7 ms·

What is really happening in Ukraine is that both sides of this conflict (pro-Euro and against) are absolutely corrupt and the people know it. The tragedy of thi

What is really happening in Ukraine is that both sides of this conflict (pro-Euro and against) are absolutely corrupt and the people know it. The tragedy of this is that no one from the government or opposition represents the will of the people. The population of Ukraine really just wants an end to corruption and a better national identity, euro-integration was just the last straw, but not fundamental to this crisis (as much as we in the west would like to believe that).

choonkeymoonkey 13y ago
Wait, aren't the people fighting in the streets?
- simonh 13y ago
  Some people are fighting in the streets. Some other people support them, some other people oppose them, some other people are the police officers breaking their heads. What percentage of the population of Ukraine are actually out fighting in the streets? I'm not many any point at all about who is or isn't in the right or wrong here, I'm not Ukrainian, don't know anyone Ukrainian and have minimal knowledge of the situation out there. But who you consider to be 'the people' is usually a matter of point of view. For example I have been to Egypt, do know Egyptians and have a fair basic understanding of the situation out there which is complex and tragic. I had hopes the brothers would form a competent administration, but they didn't and now they I think deservedly got booted out. But take a popular chant 'The people and the Army are one hand'. Which people? The Muslim Brotherhood somehow aren't people? The only way you can ever know what 'the people' really think is in a free and fair election, but the results can often be surprising to outsiders.
dmytrish 13y ago
Yes, you're right that Ukrainian opposition is still a part of the corrupt system, but there's a hope that Klichko (who lived in Europe for a long time) is a fresh blood here. Also, current Yanukovych's and Party of Regions corruption is outrageous even for Ukraine. This is the true reason of the revolution. People fight with the state sincerely, I don't see much sane people who are sincerely supporting Yanukovych now.
- gtrubetskoy 13y ago
  Klichko doesn't strike me as an honest person, he's as corrupt as the next guy, but that's just MHO.
  - anovikov 13y ago
    Correct, the people are not there to replace personalities, they are to destroy the whole political system making resurrection of successive corrupt governments impossible. So 'opposition leaders' are not really leaders of Maidan, people don't give much respect to them, it is more like Muslim Brothers who rode the protest wave in Egypt to come into power, not being protest leaders in the first place. Much like Lenin who didn't organize Russian Revolution either, only riding its wave into power. I hope this time will be different.
cLeEOGPw 13y ago
The people know that, and the reason they fight for Ukraine to at least in future join EU is because, as they say themselves, in EU at least the laws are valid. And that is true. It has been already stated that in order for Ukraine to join EU it will have to undergo a reform that will rise the transparency and bring it closer to EU standards.
- darkbot 13y ago
  Pretty naive belief. Spain just practically outlawed demonstrations or to publicly criticize the government. Hamburg in Germany has declared 'danger zones' in parts of their city that's, anti-demonstration laws that are even more strict than the ones Ukraine.
  - cLeEOGPw 13y ago
    It's not a belief, it's just hope. Besides, demonstrations are not their goal. And if they will feel that something is seriously wrong, no laws will stop them from demonstrating anyway, as proved by the current events. And Germany can afford to have such strict laws, because it is little to protest for in Germany, so the protests tend to be more local and relevant to some minority more than the whole population, so getting them out of certain parts I think is reasonable. If German government would be doing something that 90% of population would strongly oppose, I'm pretty sure nobody would care of such laws when half million people come to the forbidden area.
api 13y ago
That seems to be a common thing globally. All sides of most political conflicts are corrupt.
memracom 13y ago
Exactly! And how many of you have actually read the agreement that the EU presented to Yanukovich to sign. You will be surprised at the scope of the changes that Ukraine would have to implement. [http://eeas.europa.eu/ukraine/assoagreement/assoagreement-2013_en.htm http://eeas.europa.eu/ukraine/assoagreement/assoagreement-20...] It is hard to believe that Ukrainian citizens are even aware of the details in this agreement. How can they decide whether or not it is a good deal if they do not even know the details? Too many Ukrainians believe that this agreement would give them visa free travel to the EU (it would NOT) so that they could go there, get a job, save up the money and come home to buy a house and live a life of ease. This actually happened to a lot of Polish workers when Poland joined the EU, but the EU economy was in a different state back then. Since that time the EU has imposed strict rules around new members working in the EU so that Rumania and Bulgaria did not experience that same gold-paved road that the Poles experienced.

