16 ms·

Revolution in Kiev

496 points by eigenvector 13y ago

f_salmon 13y ago
How well are these events being reported in the media (US), in your view?
- mlvljr 13y ago
  With all the usual truthfulness, of course. (looking from Russia)
- yazmeya 13y ago
  Very poorly. There's virtually nothing on the majors' home pages (e.g., only WSJ has it above the fold now), and blogs latch on to fiery pictures only. Much better coverage @ Reuters and BBC.
jwr 13y ago
Did anyone else notice how refreshing this kind of reporting feels after being used to what the mainstream media feeds us? This story is low-key, trying to present all aspects, trying to stay objective -- it's been a long time since I read something like this from a journalist.
- sekasi 13y ago
  This. So much this. The article is not trying to drum dramatics or hype or anything that western media is brainwashed to do with everything. It's just simple, honest and very brutal.
- danieldk 13y ago
  It's not that different how the media in my home country (The Netherlands, e.g. 'Nieuwsuur') have been reporting in Syria and are starting to report Ukraine - in the trenches, literally on the fronts, following and interviewing people on both sides. Of course, everyone already knew that CNN and others are garbage. If the reality doesn't align with their great capitalism fairytale where Bono is the pinnacle of humanism, they will make it fit ;).
- pgeorgi 13y ago
  Reading the report, I can't say it's objective - on the contrary it's rather biased, but it doesn't try to conceal it. That alone made it more useful reporting for me than many other things I've read about the situation recently where I had to try to figure out what the hidden bias is (and account for it appropriately).
- adobriyan 13y ago
  Note, he wrote story in English to make it repostable in western internets, so to influence public opinion in necessary way, namely, "people came out against Yanukovich". You know, kinda push our western friends to intervene.
  - dmytrish 13y ago
    I follow Varlamov's elucidation of the events and I must say that his blog is very influential in Russian segment of the internet and it deserves this. So he published the translation after multiple requests.
- tomh 13y ago
  Keep in mind that it is a combination of the last few posts he's made in Russian, each one trying to deliver an impartial message of what is going on in Kiev. His previous post was even entitled, "Maidan through the eyes of the police and Berkut" so he is trying to be as impartial as he can: http://zyalt.livejournal.com/984379.html http://zyalt.livejournal.com/984379.html
hooande 13y ago
This is an amazingly low tech revolution. The primary weapons of the protestors are: smoke, flammable liquid, rocks, shields and giant slingshots. These tools could have been used in the Peloponeasian War as easily as in 2014. It really says something about the character of the revolutionaries that they are willing to fight without modern weapons or equipment. I don't know enough about the Urkaine to asses the merit of their politics, but I am inclined to side with the group that has old women and children pitching in to help with logistics. There aren't just criminals and malcontents. Right or wrong, these people feel strongly about their cause. The courage these activists are showing is going to do a lot to help accomplish their political goals. Every day that they hold out will increase the volume of their message. When I originally heard about this I thought it was more of a violent uprising. But the protestors are fighting with fireworks and laser pointers. This kind of aggressive non-violence will play better in the media once more people learn about the details. If the number of casualties remains low this could turn into an Eastern European Tahrir Square, with hopefully positive benefits for the whole region.
- IgorPartola 13y ago
  Gun ownership I Ukraine is pretty restrictive: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/ukraine http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/ukraine. Given these events it is probably a good thing otherwise a lot more people would be dead now.
  - chmike 13y ago
    Yes but what can we expect from Putin who is obviously behind the political decision to turn their back to europe ?
    - gritzko 13y ago
      Putin is temporarily hobbled by the Olympiad (potential boycott and everything).
  - smsm42 13y ago
    You are aware of the fact that strict gun laws don't mean no guns? Your own link shows there are 3 million guns in Ukraine. If there's a need, some of them - probably hundreds of them - would find their way to the hostilities. But I'm not sure there is the will to escalate the situation this far. Because then the next step is using the army and heavy weaponry, and that means civil war and massive casualties. No one really wants that to happen.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- bluekeybox 13y ago
  As someone not very familiar with the Turkish situation, would you mind sharing which specific Turkish protests you're referring to that remind you of this one? Thanks.
  - dombili 13y ago
    Sure. I was referring to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_protests_in_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_protests_in_Turkey.
mxpxrocks10 13y ago
pretty nuts! thanks for posting!!
shangxiao 13y ago
Reading this to the tune of Louis Armstrong's Wonderful World
rosser 13y ago
I feel like this kind of thing (the various Arab Spring uprisings, the Ukrainian revolution, &c) is very well served by the cacophony of amateur/citizen journalism that flows out of an individual event. Sure, at the time, it's incredibly noisy, because there's so much primary source material being created, with such incredible depth and nuance. Once people start to be able to assemble a comprehensive understanding of what actually went down, however, it tends more accurately to reflect the reality of events, and makes it much harder for spin and propaganda to dictate the narrative. That's, I think, the ultimate goal of democratizing media. But I'm also notoriously an optimist about this kind of thing, so, you know: cup of salt, please take with.
- yetanotherphd 13y ago
  A lot of what seems to be grassroots could be aided, and perhaps even orchestrated, by sophisticated groups with a political agenda, e.g. the CIA. It would only take around 10-20 bloggers to create the illusion that the majority people in the country felt a certain way. EDIT: and nowadays, they wouldn't just blog, they would post to Reddit, and maybe even HN.
  - rosser 13y ago
    True enough. But my extended social circle includes a number of people of Ukrainian nationality and/or descent. Everything I've heard from them (which is, granted, not a lot; I haven't been tracking these events terribly actively, let alone vis-à-vis their perspectives) tends to corroborate what I'm seeing in this blog post, at least.
    - yetanotherphd 13y ago
      There is a very significant pro-Western bias amongst educated people who have moved to the West. If you just looked at educated Chinese immigrants during the last 50 years, you would never guess at the overwhelming support for the communist party.
      - 13y ago
epicureanideal 13y ago
Thanks for the translation!
tsurantino 13y ago
One thing really stood out to me about this protest, and that is how isolated and targeted it is against government. The writer mentioned how no shopkeepers are affected, and that protesting is specifically barricaded around the government district. Irrespective of the violence and damage taking place, that there is no collateral means that we can't detract from the focus of the issue.
- desireco42 13y ago
  That is very hard to believe :) and naive assertion, all reports point out to very aggressive 'protesters' that attack security forces to provoke their reaction and that whole nature of protest is changing towards violence and aggression.
  - cdash 13y ago
    He said it is targeted at the government and not that there was no violence at all. I personally don't have any problem with them attacking security forces when it is the security forces that initiated the violence to begin with.
  - spikels 13y ago
    Do you have a dog in this fight? Read the post then if you disagree present some evidence. What "all reports"? Here's a balanced one that disagrees with your claim: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/world/europe/ukrainian-president-offers-top-posts-to-opposition-leaders.html?hp&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/world/europe/ukrainian-pre... By 'protestors' do you mean they are not protestors? If so what are they? I suspect you get all your information from Russian government sources. Right?
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    This is your second post that disputes this blog but you offer no evidence to support your claims. The photos of intact shops and first hand accounts are supplies in the blog post. What is your involvement or interest? The story offered here is pretty compelling I thought.
  - 13y ago
sillysaurus2 13y ago
A protester in Kiev did an IAmA on Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1w17qn/iama_protestor_in_kyiv_ukraine/ http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1w17qn/iama_protestor_... According to him, "Russia is trying to keep all the former Soviet Union satellite countries under control, and that is the root cause of the rioting."
- pinaceae 13y ago
  back in 2006 i started a bet with a friend, i wagered that within 10 years the russian army would enter ukrainian soil. the excuse being restoring order/peace. it's a 100 eur bet. i'd hate to win actually, but fuck, it's getting closer and closer. the eastern provinces are russian vs. the west, which is sort of european/polish. civil war is close.
- higherpurpose 13y ago
  They've already lost Moldavia recently, and didn't they lose Georgia, too? I don't think they can keep them under control much longer.
  - Sanddancer 13y ago
    They're losing a lot of the political clout they held over their former puppets. The Baltic states have been making closer and closer ties to the eurozone as well, along with Romania, etc. The Ukraine feels very much like a last stand of Russia, which may explain why they're placing so much pressure on the heads of government there.
  - Mikeb85 13y ago
    > They've already lost Moldavia recently, and didn't they lose Georgia, too? The Rose Revolution gang were ousted in the most recent elections in Georgia...
    - tomh 13y ago
      And former Georgian President Saakashvili is coming to the USA to teach, as a Senior Statesman: http://fletcher.tufts.edu/News-and-Media/2013/12/20/President-Mikheil-Saakashvili-of-the-Republic-of-Georgia-to-Join-Fletcher-School-as-Senior-Statesman?utm_source=homepage&utm_medium=banner&utm_campaign=Saakashvili http://fletcher.tufts.edu/News-and-Media/2013/12/20/Presiden...
nate_meurer 13y ago
The photography here is absolutely incredible. This situation is really frightening to me. I so hope that the Ukraine can get out from underneath her oppressors (yes I mean Yanukovitch and Putin) without descending any further into chaos.
- news_to_me 13y ago
  I'm a bit uninformed; is there any recent precedent for a revolt like this succeeding? Honestly I'm a little skeptical that a revolution of this sort could ultimately defeat a vastly better-funded power without overwhelming popular support.
  - prostoalex 13y ago
    Ukraine in 2004 worked out, albeit short-term. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution
    - Mikeb85 13y ago
      Yes, Yanukovych won the next elections when there was less western interference...
      - ajuc 13y ago
        Consider this - Yushchenko let the people decide. Do you really think Yanukovych will do the same in next elections? Will Yanukovych just let the people vote him out of the office? He has no chance to win again in honest elections, and he already faked the elections before orange revolution. He was in prison twice for theft, he is a criminal. How do you think people can trust him to do the right thing? His family become very rich very quickly. He jailed opposition candidate. He changed constitution to make it harder to protest. The EU partnership thing was just the last straw. People don't want to be stuck with Yanukovych forever, and now is last chance to get rid of him.
