4 ms·

This gets reposted here every couple of days. I get it...you guys like Go and Rust. Most of you are Open Source all the way. That's cool. Some of us actually li

This gets reposted here every couple of days. I get it...you guys like Go and Rust. Most of you are Open Source all the way. That's cool. Some of us actually like MS technologies. Not all of them, but some of them are great. I guess I'm just getting tired of the fanboy need to run down things you don't like. Anyway, it sounds like some of the new work at Microsoft gets that they need something closer to the metal without dumping c# developers. I won't link to it, because it too was linked to death around here.

atmosx 13y ago
> Some of us actually like MS [...] You sure? :-P
- GnarfGnarf 13y ago
  Yes, all the way to the bank.
roel_v 13y ago
Look, I still write my software with MFC, I'm no longer a fanboy of 'compiles one day, not the next' api chasing with many OS libraries, but you have to admit that the points he raises are valid. VB to VB.Net? XAML? ADO/DAO and all that? These things are serious frustrations, and I probably would have ran from the platform too if I was heavily exposed to them.
- blahbl4hblahtoo 13y ago
  Right, you ever track all the changes in Php or Java? The idea that something being open source means that there aren't changes is just nonsense. Change happens. It's life. I guess you just pick your poison.
  - mercurial 13y ago
    Forget about PHP. Java's development pace has been glacial the last few years (though Oracle seems determined to do something about it), but when introducing new features, it's rare that backward compatibility breaks (even when it would be desirable).
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - eropple 13y ago
    Explain to me exactly when the core Java stack has massively deprecated something as core as database access in favor of a marginally-redesigned but API-incompatible New Hotness. Thanks.
  - roel_v 13y ago
    "Change happens. It's life. I guess you just pick your poison." What? No, it doesn't have to, or at least not at the pace of once a year. It's not because everybody else does it, it's OK all of a sudden. I like php exactly because it's relatively stable (I'm not talking about the frameworks here, let's not go there). But fuck all those others - that wasn't my point. The win platform could have been so much better for pragmatic developers who just want their foundation to be stable to just get shit done. Why abandon C++ in the way they did? Why the 4-5 different paradigms for UI development? Not incremental changes, or libraries, but completely incompatible new ways of doing things, and if you don't follow the trend, you'll be left out. If the dev tools group had known their place, they would have served developers as customers, instead of the situation we have now. Of course the vocal minority of chase-the-next-thing developers brought this on us as well, it's similar to the 'disregard everything from the past and reinvent everything because I'm so much much than everybody else' often displayed on sites like here and reddit programming - 6 years ago Python was the hot thing, 4 years ago Rails, 2 years ago Node and I'm not even sure what it is now. Anyway, my point is that it's innate in inexperienced software people to want to dive into tech for the sake of it and forgetting the business case behind it. And that is what holds back the industry as a whole, reinventing and re-implementing everything every few years under the guise of 'innovation' or 'we'll do it right this time', but it's really just NIHS. And that goes for the Windows ecosystem, the OS ecosystem, others as well I guess but I don't know them well enough, or they're not old enough yet for this pattern to unfold).
hobs 13y ago
I dont think the guy who wrote it had any interest in Go and Rust, otherwise he would be applauding Microsoft's approach to ruining their own developer ecosystem. In fact, my read of the article is "Microsoft, we were going to make money together, why are you throwing out the baby with the bathwater?" If MS develops an altogether new thing, what's the chance that it wont get thrown out in 2 years, again? I primarily work in the MS ecosystem and it is something I meet with trepidation with every product announcement. (Also, if this was posted every couple of days, wouldn't it need to be posted a little longer ago than Jan 7?)
Roboprog 13y ago
No, no. It's just Microsoft. Borland and Digital Research put MS to shame back in the late 80s. (compilers and OS) Then I got Linux around 95 and really liked it. MS API changes were maddening. (had been using a dozen other OSs, mostly *nix, at work the 2 or 3 years before that) The last few years, I've had to interact with OSX, iOS & Android. It's not about open source vs closed, it's about "works" vs "sprawling, shifting, unreliable mess". Perhaps MS's foibles would be more forgivable if it weren't perennially shoved down my throat as "industry leader". In what, crapware???
- Roboprog 13y ago
  ... "industry leader" - in marketing.

