only care about using products for business just doesn't exist. What they need to do is to make the product better so that people in general like using it again. It's that simple.
- jinushaun 13y ago
  Even Jobs himself used the car/truck analogy to compare OS X to iOS. I think he's right. These are separate products. One is for work, the other one is more general purpose. There will always be more cars than trucks, but there will always be a need for trucks. You're not going to be hauling manure or towing a boat in a car. The question for MS is will they be OK with selling trucks in a car world? Will they be satisfied with how much money they would make selling only trucks to farmers and construction companies? I say MS needs to make cars and trucks. They need to make the best trucks out there without compromises. The best cars without compromises. Not this weird car/truck hybrid.
  - alexcason 13y ago
    I agree. As with most bad products and failing companies, the problem here is focus. Microsoft need to have a vision about what products they want to create and go about making them with a singular focus on producing something which customers will love. It's not about abandoning consumer software or business software, it's about making something great, regardless of it's purpose.
- r00fus 13y ago
  > What they need to do is to make the product better so that people in general like using it again. It's that simple. Problem is that it's not so simple. They need to decide from which direction to make it "better", then drive that as a distinguishing factor. This can't be done if there isn't leadership from the top driving that priority incessantly (and demanding good reasons for exceptions). E.g.: make an SSH built-in client so I don't have to install f*ing putty on every Win install to get decent work done. The cloud is here, and SSH is a core part of it's workings. Embrace and extend if you have to, but make it a native experience.
beloch 13y ago
"Windows was designed by a committee. The Mac, by contrast, often feels like it was designed by a single person." The Mac was apparently designed by a person I can't freakin' stand. I recently spent a year with an OSX laptop, and it was a merciful relief when I was finally able to get the hell out of iLand. My first love is KDE because it bows to my will like nothing else, as a good window-manager/OS should. Win8 is also pretty malleable, even though it's not so good for those lacking the chops to bend it to their will. OSX, by comparison, is a constant freakin' PITA if you don't happen to be the "single person" it was designed by and for. This might be a bit of a rant but I'm sick of people ragging on Windows for its default settings. Windows is eminently customizable. If you aren't a complete n00b you can bend Windows to suit yourself far more easily than OSX. KDE absolutely spanks them both, but still... I would wholeheartedly recommend OSX or iOS to my grandmother, because she's not so good at customizing things. This blog is aimed at people who probably aren't running their OS on 99% default settings. Customizability matters, and Windows fucking owns OSX in that respect.
- jinushaun 13y ago
  Developers live in Terminal and text editors, and regular people don't care about customization? There's a reason why Linux on the desktop didn't pan out. People don't want choice. They want to be told what to do and get on with their life.
  - keithpeter 13y ago
    Hence the Gnome desktop's new direction. I actually quite like it (on good hardware with fully functional graphics drivers) but I know that some find the reduction in configuration and removal of options hard.
  - Flow 13y ago
    > They want to be told what to do. Why degrade people like that? You sound like those hard-core Android fanbois that never misses a chance to tell you they think iPhone users are sheep. :-( No, they want the software and options to be thought through before released. Why have 20 options for 100% of the users, when 16 good defaults and 4 options is the better way for 90+% of the users? In OS X, I bet most of those 16 options can be changed using a terminal command.
Aloha 13y ago
Quote from the linked comments. "The problem is that Microsoft is like a broken record. No matter what the question is their answer is always the same. Windows. Need a phone OS? - Windows Need a Tablet OS? - Windows Need a Desktop OS? - Windows Need a Server OS? - Windows Windows, Windows, Windows. It's supposed to be all things to all people. And it just doesn't work anymore. You're right, on the desktop nothing beats Windows. Even on the Server Windows is fine. But when they try to force Windows on to phones and tablets everything starts to fall apart. It isn't suited for mobile devices. It's too big, to bloated for mobile. And it's interface is terrible for mobile, but great for the desktop. So they come out with a new interface that's fine for phones but sucks on a desktop. JUST STOP THE INSANITY. You are exactly right. Focus Windows on productivity and the corporate market. If Microsoft feels that they have to get into mobile fine, come out with a mobile OS. But don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Leave the damn desktop alone." In short, Windows 8 solved no real pressing problems for users - it solved - or was supposed to solve problems for Microsoft - which is to say a lack of penetration in what all the kids these days (and pundits) say is the environment of the future - mobile. Microsoft has, and will have the enterprise and most of the desktop market locked up for the near future - for all the apps out there for whichever mobile platform, they pale in software for PC and the overall power and usability of the traditional desktop/laptop computer paradigm - and likely will for the foreseeable future.
Mikeb85 13y ago
I actually like Windows 8 more than any other version. I'll never use it full time (Linux user, right now SUSE with Gnome Shell) for reasons that have nothing to do with its design, but I really like the Metro interface. Most of the naysayers are simply unwilling to accept change, the same naysayers that whine about modern Linux DEs.
- nzonbi 13y ago