- aquadrop 13y ago
girvo 13y ago
Wow. That photography is mind blowing, as is the entire situation. I hope the small number of casualties remains low as it has. Also, props to them for not looting the businesses on the front line, usually that seems to be what happens! But this seems different, somehow.
- bluekeybox 13y ago
  It's different because, unlike OWS, this is not an "eat the rich" protest. This is a protest against an authoritarian foreign power imposing its will on what (briefly) has been an independent country.
mladenkovacevic 13y ago
Reading stuff like this is a wonderful way to remind me how naive and easy to manipulate people generally are.
- yetanotherphd 13y ago
  who do you think is being manipulated? Statements like that are useless without some elaboration.
  - mladenkovacevic 13y ago
    The protesters are manipulated into thinking that joining EU and getting rid of Yanukovich is somehow the first step to prosperity... And the blogosphere is manipulated into buying this as some kind of completely spontaneous grass roots movement. Sure people want change.. But this is bankrolled elsewhere.. I bet it wasn't that expensive either.
    - yetanotherphd 13y ago
      I agree (see my other post in this thread). But I don't know much about Ukraine. It would be great if you would post a detailed analysis as a top level post.
    - spikels 13y ago
      Bankrolled by who? EU? US? Who? And do you have any evidence? BTW-Do you get your news from RT?
      - memracom 13y ago
        It could even have been bankrolled from Russia. Even though I speak Russian and some Ukrainian, and I have followed current events in both countries for years, I can't figure out what is actually going on here. Yes, it could be another dumb move by the Americans who have a real habit of foot in mouth internationally, but it could just as well be part of a clever complex multi-year gambit by the Russians who have a strong tradition of playing chess, not just around a table with wooden game pieces, but in international politics as well.
desireco42 13y ago
Stunning photography. What I see here is large scale destruction of presumably their city by it's citizens. I don't see how anything good can come out of mass hysteria and destruction. Edit... I don't believe for a moment and based on numerous other reports in the media, that assertions about peacefulness of this protest are true or represent anything but something that poster would like to be. Doesn't sound likely and no-one else is reporting it, so most likely is wishful thinking.
- adamnemecek 13y ago
  At the same time though, peaceful protests only go that far.
  - BlackDeath3 13y ago
    Right. I think that "violence is never the answer!" is a very first-world perspective.
- news_to_me 13y ago
  Did you read the whole post? It actually seems relatively organized and non-destructive—not a single window broken, according to the report. For now, it sounds like everyone is united against the Berkut. I'd hardly call it hysteria.
- rosser 13y ago
  From TFA: 3. "The entire Kiev is paralyzed, there is no peaceful life for the regular people." Kiev is living its own life. All stores and cafes are working, people are going to work, study in universities, get married, divorce and even die their own death. Most of the Kiev populace are not inconvenienced. Imagine if Navalny took over the Red Square and set up his camp there. What would change for you, Moscovites? Nothing. So the only people who are inconvenienced are toruists. A few stores and cafes had to close down in the very center. Also, those living in the center have troubles with logistics. But the entire Kiev is not paralyzed. So, no, the city isn't being destroyed. (At least not yet.)
- TerraHertz 13y ago
higherpurpose 13y ago
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - John F. Kennedy You'd think oppressive leaders would learn that lesson by now. But no, it seems we're more likely doomed to repeat it in cycles, over and over again. I wonder what those politicians who come up with the idea of "hey, let's make protesting virtually impossible. That will all our problems!". They need to understand that protesting is that an effect of a cause. If the cause isn't fixed, those issues and frustrations the people have won't just go away. They will build up, until they explode.
- TerraHertz 13y ago
  Given the character of the president as described here http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/maydan/maydan.html http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/maydan/maydan.... (by someone who's opinion I trust) I strongly doubt the man has the capability to learn anything, let alone lessons from history.
- bluekeybox 13y ago
  I don't mean to get personal, but your post is surprisingly content-free. Everyone in the pro-government party understands what this protest is about. Yanukovich may be portrayed as non-intellectual, but he has read his Machiavelli and knows how to maneuver. In addition, he has an equally ardent, albeit much less vociferous voter base as the opposition, plus a network of government-connected oligarchs who run the show from behind the scenes. In this case, the future of the country has a clear schism. You cannot simultaneously sign a pact with Russia while opening the door to European market. It's one or the other, black or white, as made clear by Mr. Putin.
TerraHertz 13y ago
A couple more links from a Ukrainian lady I greatly respect. http://www.elenafilatova.com/ http://www.elenafilatova.com/ http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/maydan/maydan.html http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/maydan/maydan.... Who remembers 'Chernobyl Gal? The biker who takes solitary rides through the Chernobyl closed zone, and publishes photo journals of them. These are her sites. From an entirely different angle, there's probably a lot of truth in this person's comments too: http://www.barnhardt.biz/2014/01/23/ukraine-you-better-pay-attention-because-it-thats-how-its-going-to-play-out-here/ http://www.barnhardt.biz/2014/01/23/ukraine-you-better-pay-a...
altero 13y ago
I wonder if somebody actually read EU treaty (reason for all this protests). Signing it would pretty much kill industry and criple agriculture at Ukraine.
- bluekeybox 13y ago
  None of the people protesting have any illusion as to how long it would take to join EU or that it would be painless. Moreover, joining (or not joining the EU) is not even the main point of the protests. The point of the protests is preventing a Russian-controlled mafia government from taking over the country's future.
- prostoalex 13y ago
  Can you point to specific paragraphs that would do such things?
  - altero 13y ago
    For start Ukraine treaty does not handle subsidies. So France and other countries would be able to 'dump' their subsidized agricaltural product on Ukranien market. Ukraine farmers do not get subsidy, they have higher prices and would eventually bankrupt. Industry is concetrated on east and exports/imports mainly to Russia. EU would make it very hard to trade with Russia. Factories could not sell product and could not import materials. Joining EU is long process which takes years of negotiation. Poland is good example. But just signing whatever EU throws your direction is very bad deal.
    - prostoalex 13y ago
      > For start Ukraine treaty does not handle subsidies. Article 32.1 states: "Upon entry into force of this Agreement, no Party shall maintain, introduce or reintroduce export subsidies or other measures with equivalent effect on agricultural goods destined for the territory of the other Party." And then it relegates the finer details to WTO treaties, which Ukraine already signed. > EU would make it very hard to trade with Russia. Which part of the agreement would make it difficult?
nate_martin 13y ago
Cached: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:59ucRnLNiPIJ:zyalt.livejournal.com/984735.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:59ucRnL...
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
kulesh 13y ago
Vote it up on Reddit (I am not the one who posted the link over there, of course). http://www.reddit.com/submit?url=http%3A%2F%2Fzyalt.livejournal.com%2F984735.html http://www.reddit.com/submit?url=http%3A%2F%2Fzyalt.livejour...
Mikeb85 13y ago
The reality distortion field the protesters have formed is impressive. They've completely overshadowed a few key points: - The Yanukovych government offered a power-sharing agreement with the opposition, offering Yatsenyuk the PM position and Klitschko the deputy PM job, which the opposition rejected: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-oppositions-rejects-viktor-yanukovych-s-concessions-1.2509259 http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-oppositions-rejects-vik... - The fascist element - one of the opposition leaders, Oleh Tyahnybok, leads a fascist party (Svoboda) and has openly spread anti-Semitic rhetoric, and aligned itself with extremist groups. Fairly common knowledge to anyone in the know... You can see the fascist and neo-nazi symbols on many of the protesters. http://en.ria.ru/images/18519/41/185194148.jpg http://en.ria.ru/images/18519/41/185194148.jpg The flags with 3 fingers are Svoboda's symbol, the red and black ones are UPA flags, which are the symbol of a group that collaborated with the Nazis, and are used by fascist groups in Ukraine. - The protesters have been the most violent force during the protests. In what country do police stand by when Molotov cocktails and fireworks are fired at them? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h22oHs3eiLg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h22oHs3eiLg - And finally, Yanukovych was not only democratically elected, but because of the split amongst the opposition factions, the PoR will likely win any election that is devoid of outside interference... After the 'Orange Revolution' the opposition united with Yushchenko, now there's 3 large opposition groups (Fatherland, 'Punch', and Svoboda). Considering half the country firmly supports the Party of Regions, the opposition are unlikely to win anything. Edit - more fascist imagery at the protests: http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/kiev-maidan1.jpg http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/kiev-maidan1.jp... http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/kiev-maidan2.jpg http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/kiev-maidan2.jp... Edit2 - the Svoboda/Oleh Tyahnybok fascist/anti-Semitic connection: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTjezCzo-BQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTjezCzo-BQ http://www.ibtimes.com/svoboda-rising-spectre-neo-nazism-ukraine-974110 http://www.ibtimes.com/svoboda-rising-spectre-neo-nazism-ukr... These are the words of Oleh Tyahnybok: "They did not fear, but took up their automatic rifles, going into the woods to fight Muscovites, Germans, Jewry and other filth which wanted to take away our Ukrainian nationhood. It’s time to give Ukraine to the Ukrainians. Like them, you are most feared by the Moscow-Jewish mafia which today runs Ukraine" http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/oleg-tyanhybok.jpg http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/oleg-tyanhybok....
memracom 13y ago
Just remember that everything you read/see about Ukraine is propaganda published by someone who is trying to get you to agree with their point of view. They are careful to select their photos to not show the things that they don't want you to know about. For instance, these photos careful do not show the neo-nazi far right groups, the people with handguns, or the police being hit by flaming molotov cocktails or wounded by fireworks. Of course the other side similarly delivers an edited message. But the bottom line is that none of this is democracy. Whatever it is, it has to end sometime so that all the groups of people who live in Ukraine can sit down, discuss their differences, find compromises and live in peace. Only then will Ukraine really be a nation. Until then it is just a corner of the Soviet Union that has failed to catch up with the modern world.
