19 ms·
At last, a law to stop almost anyone from doing almost anything
- venomsnake 13y agoIt is good that finally there will be sufficient powers and less efforts required for the police to finally restore the order in the post apocalyptic crime ridden wasteland that is UK /s
- gaius 13y agoopera lovers hogging the pavements Monbiot has really lost the plot this time.
- r0h1n 13y agoInstead of attacking 1-2 cherry picked (and typical Monbiot) tangents from the article, it would be helpful if you'd point out if his representation of the new law is accurate or not.
- mortov 13y ago"A fully referenced version of this article can be found at monbiot.com" suggests this is done already for those following the link. If you do, he lists these : References: 1. Anna Minton, ?2006. The privatisation of public space. The Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. http://www.annaminton.com/Privatepublicspace.pdf http://www.annaminton.com/Privatepublicspace.pdf 2. http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/media/articles/pdfs/asbos-and-human-rights-2004.pdf http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/media/articles/pdfs/a... 3. http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/pdfs/policy13/liberty-s-briefing-on-the-draft-anti-social-behaviour-bill-feb-2013-.pdf http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/pdfs/policy13/liberty... 4. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/apr/17/protester-receives-olympic-asbo http://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/apr/17/protester-rec... 5. http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/pdfs/policy13/liberty-s-briefing-on-the-draft-anti-social-behaviour-bill-feb-2013-.pdf http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/pdfs/policy13/liberty... 6. http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/pdfs/policy13/liberty-s-briefing-on-the-draft-anti-social-behaviour-bill-feb-2013-.pdf http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/pdfs/policy13/liberty... 7. http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2013-14/antisocialbehaviourcrimeandpolicingbill.html http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2013-14/antisocialbehavi... 8. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2013-2014/0066/lbill_2013-20140066_en_1.htm http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2013-20... 9. See also: http://www.scriptonitedaily.com/2013/11/11/the-birth-of-a-police-state-uk-police-to-be-granted-sweeping-new-powers-2/ http://www.scriptonitedaily.com/2013/11/11/the-birth-of-a-po... 10. http://reformclause1.org.uk/files/opinion.pdf http://reformclause1.org.uk/files/opinion.pdf 11. http://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/dec/18/right-to-protest-anti-social-behaviour-crime-policing-bill http://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/dec/18/right-to-protest-... 12. By phone, 6th January 2013. Various independent sources cited including Liberty - a well respected organization covering human rights issues in the UK. And of course, Parliament's own official publications of the bill.
- gaius 13y agoOf those only 7 and 8 can be considered valid. Liberty, whether you agree with them or not (on some issues I do, on some I don't) no-one can deny is a lobbying group with an agenda. And I am pretty sure even Wikipaedia frowns on using Wikipaedia as a reference, why does the Guardian get a free pass to reference the Guardian? Scriptonite is just some guy's blog!
- callum85 13y agoThere's nothing wrong with an article referencing something from another article in the same paper. It doesn't count as a circular reference if the articles are by separate, identifiable authors. Wikipedia needs stricter citation rules because it's harder to verify authorship.
- Xylakant 13y agoWhy can't references to (allegedly) biased source be references? Every author has an agenda, knowingly or unknowingly. Unless they referenced papers are false or lie they still may reference facts that allow you to form your own opinion - just don't take every conclusion at face value. At least the author provides you with the references so you can go an check for yourself. Also: Why are you excluding reference 1? It's a paper written for the RICS, which is an institution of the royal charter. They probably have their own agenda, but I'd not expect them to publish false information.
- stevejones 13y ago7 and 8 are government sources. The government has an agenda, and by your logic are therefore invalid. (everyone has an agenda you nut, otherwise they would do nothing)
- danjordan 13y agoWhy isn't there a service that overlays references on articles instead of having to search for them?
- callum85 13y agoIt's a bit sensational, but I don't think that counts as losing the plot.
- binarymax 13y agoI found that apt. I enjoy opera and ballet. If you stand outside the coliseum 15 minutes before an ENO performance, you will see - most surely - opera lovers hogging the pavements. I cannot imagine for one moment a PC handing out a citation to a single one of them. Teens waiting to get into a show in camden however, I can see these being handed out like take away flyers. (sorry for the bad analogy)
- gaius 13y agoWhen opera lovers start looting shops, then the police will start handing out citations. You seem to think it's unfair that a group with no history of causing trouble should be treated differently from one that has. And yes I have been both a teenage goth in Camden and in the queue at the ROH to see Turandot (among others).