  Instead of relying in random comments, It would be great to see in an actual poll, how many people hate the new Windows 8 UI. In my personal opinion, the new UI is mostly fantastic. Perhaps I find it so, because I have strong visual memory, and usually adapt to new UIs in minutes. If it were available for Linux, I would consider it for my day to day use. It is unfortunate, how it seems that so many people resist to UI advances. Even more so, on a place like HN. This kind of stubborn rejection seems pulled from something like a geeksquad forum. Another example is Ubuntu, which has collected massive hate, on considerable less groundbreaking UI changes.
  - Mikeb85 13y ago
    Yup. Never understood the Ubuntu Unity hate either. While I prefer Gnome Shell, Unity is still an improvement on Gnome 2, and has some very interesting features of its own (like lenses and the HUD).
    - dragontamer 13y ago
      I hate the new Gnome, but am more or less pleased with Win8 Metro. Its the technicals of Win8 Metro that I can't stand however (sideloading licenses, the locked-down nature, etc. etc.)
xname 13y ago
It's not just Windows. Microsoft has a virus design team. Look what they did to visual studio. The new visual studio flat design (from 2012) is really awful. All caps in menu. No color in icons. Everybody hates those changes. Don't know what they are thinking!
- stinos 13y ago
  Well at least the VS desgin team has to listen when there's enough complaining: Visual Studio 2013 has been available for a while and it fixes all problems you list by undoing those changes.
  - josteink 13y ago
    Visual Studio 2013 has been available for a while and it fixes all problems you list by undoing those changes. That's not entirely true. Some things fixed, while others are not. (CAPSY MENUS, I'm looking at you)
    - DrJokepu 13y ago
      Of course, everything in a Microsoft product can be customised by changing or adding a registry key somewhere. The all-caps menus in Visual Studio are no exception.
      - gtirloni 13y ago
        http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17413001/disable-all-caps-menu-items-in-visual-studio-2013 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17413001/disable-all-caps...
ekurutepe 13y ago
Interesting and apt use of Steve Jobs's truck vs. car analogy at the end: "Maybe Windows needs to be more like GMC, the part of GM that only makes trucks (and truck-based SUVs). After all, while many people choose to use a truck for basic transportation, they're really designed and optimized for work. You know, as should be Windows."
- jinushaun 13y ago
  Don't forget that Apple makes cars and trucks, and they keep them separate.
mistercow 13y ago
I thought that it was pretty well established that Windows is in an alternating cycle of good and bad versions. Everyone freaks out during the bad part of that cycle, as Microsoft takes a bunch of bold risks, many of which don't really work out, and then a few years later they prune many of the bad decisions and release something reasonably solid. (Man, it feels weird leaving this comment as a Linux user and reformed Mac zealot)
- jinushaun 13y ago
  I think this doctor has run out of regenerations. Not the same world as before.
  - amaks 13y ago
    I think Windows 9 (or whatever it's going to be called) will be a complete pull back into the classic desktop. By the time it ships there will be Modern UI only OS hybrid built with Office for the Modern UI finally caught up. They can all have the same underlying base OS (whatever it's going to be called) with different shells on top. But, I'm not sure how programming model is going to look like, unless they allow classic desktop Windows to run apps built for Modern UI in windowed mode (which seems to be the direction they are heading towards).
yuetuf 13y ago
Posting this with a throwaway as I don't want it to be associated with my named account. Thurrott is full of shit. I call for him to step down and shut down winsupersite and to generally shut up. He's not a windows user -- merely a critic. This is about spinning hits than a valid critique of windows. All he is doing is damaging the company and the industry by recycling this shit over and over again. There are those of us who use windows both for our own personal use and business use. It suits us well simply because there is nothing else with the broad scope that Microsoft offer. Windows 8, whilst not a great success, is exactly what people asked for. The tech news sites spewed how the future was tablets and closed ecosystems powered by app models ao they dived into the consumer market with exactly what people expected. Unfortunately they discovered that the consumer market (which didn't really exist) is just a bunch of fashionista journos' wet dreams and fanboys. Now I'm a Unix guy who saw exactly the same thing happen in the 1990s when Microsoft kicked in the Unix vendors. However they did it through actually providing products people wanted and providing long support lifecycles rater than disposable trinkets and rapid change. Give them a break and look at your 2 year life throwaway trinket phone and tell me that's what you want for the future? That's what you asked for, that's what you got.
- poolpool 13y ago
  Thurrott is one of the biggest fanboys on the internet behind the crackberry forums. For him to backpedal like this maybe says theres something seriously wrong with the execution of Windows 8?
  - gtirloni 13y ago
    If you don't trust his opinions on MS because his is obviously not rational when it comes to them (often biased in Microsoft's favor), why would you trust it when he abruptly changes them? That's the problem with fanboys and people obsessed with these things, they tend to obsess with other things as well. I usually read them with my filters set on maximum level.
keithpeter 13y ago
"...That's mostly business users, but even when you look at the consumers who will use Windows, that usage is almost entirely productivity related. Windows should focus on that. On getting work done. On an audience of doers. Job one should be productivity." Won't that imply support for legacy applications (which Windows is good at) going back some years? Hence maintenance of features required by those applications?
pygy_ 13y ago
A crazy misfeature of windows 8.1 is that the Skype user is tied to the Windows user account. You want to use Skype on someone else's PC? No problem, just create a new Windows user (and watch Windows crash twice in the process while the person you're supposed to call is waiting).
