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Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid
- TallGuyShort 13y agoI can't help but get the feeling, especially from the way things are cited in the article, that the NSA spying was not the cause of Boeing's bid souring, but rather that the decision was used as an opportunity to put some pressure on the NSA. Good on them either way. The economic impact is just one of the ways this program hurts Americans as well as foreign nationals.
- rbanffy 13y agoThe F/A-18 had the higher cost of all three final options. Also, the lack of a full technology transfer program (only the Gripen NG proposal had it, including local production) and the possibility of backdoors in any of the multitude of unauditable software systems that fly the planes sealed its fate. The Rafale was closer, but the high cost of maintenance did it.
- adamnemecek 13y agoA while back I came across this wiki article which is relevant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial_espionage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial_...
- joering2 13y agoThanks i had no idea. Long story short: while totally denying its existance the pact of USA, UK and many other countires spent billions of dollars to built sattelite-communication interceptinig facilities... while 99% of world's traffic moved into fiber optic undersea cables by 2006.
- dmix 13y agoBoeing builds spy satellites for the US gov and their "Boeing Defense, Space & Security" division is deeply embedded in the intelligence community. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/11/washington/11satellite.html http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/11/washington/11satellite.htm... http://ctovision.com/2010/09/new-boeing-intelligence-collaboration-center/ http://ctovision.com/2010/09/new-boeing-intelligence-collabo...
- _djo_ 13y agoClaiming that the NSA scandal is the primary reason for the Saab win is an overly US-centric view. While there's evidence that Boeing's chances were hurt by the NSA revelations, it's not true that Boeing was a clear favourite. Both Saab and Dassault had presented strong bids and were considered serious contenders, particularly as both offered much higher industrial participation and technology sharing than Boeing and as such had the support of Brazil's aviation industry. That cannot be underestimated, and it's why Boeing was at a disadvantage even before the NSA story broke. The Saab Gripen met Brazil's FX-2 requirements, it has a lower operating cost than the Rafale or Super Hornet, Saab has agreed to transfer a massive amount of technology and Sweden has committed to investigate a quid pro quo acquisition of Brazilian KC-390 tanker transports. Boeing could not match all that.
- rosser 13y agoClaiming that the NSA scandal is the primary reason for the Saab win is an overly US-centric view. From TFA: "Until earlier this year, Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet had been considered the front runner... "The NSA problem ruined it for the Americans," a Brazilian government source said on condition of anonymity." Does it remain a "US-centric view" when Brazil is the party saying, "Because NSA"?
- _djo_ 13y agoThe article does not source the claim about the Super Hornet being the front-runner, although previous reports have claimed that Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff preferred the Super Hornet for political reasons. The part of the sentence that's an actual quote doesn't contradict my post.
- fiatmoney 13y agoEven if the NSA's spying program ended up not affecting the outcome of the fighter decision, it can still be worthwhile to claim that it did if they have an independent goal of reducing that program.
- pauljburke 13y ago
- flexie 13y agoMaybe Saab won because they had a better offer. And maybe Boing usually wins these deals because they have the backing of large intelligence agencies. Who knows.
- rjd 13y agoWho knows ... maybe this guy : "The NSA problem ruined it for the Americans," a Brazilian government source said on condition of anonymity."
- jeltz 13y agoCould be. A popular theory is that in Norway Saab lost due to diplomatic pressure from the US. "In the fall of 08, we invited a number of USG officials to visit Oslo to make the public case on why the F-35 is an excellent choice, and the private case on why the choice of aircraft will have an impact on the bilateral relationship (see refs A,B)." https://www.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08OSLO670_a.html https://www.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08OSLO670_a.html
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- msantos 13y agoThe French bid was turned down by the President herself after major set backs in the current France-Brazil partnership building a nuclear submarine for the Brazilian Navy. Not mentioned here is the fact that old conspiracy theories surrounding the explosion that destroyed the Alcantara launch pad and killed the cream of the crop of the Brazilian space program, have recently been resurrected and it's believed plausible by some members of the Brazilian government although not widely publicized. Some blame the French for possible sabotaging it. Over the years the Brazilian secret service (ABIN), have arrested several French spies around Alcantara - the latest case was that a French spy posing as kitesurf instructor. Other cases include water buoys found at sea near the Air Base loaded with electronics, also blamed on the French. EDIT: added a few sources (sorry portuguese only) http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/fsp/poder/137424-suspeita-de-sabotagem-fez-brasil-investigar-franceses-em-alcantara.shtml http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/fsp/poder/137424-suspeita-de-sa... http://www.metro.org.br/jose_alves/os-cacas-militares-e-as-boias-de-alcantara http://www.metro.org.br/jose_alves/os-cacas-militares-e-as-b... http://jornalpequeno.com.br/2013/11/22/governo-confirma-contraespionagem-em-alcantara-para-apurar-sabotagem/ http://jornalpequeno.com.br/2013/11/22/governo-confirma-cont... http://www.planobrazil.com/dez-anos-depois-explosao-de-foguete-ainda-trava-setor-espacial-brasileiro/ http://www.planobrazil.com/dez-anos-depois-explosao-de-fogue... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_rocket_explosion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_rocket_explosion
- doctorstupid 13y agoThe U.S. has played dirty against the Saab Gripen before. See the Norwegian section of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_Gripen#Failed_bids http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_Gripen#Failed_bids
- AmVess 13y agoNot to mention also killing off Canada's Avro jet company.