- IgorPartola 13y ago
  Bullshit. The people cannot sit down with this criminal president and discuss anything. Ones that do end up in prison: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko. He is stealing from the people (http://m.spiegel.de/international/world/a-833127.html http://m.spiegel.de/international/world/a-833127.html) and is actively suppressing all forms of the opposition. Apply your logic to the American revolution and see just how absurd it starts to sound. The please stop trolling.
  - x0x0 13y ago
    end up in prison and beaten (did they cause her spinal issues or just prevent treatment?)
- bluekeybox 13y ago
  > Until then it is just a corner of the Soviet Union that has failed to catch up with the modern world. Sounding a little patronizing here, no?
- memracom 13y ago
  Yes, I feel rather superior being a dual citizen of a NAFTA country which gets along with its neighbors, and an EU country which also gets along with its neighbors. I simply do not agree with any political movement that is based on demonizing a group of citizens of your own country or based on demonizing a country which is a neighbor. Given that Ukrainians seem to be doing both, I am quite smug and patronising about that fact. In the end they have to stop shouting, and vilifying. They have to start talking and be willing to find compromises. That's the only way that will work in the 21st century.
washedup 13y ago
I have no idea what is going on in Kiev, but these images are amazing.
menato 13y ago
Just for comparison: alternative photo set of same Kiev in the same time: http://tema.livejournal.com/1589937.html http://tema.livejournal.com/1589937.html Photography is a great thing: with a proper selection one could change opinion of viewer pretty strong.
IgorPartola 13y ago
Man, the amount of disdain people have for protesters in the comments to this story is really shocking. I do not exactly understand where it's coming from. Yanukovych is a corrupt petty thief and rapist, turned politician, who has very close ties with Russia, and is stealing from the Ukrainian people through corruption. He rigged an election in 2004 and only massive riots prevented him from coming into power then by forcing a new vote. In any civilized country any of these individual issues would have prevented him from being eligible to be president. The basic political problem in Ukraine is that Russia still has lots of influence over it, and Russia sees it as its territory separated temporarily after the breakup of the USSR. Ukraine is dependent on Russia for things like natural gas, and thus cannot simply break away from the abusive relationship. Russia naturally has an interest in having a political puppet in power in Ukraine. Who better to do this than a convicted felon like Yanukovych? This is how the riots started this time around: to protest the sudden pro-Russian turn of the Yanukovych administration. Ukraine has for some time now faced the tough choice: continue its abusive but familiar relationship with Russia or turn to Europe and risk everything to try to build a new relationship with the EU? IMO, until Ukraine grows a spine and does what's best for its people long term, it will continue getting into situations like this. Yanukovych, while completely corrupt, is not the ultimate evil. He is a lackey that will be replaced if he is ousted. The real issue here is Russia.
- thesz 13y ago
  Those commenters have very justified disdain. They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case. My (not only mine's, actually) conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics and former states from the Socialist block, including Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc. Never mind that burning car tires means producing benzopirenes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo%28a%29pyrene http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo%28a%29pyrene Those compounds are 1000 times more harmful than lead. They are making Kiev to be very bad for living quite fast. So, in short, protesters are stupid judging from several points of view.
  - IgorPartola 13y ago
    Oh man. I cannot see how what you are saying makes sense. First, joining the EU and trading with the EU are different things. We are talking about a very low level of commitment here for what originally started these riots. Please tell us how reducing corruption and creating a trade agreement with the EU a bad thing for Ukraine? Second, what does burning tires have to do with anything about this political situation? What would you do if you living in Kiev right now? Reading more of these comments I am starting to think that most people who express this disdain are really just trolling for Russia.
ok_craig 13y ago
Best quote: "war is war, but everyone needs to updates pics in social networks"
KaiserPro 13y ago
Whats interesting is that this view seems to tally fairly well with BBC's world service's view.
dodyg 13y ago
Greetings from Cairo. I will you all good luck in Ukraine, especially in Maidan Sq.
antonmks 13y ago
More videos : government building takeover in Vinnitsa, Ukraine : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi_B637FCDY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi_B637FCDY
znowi 13y ago
Ukraine has been historically divided into pro-West Ukraine in the west and pro-Russia Ukraine in the east. I think the only peaceful resolution to this conflict is having two independent states.
- bluekeybox 13y ago
  Actually there is (or at least use to be) an idea of "progress". The hope was that people in the predominantly Russian-speaking Eastern regions would eventually "convert" politically to a pro-European direction because a primary driver of the pro-Russian leanings (other than cultural factors) was a positive memory of industrialization by the USSR which brought them jobs and a better way of life. The idea was that the older generation who remembered the glory of the USSR would eventually become replaced with a less Russia-centric one. Unfortunately this hasn't exactly played out to the extent it was hoped for.
fromdoon 13y ago
Here in India, we have also witnessed a series of street agitations against a corrupt political system that runs most of the country. Though, It hasn't crossed the line, yet, and turned into violent protests like Kiev. There are many things which have happened in the 21st century, but the rise of frequent civilian protests around the world is certainly the one that stands out. I am not a student of history, but this is the first time I am becoming more and more aware of such restlessness in the citizens of the world. I guess, this is a kind of cycle. Political systems rise, become stable and stay for some time and then slowly the rot begins, which when reaches a certain tipping point, forces the masses to rise to make correction and then the cycles repeats. The only difference being the timeline of the cycle, which seems to differ from region to region and from country to country. I am sure there must be some literature/research dedicated to this phenomena.
tiatia 13y ago
There are two forces clashing. US supported groups (That basically want Ukraine to be part of the EU) and Pro Russian groups (supported by good ol' Putin). Let's hope it all ends well. This is the Bozo who thought it all up: http://www.amazon.com/The-Grand-Chessboard-Geostrategic-Imperatives/dp/0465027261 http://www.amazon.com/The-Grand-Chessboard-Geostrategic-Impe...
- bluekeybox 13y ago
  It's an (somewhat distorted) oversimplification to call this a Cold-War style chess game. Both groups are authentic, i.e. people in Western Ukraine genuinely feel closer to the West while people in Eastern Ukraine genuinely do feel closer to Russia. The US influence is nearly non-existent (if you discount Hollywood movies of course) while Russia exerts very significant influence by placing economic pressure (such as banning imports from "misbehaving" countries that were formerly a part of the USSR), providing PR expertise to Russian-supporting political parties, and so on.
  - tiatia 13y ago
    I agree that Ukraine is a divided country. This being said: Just recently a newspaper in Beijing had a comic showing the Ukraine as a car. Uncle Sam was shown trying to stir the stirring wheel. This gives you an idea. Trust me, the US has a strong strong interest of the Ukraine breaking away from US influence.
    - bluekeybox 13y ago
      > the US has a strong strong interest of the Ukraine breaking away from US influence Sure it does. However, don't you understand that all runner-up or would-be superpowers (China, Russia, etc) have a vested interest in portraying US influence as being the driving force behind anything bad happening anywhere? > Just recently a newspaper in Beijing had a comic showing the Ukraine as a car. Uncle Sam was shown trying to stir the stirring wheel. This gives you an idea. So that's where you get your news from? How about you learn some Ukrainian and find out what the actual situation is on the ground?
_random_ 13y ago
This is not a revolution. The political type of society is not going to change. The rioters are not supported by the population.
- ajuc 13y ago
  Strange that Ukrainians I know all support it.
  - _random_ 13y ago
    I know both kinds. What would you personally choose: a corrupt government or a revolt that was designed by someone outside of your country with their own agenda?
    - ajuc 13y ago
      How do you know it was designed by someone outside? And why does it matter anyway? Do you seriosuly thing all these people protesting were paid by CIA? For 3 months? Some of them - I agree. Just like some of them were paid by Russia to make the protesters look bad. That's how politics go. In the end the biggest group is still the people that came there cause they wanted to protest. And don't you think they have valid reasons to protest? Do you think what Yanukovych did is good or bad for Ukraine? I mean the whole set of anti-demonstration and anti-press laws. It's almost martial law. Is it OK with you? Better alternative to what exactly? Do you think he will let go of the power by himself? Or are you ok with benevolent dictator for life? It's how it always been in USSR, right? No point in leaving important matters to people. I was 6 when Poland become independent in 1989. I don't remember much, just empty shelves gray people and standing with my mother in queues forever. But my parents and the whole family do. Nineties was hard but in the end it all worked out OK. Poland is much better place now. Do I care who started the protests - nope. Do I think there were some foreign agencies and conspiracies in this? Probably there were. Both Soviet and American. In the end regular people decided. Soviets had the whole country, the army, press, censorship, party, everything. Americans had radio free Europe and Hollywood movies to "brainwash" us. And Russians were brainwashing us every bit as hard as Americans, with schools, media, holidays, incentives to be a party memeber, everything. Still couldn't hide the fact that system was broken by design and worked worse every year. People decided the revolution, not secret agencies.
PavlovsCat 13y ago
A lot of things and links here: http://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/ http://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/ A fixed cam view of a part of maidan, online 24/7 so far: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/euromajdan/pop-out http://www.ustream.tv/channel/euromajdan/pop-out and last, but not least: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/press-club http://www.ustream.tv/channel/press-club <- the live coverage is spotty, but do look for "olya" in the sidebar (you have to click "more" for them to show up) for some guided tours around maidan and interviews with protesters by an english speaking journalist. Highly recommended. There are of course many more feeds and videos, but you will find them all in the above subreddit (in /r/europe and /r/worldnews, too)