- peroo 13y ago
  Or you can just install Skype for Windows Desktop. Metro makes perfect sense when you consider a tablet formfactor like Surface, it just shouldn't be used for regular computers, which is where they screwed ujp.
  - sixbrx 13y ago
    Which is a bit confusing when the person reasonably thinks they already have "Skype", which is running already on their "Desktop" (computer).
  - pygy_ 13y ago
    Thanks, I didn't know that there were several versions. I'll install it. Metro and explorer are completely different worlds. There are even two configurations systems and I've yet to find how to reach the standard control panel without using search.
    - ygra 13y ago
      Win+X, P or open Explorer at "Computer". There is a big "Open Control Panel" button in the ribbon (reachable via Alt+C, C). That being said, search brings me exactly where I want, while the control panel is not my end goal, so I didn't have to open it in quite a while (both on Win 8 and Win 7).
- deleted 13y ago
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bitwize 13y ago
Microsoft is in the same place with Windows 8.x that it was with Windows 2.x: trying to migrate its userbase onto a new computing paradigm (GUI/mobile touch apps) while still showing support for the old paradigm (DOS/traditional GUI). Yes, it's going to be a force fit. In part because the paradigms are so different, and in part because it's Microsoft and they don't know how to do anything with any grace, at least at first. But eventually they'll get it kinda-sorta right. And when they do, they'll crush the competition. Especially when tablets and convertibles start to supplant traditional laptops as daily driver devices. Apple probably hasn't much to fear. The real loser here is Android. A light, cheap, powerful device that can run full Windows like the Dell Venue 8 Pro has insane added value above the equivalent Android device.
- netcan 13y ago
  I think you're right. But that doesn't translate (IMO) lead to MS crushing competition. They have a lot of assets. Important software. Decades of user experience. Several war chests. An institutional ability to grind out a success. etc. etc. But, "computers" has become a big industry. It seems strange to say something so obvious, but the number of "computers" in use, the importance of those computers and the amount of money businesses and individuals spend on them is still growing and growing. I don't think MS can keep ahold of "market share" when the market gets to that size. Market share has always been MS' biggest weapon. The difference between 95% and 80% is 3X as much competition, even if it is nothing in total sales. Imagine an incumbent (say Amazon, Samsung, Google or whatever) company launching a new product that runs something inspired by Chrome OS & iOS on $250 hardware that can replace windows laptops for 10%-20% home users. That sounds a lot more plausible today than it did 10 years ago. 6-7 years ago Vista came out. It had issues and didn't run well on the low end hardware retailers were selling. They probably lost a percent or two of market share to Apple/OSX. Apple never really went after the low margin low-middle end. 6-7 years from now that could be 10%-20% to an unexpected incumbent. The markets important to MS are still growing and expanding so I don't think they are in trouble. They could lose market share and still grow absolute sales. tablets and convertibles starting to supplant traditional laptops as daily driver devices is an opening for new players.
- leoedin 13y ago
hetman 13y ago
I just don't understand what the fuss is about. I'm primarily a Windows user (but I run Linux on some of my devices as well). I'm also tend to be quite particular about my UIs getting things right. Saying all that, I've felt next to zero impact in moving from Windows 7 to Windows 8.1. Windows 8.1 feels a bit snappier. Some options have been moved around a bit. That's about it. I just don't understand all the polemicising. Especially with statements like: "The specifics of what's wrong in Windows 8 don't really matter". They matter to me, because after reading all these articles about how terrible Windows 8 is, I still can't figure out what those specifics are! I would love to be enlightened about what I've been missing (or how I've been using Windows 8 wrong).
- yaeger 13y ago
  Want one example? Fine. It's Fuck Ugly. There. There's your reason. You said yourself you are fickle about your UI of choice. And yet you can't see how many people would be just like you but unlike you they can't stand Win8 UI? It's just like a car, the design matters about as much as the performance of the vehicle. Sure, some people look at cars as tools and don't care what they look like as long as they have 4 wheels and can get them from a to b. But for many people, the car they buy has to have a great design. It is about as much about lifestyle as function. And the same goes for a desktop OS. And I for one find the Metro Tile fest that is Windows 8 to be just that. Fuck Ugly. No other way to sugar coat it. And that isn't just the Metro side. Nope, also the desktop with its sharp 90 degree corners and flat 8 Bit color pallet window blinds looks horrible. Like a complete step backwards looking at how the desktop used to look under Win7. And on Win7 you could even change the themes if you wanted to something more to your liking. Good luck trying to do that on Win8. So, add that to the fact that Win7 filled a need the consumers had and Win8 just filled a need that Microsoft had and you have ample reasons why Win8 is where it is today. Even if there are people like you who apparently can't imagine other people might have a different take on what a great UI should look like.
  - hetman 13y ago
    Sounds like you're really fishing for a reason to hate it if that's all you can come up with. Swearing for dramatic effect doesn't sure up an argument as much as you think it does.
hackaflocka 13y ago
At least he's not late to the party. /s
nelmaven 13y ago
Microsoft should take Windows and split it in two: Desktop and Tablet. Because it's just too weird right now. Windows 7 is a great OS and they could refine it to be even better. On the Tablet side they should just pick the good pieces of Windows 8 and go from there. Do one thing at a time and do it well Microsoft!

