13 ms·

“We Just Can’t Have You Here”

• rdtsc 13y ago
  Schools don't give a shit about you. Whatever they do in these cases is driven by "What can we do to not lose money? What can we do to not get sued? What can we do to avoid a PR disaster?". Keeping that student is perceived a liability for them. As they honestly put it they don't really think they will be safer at home, and it is obvious they don't care what happens. They just don't want to deal with it. They see this person as a risk not worth taking. > If I were a liar, I would never have gotten myself into this mess. Fuck me for not being a liar. You sometimes have to be a liar when dealing with large bureaucratic systems. A large school is certainly one such thing. They do not have your best interests in mind. Healing you is not on their priority list. Be honest with people you trust and love. Don't treat institutions as moral agents. You'll even find sometimes your doctor's #1 priority might not be to heal you. Their goal could be to perform more surgeries. So all of the sudden you are told to get surgeries. Get second opinions. And so on.
  • judk 13y ago
    This observation isn't really a complaint about Yale or college in particular. Yale is not her parents, not her church, not the Connecticut Health Service, not the National Health Service. What does Yale owe her any more than all the rest of us owe her?
    • girvo 13y ago
      Yale is her community while she's there. That's why it matters.
    • rdtsc 13y ago
      Schools used to be thought of as parent-substitutes of sorts in the past. In loco parentis was used to refer to this idea. Women would be subject to curfews for example and so on. The idea is really about what she expected her school to be -- a welcoming community that will help her grow or something of that sort (she took the marketing flyers literally). Was she naive to believe that? A lot of young people make that mistake. Some from affluent small town communities have not had to deal with large bureaucracies before. This is their first go at it.
      • pdeuchler 13y ago
        In fact, may colleges make this a core tenant of their sales pitch... "We're a community here, you're not a number! Small class sizes! Professors get to know their students! The Dean gets breakfast in the dining hall with the freshman!" etc. etc.
      • secstate 13y ago
        This here is the crux of the issue. Young, impressionable people believing what the school is selling. And you can argue till the end of the Earth about who's fault it is, but the reality is that the world is full of people who are in turns impressionable and opportunistic. I loved my alma mater, but I also never for one second believed that anyone outside of the few professors I was close to and still keep in touch with, actually cared about me as a person. The author's experience with mental health issues was a perfect shit storm of being cut down after taking their warm-fuzzy message hook-line-and-sinker, AND a broken health care system in general. I would also argue there are no easy answers. It's not my place to suggest reforms, but if you're admitting someone to a psych ward and you know that at least one time they slashed their thigh open with a pocket knife, how can you possibly take their word for it that they aren't going to use the drawstring on their pants, or the plastic cover of a notebook to try self harm again? It's a no-win situation, and those are the worst. The best case would probably be to abolish psych wards and give everyone one-on-one access to a counselor 24-7 so they can hang out and be 100% sure they're not in danger. But I'd also note the world has moved "forward" a lot in terms of stigmas and treatment of the mentally ill. Is their room to improve, hell yes. But to ignore the almost death-camp like environments of the homes for the feeble minded just a century ago, we're doing okay.
        • DanBC 13y ago
          Removing ligatures is fine. Removing actual sharps is fine. I don't know the plastic binder, so maybe removing that is fine too. Making someone strip naked for a search is not fine. Giving an intimate search is also not fine. Threatening to restrain them to a bed is not fine. Keeping them in their room is not fine. Keeping them on a locked ward is not fine. Etc etc. If her account is accurate I am shocked by how bad her treatment was. I've attended many a&e units with someone with severe deliberate self harm (much worse than described in the article) and that person got much better treatment. Not just medical clinical treatment, but the humane stuff too.
    • pdeuchler 13y ago
      I can't tell if this is a joke or not. You do realize that going to a school like Yale costs almost $60,000 a year, right?
      • stephen 13y ago
        The $60k is for rendering an education, not providing psychiatric counseling and a safe environment for recovery. You probably charge your employer $60k (+/- whatever) for rendering services; are you now obligated to help your boss (or CEO/whoever) through an episode of bipolar? Schizophrenia? I mean, they gave you $60k, right?
        • superuser2 13y ago
          Most schools provide psychiatric counseling (and primary care, and immunizations, etc) as part of the medical services paid for by the student life fee.
        • seanhandley 13y ago
          My colleagues were very supportive during a bout of anxiety and depression I had in 2012. I couldn't sleep properly for 2 full weeks and was a complete mess. They let me take an unscheduled absence (paid) for a few days because in the long run I'm more useful and productive to the team if I have a chance to heal when I'm unwell. A psychological illness is as real as a physical one and just as damaging. I'd rather be in a society that cares as standard, rather than counts the dollar value.
        • auctiontheory 13y ago
          The $60k is for rendering an education, not providing psychiatric counseling and a safe environment for recovery. Have you looked at a catalog for Yale or any similar private school? They're not primarily selling education. Besides, the "education" is no different from what you'd get at a much less expensive, much less well-known school. You're paying for the "community" and the experience and the brand. Source: I paid for my own Yale degree.
          • 13y ago
    • chc 13y ago
      The rest of us would also be dicks if we cut ties with her after learning she was going through a personal struggle.
      • imsofuture 13y ago
        Personally, sure. Institutionally, not so much. I'm sympathetic, I just don't see what place Yale has in this.