solyanyk 13y ago
The comments here are truly amazing! People who never had to protect their constitutional freedoms or human rights against a real, brutal, force, who were simply lucky enough to be born in places with long and established traditions of democracy (something their ancestors actually did have to struggle for), smugly judging people who risk their lives standing up for their values in place where human rights meant nothing for centuries. "OMG people are so easy to manipulate", "This smoke is damn unpleasant, is it really necessary?", "Can't they just talk to each other like normal people"... Unbelievable.
vitalique 13y ago
Two things that especially amaze about the actual 'street part' of Ukrainian revolution are complete absence of plundering or looting of local shops and that no firearms have been used by protesters.
- deletes 13y ago
  I think mostly because the protest are very localized. Apart from that street, the city( and country ) is operating as usual. Shops and businesses are operating and civilians are going to work. The protest are mostly after work activity. That is why the largest fights take place in the evening and night.
  - vdaniuk 13y ago
    ^^ This comment is misinformation. More than 10 regional administrations are currently under control of protestors and there are mass protests in most regional centers in Ukraine. This is a map of protests. http://inspired.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/oda-map-26_01_15_00.jpg http://inspired.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/oda-map-26... Legend: Red means regional administration buildings are under control of protestors. Pinkish are regions where protestors block the administration buildings of were unsuccessful at capturing them. Brownish? means mass protests are occurring.
    - deletes 13y ago
      ^^ This comment is misinformation. You didn't post any proof, so you see, anyone can do that. According to you, half of the country is involved in the protest and not going to work( >20 million !!), I highly doubt that the whole country is at halt. I have only seen and read about protest in the very center of Kiev. Around of the Independence Square, Hrushevsky Street and its neighboring streets. All I stated was posted in the foreign media and blogs( truthful or not ), unfortunately I don't have the time to backtrack and search to provide the necessary links. I would love to hear some reliable information to confirm any statements.
mlvljr 13y ago
The view from the other side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgRtQh7j_KQ&noredirect=1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgRtQh7j_KQ&noredirect=1 Shame on the the hooligans! :)
twobits 13y ago
All these "revolutions", are foreign secret agencies' creations. ..Downvote all you want, and ask for impossible to find evidence. Just read history.
random123455 13y ago
I would like to point to another perspective on what is happening. Like most, i hope, i try to make my views fit to the events that have/are happening rather than them being defined by my views. It seems that the protestors have no other clear goal in mind except joining the EU, this is very hard for a country like Ukraine where many people daily cross the border on their way to work, what happens to them does not concern the protestors. I wonder if there are Russians living in the west part of Ukraine, how violently would the protestors deal with them. Because it seems that the protestors are driven by their hatred towards not-signing the deal with Russia instead of EU. Also the current government of Ukraine has support, it is not like the whole of Ukraine has risen against it. But it is interesting that the ones who did in their lines have nazi supporters. Still one thing is clear, Russia EVIL/BAD, EU GOOD. Since these protestors are a bit on the violent side, what would happen to a Russian or an Ukrainian who supports the government in the protestors control area? They would probably feel their hatred on their own bodies. This is not the first time that something like this is happening.And the EU/USA always support the more radical parts of the society(with media, weapon support etc..) often leading to ethnic cleansing, and suppression of rights of some group of people. As in case with many countries where the west supported someone. Iraq, the radicals are taking how many lives per year? Libya, how many are suffering now since the intervention? Turkey and Kurds.Syria, somehow the people who eat their enemies hearts got supported by the USA/UK/GERMANY/TURKEY etc, and then they did not go in because of being outsmarted by the Chinese and Russians, but somehow the media already twisted it to seem that USA did not go to war because of Obama. The nations that have lived under sanctions placed by your politicians, under governments who pushed for your interests and promised growth and progress... The only thing that grows is the hatred. If EU really practices what it speak, as it obviously does not, and neither once are/were part of societies supported by the west tolerant towards their fellow human,even if many years have passed. Are the 'evil' that had to be fought against. One only needs to check on the rights of Serbs who are outside their ghettos our country. Who do not even have the right for their written language. The only thing EU needs is workforce, destroy Ukraine so they can get more workforce/consumers who are capable of sustaining their own economy. Some mention Baltic states as progress, because russians come and buy there since it is cheaper. But if it really helped so much, why did you lose so much of your population because of immigration to EU, is life hard but you have option to get away? Is your economy not working? At least you have cheaper products because yours were not protected by your politicians and had to close down because they can not compete? It seems that one more part of society who are driven by hatred is supported by the civilized and superior leaders of the world to who we should look up to. I wonder when will they start directing their hatred on Russians/Ukrainians who do not support their views? Also, because of immigration in EU how much time do you have before the radical parts of your societies collide inside your home countries? Divide and conquer.
PavlovsCat 13y ago
http://www.neweasterneurope.eu/articles-and-commentary/1061-open-letter-from-ukrainian-writer-yuri-andrukhovych http://www.neweasterneurope.eu/articles-and-commentary/1061-... > When darkness falls on Kyiv, unidentified groups of “people in civilian clothes” roam the city, hunting for the young people, especially those who wear the symbols of the Maidan or the European Union. They kidnap them and take them out into forests, where they are stripped and tortured in fiercely cold weather. For some strange reason the victims of such actions are overwhelmingly young artists: actors, painters, poets. One feels that some strange “death squadrons” have been released in the country with an assignment to wipe out all that is best in it. And while the upvotes for the story climb, the story itself drops slowly but surely off the front page, because a killswitch has been toggled, because "HN is not for politics", not even a revolution with unprecedented live coverage on the internet. i.e. a new development. When some guy in the tech scene -- not an engineer or hacker or anything, a marketing guy for a tech firm -- dies, the story being completely unrelated to technology, that's okay, the discussion may take it's course, going off a billion tangents because otherwise there would be nothing to talk about. He's "one of us", after all. Are those young people not also of us? Is one single frontpage slot, out of thirty, too much to ask, for people to discuss and share information? Shameful.
amurmann 13y ago
Regardless who is in the right here, I don't understand why all the protesters keep going to that square where all the cops are. One of those Molotov cocktails they keep throwing could probably be used more efficiently anywhere else in the city with so many cops in that one square. I am sure there must be plenty of worthwhile targets that pretty much have their pants down right now. Police stations, buildings associated with Yanukovich and his party... I am sure there is any number of places where a few guys with molotovs could be used better than at that battlefield of a square.
Oculus 13y ago
I've been thinking about this all day. How could we, as hackers, build tools that allow for such activist groups to organize online, but yet keep these plans safe from the government?
nice1 13y ago
Russia has not accepted the fall of the Soviet Empire and has been trying to roll things back at least since 1999. Ukraine is very important for them and they will not let go of it easily.
kolev 13y ago
I am sorry, but this isn't a revolution! The protesters are a minority. Democracy works differently - at least there are free elections in Ukraine! Joining the EU or not should be decided by a referendum, not by a few criminals destroying the the city and turning it into a shithole! I only wonder why Europe is excited to welcome barbarians and neo-nazis who beat up and set police officers on fire! Well, it's easy to play a man when you know the police officers are ordered not to carry guns and not to respond to provocations! Also, a lot of people don't know that George Soros is fueling this along with the US - they don't even shy away of hiding this fact! The video with the arrested naked guy that has circulated also hides an important detail - the guy poured flammable liquid on himself and wanted to set himself on fire, yet, the journos are saving these details and only let you see what works best for them! I am really disgusted by seeing this shortly after Syria, where the US is, again and again, on the wrong side! Why didn't the US condemned Turkey's actions against the protesters there? Well, Turkey is an ally! Why isn't US condemning the way gay people are treated in Saudi Arabia? Well, Saudi Arabia is an ally! Yeah, make a boxer a president, and good luck, Ukraine! Or good luck joining the sinking ship of the EU! When Euroscepticism is becoming more stronger of a movement by every day passing and some are considering leaving the EU, others want to join! Again, good luck!
DonGateley 13y ago
The age of the fighters is truly impressive. In the U.S. it would be kids. That makes it look a whole lot more serious to me.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
koshak 13y ago
I'm very sorry that our slavic neighbours behave so badly. It is not a revolution, it's the rampage of anarchy and laziness. Just another approval of the 95% rule. Ukraine has no strong elite. People who come to power are just short-sighted beggars. They see the golden antelope and ask her for gold, more gold[1]. And finish like the greedy raja. That's obvious and predictable. It's the greatest diplomatic failure to push dumb poor people to power. Hi there, western polittechnology! Look at Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Ukraine(so-called "orange revo" in 2004 and now - just the same) Promote quasi-democracy and push the weak leader to power. You'll get unstabilized entity, unable to produce any decent products or services and... just.. repeat when it seems to get a little stronger than needed?! If you want a real success story, read the fucking history of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution Well that's the real deal. Just this for instance: "The Russian Empire, which had withdrawn from the war in 1917 after the October Revolution, lost much of its western frontier as the newly independent nations of Estonia, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, and Poland were carved from it. Romania took control of Bessarabia in April 1918." [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWsP71Odht4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWsP71Odht4
spovzner 13y ago
FYI: https://twitter.com/search?q=%23digitalmaidan https://twitter.com/search?q=%23digitalmaidan