100 points by amaks 13y ago

Some hilarious Windows apologists on the comments over there.

For those thinking "oh, another piece of Microsoft bashing from some Apple / Google / Linux fan" (my own initial thought), look at the byline. Paul Thurrott's been covering Microsoft, almost always positively, for most of (if not more than) two decades. He's been labeled one of the "notorious Microsoft shills" by Daniel Eran Dilger (http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/01/18/dan-lyons-paul-thurrott-the-fake-and-the-phony/ http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/01/18/dan-lyons-paul-thur...) -- and that's not far from my own impressions of Thurrott based on some of his earlier Linux commentary. So -- yeah, the rats are, if not fleeing the ship, talking loudly about its soundness.

bztzt 13y ago
Thurrott has been bizarrely bipolar about Microsoft for a very long time. He is pro-MS "on average" but will careen wildly between unwarranted hyperbolic praise and unwarranted hyperbolic invective. Sometimes about the exact same things within the span of a week or two.
- Legion 13y ago
  When your focus is sufficiently narrow, minor variations look like massive shifts, and perspective suffers. Thurrott seems to look at the computing world through a magnifying glass pointed squarely at MS, overreacting to every little shift and bump there, while never being able to see what's going on elsewhere particularly clearly.
- vacri 13y ago
  It's even in this article. The first sentence is largely at odds with the tone of the rest of the article: "I defended windows 8 from the outset" then "it's been a massive cockup from the outset". There seems to be little self-reflection that all the other commentators were right, and Thurrot was wrong. The advice in the final paragraphs is just plain wrong as well. It should be "Don't use one OS GUI for two different user paradigms", not "abandon an entire market segment". Windows needs to go back to a traditional desktop, and Windows Mobile should continue on as is.
  - dredmorbius 13y ago
    Sounds to me as if he was defending the cockup and has since reconsidered / decided it's salvageable. The statements aren't necessarily contradictory.
  - r00fus 13y ago
    Given the rise of Nadella, I'm sure the new lockdown/home platform of Microsoft is going to be their cloud services. Following the Google/Apple model of having cloud profiles maintain/inform/manage (depending on home/gaming/work platforms) all the Microsoft devices seems the best approach. It's also what people want - they want unified logins (note: plural, Google!) so that they can get on with their work/personal/gaming needs and ensure that new devices that are platform compliant "just work" with minimal/no config.

jinushaun 13y ago

Windows 8 is everything wrong with Microsoft Corporation as an organization and how they go about developing product. I blame it on personas. When you have designers, PMs and devs creating products for imaginary people instead making something they'd be proud to use themselves, you're going to have problems. It's fine to develop products and features based on market research, user studies and metrics, but at the end of the day it should pass the "will I use it at home" test. Otherwise you'll have a company full of people that go home and use iPhones, Macs and Google Chrome. The only group at MS I see right now making products for real people is Azure. They're actually developing features to remove friction and make its customer more productive and happier—even if it means supporting Linux, Git and Ruby.

seanmcdirmid 13y ago
Dog fooding is heavily encouraged within Microsoft and heavily practiced (source: Microsoft employee). Whatever you think is wrong or went wrong, its not because none of us used it. The criticism in the article, if I understand it correctly, is that Microsoft is trying to please too many people.
- deleted 13y ago
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- bambax 13y ago
  I currently work with Microsoft and what you're doing isn't really "dog fooding" as I understand it. Dog fooding should mean that people are making a product that they themselves would want to use, to scratch an itch they actually feel. What Microsoft does is "dog fooding at gunpoint" even if the result is poisoning oneself. Microsofties carry Windows phones around... and hate it. Openly. This isn't good.
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    > Microsofties carry Windows phones around... and hate it Is the management aware that they hate it ? Do they care?

overgard 13y ago

The problem with windows 8 is that from the start it wasn't designed to solve anyone's problems except Microsoft's. Windows 7 appeal was obvious: a modern version of windows that doesn't suck (ie: not vista). Windows 8 is supposed to fuse desktop and mobile, but, that is a problem for Microsoft, not their customers, outside of Redmond nobody needs that

jlgaddis 13y ago
Indeed, Microsoft seems to have this belief that we must have the same look and feel across our PCs, laptops, tablets, and phones. That is obviously the answer because, hey, it worked for Apple, right? There's only a handful of people I've spoken to that like Windows 8 and hardly anyone seems to share Microsoft's belief (above). Meanwhile, Canonical has came along and pretty much came to the same conclusion as Microsoft -- that a common experience across all of one's devices is the way forward. And, just like Microsoft, they apparently fail to realize that nobody wants this but them.
- throwawaymsft 13y ago
  Microsoft has always had this dream that "one unified experience" is automatically the best answer. It's facile thinking. If they ran a restaurant they'd be trying to make a plate/bowl hybrid with a spork holder. So unified!
  - AmVess 13y ago
    I'm glad MS is building OSes. Imagine if they built cars; the brake pedal would be next to the brake lights.
  - jinushaun 13y ago
    I think MS is conflating unified with Apple's end-to-end approach. You can have a great end to end experience with two completely different UI. The key take away is interoperability, not looking the same.
- sentenza 13y ago