atmosx 13y ago

> Some of us actually like MS [...] You sure? :-P

GnarfGnarf 13y ago
Yes, all the way to the bank.

roel_v 13y ago

Look, I still write my software with MFC, I'm no longer a fanboy of 'compiles one day, not the next' api chasing with many OS libraries, but you have to admit that the points he raises are valid. VB to VB.Net? XAML? ADO/DAO and all that? These things are serious frustrations, and I probably would have ran from the platform too if I was heavily exposed to them.

blahbl4hblahtoo 13y ago
Right, you ever track all the changes in Php or Java? The idea that something being open source means that there aren't changes is just nonsense. Change happens. It's life. I guess you just pick your poison.
- mercurial 13y ago
  Forget about PHP. Java's development pace has been glacial the last few years (though Oracle seems determined to do something about it), but when introducing new features, it's rare that backward compatibility breaks (even when it would be desirable).
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- eropple 13y ago
  Explain to me exactly when the core Java stack has massively deprecated something as core as database access in favor of a marginally-redesigned but API-incompatible New Hotness. Thanks.
- roel_v 13y ago
  "Change happens. It's life. I guess you just pick your poison." What? No, it doesn't have to, or at least not at the pace of once a year. It's not because everybody else does it, it's OK all of a sudden. I like php exactly because it's relatively stable (I'm not talking about the frameworks here, let's not go there). But fuck all those others - that wasn't my point. The win platform could have been so much better for pragmatic developers who just want their foundation to be stable to just get shit done. Why abandon C++ in the way they did? Why the 4-5 different paradigms for UI development? Not incremental changes, or libraries, but completely incompatible new ways of doing things, and if you don't follow the trend, you'll be left out. If the dev tools group had known their place, they would have served developers as customers, instead of the situation we have now. Of course the vocal minority of chase-the-next-thing developers brought this on us as well, it's similar to the 'disregard everything from the past and reinvent everything because I'm so much much than everybody else' often displayed on sites like here and reddit programming - 6 years ago Python was the hot thing, 4 years ago Rails, 2 years ago Node and I'm not even sure what it is now. Anyway, my point is that it's innate in inexperienced software people to want to dive into tech for the sake of it and forgetting the business case behind it. And that is what holds back the industry as a whole, reinventing and re-implementing everything every few years under the guise of 'innovation' or 'we'll do it right this time', but it's really just NIHS. And that goes for the Windows ecosystem, the OS ecosystem, others as well I guess but I don't know them well enough, or they're not old enough yet for this pattern to unfold).

hobs 13y ago

I dont think the guy who wrote it had any interest in Go and Rust, otherwise he would be applauding Microsoft's approach to ruining their own developer ecosystem. In fact, my read of the article is "Microsoft, we were going to make money together, why are you throwing out the baby with the bathwater?" If MS develops an altogether new thing, what's the chance that it wont get thrown out in 2 years, again? I primarily work in the MS ecosystem and it is something I meet with trepidation with every product announcement. (Also, if this was posted every couple of days, wouldn't it need to be posted a little longer ago than Jan 7?)

Roboprog 13y ago

No, no. It's just Microsoft. Borland and Digital Research put MS to shame back in the late 80s. (compilers and OS) Then I got Linux around 95 and really liked it. MS API changes were maddening. (had been using a dozen other OSs, mostly *nix, at work the 2 or 3 years before that) The last few years, I've had to interact with OSX, iOS & Android. It's not about open source vs closed, it's about "works" vs "sprawling, shifting, unreliable mess". Perhaps MS's foibles would be more forgivable if it weren't perennially shoved down my throat as "industry leader". In what, crapware???

Roboprog 13y ago
... "industry leader" - in marketing.