Revolution in Kiev

496 points by eigenvector 13y ago

f_salmon 13y ago

How well are these events being reported in the media (US), in your view?

mlvljr 13y ago
With all the usual truthfulness, of course. (looking from Russia)
yazmeya 13y ago
Very poorly. There's virtually nothing on the majors' home pages (e.g., only WSJ has it above the fold now), and blogs latch on to fiery pictures only. Much better coverage @ Reuters and BBC.

jwr 13y ago

Did anyone else notice how refreshing this kind of reporting feels after being used to what the mainstream media feeds us? This story is low-key, trying to present all aspects, trying to stay objective -- it's been a long time since I read something like this from a journalist.

sekasi 13y ago
This. So much this. The article is not trying to drum dramatics or hype or anything that western media is brainwashed to do with everything. It's just simple, honest and very brutal.
danieldk 13y ago
It's not that different how the media in my home country (The Netherlands, e.g. 'Nieuwsuur') have been reporting in Syria and are starting to report Ukraine - in the trenches, literally on the fronts, following and interviewing people on both sides. Of course, everyone already knew that CNN and others are garbage. If the reality doesn't align with their great capitalism fairytale where Bono is the pinnacle of humanism, they will make it fit ;).
pgeorgi 13y ago
Reading the report, I can't say it's objective - on the contrary it's rather biased, but it doesn't try to conceal it. That alone made it more useful reporting for me than many other things I've read about the situation recently where I had to try to figure out what the hidden bias is (and account for it appropriately).
adobriyan 13y ago
Note, he wrote story in English to make it repostable in western internets, so to influence public opinion in necessary way, namely, "people came out against Yanukovich". You know, kinda push our western friends to intervene.
- dmytrish 13y ago
  I follow Varlamov's elucidation of the events and I must say that his blog is very influential in Russian segment of the internet and it deserves this. So he published the translation after multiple requests.
tomh 13y ago
Keep in mind that it is a combination of the last few posts he's made in Russian, each one trying to deliver an impartial message of what is going on in Kiev. His previous post was even entitled, "Maidan through the eyes of the police and Berkut" so he is trying to be as impartial as he can: http://zyalt.livejournal.com/984379.html http://zyalt.livejournal.com/984379.html

hooande 13y ago

This is an amazingly low tech revolution. The primary weapons of the protestors are: smoke, flammable liquid, rocks, shields and giant slingshots. These tools could have been used in the Peloponeasian War as easily as in 2014. It really says something about the character of the revolutionaries that they are willing to fight without modern weapons or equipment. I don't know enough about the Urkaine to asses the merit of their politics, but I am inclined to side with the group that has old women and children pitching in to help with logistics. There aren't just criminals and malcontents. Right or wrong, these people feel strongly about their cause. The courage these activists are showing is going to do a lot to help accomplish their political goals. Every day that they hold out will increase the volume of their message. When I originally heard about this I thought it was more of a violent uprising. But the protestors are fighting with fireworks and laser pointers. This kind of aggressive non-violence will play better in the media once more people learn about the details. If the number of casualties remains low this could turn into an Eastern European Tahrir Square, with hopefully positive benefits for the whole region.

IgorPartola 13y ago
Gun ownership I Ukraine is pretty restrictive: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/ukraine http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/ukraine. Given these events it is probably a good thing otherwise a lot more people would be dead now.
- chmike 13y ago
  Yes but what can we expect from Putin who is obviously behind the political decision to turn their back to europe ?
  - gritzko 13y ago
    Putin is temporarily hobbled by the Olympiad (potential boycott and everything).
- smsm42 13y ago
  You are aware of the fact that strict gun laws don't mean no guns? Your own link shows there are 3 million guns in Ukraine. If there's a need, some of them - probably hundreds of them - would find their way to the hostilities. But I'm not sure there is the will to escalate the situation this far. Because then the next step is using the army and heavy weaponry, and that means civil war and massive casualties. No one really wants that to happen.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

bluekeybox 13y ago
As someone not very familiar with the Turkish situation, would you mind sharing which specific Turkish protests you're referring to that remind you of this one? Thanks.
- dombili 13y ago
  Sure. I was referring to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_protests_in_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_protests_in_Turkey.

mxpxrocks10 13y ago

pretty nuts! thanks for posting!!

shangxiao 13y ago

Reading this to the tune of Louis Armstrong's Wonderful World

rosser 13y ago

I feel like this kind of thing (the various Arab Spring uprisings, the Ukrainian revolution, &c) is very well served by the cacophony of amateur/citizen journalism that flows out of an individual event. Sure, at the time, it's incredibly noisy, because there's so much primary source material being created, with such incredible depth and nuance. Once people start to be able to assemble a comprehensive understanding of what actually went down, however, it tends more accurately to reflect the reality of events, and makes it much harder for spin and propaganda to dictate the narrative. That's, I think, the ultimate goal of democratizing media. But I'm also notoriously an optimist about this kind of thing, so, you know: cup of salt, please take with.

yetanotherphd 13y ago
A lot of what seems to be grassroots could be aided, and perhaps even orchestrated, by sophisticated groups with a political agenda, e.g. the CIA. It would only take around 10-20 bloggers to create the illusion that the majority people in the country felt a certain way. EDIT: and nowadays, they wouldn't just blog, they would post to Reddit, and maybe even HN.
- rosser 13y ago
  True enough. But my extended social circle includes a number of people of Ukrainian nationality and/or descent. Everything I've heard from them (which is, granted, not a lot; I haven't been tracking these events terribly actively, let alone vis-à-vis their perspectives) tends to corroborate what I'm seeing in this blog post, at least.
  - yetanotherphd 13y ago
    There is a very significant pro-Western bias amongst educated people who have moved to the West. If you just looked at educated Chinese immigrants during the last 50 years, you would never guess at the overwhelming support for the communist party.
    - 13y ago

epicureanideal 13y ago

Thanks for the translation!

tsurantino 13y ago

One thing really stood out to me about this protest, and that is how isolated and targeted it is against government. The writer mentioned how no shopkeepers are affected, and that protesting is specifically barricaded around the government district. Irrespective of the violence and damage taking place, that there is no collateral means that we can't detract from the focus of the issue.

desireco42 13y ago
That is very hard to believe :) and naive assertion, all reports point out to very aggressive 'protesters' that attack security forces to provoke their reaction and that whole nature of protest is changing towards violence and aggression.
- cdash 13y ago
  He said it is targeted at the government and not that there was no violence at all. I personally don't have any problem with them attacking security forces when it is the security forces that initiated the violence to begin with.
- spikels 13y ago
  Do you have a dog in this fight? Read the post then if you disagree present some evidence. What "all reports"? Here's a balanced one that disagrees with your claim: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/world/europe/ukrainian-president-offers-top-posts-to-opposition-leaders.html?hp&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/world/europe/ukrainian-pre... By 'protestors' do you mean they are not protestors? If so what are they? I suspect you get all your information from Russian government sources. Right?
- lostlogin 13y ago
  This is your second post that disputes this blog but you offer no evidence to support your claims. The photos of intact shops and first hand accounts are supplies in the blog post. What is your involvement or interest? The story offered here is pretty compelling I thought.
- 13y ago

sillysaurus2 13y ago

A protester in Kiev did an IAmA on Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1w17qn/iama_protestor_in_kyiv_ukraine/ http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1w17qn/iama_protestor_... According to him, "Russia is trying to keep all the former Soviet Union satellite countries under control, and that is the root cause of the rioting."

pinaceae 13y ago
back in 2006 i started a bet with a friend, i wagered that within 10 years the russian army would enter ukrainian soil. the excuse being restoring order/peace. it's a 100 eur bet. i'd hate to win actually, but fuck, it's getting closer and closer. the eastern provinces are russian vs. the west, which is sort of european/polish. civil war is close.
higherpurpose 13y ago
They've already lost Moldavia recently, and didn't they lose Georgia, too? I don't think they can keep them under control much longer.
- Sanddancer 13y ago
  They're losing a lot of the political clout they held over their former puppets. The Baltic states have been making closer and closer ties to the eurozone as well, along with Romania, etc. The Ukraine feels very much like a last stand of Russia, which may explain why they're placing so much pressure on the heads of government there.
- Mikeb85 13y ago
  > They've already lost Moldavia recently, and didn't they lose Georgia, too? The Rose Revolution gang were ousted in the most recent elections in Georgia...
  - tomh 13y ago
    And former Georgian President Saakashvili is coming to the USA to teach, as a Senior Statesman: http://fletcher.tufts.edu/News-and-Media/2013/12/20/President-Mikheil-Saakashvili-of-the-Republic-of-Georgia-to-Join-Fletcher-School-as-Senior-Statesman?utm_source=homepage&utm_medium=banner&utm_campaign=Saakashvili http://fletcher.tufts.edu/News-and-Media/2013/12/20/Presiden...

nate_meurer 13y ago

The photography here is absolutely incredible. This situation is really frightening to me. I so hope that the Ukraine can get out from underneath her oppressors (yes I mean Yanukovitch and Putin) without descending any further into chaos.