        • chc 13y ago
          > Personally, sure. Institutionally, not so much. I don't even know what that is supposed to mean. I'm not institutionally a dick? Is that even a meaningful sentence?
          • secstate 13y ago
            An institution does not have emotions, just like a corporation does not have morals. It's not capable of being an asshole or your best friend. That's what they meant. In order to call Yale a dick, you'd first have to personify it, but that's a literary trick and not reality.
            • nitrogen 13y ago
              The decisions of "Yale" the emotionless institution are made by people. I don't want to get involved in discussing this particular case, but I am very bothered by the common sentiment that groups of people should not be held to the same ethical, moral, emotional standards as the individuals within the group.
              • secstate 13y ago
                I never said Yale shouldn't be held to such standards as individuals are. I merely pointed out that, as much as we'd like to believe, and our laws try to contain, organizations of people are by their nature amoral. You can wish Yale could be held to that standard, but it's the individuals that steer the org that need to held accountable. To cite another case, United Fruit enjoyed cheap land and labor in Guatemala. In the late 40's and early 50's, populist movements started springing up in the country until one day a land-reform minded president was democratically elected. Someone at UF called up some friends in the U.S. government who knew some folks, who organized an assassination of the president by the CIA. United Fruit is not evil. A vast majority of the people who made up the corporation were probably blissfully ignorant of what the group they were members of were doing. And it's unreasonable and irrational to expect corporations of a certain size to have "all the facts." Instead, a small cabal of individuals colluded to implement a policy that devastated a small Central American democracy for the rest of the 20th century. In the same way, Yale is amoral. It is not capable of making moral decisions the way individuals in leadership positions are. And American corporate law should reflect that. Instead we get bullshit like corporate campaign reform that allows individuals with an agenda to wield the power of the hundreds or thousands because there's a chance that the that individual's position will positively impact the corporate body.
    • deleted 13y ago
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    • DanBC 13y ago
      Yale has blatantly discriminated against someone with a mental health problem. There was no attempt to make reasonable accommodations, to make adjustments if possible to enable her to continue to stay. Swap mental illness for wheel chair use or deafness and you start to see why your position is so unreasonable.
      • stephen 13y ago
        The "reasonable accommodation" for someone with suicidal/self-harmful thoughts and actions (active cutting) is sending them to a psych ward for treatment. Which they did. If a person in a wheel chair had their legs bleeding out, would it be discrimination to send them to the hospital for treatment? Or just the right thing to do? If anything, they were exactly the opposite of discriminatory, as post-treatment, they let her (now with the "mental history" label attached) back in, right?
        • DanBC 13y ago
          I don't know enough about this person to say whether it was the right thing or not, but in general suicidal thinking combined with self harm shouldn't be enough to deny someone access to University. Self harm is for some people a protective measure that prevents suicide. It's possible that a bit of supervision and temporary lighter workloads would have helped. I have been careful use use weasle words - "if her account is accurate" etc - because it's possible that the only option was for them to remove her temporarily and their weird system needs her to reapply. And I'm not sure if they get a pass on not discriminatory. Excluding people with current mental illness, but accepting people with a mental health problem in their history isn't really good enough in the 21st centuary. Again, I don't know what their policy is so I should not judge them, but what do they do with people who disclose hearing voices or psychotic episodes or bi-polar mania or eating disorder? (Anorexia is far more dangerous than self harm, even including the suicidal thinking).
          • rpiguy 13y ago
            "in general suicidal thinking combined with self harm shouldn't be enough to deny someone access to University" I would agree with you, but I sympathize with the University as well. In our litigious society, Yale could easily be sued by the parents of the suicide victim. Worse, once a school starts "treating" a student for mental health issues they by default assume some responsibility for that person. If the OP did eventually jump from the roof of Vanderbilt hall, people would be asking, "why didn't they send her home?" The university could have treated her with more compassion and respect, but their ultimate decision to remove her was probably their best course of action.
    • DanBC 13y ago
      Here's what Yale themselves say about disability: (http://yalecollege.yale.edu/content/resource-office-disabilities http://yalecollege.yale.edu/content/resource-office-disabili...) > Often, the physical barrier is the easiest to remove - the attitudinal barriers are much more difficult. To create a university community, which is truly accessible to and inclusive of all persons, including people with disabilities requires the participation of each and every member of the community. Toward this goal, the Office serves as a resource and a catalyst for change by providing technical assistance, information, and disability awareness training to any member of the Yale community.
    • 6d0debc071 13y ago
      It's sort of like an implied contract, you can't pretend to care about people and then shaft them. Well, legally you often can, but it's a pretty shitty thing to do.
  • imsofuture 13y ago
    And good for them. Well, not good for them, but it's certainly not their place to be surrogate parents.
    • PavlovsCat 13y ago
      There is a huge area between being "surrogate parents" and being outright inhumane. > For more than a day no one had any idea where I was — not even my parents. The rest is equally horrifying, but this boggles my mind on top of all that. Is it too much to ask to at least inform her parents? What could be a sane justification for not doing so?
      • throwaway092834 13y ago
        I believe it's illegal for the school to share that information with parents, provided the student is an adult and hasn't given consent.