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hiphopyo 13y ago

Does Windows 8.1 still suck with the Classic Shell enhancement? http://classicshell.net/ http://classicshell.net/

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hiphopyo 13y ago

Microsoft should start from scratch and make Windows2 Desktop, Windows2 Mobile and an OpenBSD-based Windows2 Server. Cram thousands of users into a hall using all sorts of versions and customizations of Windows along with A/B testing, heat maps etc. to figure out the fastest and easiest way to get a thing done. This way users won't have to spend hours trying to customize their Windows (read: disable all the new stuff). Also maybe throw a world-wide design contest to find the best suited man / woman to be responsible for a new Windows2 design. Like they say, "perfection is achieved, not when there's nothing left to add, but when there's nothing left to take away".

nameel_f 13y ago

If you look at the evolution of OS X, the changes from version to version are minimal. In give or take 13 years it changed relatively little. It matured over 13 years to become a (love it or hate it) polished OS. However each Windows version has been completely different from the last version. Each release XP->Vista->7->8 Microsoft demands a lot of adapting from both their power users and their 'casual' users. I've always felt that if they would have kept polishing XP or W7, diligently building on each version, they would've had a strong OS with a strong following. Maybe they should stop trying to do a "revolutionary redesign" every new release and just stick with one approach for a couple of years?

jinushaun 13y ago
I've been saying this for years now. All MS had to do was polish Windows 7 and people would upgrade. All they had to make was this to compete: http://mmminimal.com/windows-ui-concept-what-windows-8-should-look-like/ http://mmminimal.com/windows-ui-concept-what-windows-8-shoul... This is how they should've added Metro to Windows 7. I WOULD BUY THIS! Instead we got Windows 8 with its awful colors and squares.
joosters 13y ago
In a sense, they did keep polishing. It's just that they had another, much larger team adding shiny features that became roadblocks to existing users. I used to run Win7 in a form that looked very much like XP. The newer OS had many small improvements and refinements, not just the 'in-your-face' big ticket items. Windows 8 actually sounds the same - Microsoft published some interesting articles during development about lots of kernel-level changes, systems tweaks and so on (e.g. look at the windows process manager) The problem has always been the massive forced-down-your-throat changes that MS insist upon, and Windows 8 took that even further.
vacri 13y ago
7 was little different from Vista, to the point that some people were calling it Vista Service Pack 2. And the basic workflow between XP and Vista was pretty similar - they're both traditional desktops (though somehow vista takes 20GB to do what XP does in 600MB). Maybe they should stop trying to do a "revolutionary redesign" every new release and just stick with one approach for a couple of years? It's every second major release, not every release - 3.1 was alright; 95 big redesign, sucked; 98 serviceable; 2000 wasn't ready for primetime, but the redesign was adopting NT into the desktop OS; XP built on that to became the world's default OS; vista sucked; win7 was solid; win8 sucks; win9... ?

higherpurpose 13y ago

Problem #1, where everything is starting to break down: Microsoft trying to put "Windows on everything". That may not be a huge problem if it was only the core base (although needing 16GB of space, something that's still the default for "high-end mobile devices" today, just for Windows alone, still sucks), but it gets much worse when they also want to have the "same UI on everything", which just doesn't work and never has. Even on the web, we still get to talk about "responsive design", because the same UI doesn't work on mobile devices, and it needs to be adapted for that form factor. Problem #2: Having basically 2 operating systems in one, and forcing the user to switch from one to the other, by nagging him with all sorts of bad UX elements (charms on the desktop has always been a terrible idea to me, for example, and the UI looks completely out of place, too). Problem #3: Price. I don't know if they're "feeling" this yet or not, but I think they are. If Windows for tablets cost $90 to license, then Windows tablets are simply not competitive from the get go. Yes, you may see some $300 Windows tablet, but it usually has much worse specs and quality than a $300 Android tablet. As I said, not competitive. This may be the reason why Microsoft may exist the consumer market eventually (3-5 years from now), and focus on enterprise, where they have much more lock-in and it's a lot more profitable/unit.

vacri 13y ago
although needing 16GB of space, something that's still the default for "high-end mobile devices" today, just for Windows alone, still sucks Not to mention virtual machines. Backing up and transferring around virtual machine images of vista and beyond really sucks hard. I know one ops guy who is keeping his XP install simply because it's base install size is about 3% the size of Vista an onward; much better for VMs.
bitwize 13y ago
I recently bought a Windows 8.1 tablet for about $250. Specs-wise it's a lot better than my 2013 Nexus 7. 2 GiB RAM, a quad-core Atom, and 64 GiB of onboard storage. And it runs full Windows. Hell, I put VS on it and started writing C# apps with it. It's pretty nice. The two different GUIS are pretty jarring if you're running a desktop PC, but they make perfect sense with a touchscreen laptop or tablet. The tablet game is about to change. Android may find itself crowded out of the mobile computer space.