- binarymax 13y agoI never said I agree with it, I am merely stating opinion of how this law will be (ab)used. I have been to many shows in camden myself and have caused a fair share of trouble "on the pavements". This law is a terrible idea - but make no mistake - the author knows exactly how it will be levied.
- tehwalrus 13y agoTreating a group differently because a similar group was trouble in the past is no way to run a police service! If it's a bunch of people affiliated with a political ideology (e.g. EDL marches, occupy) then you might have a point since they're voluntarily associating - but profiling based on age, race, what type of entertainment they're queuing for, that is unjustifiable! think of the number of false positives....
- gaius 13y agoThe existence of football hooligans would tend to disprove that. Also punks. You can actually very easily correlate "trouble" with "preferred entertainment".
- mcv 13y agoI'm wondering: where is the new George Orwell? Why aren't all writers writing about this? Clearly we need a new 1984, because we didn't learn anything from the original.
- simias 13y agoI doubt a book would make much difference. Something with more mass appeal, like a movie or TV show maybe. But it's still a long shot IMHO. Or you know, we could vote those people out of office. We keep bashing those clueless politicians but we did put them here in the first place. We don't even have the excuse of dictatorship. This tendency around these parts to look for technical solutions (tor, bitcoin, etc...) for political problems is very saddening. Assuming most of the readers of HN come from democratic countries, we shouldn't have to fear our government. No amount of openSSL will fix that problem.
- Ntrails 13y agoMaybe the next series of Black Mirror will have something that covers these things more specifically? I think it's covered some very interesting concepts already.
- seabee 13y agoWhat more do you think can be said that the last episode of Black Mirror (fictional character as MP) didn't say?
- shawabawa3 13y ago> Or you know, we could vote those people out of office. We keep bashing those clueless politicians but we did put them here in the first place. We don't even have the excuse of dictatorship. The sad truth is that politics is basically a marketing game. Whoever pours the most money into ads and campaigning has the best chance of winning [1]. There aren't enough people who care enough to do their own research to make a real difference [1] http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/dec/02/conservatives-spent-twice-labour-election-campaign - In the last general election the results mirrored marketing budgets.
- tlrobinson 13y agoIt blows my mind that this is possible in a country like the UK. Surely such a law would be considered unconstitutional in the US? Of course I also didn't think we were quite so far along the path to a complete surveillance state in the US until Snowden's revelations.
- Silhouette 13y agoIt blows my mind that this is possible in a country like the UK. It remains to be seen whether it really is, and if so, for how long. Remember, this is basically all being done because ASBOs have been a failure by almost any metric you can imagine. They were always controversial on civil liberties grounds. They became a badge of honour, or perhaps I should say an achievement to be unlocked, for many of the very people whose behaviour they were supposed to moderate. They were widely ignored by those supposedly constrained by them. And they didn't get a free ride when they were inevitably challenged in court, either.
- stevejones 13y agoThey were also challenged by the courts so parliament is basically remaking them in their original form again. Given that criminal barristers are protesting poor working conditions right now I think the government might want to think about making enemies in the legal profession. Ha, who am I kidding. This government thinks they're above everything.
- 001sky 13y agoThose who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. (JFK) Not sure what they are so affraid of?
- arethuza 13y agoThis week the British public is being told to be afraid of Romanians and Bulgarians: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/03/romanians-and-bulgarians-in-the-uk-react-to-immigration-furore http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/03/romanians-and...
- return0 13y agoOr otherwise they are being (fakely?) welcomed http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21591865-open-letter-citizens-bulgaria-and-romania-youre-welcome http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21591865-open-letter-c...
- Theodores 13y agoOr... In a society that has abolished every kind of adventure the only adventure that remains is to abolish the society. http://www.bopsecrets.org/CF/graffiti.htm http://www.bopsecrets.org/CF/graffiti.htm
- retube 13y agoSadly Britain does have a problem in some communities with ingrained, persistent and extremely damaging anti-social behaviour.
- MichaelGG 13y agoSo why can't that behaviour be directly outlawed as a class? From what I understand of an asbo, it targets an individual directly.