        • PavlovsCat 13y ago
          But it's perfectly legal for someone to decide that an adult is still suicidal when they say they are not, having them taken away and locked up without allowing them a phonecall? If that's mental healthcare in the US, I wonder what abduction is like.
          • throwaway092834 13y ago
            Please understand I'm not justifying or defending, only explaining.
            • PavlovsCat 13y ago
              I know. Still, there is a difference between them not having consent because they weren't given consent, or because they haven't even asked for it. Maybe not legally, but I morally for sure. (I simply assume that the article isn't leaving out that they asked her, and that she said no.)
  • abvdasker 13y ago
    I'm not arguing against your point that a college's decisions with respect to student retention are made in the interests of the school rather than the student. However, you're ignoring the enormous pressure on institutions (especially the prestigious ones like Yale) to maintain a high 4-year graduation rate and a very low dropout rate. Most of these colleges will do absolutely anything in their power to keep students from dropping out, so I'd say her chances of being readmitted were very, very high. I know because I went to one of these schools. Many of my peers were forced to take time off for reasons ranging from mental health to academic probation to disciplinary action. I know one student who was forced to take time off from my college for three separate semesters for three different incidents. The top-tier institutions give students an incredible number of second chances. Which isn't to say this falls into the same category as someone who, say, did LSD, got naked and had a physical altercation with the town police. My only point is this: saying a university perceives troubled students as liabilities is an enormous oversimplification of the factors that go into an administrative response to this kind of situation. But I do agree universities generally act in their own interests.
  • stephen 13y ago
    > What can we do to not get sued? I don't understand why this is a bad thing. Lawsuits are society's way of telling organizations, "don't let this happen again". So, let's assume, yes, this college is worried about a lawsuit from the girl hurting others. You assert, "those jerks, they're only focused on avoiding a lawsuit and covering their ass." Well, yes, because society has told them "if you let this girl/other students get hurt because you ignored an obvious threat to their safety, their parents will sue the hell out of you". So, in reality, the threat of a lawsuit is, by proxy, actually protecting the other students. How is that a bad thing? (Frankly, I would give Yale the benefit of the doubt, and assume they were directly concerned for the safety of this and other students, instead of only concerned about the lawsuit, but, either way, the results are the same: no one got hurt, she got help she needed, and she's back.)
    • cjfont 13y ago
      I'm having a hard time seeing how Yale's decision would protect other students -- on the contrary, the message that would send to other students is, "you better not do something to deviate from the norm in an undesirable way or you won't be wanted here." Certainly in this case the girl wasn't a direct threat to anyone else, the only threat I see here from the University's perspective is to their image as an institution that admits "cutters".
      • stephen 13y ago
        > the message [...] you won't be wanted here You're taking a very specific, dangerous situation (an active psychiatric illness) and making a large extrapolation to "any deviation from the norm". People will active psychiatric illnesses are supposed to go to psych wards for immediate medication, and then are supposed to have months of follow up while they heal, adjust to meds, and learn to cope. This official had an extremely bad choice of words, but what everyone is missing is that the right thing happened. She's healing. She's back. She's not dead. Yes, she harbors a lot of resentment about what happened, but a lot of times people in these situations don't realize what really is for their own good. Unfortunately. Hopefully she can come to realize this eventually. > wasn't a direct threat to anyone else Have you read the other comments in this thread about suicidal (only self-harm) people, once in the hospital, slashing staff with a razor blade? I assert people with psychiatric illnesses are not as predictable as you seem to think. Especially when they're going to be going through a med change, which is often a crap shoot about which meds help and which can actually make it worse. Do you have training/experience to the contrary? I am admittedly not an expert on "cutters". Maybe we need a "IANAP" (I Am Not A Psychiatrist) disclaimer.
  • GhotiFish 13y ago
    >You sometimes have to be a liar when dealing with large bureaucratic systems. A large school is certainly one such thing. They do not have your best interests in mind. Healing you is not on their priority list. Be honest with people you trust and love. Don't treat institutions as moral agents. You know, this seems pretty obvious, but that hadn't clicked for me until just now. thanks.
• grannyg00se 13y ago
  So if you cut yourself you get treated as a criminal and tortured? What the hell is going on here? How is this even legal?
  • dbingham 13y ago
    The American mental health system is what's going on here. And it gets worse. Just the other day I was listening to an NPR article about how jails deal with mentally ill inmates. Alot of them seem to end up there for committing minor crimes that stem from their health problems (such as, to quote the article, "action out"). They receive some care in jail (but very little) and none when they are out. Here's the link: http://www.npr.org/2014/01/20/263461940/mentally-ill-inmates-often-locked-up-in-jails-that-cant-help http://www.npr.org/2014/01/20/263461940/mentally-ill-inmates...
  • girvo 13y ago
    Welcome to the mental health "industry". I avoided it, thank god, though by rights I probably shouldn't have in some ways. I self medicated with heroin to avoid being locked up in hospital, with little visitation, no computer, no life, for six months, just like people I knew had. Now I've spent the last year and half getting clean, after 7 years of addiction... And what scares me is that I seem to be doing better than those that went through the real system.
    • legutierr 13y ago
      > And what scares me is that I seem to be doing better than those that went through the real system. How so? What happened to them?