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alexcason 13y ago

While I agree that the Windows team needs a singular vision about what they want their product to be, the advice given by the author is starkly reminiscent of the strategy adopted by Blackberry when they realised consumers weren't interested in using their products any more. For Microsoft to abandon the consumer market and solely focus on a sub-section of 'doers' would be to set in motion an unstoppable slide into obscurity, as it did with Blackberry. Increasingly people only have one device and they're not going to choose a product which is only good for 50% of what they want. This mythical group of people who only care about using products for business just doesn't exist. What they need to do is to make the product better so that people in general like using it again. It's that simple.

jinushaun 13y ago
Even Jobs himself used the car/truck analogy to compare OS X to iOS. I think he's right. These are separate products. One is for work, the other one is more general purpose. There will always be more cars than trucks, but there will always be a need for trucks. You're not going to be hauling manure or towing a boat in a car. The question for MS is will they be OK with selling trucks in a car world? Will they be satisfied with how much money they would make selling only trucks to farmers and construction companies? I say MS needs to make cars and trucks. They need to make the best trucks out there without compromises. The best cars without compromises. Not this weird car/truck hybrid.
- alexcason 13y ago
  I agree. As with most bad products and failing companies, the problem here is focus. Microsoft need to have a vision about what products they want to create and go about making them with a singular focus on producing something which customers will love. It's not about abandoning consumer software or business software, it's about making something great, regardless of it's purpose.
r00fus 13y ago
> What they need to do is to make the product better so that people in general like using it again. It's that simple. Problem is that it's not so simple. They need to decide from which direction to make it "better", then drive that as a distinguishing factor. This can't be done if there isn't leadership from the top driving that priority incessantly (and demanding good reasons for exceptions). E.g.: make an SSH built-in client so I don't have to install f*ing putty on every Win install to get decent work done. The cloud is here, and SSH is a core part of it's workings. Embrace and extend if you have to, but make it a native experience.

beloch 13y ago

"Windows was designed by a committee. The Mac, by contrast, often feels like it was designed by a single person." The Mac was apparently designed by a person I can't freakin' stand. I recently spent a year with an OSX laptop, and it was a merciful relief when I was finally able to get the hell out of iLand. My first love is KDE because it bows to my will like nothing else, as a good window-manager/OS should. Win8 is also pretty malleable, even though it's not so good for those lacking the chops to bend it to their will. OSX, by comparison, is a constant freakin' PITA if you don't happen to be the "single person" it was designed by and for. This might be a bit of a rant but I'm sick of people ragging on Windows for its default settings. Windows is eminently customizable. If you aren't a complete n00b you can bend Windows to suit yourself far more easily than OSX. KDE absolutely spanks them both, but still... I would wholeheartedly recommend OSX or iOS to my grandmother, because she's not so good at customizing things. This blog is aimed at people who probably aren't running their OS on 99% default settings. Customizability matters, and Windows fucking owns OSX in that respect.

jinushaun 13y ago
Developers live in Terminal and text editors, and regular people don't care about customization? There's a reason why Linux on the desktop didn't pan out. People don't want choice. They want to be told what to do and get on with their life.
- keithpeter 13y ago
  Hence the Gnome desktop's new direction. I actually quite like it (on good hardware with fully functional graphics drivers) but I know that some find the reduction in configuration and removal of options hard.
- Flow 13y ago
  > They want to be told what to do. Why degrade people like that? You sound like those hard-core Android fanbois that never misses a chance to tell you they think iPhone users are sheep. :-( No, they want the software and options to be thought through before released. Why have 20 options for 100% of the users, when 16 good defaults and 4 options is the better way for 90+% of the users? In OS X, I bet most of those 16 options can be changed using a terminal command.

Aloha 13y ago

Quote from the linked comments. "The problem is that Microsoft is like a broken record. No matter what the question is their answer is always the same. Windows. Need a phone OS? - Windows Need a Tablet OS? - Windows Need a Desktop OS? - Windows Need a Server OS? - Windows Windows, Windows, Windows. It's supposed to be all things to all people. And it just doesn't work anymore. You're right, on the desktop nothing beats Windows. Even on the Server Windows is fine. But when they try to force Windows on to phones and tablets everything starts to fall apart. It isn't suited for mobile devices. It's too big, to bloated for mobile. And it's interface is terrible for mobile, but great for the desktop. So they come out with a new interface that's fine for phones but sucks on a desktop. JUST STOP THE INSANITY. You are exactly right. Focus Windows on productivity and the corporate market. If Microsoft feels that they have to get into mobile fine, come out with a mobile OS. But don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Leave the damn desktop alone." In short, Windows 8 solved no real pressing problems for users - it solved - or was supposed to solve problems for Microsoft - which is to say a lack of penetration in what all the kids these days (and pundits) say is the environment of the future - mobile. Microsoft has, and will have the enterprise and most of the desktop market locked up for the near future - for all the apps out there for whichever mobile platform, they pale in software for PC and the overall power and usability of the traditional desktop/laptop computer paradigm - and likely will for the foreseeable future.