news_to_me 13y ago
I'm a bit uninformed; is there any recent precedent for a revolt like this succeeding? Honestly I'm a little skeptical that a revolution of this sort could ultimately defeat a vastly better-funded power without overwhelming popular support.
- prostoalex 13y ago
  Ukraine in 2004 worked out, albeit short-term. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution
  - Mikeb85 13y ago
    Yes, Yanukovych won the next elections when there was less western interference...
    - ajuc 13y ago
      Consider this - Yushchenko let the people decide. Do you really think Yanukovych will do the same in next elections? Will Yanukovych just let the people vote him out of the office? He has no chance to win again in honest elections, and he already faked the elections before orange revolution. He was in prison twice for theft, he is a criminal. How do you think people can trust him to do the right thing? His family become very rich very quickly. He jailed opposition candidate. He changed constitution to make it harder to protest. The EU partnership thing was just the last straw. People don't want to be stuck with Yanukovych forever, and now is last chance to get rid of him.
aquadrop 13y ago

girvo 13y ago

Wow. That photography is mind blowing, as is the entire situation. I hope the small number of casualties remains low as it has. Also, props to them for not looting the businesses on the front line, usually that seems to be what happens! But this seems different, somehow.

bluekeybox 13y ago
It's different because, unlike OWS, this is not an "eat the rich" protest. This is a protest against an authoritarian foreign power imposing its will on what (briefly) has been an independent country.

mladenkovacevic 13y ago

Reading stuff like this is a wonderful way to remind me how naive and easy to manipulate people generally are.

yetanotherphd 13y ago
who do you think is being manipulated? Statements like that are useless without some elaboration.
- mladenkovacevic 13y ago
  The protesters are manipulated into thinking that joining EU and getting rid of Yanukovich is somehow the first step to prosperity... And the blogosphere is manipulated into buying this as some kind of completely spontaneous grass roots movement. Sure people want change.. But this is bankrolled elsewhere.. I bet it wasn't that expensive either.
  - yetanotherphd 13y ago
    I agree (see my other post in this thread). But I don't know much about Ukraine. It would be great if you would post a detailed analysis as a top level post.
  - spikels 13y ago
    Bankrolled by who? EU? US? Who? And do you have any evidence? BTW-Do you get your news from RT?
    - memracom 13y ago
      It could even have been bankrolled from Russia. Even though I speak Russian and some Ukrainian, and I have followed current events in both countries for years, I can't figure out what is actually going on here. Yes, it could be another dumb move by the Americans who have a real habit of foot in mouth internationally, but it could just as well be part of a clever complex multi-year gambit by the Russians who have a strong tradition of playing chess, not just around a table with wooden game pieces, but in international politics as well.

desireco42 13y ago

Stunning photography. What I see here is large scale destruction of presumably their city by it's citizens. I don't see how anything good can come out of mass hysteria and destruction. Edit... I don't believe for a moment and based on numerous other reports in the media, that assertions about peacefulness of this protest are true or represent anything but something that poster would like to be. Doesn't sound likely and no-one else is reporting it, so most likely is wishful thinking.

adamnemecek 13y ago
At the same time though, peaceful protests only go that far.
- BlackDeath3 13y ago
  Right. I think that "violence is never the answer!" is a very first-world perspective.
news_to_me 13y ago
Did you read the whole post? It actually seems relatively organized and non-destructive—not a single window broken, according to the report. For now, it sounds like everyone is united against the Berkut. I'd hardly call it hysteria.
rosser 13y ago
From TFA: 3. "The entire Kiev is paralyzed, there is no peaceful life for the regular people." Kiev is living its own life. All stores and cafes are working, people are going to work, study in universities, get married, divorce and even die their own death. Most of the Kiev populace are not inconvenienced. Imagine if Navalny took over the Red Square and set up his camp there. What would change for you, Moscovites? Nothing. So the only people who are inconvenienced are toruists. A few stores and cafes had to close down in the very center. Also, those living in the center have troubles with logistics. But the entire Kiev is not paralyzed. So, no, the city isn't being destroyed. (At least not yet.)
TerraHertz 13y ago

higherpurpose 13y ago

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - John F. Kennedy You'd think oppressive leaders would learn that lesson by now. But no, it seems we're more likely doomed to repeat it in cycles, over and over again. I wonder what those politicians who come up with the idea of "hey, let's make protesting virtually impossible. That will all our problems!". They need to understand that protesting is that an effect of a cause. If the cause isn't fixed, those issues and frustrations the people have won't just go away. They will build up, until they explode.

TerraHertz 13y ago
Given the character of the president as described here http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/maydan/maydan.html http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/maydan/maydan.... (by someone who's opinion I trust) I strongly doubt the man has the capability to learn anything, let alone lessons from history.
bluekeybox 13y ago
I don't mean to get personal, but your post is surprisingly content-free. Everyone in the pro-government party understands what this protest is about. Yanukovich may be portrayed as non-intellectual, but he has read his Machiavelli and knows how to maneuver. In addition, he has an equally ardent, albeit much less vociferous voter base as the opposition, plus a network of government-connected oligarchs who run the show from behind the scenes. In this case, the future of the country has a clear schism. You cannot simultaneously sign a pact with Russia while opening the door to European market. It's one or the other, black or white, as made clear by Mr. Putin.

TerraHertz 13y ago

A couple more links from a Ukrainian lady I greatly respect. http://www.elenafilatova.com/ http://www.elenafilatova.com/ http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/maydan/maydan.html http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/maydan/maydan.... Who remembers 'Chernobyl Gal? The biker who takes solitary rides through the Chernobyl closed zone, and publishes photo journals of them. These are her sites. From an entirely different angle, there's probably a lot of truth in this person's comments too: http://www.barnhardt.biz/2014/01/23/ukraine-you-better-pay-attention-because-it-thats-how-its-going-to-play-out-here/ http://www.barnhardt.biz/2014/01/23/ukraine-you-better-pay-a...

altero 13y ago

I wonder if somebody actually read EU treaty (reason for all this protests). Signing it would pretty much kill industry and criple agriculture at Ukraine.

bluekeybox 13y ago
None of the people protesting have any illusion as to how long it would take to join EU or that it would be painless. Moreover, joining (or not joining the EU) is not even the main point of the protests. The point of the protests is preventing a Russian-controlled mafia government from taking over the country's future.
prostoalex 13y ago
Can you point to specific paragraphs that would do such things?
- altero 13y ago
  For start Ukraine treaty does not handle subsidies. So France and other countries would be able to 'dump' their subsidized agricaltural product on Ukranien market. Ukraine farmers do not get subsidy, they have higher prices and would eventually bankrupt. Industry is concetrated on east and exports/imports mainly to Russia. EU would make it very hard to trade with Russia. Factories could not sell product and could not import materials. Joining EU is long process which takes years of negotiation. Poland is good example. But just signing whatever EU throws your direction is very bad deal.
  - prostoalex 13y ago
    > For start Ukraine treaty does not handle subsidies. Article 32.1 states: "Upon entry into force of this Agreement, no Party shall maintain, introduce or reintroduce export subsidies or other measures with equivalent effect on agricultural goods destined for the territory of the other Party." And then it relegates the finer details to WTO treaties, which Ukraine already signed. > EU would make it very hard to trade with Russia. Which part of the agreement would make it difficult?

nate_martin 13y ago

Cached: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:59ucRnLNiPIJ:zyalt.livejournal.com/984735.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:59ucRnL...

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

kulesh 13y ago

Vote it up on Reddit (I am not the one who posted the link over there, of course). http://www.reddit.com/submit?url=http%3A%2F%2Fzyalt.livejournal.com%2F984735.html http://www.reddit.com/submit?url=http%3A%2F%2Fzyalt.livejour...

Mikeb85 13y ago

The reality distortion field the protesters have formed is impressive. They've completely overshadowed a few key points: - The Yanukovych government offered a power-sharing agreement with the opposition, offering Yatsenyuk the PM position and Klitschko the deputy PM job, which the opposition rejected: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-oppositions-rejects-viktor-yanukovych-s-concessions-1.2509259 http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-oppositions-rejects-vik... - The fascist element - one of the opposition leaders, Oleh Tyahnybok, leads a fascist party (Svoboda) and has openly spread anti-Semitic rhetoric, and aligned itself with extremist groups. Fairly common knowledge to anyone in the know... You can see the fascist and neo-nazi symbols on many of the protesters. http://en.ria.ru/images/18519/41/185194148.jpg http://en.ria.ru/images/18519/41/185194148.jpg The flags with 3 fingers are Svoboda's symbol, the red and black ones are UPA flags, which are the symbol of a group that collaborated with the Nazis, and are used by fascist groups in Ukraine. - The protesters have been the most violent force during the protests. In what country do police stand by when Molotov cocktails and fireworks are fired at them? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h22oHs3eiLg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h22oHs3eiLg - And finally, Yanukovych was not only democratically elected, but because of the split amongst the opposition factions, the PoR will likely win any election that is devoid of outside interference... After the 'Orange Revolution' the opposition united with Yushchenko, now there's 3 large opposition groups (Fatherland, 'Punch', and Svoboda). Considering half the country firmly supports the Party of Regions, the opposition are unlikely to win anything. Edit - more fascist imagery at the protests: http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/kiev-maidan1.jpg http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/kiev-maidan1.jp... http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/kiev-maidan2.jpg http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/kiev-maidan2.jp... Edit2 - the Svoboda/Oleh Tyahnybok fascist/anti-Semitic connection: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTjezCzo-BQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTjezCzo-BQ http://www.ibtimes.com/svoboda-rising-spectre-neo-nazism-ukraine-974110 http://www.ibtimes.com/svoboda-rising-spectre-neo-nazism-ukr... These are the words of Oleh Tyahnybok: "They did not fear, but took up their automatic rifles, going into the woods to fight Muscovites, Germans, Jewry and other filth which wanted to take away our Ukrainian nationhood. It’s time to give Ukraine to the Ukrainians. Like them, you are most feared by the Moscow-Jewish mafia which today runs Ukraine" http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/oleg-tyanhybok.jpg http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/oleg-tyanhybok....

memracom 13y ago

Just remember that everything you read/see about Ukraine is propaganda published by someone who is trying to get you to agree with their point of view. They are careful to select their photos to not show the things that they don't want you to know about. For instance, these photos careful do not show the neo-nazi far right groups, the people with handguns, or the police being hit by flaming molotov cocktails or wounded by fireworks. Of course the other side similarly delivers an edited message. But the bottom line is that none of this is democracy. Whatever it is, it has to end sometime so that all the groups of people who live in Ukraine can sit down, discuss their differences, find compromises and live in peace. Only then will Ukraine really be a nation. Until then it is just a corner of the Soviet Union that has failed to catch up with the modern world.