      • 001sky 13y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy Modern technique is slightly different, but the outsome / goals essentially the same. And this historical record is elighntening both in the origins and the evolution of the clinical treatent. Today, the preferred method is to drug children in schools. Evolution surely hasn't increased the error rate in replicating "normal" DNA sets over the past 50 years, but the data indicates something like 1/5 of them are now "defective" enough to be eligible for the happy treatment.[1] [1] In US, 20% Of Children Have A Mental Disorder >http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/260697.php http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/260697.php
• prolways 13y ago
  In general, if you seek help you will only be punished. My sister sought help for a sleeping disorder, and received nothing but a suspension of her driver's license. She then had to overcome her medical difficulties on her own and pass an unreasonably arduous test to get her license back. My coworker went to our boss to say she couldn't make ends meet and needed some kind of raise (making $25k with 2 kinds in bay area). He fired her for being a liability. I went to the police to report a hit and run, and they used it as an opportunity to search my vehicle in an attempt to levy charges against me. They openly acknowledged they have basically 0 ability to actually find the perpetrator of the real crime. I ask myself almost every day, as I'm innundated with needless financial and societal burdens I cannot shoulder, what obligations does society have back to me? I cannot think of any.
  • Einstalbert 13y ago
    A cynical but rational outlook on life.
    • chc 13y ago
      It is not really all that rational. "A few bad things happened, so obviously the world is crap" is an emotional response of the sort normally associated with adolescents. I have plenty of contrary anecdotes of my own, but they would also not prove a universal truth about the world.
      • arjie 13y ago
        True enough, but one must tread carefully. A history of mental illness that demonstrates that you were a threat to yourself or to others is going to impact your residency in the US if you are an alien. A history of alcoholism (and depression may lead to alcohol abuse) with evidence of past harmful behaviour is going to work against you. I am fortunate to be healthy, but if I weren't, would I tell anyone? Probably not. I like the US and want to stay here.
      • nknighthb 13y ago
        I can't name a single person in my life who has sought help and not been punished for it. I have, fortunately, learned from their mistakes, and will never seek help myself. I can't see how it isn't rational. I have ample evidence seeking help is bad. I have none whatsoever that it's good. The rational choice is objectively obvious. There's even a doctor in this very thread defending that punishment as "first-rate care"[1]. What other proof should I have before deciding mental health care has nothing to do with caring, and everything to do with punishing and isolating people who are inconvenient? [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7119969 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7119969
• akavi 13y ago
  Make no mistake, this policy directly results in Yale students not seeking out help for fear of the consequences. I should know; I was one of them.
• deleted 13y ago
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• noonespecial 13y ago
  An all expenses paid (by you) trip on the "cover your ass" express, stopping at every station. The passenger? Heh, no. You're the cargo.
• clockworkelf 13y ago
  As someone who has been touched by suicide, I really feel for this girl. However I find it puzzling that this story is all about Yale and the expectation that Yale, a for-profit corporation, is required to replace the matrix of her family. The story does not once mention her family. Oftentimes, details are omitted from a story in order to slant opinion in favour of the narrator. I hope that is not the case here.
• isaacb 13y ago
  I had very good support for mental health troubles at NYU. I never harmed myself, so it is very possible that I would have had a different experience in this student's shoes, but it did wonders for me to feel cared for. I can only imagine how terrible it would be to have a support system open up from under you.
• username223 13y ago
  And that's just the beginning. Now that this is on her permanent record, she gets to explain it to potential employers. Dealing with the American mental health system has a guaranteed cost, and uncertain benefits.
  • tptacek 13y ago
    Huh? What potential employer gets its candidates health records?
    • deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    • username223 13y ago
      As Jtsummers wrote (before it was zapped), it's an issue if you ever want a clearance. Also, they're free to ask, giving you the opportunity to either tell the truth and risk being passed over -- good luck proving discrimination -- or lie and put yourself in a position to get screwed later.
      • Jtsummers 13y ago
        I removed my post because I didn't like the way I wrote it, and wasn't sure how to rewrite it. I wasn't meaning to contradict tptacek with it, but it came off (to me) that way. And I deleted just after it popped up after my 2 minute post delay. My point was: Physical health - all I've seen from jobs is a requirement for a physical. They may request the records from the physical and it could be comprehensive. I've never heard of requests for older records, though a doctor may need to fill something out (like a physical limitations form for an applicant or worker who has had a hernia or back surgery). Mental health - I've only seen this in relation to security clearances. In that situation (IMO) the request is entirely reasonable, and has not (IME and experience of friends) been a showstopper to be honest. But I don't know anyone that was hospitalized either (well, that I know of) who sought a job with a security clearance requirement. Really, the agencies involved knowing about the problems is the main thing. If they know about it, then it's harder for someone to use it as leverage. Similarly, with good bosses, them knowing I have issues with anxiety/depression has meant they've intervened and helped me catch it earlier than I ever would have on my own.
• stephen 13y ago
  I really don't understand the comments here. "Lie better"? Wtf? The gal has obviously sick. Yes, Yale sent her away, but is there any actual psychiatrist here who would recommend keeping a suicidal/self-harming patient in any school/job situation? If anything, Yale should get some credit for not black balling her; they, including this awful "won't see the students" Dr. Siggins, readmitted her when she was recovered. Sounds like a horrible, unfortunate situation worked out as well as can be expected.