- simonh 13y agoIt's like a kid in class that would stare at you constantly and if you complained say "All I'm doing is just looking at you. I can look at you can't I? Other people look at you all the time and you don't complain!". Some behaviors can fine by themselves or excusable as one-offs, but become obnoxious in particular circumstances, often persistent repetition such as constantly playing very loud music, persistently parking a car in front of someone's driveway, etc. We all have the right to do many things, but in some situations if those rights are persistently abused it can be fair that there's a way to withdraw them, or escalate the penalty of an otherwise minor infraction, but only in specific circumstances.
- officemonkey 13y ago>It's like a kid in class that would stare at you constantly This may be annoying, but it is not a crime. Loud music, blocking driveways: now there are often existing rules about these. Rules that are objective (eg: no noise heard in a residence that exceeds 40 db between 9 PM and 8 AM) are the right way to stop the nuisance behavior not: "I don't like your looks, so you can't make any noise here."
- koralatov 13y agoRules that are objective (eg: no noise heard in a residence that exceeds 40 db between 9 PM and 8 AM) are the right way to stop the nuisance behavior not[.] On paper, that sort of thing is great, but as far as I've seen, it falls apart pretty quickly in practice. As someone currently trying, and failing, to use proper channels to deal with antisocial behaviour from a neighbour, the `objective' rules actually end up tying the hands of those trying to fix the problem. What starts out as a well-intentioned action with the aim of ensuring fairness pretty quickly ends up acting as a shield for the offender and a roadblock for the victim. In my particular case, and the case of several others with whom I've spoken, the problem is compounded because the victims have Uni degrees and non-regional accents, so they're clearly bo-boes throwing their weight about and drive out the `disadvantaged'.
- itchitawa 13y agoHow many people are afraid to walk down a dark alley at night? That's a freedom we should have but plenty of people are forced to get a taxi or stay home because of a real fear of being robbed. I live in a city where it is safe, even for young women alone and I'm amazed when I remember what a restricted life it was in more dangerous, yet more "free" cities. If someone demands money from you in a deserted street, do you have the courage to refuse? If not then you need something, perhaps not these poorly defined laws begging to be abused, but something to protect you from those subtle threats that constantly erode your quality of life.
- Silhouette 13y agoHow many people are afraid to walk down a dark alley at night? That's a freedom we should have It is also a freedom that a group of 15-year-olds in fashionable clothes, a homeless person, or someone who just bought a bottle of wine from the shop should have. If someone demands money from you in a deserted street, do you have the courage to refuse? If they demand money from you, they are almost certainly committing at least one criminal offence, and you should probably call the police. If they ask for money from you, and you don't want to give any, just say no. If not then you need something A spine, perhaps? A little recognition that not everyone in the world is as fortunate as probably everyone reading these posts wouldn't go amiss, either. There are good reasons to create and enforce laws, but I don't think prohibiting otherwise harmless activities because someone in a more powerful social class doesn't like them should be among those reasons.
- benjamta 13y agoVery well said. Tackling a problem with a broad brush law that grants liberties to one group while denying those same liberties from another should never be the answer.
- MichaelGG 13y agoThe answer to that is proper policing force, not custom laws that ban individuals from begging. It's not a beggars fault if a non-harassing "got any change" makes you feel uncomfortable.
- Xylakant 13y agoWe can watch a similar thing unfolding in Hamburg at the moment. Following a demonstration that ended up in street fights and an alleged attack on a police station, large parts of the central districts were declared a "Gefahrenzone" (danger zone) where the police has special rights to check persons and deny them entry into that area. This is a special provision in Hamburgs police law that allows the police itself to declare such a zone with very little judical oversight. AFAIK this is the first time this has happened on a large scale, it's interesting to watch events unfold.
- arethuza 13y agoSounds just like the UK: http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/mar/23/police-terrorism-protest-g20-law http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/mar/23/police-terrorism-p... "It is being misused because the police have the power to impose a blanket area, where any police officer can search anyone without reason for suspicion on the basis that a senior police officer has thought that there might be terrorist activity or terrorists operating in the area."
- Silhouette 13y agoThat article dates from 2009, but section 44 of the Terrorism Act, which allowed for stop-and-search without suspicion, was suspended following a 2010 ruling by the ECHR that it violated Article 8. In various developments since that suspension, it doesn't look like anything as sweeping as the previous powers will be coming back any time soon.
- makomk 13y agoWell, not until the current government manages to abolish or abandon the ECHR, something they've consistently and publicly stated they want to do.