choonkeymoonkey 13y ago

Wait, aren't the people fighting in the streets?

simonh 13y ago
Some people are fighting in the streets. Some other people support them, some other people oppose them, some other people are the police officers breaking their heads. What percentage of the population of Ukraine are actually out fighting in the streets? I'm not many any point at all about who is or isn't in the right or wrong here, I'm not Ukrainian, don't know anyone Ukrainian and have minimal knowledge of the situation out there. But who you consider to be 'the people' is usually a matter of point of view. For example I have been to Egypt, do know Egyptians and have a fair basic understanding of the situation out there which is complex and tragic. I had hopes the brothers would form a competent administration, but they didn't and now they I think deservedly got booted out. But take a popular chant 'The people and the Army are one hand'. Which people? The Muslim Brotherhood somehow aren't people? The only way you can ever know what 'the people' really think is in a free and fair election, but the results can often be surprising to outsiders.

dmytrish 13y ago

Yes, you're right that Ukrainian opposition is still a part of the corrupt system, but there's a hope that Klichko (who lived in Europe for a long time) is a fresh blood here. Also, current Yanukovych's and Party of Regions corruption is outrageous even for Ukraine. This is the true reason of the revolution. People fight with the state sincerely, I don't see much sane people who are sincerely supporting Yanukovych now.

gtrubetskoy 13y ago
Klichko doesn't strike me as an honest person, he's as corrupt as the next guy, but that's just MHO.
- anovikov 13y ago
  Correct, the people are not there to replace personalities, they are to destroy the whole political system making resurrection of successive corrupt governments impossible. So 'opposition leaders' are not really leaders of Maidan, people don't give much respect to them, it is more like Muslim Brothers who rode the protest wave in Egypt to come into power, not being protest leaders in the first place. Much like Lenin who didn't organize Russian Revolution either, only riding its wave into power. I hope this time will be different.

cLeEOGPw 13y ago

The people know that, and the reason they fight for Ukraine to at least in future join EU is because, as they say themselves, in EU at least the laws are valid. And that is true. It has been already stated that in order for Ukraine to join EU it will have to undergo a reform that will rise the transparency and bring it closer to EU standards.

darkbot 13y ago
Pretty naive belief. Spain just practically outlawed demonstrations or to publicly criticize the government. Hamburg in Germany has declared 'danger zones' in parts of their city that's, anti-demonstration laws that are even more strict than the ones Ukraine.
- cLeEOGPw 13y ago
  It's not a belief, it's just hope. Besides, demonstrations are not their goal. And if they will feel that something is seriously wrong, no laws will stop them from demonstrating anyway, as proved by the current events. And Germany can afford to have such strict laws, because it is little to protest for in Germany, so the protests tend to be more local and relevant to some minority more than the whole population, so getting them out of certain parts I think is reasonable. If German government would be doing something that 90% of population would strongly oppose, I'm pretty sure nobody would care of such laws when half million people come to the forbidden area.

api 13y ago

That seems to be a common thing globally. All sides of most political conflicts are corrupt.

memracom 13y ago

Exactly! And how many of you have actually read the agreement that the EU presented to Yanukovich to sign. You will be surprised at the scope of the changes that Ukraine would have to implement. [http://eeas.europa.eu/ukraine/assoagreement/assoagreement-2013_en.htm http://eeas.europa.eu/ukraine/assoagreement/assoagreement-20...] It is hard to believe that Ukrainian citizens are even aware of the details in this agreement. How can they decide whether or not it is a good deal if they do not even know the details? Too many Ukrainians believe that this agreement would give them visa free travel to the EU (it would NOT) so that they could go there, get a job, save up the money and come home to buy a house and live a life of ease. This actually happened to a lot of Polish workers when Poland joined the EU, but the EU economy was in a different state back then. Since that time the EU has imposed strict rules around new members working in the EU so that Rumania and Bulgaria did not experience that same gold-paved road that the Poles experienced.