  • ollysb 13y ago
    You have a point, but this is definitely not an example of it working out as well as can be expected... > There I was taken to the locked ward of the ER — guarded by officers with guns — stripped of all my belongings, including my pants (they had a drawstring), and shunted into a cubicle containing nothing but a bed. I was here for my own good, they told me. > Upon arrival, I was taken into a small room with two female staff members, forced to take off my underwear, spread my legs, then hop up and down to make sure nothing was hidden “up there.”
    • stephen 13y ago
      Yes, well, unfortunately but realistically, this is just standard admittance practice for psych wards (per the article this all happened at Yale-New Haven, not Yale itself). I'm sure it's horrible and humiliating, but a) it's not torture (a word another commenter used), and b) you're admitting known-unstable people into very close quarters with doctors and nurses who will care, feed, and bathe them over the next several days/weeks. So, yes, hospitals have decided this safety check is warranted. "OMG covering their ass!". Yes, exactly. They're probably covering their ass because sometime ago, someone did get something in, and bad things happened. If I were a doctor/nurse working in a psych ward year around, I would appreciate the safety check. The author says, sarcastically, "I was here for my own good" (with various dangerous items removed). She was actually right. They take precautions for a reason, not just to be assholes.
      • werid 13y ago
• niels_olson 13y ago
  As a physician, and former member of a college staff, I suspect Ms Williams will look back on this bit of writing with a twinge. She had to "listen to the rattling gasping sound coming from the person two beds down" and to "a schizophrenic person declare, every hour or so, that he had soiled himself". When she is interning for The Congressman, in a policy debate about primary care or mental health, she will value the opportunity to have borne witness to their sufferings. She was asked to recite the presidents in reverse order? You mean the psychiatrist was adapt enough to develop a intellectually appropriate variation on the mini-mental status exam? That sounds like first rate care to me. The men with guns have guns because they're representatives of the state. Yes, ultimately, they exercise the state's monopoly on violence. Which is mostly incidental. We can't arrange special neutered cops for the sensibilities of Ms Williams, and frankly, the psych ward of a downtown hospital is one of the more volatile places in the world. Same for the room/cell, etc, etc. The physical confines are a function of what's safe based on the lowest common denominator in the population: the 6'7" 230 lb schizoaffective linebacker (have met those patients ... do not care to meet again). Her central thesis, that Yale is focused on image, frankly doesn't sound like anything the university is really worried about. No rational administrator would allow image to enter their minds. If anything, that would be antithetical to the image argument. These are people who live their lives by the mantra that they should be prepared for anything they say to be published on the front page of the New York Times. And they're pretty savvy. They know that doing the best for this student, no matter what the blow back, is ultimately the right thing to do. Take care of the patient and the image issue will take care of itself.
  • supersystem 13y ago
    It's not surprising that you manages to justify abuse of power, people in power always do.
  • throwaway38513 13y ago
    How is cutting off a depressed person from the positive factors in their life (future, friends, studies, activities) considered taking care of the patient? Wouldn't you imagine that blowing the floor out from under an elite college student with friends and interests and a future and sending them to a dead-end, alone, in their parents house would make things a great deal worse? If I were considering suicide even with all those positive things in my life, there'd be no consideration necessary when they were taken away. Instead, the knowledge that this could happen just provides pretty damn compelling reason not to seek therapy or even support from friends.
• hangonhn 13y ago
  My personal experience at Yale differs quite a bit from hers. A lot of my friends and I struggled through our experiences at Yale. Things sucked a lot at times but there's a certain unity that results from collective suffering. Maybe it's because I'm recollecting the entire 4 years while she's still doing her undergraduate studies. Things weren't always alright but I did get a break when I needed it. I went to the Department of Undergraduate Health after having really bad headaches, like someone was stabbing me in the forehead. They checked some stuff but the doctor basically said I was working myself to death. I was definitely struggling at that point. He told me to take a few days off and wrote a note for me. I took it to my dean and he wrote another note that basically allowed me to turn in all my work late for about a week or so. I rested and things got better. I don't think I was alone in struggling and receiving help. It's a bit hard for me to reconcile the considerably more compassionate response I received from Yale with her experience. Is Yale so extreme that once you cross a threshold they become stone cold? People struggle in college. It's strange for me to read that everyone around her is acting OK. I would have told her that things are tough if we had been classmates. It's pretty depressing at times watching the sunrise from the windows of the computer lab. Or in my moment of triumph after getting my toy OS to run there is no one around to share that joy with because most people are asleep at 6 AM on Saturday. I'm not saying her account isn't true for her but Yale is a big and diverse place. It might to good to be around different people. Go hang out with the CS people in the computer lab on Friday night at 11PM. They will tell you things aren't alright and thanks for the company.
  • justinmk 13y ago
    > It's pretty depressing at times watching the sunrise from the windows of the computer lab. At least your lab had windows...
    • hangonhn 13y ago
      You're an University of Waterloo alum?
  • mercer 13y ago
    > Things weren't always alright but I did get a break when I needed it. I went to the Department of Undergraduate Health after having really bad headaches, like someone was stabbing me in the forehead. Perhaps the fact that headaches are not generally seen as mental illness (and/or instability) plays a big role in your experience compared to that of others. I think the approach to mental illness is very different, both by those suffering from it and those responding to it.