- Silhouette 13y agoTo be fair, the political leaders are damned whatever they do on this issue now. On the one hand, we have the principled argument of H. L. Mencken, "The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all." On the other hand, we have had a few very high profile cases recently where it's hard to see how even a generous interpretation of proper human rights safeguards should protect someone, yet that person has won legal battles time after time in court using technicalities and weasel words. In most cases, those victories are ultimately won in the European Court after failing in all national courts here in the UK. And these are the ones that make the headlines and force politicians to react. What is easy to forget when looking at the latter cases is how often the European Court has also told a current UK administration it had gone too far, often in granting sweeping powers to police forces and security services in recent years. A majority of voters might have agreed with those decisions if they were pointed out, but the related stories aren't always front page material. In short, I suspect a lot of the talk about getting rid of ECHR and the Human Rights Acts is populist politics. No political party is seriously proposing getting rid of those without at least introducing some other form of human rights legislation instead, but then at least they've done something. I'm guessing that being the politician who didn't do anything after stories about Abu Hamza not being deported have been on the front page of the Daily Mail for years is probably not a good way to win your next election.
- spindritf 13y agoFour paragraphs of lamentations about exclusion, inequality, sanitization, poor, young, etc. before any hard facts and seven before the actual topic is brushed. Oh, and no sources or references for the events he describes. Asbos have been granted which forbid the carrying of condoms by a prostitute, homeless alcoholics from possessing alcohol in a public place, a soup kitchen from giving food to the poor, a young man from walking down any road other than his own OK, it's not a news article but there are blogs much better than this. Apart from people who already know what he's writing about and agree with him, who would want to read this piece of pure mood affiliation? No wonder they're in the red. EDIT: This https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/pdfs/policy13/liberty-s-briefing-on-the-draft-anti-social-behaviour-bill-feb-2013-.pdf https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/pdfs/policy13/libert... [pdf] is supposedly the source, according to the "fully referenced" version on his website. The word 'soup' is not used there at all. I will not shed one tear for a profession that cannot master a hyperlink.
- atmosx 13y agoWhat do you mean they are in the red? Are you talking about their financial situation?
- SideburnsOfDoom 13y agoHe is probably referring to the fact that the Guardian newspaper does not make a profit ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian ). It's not relevant, as I'm sure that George Monbiot does not care about this, the Guardian is aware of it, and none of these parties would give a flying feather what spindritf's opinion on this topic is.
- andyjohnson0 13y agoSame with The Times and Independent. The Telegraph is the only national non-tabloid newspaper in the UK that makes a profit. http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2013/may/24/telegraphmediagroup-barclay-brothers http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2013/may/24/tele...
- piqufoh 13y ago> Advertisers, who cause plenty of nuisance and annoyance, have nothing to fear; Why not? Can I not pursue an IPNA against these parasites?
- timthorn 13y agoThe Manifesto Club is a strong campaigning organisation against this kind of regulation - http://www.manifestoclub.com/ http://www.manifestoclub.com/
- tehwalrus 13y agoHe lays this at Norman Baker's feet, who has only been in the job a few months (although he has apparently defended the new law). As a fellow Lib Dem I'm thoroughly ashamed that this is getting anywhere with us in the government, and I've tweeted him (Baker) to challenge his position - his account looks like a bog standard politician's announcement feed, no interactions with other accounts save the odd retweet, so I don't expect he'll respond (if he does fast enough for an edit, I'll link to it here). ASBOs have been awful - I remember hearing about a case my dad sat on (he's a magistrate) where a homeless guy, who had been seriously assaulted, was up on charges of breaching his no-swearing ASBO for his reaction to the police ignoring him while he sat their bleeding! Very unpleasant laws used to attack the vulnerable, and they're making them even more wide-ranging. I am fuming!
- mratzloff 13y agoMaybe this law is so far along because the only challenges it receives are unanswered tweets. Try calling his office instead. It is a thousand times more effective.
- gadders 13y agoI'm not sure if ASBOs are perfect, but for anyone that has had to share a street with (for want of a better word) complete arsehole neighbours, I should imagine they are a god send.
- MichaelGG 13y agoCan you elaborate an example where the neighbour is not violating any laws or bylaws, and needs a tailored law against them? Best I can come up with off the top of my head is a restraining order, when there's obvious potential for very damaging acts, but no crime has been committed yet, or for parole type scenarios.