Mikeb85 13y ago

I actually like Windows 8 more than any other version. I'll never use it full time (Linux user, right now SUSE with Gnome Shell) for reasons that have nothing to do with its design, but I really like the Metro interface. Most of the naysayers are simply unwilling to accept change, the same naysayers that whine about modern Linux DEs.

nzonbi 13y ago
Instead of relying in random comments, It would be great to see in an actual poll, how many people hate the new Windows 8 UI. In my personal opinion, the new UI is mostly fantastic. Perhaps I find it so, because I have strong visual memory, and usually adapt to new UIs in minutes. If it were available for Linux, I would consider it for my day to day use. It is unfortunate, how it seems that so many people resist to UI advances. Even more so, on a place like HN. This kind of stubborn rejection seems pulled from something like a geeksquad forum. Another example is Ubuntu, which has collected massive hate, on considerable less groundbreaking UI changes.
- Mikeb85 13y ago
  Yup. Never understood the Ubuntu Unity hate either. While I prefer Gnome Shell, Unity is still an improvement on Gnome 2, and has some very interesting features of its own (like lenses and the HUD).
  - dragontamer 13y ago
    I hate the new Gnome, but am more or less pleased with Win8 Metro. Its the technicals of Win8 Metro that I can't stand however (sideloading licenses, the locked-down nature, etc. etc.)

xname 13y ago

It's not just Windows. Microsoft has a virus design team. Look what they did to visual studio. The new visual studio flat design (from 2012) is really awful. All caps in menu. No color in icons. Everybody hates those changes. Don't know what they are thinking!

stinos 13y ago
Well at least the VS desgin team has to listen when there's enough complaining: Visual Studio 2013 has been available for a while and it fixes all problems you list by undoing those changes.
- josteink 13y ago
  Visual Studio 2013 has been available for a while and it fixes all problems you list by undoing those changes. That's not entirely true. Some things fixed, while others are not. (CAPSY MENUS, I'm looking at you)
  - DrJokepu 13y ago
    Of course, everything in a Microsoft product can be customised by changing or adding a registry key somewhere. The all-caps menus in Visual Studio are no exception.
    - gtirloni 13y ago
      http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17413001/disable-all-caps-menu-items-in-visual-studio-2013 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17413001/disable-all-caps...

ekurutepe 13y ago

Interesting and apt use of Steve Jobs's truck vs. car analogy at the end: "Maybe Windows needs to be more like GMC, the part of GM that only makes trucks (and truck-based SUVs). After all, while many people choose to use a truck for basic transportation, they're really designed and optimized for work. You know, as should be Windows."

jinushaun 13y ago
Don't forget that Apple makes cars and trucks, and they keep them separate.

mistercow 13y ago

I thought that it was pretty well established that Windows is in an alternating cycle of good and bad versions. Everyone freaks out during the bad part of that cycle, as Microsoft takes a bunch of bold risks, many of which don't really work out, and then a few years later they prune many of the bad decisions and release something reasonably solid. (Man, it feels weird leaving this comment as a Linux user and reformed Mac zealot)

jinushaun 13y ago
I think this doctor has run out of regenerations. Not the same world as before.
- amaks 13y ago
  I think Windows 9 (or whatever it's going to be called) will be a complete pull back into the classic desktop. By the time it ships there will be Modern UI only OS hybrid built with Office for the Modern UI finally caught up. They can all have the same underlying base OS (whatever it's going to be called) with different shells on top. But, I'm not sure how programming model is going to look like, unless they allow classic desktop Windows to run apps built for Modern UI in windowed mode (which seems to be the direction they are heading towards).

yuetuf 13y ago

Posting this with a throwaway as I don't want it to be associated with my named account. Thurrott is full of shit. I call for him to step down and shut down winsupersite and to generally shut up. He's not a windows user -- merely a critic. This is about spinning hits than a valid critique of windows. All he is doing is damaging the company and the industry by recycling this shit over and over again. There are those of us who use windows both for our own personal use and business use. It suits us well simply because there is nothing else with the broad scope that Microsoft offer. Windows 8, whilst not a great success, is exactly what people asked for. The tech news sites spewed how the future was tablets and closed ecosystems powered by app models ao they dived into the consumer market with exactly what people expected. Unfortunately they discovered that the consumer market (which didn't really exist) is just a bunch of fashionista journos' wet dreams and fanboys. Now I'm a Unix guy who saw exactly the same thing happen in the 1990s when Microsoft kicked in the Unix vendors. However they did it through actually providing products people wanted and providing long support lifecycles rater than disposable trinkets and rapid change. Give them a break and look at your 2 year life throwaway trinket phone and tell me that's what you want for the future? That's what you asked for, that's what you got.

poolpool 13y ago
Thurrott is one of the biggest fanboys on the internet behind the crackberry forums. For him to backpedal like this maybe says theres something seriously wrong with the execution of Windows 8?
- gtirloni 13y ago
  If you don't trust his opinions on MS because his is obviously not rational when it comes to them (often biased in Microsoft's favor), why would you trust it when he abruptly changes them? That's the problem with fanboys and people obsessed with these things, they tend to obsess with other things as well. I usually read them with my filters set on maximum level.

keithpeter 13y ago

"...That's mostly business users, but even when you look at the consumers who will use Windows, that usage is almost entirely productivity related. Windows should focus on that. On getting work done. On an audience of doers. Job one should be productivity." Won't that imply support for legacy applications (which Windows is good at) going back some years? Hence maintenance of features required by those applications?

pygy_ 13y ago

A crazy misfeature of windows 8.1 is that the Skype user is tied to the Windows user account. You want to use Skype on someone else's PC? No problem, just create a new Windows user (and watch Windows crash twice in the process while the person you're supposed to call is waiting).