• PhantomGremlin 13y ago
  College is when you transition from the (hopefully) "happy place" you were as a kid to "the real world". It sucks that Yale didn't help this person when she need it. But it certainly doesn't get any better in the real world. If, one fine afternoon, your boss says "how are you?" and you say "I cut myself earlier today", then expect to be promptly escorted out of the building. Perhaps to a mental health facility, if you're lucky. If, one fine afternoon, your boss says "how are you?" and you don't say "fine", be prepared to explain yourself in detail. You'd better have a way with words, because your job is definitely on the line. Especially at a startup. You might say "that sucks". And it does suck. But that's just the way it is for 99% (wild made up number) of the jobs in the USA. Unlike grade school soccer games, your employer isn't going to hand out trophies just for participation. All IMO of course.
  • chao- 13y ago
    >Especially at a startup. Disagree†. High turnover is not desirable anywhere, but it is far less tolerable at a startup. People are far less interchangeable and systems are more often bound up in people's minds rather than in some employee handbook. †Depending what phase of startup you are referring to, a somewhat tangential discussion.
    • PhantomGremlin 13y ago
      For what it's worth, I had that almost exact conversation, as an engineer at a startup. The only difference from what I wrote and real life was that it wasn't my boss, it was my boss's boss, the VP of Engineering, doing something called "management by wandering around". That was 30 years ago, but I doubt that today's managers are any different. I did keep my job, but alarm bells were definitely ringing in top management that day. Successful startups (which ours turned out to be) are often as much about risk management as anything else. Having employees that aren't 100% "fine", for any reason, is a risk. Of course that risk must be weighted against the turnover of replacing that employee.
      • auctiontheory 13y ago
• DanBC 13y ago
  This account is very disturbing. Her mental health "treatment" is illegal in the UK and should result in compensation payouts. Don't Americans have anti-discrimination laws? And the decision to exclide people who disclose self harm is baffling, because people who self harm usually avoid seeking treatment. Not just avoid seeking treatment for self harm, but avoid seeking treatment for other stuff because they are worried about the self harm being discovered.
• carterschonwald 13y ago
  Yale has incredibly shitty support infrastructure for it students, and only takes action to the extent it buffs the public image of the university. Most of other Tier 1 universities where I've known students (Columbia, Mit, Princeton, Harvard, Dartmouth, etc), have much much more proactive support infrastructure to prophylactically protect and suport their students (or at least the undergrads). (whenever a student at one of these schools complains about bureaucracy, I smile at how much more their university cares about/protect students). Perhaps just at importantly, students at these other schools find it more permissible to openly communicate that they're unhappy to their peer group. At Yale (as of 3-6 years ago), being unhappy was considered socially unacceptable, ie "why are you here then" would be a typical response. Being able to talk about problems amongst your social peer group is very important! (and being unable to is toxic and dangerous) I've some very very good friends who had terrible mental health issues go unmanaged for years because of Yale's shitty lack of proactive support of students. And thats even ignoring some of the sexual harrassment issues some undergrad women I know there suffered (from their research lab advisors!). tl;dr, yale is one of the more toxic environments in the ivy league, though to an outsider it looks like one of the warmer communities. The first step to having a healthy community is making it ok for people to talk about problems and matters. I speak from the experience of having been a student at yale, a graduate student at another ivy, and having spent A LOT of time visiting friends at many universities. Every school has its faults, but trust least the ones that hide those faults.
  • Nimi 13y ago
    Non-US resident here. I found the treatment of the OP appalling, but I have to ask: what's the deal with schools doing this stuff? I'm a PhD student at Tel-Aviv University, the medical services we have on campus are limited to a couple of nurses and maybe a doctor or two, for urgent cases or when you just need a band-aid. Last time I went to the medical "facility" (which is really a couple of rooms), I was told to schedule an appointment with a doctor outside the university, and that was it. So no one at the university even knows about any health issues I may have, and certainly not treats them or evaluates their severity. Sexual harassment is indeed a problem, here as well, but again I wonder why not go to the police? At least here, it's a criminal offense. Not that students go to the police, but why don't they?