- gadders 13y agoTBH, I don't know enough of the law to provide an example. There may well be laws that would cover the case, but the ASBOs seem to be the preferred instrument by councils or whoever. If I was the person suffering the harrassment/noise pollution/whatever, I wouldn't really care what legal instrument was used.
- resurge 13y agoThe same exists in Belgium for about a year or so where it's called a "GAS boete" (Gemeentelijke administratieve sanctie ~= muncipial administrative sanction). They have been the subject of a lot of dismay among people because they're often used for the wrong thing. Some stupid reasons to get a GAS fine are: - Eating a sandwich on the porch of a church - Posting negative comments about the police on a news website - Kids can't play football when the pidgeon herders (? - NL: duivenmelker) are managing their pidgeons. - sitting on the back part of a bench - Putting garbage from your car in to a public trash can. (yes, IN TO the trash can, not next to it) It was seen as illegal dumping of trash (NL: sluikstorten) Source: http://www.knack.be/nieuws/belgie/top-100-van-de-absurdste-gas-boetes-een-klucht-zonder-weerga/article-opinion-120656.html http://www.knack.be/nieuws/belgie/top-100-van-de-absurdste-g...
- knapp 13y ago"duivenmelker" in English (at least British English) would be "pigeon fancier". http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/pigeon-fancier http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/pigeon-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeon_fancier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeon_fancier
- bayesianhorse 13y agoTo a German ear it sounds like pigeon milker... I actually don't fancy this sport or hobby. You just have to pay attention the "feral" pigeons running about in the cities. Many of them have exactly one crippled leg, where their band originally was. After the pigeon doesn't return home, this thing cuts into the leg over time and in a slow and painful process the leg falls off...
- jon-wood 13y agoI do voluntary work with the sort of kids this law has been designed to target - the ones who walk around a council estate causing trouble, because there's nowhere for them to go but home, where they can look forward to crowded houses and parents who are high. There are two approaches to dealing with that problem. The first is laws like this, which allow the police to prosecute them simply for walking the streets in a group, and set them up for life with a criminal record. That will inevitably lead to worse crimes in the future as they find themselves unable to work because of that record. Alternatively the government could stop cutting funding for organisations that try to provide a place where they can go and be children without causing others trouble. Youth centres are shutting down due to a lack of funding - the one I volunteer at only functions because its funded by a local church, and even then it only just scrapes by. Honestly, I don't really know where I'm going with this, other than needing to rant about the fucked up approach this government is taking with their "Big Society", carefully focused on making sure the poor are criminalised, and the rich don't have to worry about supporting them.
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- Sharlin 13y agoThis is basically again an instance of the ages-old problem of symptoms being easier to treat than the disease. And that's assuming the disease is even identified correctly in the first place.
- loceng 13y agoThe dis-ease is the current distribution of resources, which is a symptom or side-effect of capitalism evolving to its extremities - those systems can be influenced to incentivize different behaviours and patterns though to correct the dis-ease. If people believe resources are scarce, then there may be an issue. If people believe we have access - through human will, passion, and ingenuity - to the resources of the whole universe, then scarcity is only an illusion and we need not allow this fear to perpetuate, as it only leads to unnecessary suffering through fear of survival, and fear-mongers being able to control populations and create wars or at minimum perpetuate the suffering of one group for the gain of what they consider their own population.
- girvo 13y agoQuestion: have things always been like this in the past few decades? Have we always gated off our poor, and passed laws to harass them? How can we change it, and will we ever? I honestly am asking, not rhetorical.
- stevejones 13y agoThe Vagrancy Act was passed in 1824.
- dschiptsov 13y agoAs history repeatedly told us, such laws will result in strong oppositions and extremism. Even Russians finally got it.)
- oscargrouch 13y agopeople would be able to organize protests? it looks more like a "manifestation censorship"... this is the established power controlling what people can and cannot in public spaces in a spooky way.. this is ridiculous.. sorry to tell you that but.. you are no longer in a democracy in UK.. because you dont control anything anymore Is not politicians that should control people, but people that should control politicians
- bayesianhorse 13y agoHm, the United Queendom's people should revoke those laws as incompatible with their constitution. Oh wait. They don't have one ...
- coldcode 13y agoAlthough the article is pretty lame, it seems to me that the UK is turning out more and to resemble 1984.