IgorPartola 13y ago
Bullshit. The people cannot sit down with this criminal president and discuss anything. Ones that do end up in prison: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko. He is stealing from the people (http://m.spiegel.de/international/world/a-833127.html http://m.spiegel.de/international/world/a-833127.html) and is actively suppressing all forms of the opposition. Apply your logic to the American revolution and see just how absurd it starts to sound. The please stop trolling.
- x0x0 13y ago
  end up in prison and beaten (did they cause her spinal issues or just prevent treatment?)
bluekeybox 13y ago
> Until then it is just a corner of the Soviet Union that has failed to catch up with the modern world. Sounding a little patronizing here, no?
memracom 13y ago
Yes, I feel rather superior being a dual citizen of a NAFTA country which gets along with its neighbors, and an EU country which also gets along with its neighbors. I simply do not agree with any political movement that is based on demonizing a group of citizens of your own country or based on demonizing a country which is a neighbor. Given that Ukrainians seem to be doing both, I am quite smug and patronising about that fact. In the end they have to stop shouting, and vilifying. They have to start talking and be willing to find compromises. That's the only way that will work in the 21st century.

washedup 13y ago

I have no idea what is going on in Kiev, but these images are amazing.

menato 13y ago

Just for comparison: alternative photo set of same Kiev in the same time: http://tema.livejournal.com/1589937.html http://tema.livejournal.com/1589937.html Photography is a great thing: with a proper selection one could change opinion of viewer pretty strong.

IgorPartola 13y ago

Man, the amount of disdain people have for protesters in the comments to this story is really shocking. I do not exactly understand where it's coming from. Yanukovych is a corrupt petty thief and rapist, turned politician, who has very close ties with Russia, and is stealing from the Ukrainian people through corruption. He rigged an election in 2004 and only massive riots prevented him from coming into power then by forcing a new vote. In any civilized country any of these individual issues would have prevented him from being eligible to be president. The basic political problem in Ukraine is that Russia still has lots of influence over it, and Russia sees it as its territory separated temporarily after the breakup of the USSR. Ukraine is dependent on Russia for things like natural gas, and thus cannot simply break away from the abusive relationship. Russia naturally has an interest in having a political puppet in power in Ukraine. Who better to do this than a convicted felon like Yanukovych? This is how the riots started this time around: to protest the sudden pro-Russian turn of the Yanukovych administration. Ukraine has for some time now faced the tough choice: continue its abusive but familiar relationship with Russia or turn to Europe and risk everything to try to build a new relationship with the EU? IMO, until Ukraine grows a spine and does what's best for its people long term, it will continue getting into situations like this. Yanukovych, while completely corrupt, is not the ultimate evil. He is a lackey that will be replaced if he is ousted. The real issue here is Russia.

thesz 13y ago
Those commenters have very justified disdain. They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case. My (not only mine's, actually) conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics and former states from the Socialist block, including Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc. Never mind that burning car tires means producing benzopirenes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo%28a%29pyrene http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo%28a%29pyrene Those compounds are 1000 times more harmful than lead. They are making Kiev to be very bad for living quite fast. So, in short, protesters are stupid judging from several points of view.
- IgorPartola 13y ago
  Oh man. I cannot see how what you are saying makes sense. First, joining the EU and trading with the EU are different things. We are talking about a very low level of commitment here for what originally started these riots. Please tell us how reducing corruption and creating a trade agreement with the EU a bad thing for Ukraine? Second, what does burning tires have to do with anything about this political situation? What would you do if you living in Kiev right now? Reading more of these comments I am starting to think that most people who express this disdain are really just trolling for Russia.

ok_craig 13y ago

Best quote: "war is war, but everyone needs to updates pics in social networks"

KaiserPro 13y ago

Whats interesting is that this view seems to tally fairly well with BBC's world service's view.

dodyg 13y ago

Greetings from Cairo. I will you all good luck in Ukraine, especially in Maidan Sq.

antonmks 13y ago

More videos : government building takeover in Vinnitsa, Ukraine : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi_B637FCDY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi_B637FCDY

znowi 13y ago

Ukraine has been historically divided into pro-West Ukraine in the west and pro-Russia Ukraine in the east. I think the only peaceful resolution to this conflict is having two independent states.

bluekeybox 13y ago
Actually there is (or at least use to be) an idea of "progress". The hope was that people in the predominantly Russian-speaking Eastern regions would eventually "convert" politically to a pro-European direction because a primary driver of the pro-Russian leanings (other than cultural factors) was a positive memory of industrialization by the USSR which brought them jobs and a better way of life. The idea was that the older generation who remembered the glory of the USSR would eventually become replaced with a less Russia-centric one. Unfortunately this hasn't exactly played out to the extent it was hoped for.

fromdoon 13y ago

Here in India, we have also witnessed a series of street agitations against a corrupt political system that runs most of the country. Though, It hasn't crossed the line, yet, and turned into violent protests like Kiev. There are many things which have happened in the 21st century, but the rise of frequent civilian protests around the world is certainly the one that stands out. I am not a student of history, but this is the first time I am becoming more and more aware of such restlessness in the citizens of the world. I guess, this is a kind of cycle. Political systems rise, become stable and stay for some time and then slowly the rot begins, which when reaches a certain tipping point, forces the masses to rise to make correction and then the cycles repeats. The only difference being the timeline of the cycle, which seems to differ from region to region and from country to country. I am sure there must be some literature/research dedicated to this phenomena.

tiatia 13y ago

There are two forces clashing. US supported groups (That basically want Ukraine to be part of the EU) and Pro Russian groups (supported by good ol' Putin). Let's hope it all ends well. This is the Bozo who thought it all up: http://www.amazon.com/The-Grand-Chessboard-Geostrategic-Imperatives/dp/0465027261 http://www.amazon.com/The-Grand-Chessboard-Geostrategic-Impe...

bluekeybox 13y ago
It's an (somewhat distorted) oversimplification to call this a Cold-War style chess game. Both groups are authentic, i.e. people in Western Ukraine genuinely feel closer to the West while people in Eastern Ukraine genuinely do feel closer to Russia. The US influence is nearly non-existent (if you discount Hollywood movies of course) while Russia exerts very significant influence by placing economic pressure (such as banning imports from "misbehaving" countries that were formerly a part of the USSR), providing PR expertise to Russian-supporting political parties, and so on.
- tiatia 13y ago
  I agree that Ukraine is a divided country. This being said: Just recently a newspaper in Beijing had a comic showing the Ukraine as a car. Uncle Sam was shown trying to stir the stirring wheel. This gives you an idea. Trust me, the US has a strong strong interest of the Ukraine breaking away from US influence.
  - bluekeybox 13y ago
    > the US has a strong strong interest of the Ukraine breaking away from US influence Sure it does. However, don't you understand that all runner-up or would-be superpowers (China, Russia, etc) have a vested interest in portraying US influence as being the driving force behind anything bad happening anywhere? > Just recently a newspaper in Beijing had a comic showing the Ukraine as a car. Uncle Sam was shown trying to stir the stirring wheel. This gives you an idea. So that's where you get your news from? How about you learn some Ukrainian and find out what the actual situation is on the ground?

_random_ 13y ago

This is not a revolution. The political type of society is not going to change. The rioters are not supported by the population.

ajuc 13y ago
Strange that Ukrainians I know all support it.
- _random_ 13y ago
  I know both kinds. What would you personally choose: a corrupt government or a revolt that was designed by someone outside of your country with their own agenda?
  - ajuc 13y ago
    How do you know it was designed by someone outside? And why does it matter anyway? Do you seriosuly thing all these people protesting were paid by CIA? For 3 months? Some of them - I agree. Just like some of them were paid by Russia to make the protesters look bad. That's how politics go. In the end the biggest group is still the people that came there cause they wanted to protest. And don't you think they have valid reasons to protest? Do you think what Yanukovych did is good or bad for Ukraine? I mean the whole set of anti-demonstration and anti-press laws. It's almost martial law. Is it OK with you? Better alternative to what exactly? Do you think he will let go of the power by himself? Or are you ok with benevolent dictator for life? It's how it always been in USSR, right? No point in leaving important matters to people. I was 6 when Poland become independent in 1989. I don't remember much, just empty shelves gray people and standing with my mother in queues forever. But my parents and the whole family do. Nineties was hard but in the end it all worked out OK. Poland is much better place now. Do I care who started the protests - nope. Do I think there were some foreign agencies and conspiracies in this? Probably there were. Both Soviet and American. In the end regular people decided. Soviets had the whole country, the army, press, censorship, party, everything. Americans had radio free Europe and Hollywood movies to "brainwash" us. And Russians were brainwashing us every bit as hard as Americans, with schools, media, holidays, incentives to be a party memeber, everything. Still couldn't hide the fact that system was broken by design and worked worse every year. People decided the revolution, not secret agencies.