• yeukhon 13y ago
  None of us are completely okay. But the pressure to conform to being perfectly functional and happy is a burden that we should neither want nor bear. We are playing Elsa in Frozen. Be the good girl you always have to be. Conceal, don't feel, don't fear, conceal. College is certainly very different. Well, also, depending on the people you rely on in school. I want to say that we should recognize depression and mental illness is just part of life and don't be afraid when bad things come to us. When I was in HS I had a severe depression. Starting in the junior year I had multiple anger issues and I had to drop some AP classes due to stress. In senior year I had several serious incidents within and outside of school. The stress was killing me. I couldn't resist to see my grade going down, losing grasp of the new shiny robotics club I just started and couldn't get the girl I really like at the time. I was sent to hospital twice for evaluation. The second time, I was called by my counselor. She told me someone wanted to see me and I asked who. Two NYPD officers showed up and they escorted me to the hospital. I was really scared. I cried and I thought I was under arrested. I was only 17 at the time. I have never been arrested. I thought my counselor betrayed me. I thought everyone sold me out. My counselor said someone else from the school would come with me. A school aid came with us. Both evaluations are dull and tiring. My whole family had to stay with me until 2, 3AM in the morning. Some times later my mother said they all cried when they heard how sick I was. When the MD confirmed I was sick, it was like someone just sentenced me to death. I could finally tell people "yes, I am sick", but at the same time I was sick and people would look at me slightly different. We all have some experience with depression and anxiety. The experience is never pleasant. For me, it involves sleeping late and feel unmotivated. My day and night reversed. I could sleep for 12-14 hours a day. Nothing felt real when I was depressed. Just watch Frozen. I could go on and on with a novel writing here (well I suck at writing..). But I can see I am a lucky person. I knew a lot of the people in HS. I used to work in the principal office, I was the go-to IT guy so I knew many people. When I was sick they would tell me "go on John." The school didn't ban me from entering the school. They hired psychiatrist to come to school on a weekly basis (apparently I wasn't the only one having issue in my high school). The social worker and the psychiatrist were both Chinese so my parents could actually talk to them. My teachers didn't penalize me much for the tardiness and would encourage me to come to school. PE became my favorite class. I could run 10-20 laps around the track and the sweat made me happier. Yes. Sun light is important. Locking a patient in a concrete building forever is not going to help much. Socializing with other patients won't help much either... If my senior year last 10 months, I lost probably 7 months fighting depression with 3 months somewhat happy, crazy moments with classmates, friends and teachers. College is different to me. People come and go. I go to a commute type of school. I get to come home. I get to sleep in and stay inside my room for a whole week if I want to. My parents can worry or feel angry but they are my parents. Unlike people who dorm they have to put up with other "strangers". College is like going for a boring interview for a boring job. That's just me. That's just my experience. We shouldn't treat people with mental illness as third class citizen. We need to make rehabilitation more human. Drugs can damage brain and can change people. If you have watch Fringe you would know how much the drug and the environment affect Dr. Walter. And if you watch Orange is the New Black, prisoners are afraid of going to the psycho solitary. I am proud to tell people my story because this is part of my life. I feel like a real person. I am not a Disney character. I have desire and my desire pushed me beyond my limit and so I become depressed, stressed and hopeless. Don't be afraid to tell people when you are not okay. It's fine. Knowing you are not okay is the first step to rescue yourself. It's okay to feel depress and get depress for a while. Just remember, one day, when you wake up, you will feel better and you will force yourself to go out there. When that happens, don't let the freedom run away from you... For the first time in forever, there will be music there will be light. For the first time in forever, I will be dancing through the night. But of course, luck does play in a role. Some people are just not so lucky. They don't get the nice people on their side and they die because of that... As a side note, I was depressed recently again. I feel better now. I set my foot out of the house. I went to realworldcrypto conference and did volunteering for local FLL (FIRST Lego League). I chilled with friends and people I used to work with and then I saw two great movies. I built a snowman and now I feel better.
• rajacombinator 13y ago
  Although the "disappearing" of her sounds bad, it's clear that Yale made the right decision. Students suffering this kind of mental trauma do no belong in a high stress academic environment. It would be irresponsible to allow them to stay.
• deleted 13y ago
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• b1daly 13y ago
  I'm actually dumbfounded that this happened to this student if it as she described. I went to an Ivy years ago and I and many other students took medical leave. There was no need to reapply or jump through hoops, you just had to tell them you were better. Has something changed? Can they kick you out for other illnesses?
• roymurdock 13y ago
  I wonder why she went back?
  • dreamdu5t 13y ago
    Right!? I'm flabbergasted by the pedestal people put schools on. She's going to be a real wreck once she leaves Yale and realizes having a Yale degree doesn't solve any of her problems.
• gaius 13y ago
  Upon my release from the hospital (also not a function of my recovery — but as a result of my expulsion from the College Damn, that's bleak.
• tehwalrus 13y ago
  As someone who attended Cambridge University, UK, this looks totally alien to me. I have seen my fellow students (good friends) suffer bereavement, depression and self-harm, and none were ever told that they were no longer welcome at the college, or the university, nor treated like criminals[1] as described here. There are pastoral carers, both religious and non-religious, and councilling services based at different levels within the university, and there is (of course) NHS healthcare as well. If people do take time out (usually a whole year at a time) they return when they feel well enough, not when they are re-approved as sane by some university figure concerned with PR. Lying about being "OK" at every turn is also not something that happens. Of course, people don't always answer in detail when asked how they are, as social convention dictates, but it was entirely normal to say that you were snowed under with work/extra-curricular stuff, or that there was something bugging you. Either that or I was doing it wrong the whole time. [1] == treated like mental patients 40 years ago. Also remember that something like 70% of all inmates in British jails have a mental health problem.
  • Daniel_Newby 13y ago
    Yale is a sort of a finishing school for the highest levels of electioneering. Having people leave to spend more time with their families is part of the game.
• marvin 13y ago
  That is a fucked up way to treat psychiatric patients. Are all psychiatric wards in the US like this?
  • lilsunnybee 13y ago
    It depends on your insurance, and probably what region of the country you're in too. Personally i've been in three places that were better, one that was worse: sexual abuse, orderlies stealing meds meant for patients, completely ignoring people except to punish them, foul-tasting food, etc.