peroo 13y ago
Or you can just install Skype for Windows Desktop. Metro makes perfect sense when you consider a tablet formfactor like Surface, it just shouldn't be used for regular computers, which is where they screwed ujp.
- sixbrx 13y ago
  Which is a bit confusing when the person reasonably thinks they already have "Skype", which is running already on their "Desktop" (computer).
- pygy_ 13y ago
  Thanks, I didn't know that there were several versions. I'll install it. Metro and explorer are completely different worlds. There are even two configurations systems and I've yet to find how to reach the standard control panel without using search.
  - ygra 13y ago
    Win+X, P or open Explorer at "Computer". There is a big "Open Control Panel" button in the ribbon (reachable via Alt+C, C). That being said, search brings me exactly where I want, while the control panel is not my end goal, so I didn't have to open it in quite a while (both on Win 8 and Win 7).
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bitwize 13y ago

Microsoft is in the same place with Windows 8.x that it was with Windows 2.x: trying to migrate its userbase onto a new computing paradigm (GUI/mobile touch apps) while still showing support for the old paradigm (DOS/traditional GUI). Yes, it's going to be a force fit. In part because the paradigms are so different, and in part because it's Microsoft and they don't know how to do anything with any grace, at least at first. But eventually they'll get it kinda-sorta right. And when they do, they'll crush the competition. Especially when tablets and convertibles start to supplant traditional laptops as daily driver devices. Apple probably hasn't much to fear. The real loser here is Android. A light, cheap, powerful device that can run full Windows like the Dell Venue 8 Pro has insane added value above the equivalent Android device.

netcan 13y ago
I think you're right. But that doesn't translate (IMO) lead to MS crushing competition. They have a lot of assets. Important software. Decades of user experience. Several war chests. An institutional ability to grind out a success. etc. etc. But, "computers" has become a big industry. It seems strange to say something so obvious, but the number of "computers" in use, the importance of those computers and the amount of money businesses and individuals spend on them is still growing and growing. I don't think MS can keep ahold of "market share" when the market gets to that size. Market share has always been MS' biggest weapon. The difference between 95% and 80% is 3X as much competition, even if it is nothing in total sales. Imagine an incumbent (say Amazon, Samsung, Google or whatever) company launching a new product that runs something inspired by Chrome OS & iOS on $250 hardware that can replace windows laptops for 10%-20% home users. That sounds a lot more plausible today than it did 10 years ago. 6-7 years ago Vista came out. It had issues and didn't run well on the low end hardware retailers were selling. They probably lost a percent or two of market share to Apple/OSX. Apple never really went after the low margin low-middle end. 6-7 years from now that could be 10%-20% to an unexpected incumbent. The markets important to MS are still growing and expanding so I don't think they are in trouble. They could lose market share and still grow absolute sales. tablets and convertibles starting to supplant traditional laptops as daily driver devices is an opening for new players.
leoedin 13y ago

hetman 13y ago

I just don't understand what the fuss is about. I'm primarily a Windows user (but I run Linux on some of my devices as well). I'm also tend to be quite particular about my UIs getting things right. Saying all that, I've felt next to zero impact in moving from Windows 7 to Windows 8.1. Windows 8.1 feels a bit snappier. Some options have been moved around a bit. That's about it. I just don't understand all the polemicising. Especially with statements like: "The specifics of what's wrong in Windows 8 don't really matter". They matter to me, because after reading all these articles about how terrible Windows 8 is, I still can't figure out what those specifics are! I would love to be enlightened about what I've been missing (or how I've been using Windows 8 wrong).

yaeger 13y ago
Want one example? Fine. It's Fuck Ugly. There. There's your reason. You said yourself you are fickle about your UI of choice. And yet you can't see how many people would be just like you but unlike you they can't stand Win8 UI? It's just like a car, the design matters about as much as the performance of the vehicle. Sure, some people look at cars as tools and don't care what they look like as long as they have 4 wheels and can get them from a to b. But for many people, the car they buy has to have a great design. It is about as much about lifestyle as function. And the same goes for a desktop OS. And I for one find the Metro Tile fest that is Windows 8 to be just that. Fuck Ugly. No other way to sugar coat it. And that isn't just the Metro side. Nope, also the desktop with its sharp 90 degree corners and flat 8 Bit color pallet window blinds looks horrible. Like a complete step backwards looking at how the desktop used to look under Win7. And on Win7 you could even change the themes if you wanted to something more to your liking. Good luck trying to do that on Win8. So, add that to the fact that Win7 filled a need the consumers had and Win8 just filled a need that Microsoft had and you have ample reasons why Win8 is where it is today. Even if there are people like you who apparently can't imagine other people might have a different take on what a great UI should look like.
- hetman 13y ago
  Sounds like you're really fishing for a reason to hate it if that's all you can come up with. Swearing for dramatic effect doesn't sure up an argument as much as you think it does.

hackaflocka 13y ago

At least he's not late to the party. /s

nelmaven 13y ago

Microsoft should take Windows and split it in two: Desktop and Tablet. Because it's just too weird right now. Windows 7 is a great OS and they could refine it to be even better. On the Tablet side they should just pick the good pieces of Windows 8 and go from there. Do one thing at a time and do it well Microsoft!