PavlovsCat 13y ago

A lot of things and links here: http://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/ http://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/ A fixed cam view of a part of maidan, online 24/7 so far: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/euromajdan/pop-out http://www.ustream.tv/channel/euromajdan/pop-out and last, but not least: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/press-club http://www.ustream.tv/channel/press-club <- the live coverage is spotty, but do look for "olya" in the sidebar (you have to click "more" for them to show up) for some guided tours around maidan and interviews with protesters by an english speaking journalist. Highly recommended. There are of course many more feeds and videos, but you will find them all in the above subreddit (in /r/europe and /r/worldnews, too)

solyanyk 13y ago

The comments here are truly amazing! People who never had to protect their constitutional freedoms or human rights against a real, brutal, force, who were simply lucky enough to be born in places with long and established traditions of democracy (something their ancestors actually did have to struggle for), smugly judging people who risk their lives standing up for their values in place where human rights meant nothing for centuries. "OMG people are so easy to manipulate", "This smoke is damn unpleasant, is it really necessary?", "Can't they just talk to each other like normal people"... Unbelievable.

vitalique 13y ago

Two things that especially amaze about the actual 'street part' of Ukrainian revolution are complete absence of plundering or looting of local shops and that no firearms have been used by protesters.

deletes 13y ago
I think mostly because the protest are very localized. Apart from that street, the city( and country ) is operating as usual. Shops and businesses are operating and civilians are going to work. The protest are mostly after work activity. That is why the largest fights take place in the evening and night.
- vdaniuk 13y ago
  ^^ This comment is misinformation. More than 10 regional administrations are currently under control of protestors and there are mass protests in most regional centers in Ukraine. This is a map of protests. http://inspired.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/oda-map-26_01_15_00.jpg http://inspired.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/oda-map-26... Legend: Red means regional administration buildings are under control of protestors. Pinkish are regions where protestors block the administration buildings of were unsuccessful at capturing them. Brownish? means mass protests are occurring.
  - deletes 13y ago
    ^^ This comment is misinformation. You didn't post any proof, so you see, anyone can do that. According to you, half of the country is involved in the protest and not going to work( >20 million !!), I highly doubt that the whole country is at halt. I have only seen and read about protest in the very center of Kiev. Around of the Independence Square, Hrushevsky Street and its neighboring streets. All I stated was posted in the foreign media and blogs( truthful or not ), unfortunately I don't have the time to backtrack and search to provide the necessary links. I would love to hear some reliable information to confirm any statements.

mlvljr 13y ago

The view from the other side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgRtQh7j_KQ&noredirect=1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgRtQh7j_KQ&noredirect=1 Shame on the the hooligans! :)

twobits 13y ago

All these "revolutions", are foreign secret agencies' creations. ..Downvote all you want, and ask for impossible to find evidence. Just read history.

random123455 13y ago

I would like to point to another perspective on what is happening. Like most, i hope, i try to make my views fit to the events that have/are happening rather than them being defined by my views. It seems that the protestors have no other clear goal in mind except joining the EU, this is very hard for a country like Ukraine where many people daily cross the border on their way to work, what happens to them does not concern the protestors. I wonder if there are Russians living in the west part of Ukraine, how violently would the protestors deal with them. Because it seems that the protestors are driven by their hatred towards not-signing the deal with Russia instead of EU. Also the current government of Ukraine has support, it is not like the whole of Ukraine has risen against it. But it is interesting that the ones who did in their lines have nazi supporters. Still one thing is clear, Russia EVIL/BAD, EU GOOD. Since these protestors are a bit on the violent side, what would happen to a Russian or an Ukrainian who supports the government in the protestors control area? They would probably feel their hatred on their own bodies. This is not the first time that something like this is happening.And the EU/USA always support the more radical parts of the society(with media, weapon support etc..) often leading to ethnic cleansing, and suppression of rights of some group of people. As in case with many countries where the west supported someone. Iraq, the radicals are taking how many lives per year? Libya, how many are suffering now since the intervention? Turkey and Kurds.Syria, somehow the people who eat their enemies hearts got supported by the USA/UK/GERMANY/TURKEY etc, and then they did not go in because of being outsmarted by the Chinese and Russians, but somehow the media already twisted it to seem that USA did not go to war because of Obama. The nations that have lived under sanctions placed by your politicians, under governments who pushed for your interests and promised growth and progress... The only thing that grows is the hatred. If EU really practices what it speak, as it obviously does not, and neither once are/were part of societies supported by the west tolerant towards their fellow human,even if many years have passed. Are the 'evil' that had to be fought against. One only needs to check on the rights of Serbs who are outside their ghettos our country. Who do not even have the right for their written language. The only thing EU needs is workforce, destroy Ukraine so they can get more workforce/consumers who are capable of sustaining their own economy. Some mention Baltic states as progress, because russians come and buy there since it is cheaper. But if it really helped so much, why did you lose so much of your population because of immigration to EU, is life hard but you have option to get away? Is your economy not working? At least you have cheaper products because yours were not protected by your politicians and had to close down because they can not compete? It seems that one more part of society who are driven by hatred is supported by the civilized and superior leaders of the world to who we should look up to. I wonder when will they start directing their hatred on Russians/Ukrainians who do not support their views? Also, because of immigration in EU how much time do you have before the radical parts of your societies collide inside your home countries? Divide and conquer.

PavlovsCat 13y ago

http://www.neweasterneurope.eu/articles-and-commentary/1061-open-letter-from-ukrainian-writer-yuri-andrukhovych http://www.neweasterneurope.eu/articles-and-commentary/1061-... > When darkness falls on Kyiv, unidentified groups of “people in civilian clothes” roam the city, hunting for the young people, especially those who wear the symbols of the Maidan or the European Union. They kidnap them and take them out into forests, where they are stripped and tortured in fiercely cold weather. For some strange reason the victims of such actions are overwhelmingly young artists: actors, painters, poets. One feels that some strange “death squadrons” have been released in the country with an assignment to wipe out all that is best in it. And while the upvotes for the story climb, the story itself drops slowly but surely off the front page, because a killswitch has been toggled, because "HN is not for politics", not even a revolution with unprecedented live coverage on the internet. i.e. a new development. When some guy in the tech scene -- not an engineer or hacker or anything, a marketing guy for a tech firm -- dies, the story being completely unrelated to technology, that's okay, the discussion may take it's course, going off a billion tangents because otherwise there would be nothing to talk about. He's "one of us", after all. Are those young people not also of us? Is one single frontpage slot, out of thirty, too much to ask, for people to discuss and share information? Shameful.

amurmann 13y ago

Regardless who is in the right here, I don't understand why all the protesters keep going to that square where all the cops are. One of those Molotov cocktails they keep throwing could probably be used more efficiently anywhere else in the city with so many cops in that one square. I am sure there must be plenty of worthwhile targets that pretty much have their pants down right now. Police stations, buildings associated with Yanukovich and his party... I am sure there is any number of places where a few guys with molotovs could be used better than at that battlefield of a square.

Oculus 13y ago

I've been thinking about this all day. How could we, as hackers, build tools that allow for such activist groups to organize online, but yet keep these plans safe from the government?

nice1 13y ago

Russia has not accepted the fall of the Soviet Empire and has been trying to roll things back at least since 1999. Ukraine is very important for them and they will not let go of it easily.

kolev 13y ago

I am sorry, but this isn't a revolution! The protesters are a minority. Democracy works differently - at least there are free elections in Ukraine! Joining the EU or not should be decided by a referendum, not by a few criminals destroying the the city and turning it into a shithole! I only wonder why Europe is excited to welcome barbarians and neo-nazis who beat up and set police officers on fire! Well, it's easy to play a man when you know the police officers are ordered not to carry guns and not to respond to provocations! Also, a lot of people don't know that George Soros is fueling this along with the US - they don't even shy away of hiding this fact! The video with the arrested naked guy that has circulated also hides an important detail - the guy poured flammable liquid on himself and wanted to set himself on fire, yet, the journos are saving these details and only let you see what works best for them! I am really disgusted by seeing this shortly after Syria, where the US is, again and again, on the wrong side! Why didn't the US condemned Turkey's actions against the protesters there? Well, Turkey is an ally! Why isn't US condemning the way gay people are treated in Saudi Arabia? Well, Saudi Arabia is an ally! Yeah, make a boxer a president, and good luck, Ukraine! Or good luck joining the sinking ship of the EU! When Euroscepticism is becoming more stronger of a movement by every day passing and some are considering leaving the EU, others want to join! Again, good luck!

DonGateley 13y ago

The age of the fighters is truly impressive. In the U.S. it would be kids. That makes it look a whole lot more serious to me.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

koshak 13y ago

I'm very sorry that our slavic neighbours behave so badly. It is not a revolution, it's the rampage of anarchy and laziness. Just another approval of the 95% rule. Ukraine has no strong elite. People who come to power are just short-sighted beggars. They see the golden antelope and ask her for gold, more gold[1]. And finish like the greedy raja. That's obvious and predictable. It's the greatest diplomatic failure to push dumb poor people to power. Hi there, western polittechnology! Look at Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Ukraine(so-called "orange revo" in 2004 and now - just the same) Promote quasi-democracy and push the weak leader to power. You'll get unstabilized entity, unable to produce any decent products or services and... just.. repeat when it seems to get a little stronger than needed?! If you want a real success story, read the fucking history of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution Well that's the real deal. Just this for instance: "The Russian Empire, which had withdrawn from the war in 1917 after the October Revolution, lost much of its western frontier as the newly independent nations of Estonia, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, and Poland were carved from it. Romania took control of Bessarabia in April 1918." [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWsP71Odht4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWsP71Odht4

spovzner 13y ago

FYI: https://twitter.com/search?q=%23digitalmaidan https://twitter.com/search?q=%23digitalmaidan