• michaelochurch 13y ago
  This is not a problem with Yale alone. It's a problem with people. Most people have no sense of social justice and have no problem kicking someone like her when she's down. It's tempting to think most people are good because few people are obviously evil, and that's wrong. Most people are weak. They're just shuffling through life, not giving a shit, and those who end up in power tend to be the worst (rather than being unambitious, they tend to be the ones with empty ambition). Here's why this sort of situation, within the U.S. social model, will never get better. Technology's somewhat different (for now, but the disgusting mainstream business/MBA culture continues to invade because engineers do not fucking fight for themselves) because a high-talent person (even with intermittent health issues) can add a lot of value. However, for most of white-collar America, "work" is just pointless private-sector social climbing. Pure image, no substance, because the work is not demanding and Making Decisions (parable of the bikeshed) is valued in its own right. The only way to resolve those environments and pick winners among the horde of petitioning narcissists is to set up pointless reliability contests and see who drops first. This idea that it's somehow wrong to discriminate against, or turn one's back on, those with organic physical or mental health issues throws a wrench in that whole game, because transient, context-driven illness (physical and mental) is the core of the selection process. It's what selects people out. The whole point of the old-style corporate-ladder game is to load people up with easy (and often purposeless) work, but in extreme volumes, and presume that those who break last are the best, and those who deserve to lead. (Actually, the opposite is true. Superficial reliability and creativity are negatively correlated, but that's another discussion.) But if you start designating specific illnesses as formal disabilities that must be accommodated (which, from a social justice perspective, one should) that game stops working. Could you imagine telling an investment bank that people with clinical depression could no longer be expected to work over 60 hours per week? So many people would get themselves diagnosed with depression that people with actual depression would be assumed to just be "faking it" anyway. What the OP experienced at Yale is wrong, but it's no different from what she'd expect in The Real World.
  • awt 13y ago
    How do you break out of conventional thinking like this? Awesome.
• bichiliad 13y ago
  Playing devil's advocate here: A similar article drifted around for a while about a girl going to RISD. She talked about how she was abused, abandoned by her friends, etc. After talking to a few friends who actually go to the school, apparently nothing could be farther from the truth. Remember, take what you read with a grain of salt. You have no way of verifying any of the facts in the article.
• raintrees 13y ago
  Taken at face value, the OP required help. And Yale just happened to be the place she was when it came to the fore. I would like to posit that many organizations can react the same, and my personal experience is that it is incredibly helpful to "stay out of the system" if at all possible, again with the caveat that said person is not suffering from a serious health issue like depression/self-mutilation, discrimination to the point of lethal action, etc. that would greatly benefit from being discovered and treated, or at least isolated as the cases may merit. My difficulty was taking my addictive personality and my "gaming the system" mentality and using it on my escapes of choice, mostly alcohol, at the time. Being on the system's radar (Driving Under the Influence conviction) taught me the lesson of the value of freedom. I completely abstain at this point, easier for me just to not drink any intoxicant than to try to monitor my intake/arrange for cabs/limos, etc. My freedom is a rejoice-able thing, especially when I see the tendency for bureaucracies to treat people with problems with generalistic patterns/antipatterns. Labels like "alcoholic" or "suffering from depression" are easy targets/goals for the people who are saddled with the responsibility of deciding how to deal with a person with problems in a life where the deciding individuals feel overwhelmed with the amount of cases they are expected to get through. And I see a reason for concern as the current US government (my location, I do not know if other countries are similar) looks for methods of simplifying the task of dealing with gun control, whistle blowers, and other events/people that may be perceived as threats to the current system. It would be conceivable, based on current legislation attempts/actions, that my government would decide that it is easier to limit the possession of firearms to individuals who have never had "issues" with addictions or mental deviations from what is considered "normal." Or that the potential for disruption of society and markets make self-publication on mediums (Internet blog posts? Self-made videos?) something that should be heavily regulated, for society's own good... And that same governing body is necessarily the arbitrator of what is "normal." Wouldn't bucking the British rule of colonial America be possibly considered "abnormal" by the British government of the time? One may argue that we do not want mentally-challenged individuals in possession of firearms, I may agree frequently on a case by case basis, but that also then extends to possession of vehicles (more death due to automobile accidents than many other causes), and eventually anything else that can be considered a threat. Box Cutters on planes? Aren't there individuals out there who have the ability to use their own bodies to carry out extensive damage without the aid of any other physical weapon? How would we limit them? More thought and dialog seems merited, and I appreciate this article for that, as well...
• joesmo 13y ago
  Sadly, this is how the rest of the world is (not that Yale or any other educational institution should be like this just because the rest of the world is). Mental problems are frowned upon in our society except when they can be used to profit off of people. There is NO help for people with mental problems, only abandonment and prosecution. Because of legislation preventing discrimination, this is not done overtly and it APPEARS that one can get help from doctors and mental health facilities when in reality these are just the wardens and prisons for those who are labeled as mentally defective. It's obvious that Yale does not care about its students based on Dr. Siggins' behavior, but this is something that one should expect for the rest of one's life. Best thing to do is to keep quiet and recognize the lack of help. Occasionally, there are doctors and therapists that can help, but mostly they will just try to push drugs.
• socrates1998 13y ago
  When I read stuff like this, I am glad I didn't go to an Ivy League school. I know this is Yale and not the other schools, but I have heard similar issues with anxiety, pressure and suicide at many other top schools. Americans are addicted to success. People lie to each other about how good everything is. "I hate my job, but life after 5pm is okay." "I have no time to see my family, but my life is rockin!" "I work 100 hours a week, but I love it!" Balance is difficult because no one can tell you what it is, you have to find it yourself.