- r-s 13y agoI was actually taught about Avro in Canada in grade 5. Would have been about 1998 or so. I Some very interesting stories about the company, and hundreds of conspiracy theories as well. Very interesting company to say the least.
- mpyne 13y agoDidn't sound like the U.S. killed off Avro, as much as a new Canadian PM did. But the U.S. did scoop up the ex-Avro employees to bootstrap their fledgling space program.
- GFischer 13y agoFrom your link it seems that, ironically, choosing the Gripen does not lessen the dependency on U.S. materials: "Indian Air Force officials, while happy with the improved capabilities of Gripen NG, identified its high reliance on US-supplied hardware, including electronics, weaponry and the GE F414 engine"
- neves 13y agoMirian Leitão is anti-governist and one of the main economical commenters of Brazilian media. She says that it was the NSA that kept Boing off the deal: http://oglobo.globo.com/economia/miriam/posts/2013/12/18/compra-de-cacas-preco-afastou-franceses-espionagem-afastou-boeing-518571.asp http://oglobo.globo.com/economia/miriam/posts/2013/12/18/com...
- a3n 13y ago"kept Boing ..." It's Boeing, with an 'e'. Mnemonic: "Boeing planes don't go boing." :)
- wil421 13y agoThat's fine as long as we keep Lockheed planes to ourselves. Nothing beats the F22.
- Theodores 13y agoThe Gripen can land on a relatively short stretch of road, a team of six can get it ready for its next flight and it can take off from the same road. The F22 is not a STOL aircraft. Given standard NATO practice of taking out the radar and the runways in the first few femto-seconds of a 'war', I think this feature makes the Gripen worthy of consideration. That said, do features really matter in the arms trade?
- marcosdumay 13y ago> That said, do features really matter in the arms trade? I dunno. Will the next serious war use planes at all? Or something smaller (I bet on smaller, for air and water)? Anyway, Brazilian fighters are modeled to beat a defensive war against Venezuela. I guess the F22 is not the best fighter to use over the Amazon florest (but I don't know muh).
- yxhuvud 13y agoFor water, the most cost effective is submarines, and has been submarines since before WWII. Big ships are an expensive way of giving the enemy some target practice.
- msantos 13y agoYour comment is borderline idiotic. And you clearly don't understand the difference between multirole, flighter and attack jets.
- wil421 13y agoI guess I am an idiot. Honestly HN is really turning into reddit. Que more down votes! I will never get to that down vote feature threshold.
- comatose_kid 13y agoIn b-school, we talk a lot about political risk - mainly in terms of emerging economies. The US government's actions are resulting in events that will heighten investor perceptions of political risk here too.
- ascendantlogic 13y agoGood, this clearly isn't going to change because of moral reasons. The only way the US government is going to change direction on this is if it hurts them where they really care, which is "their" pocketbooks. "Their" in quotes because really it's the pocketbooks of the companies that give them millions to re-elect them.
- nsa-agent 13y agonot true
- tn13 13y agoI don't see how NSA scandal should affect this deal. You dont snap such major deals because you want to insult someone. That is childish. However if Brazil believed that US manufactures might help NSA in planting backdoors, malware into their equipment they could have simply stated it more publicly and done even greater damage to American companies. The weapon manufacturers + US government nexus has changed world politics over last 50 years. In case of India and Pakistan, US has provided fuel to the conflict just to make more profit from this. Sooner or later the developed world is going to see through the US policy of benefiting from conflict. China is already self dependent in heavy arms manufacturing, India is slow but reaching there. In probably next 20 years, US monopoly on defense equipment will end.
- mcosta 13y agoI'm pretty confident in 20 years those countries will be 15 years behind USA weapons.
- chris_wot 13y agoI seem to recall another empire once said that the sun would never set over it.
- atmosx 13y agoReally? Back in 1999 I could not have imagined that although in 2008 Georgia would invade S. Ossetia with the blessings of the USA, will get slapped by the Russian army that way and the USA will just ... do nothing about it. Nor that in 2013 an NSA employee will be in Russia embarrassing the USA like this, without the USA doing nothing. It's not that Obama is good and G. W. Bush is bad. It's more that the times are A changin'.
- internalaudit 13y agoBrazil did not state this publicly but everybody understood it that way. Boeing was definitely bound to install NSA malware in the fighter jets. Nobody has the slightest doubt about that.
- mkuhn 13y agoSwitzerland made a comparable decision this year selecting the Gripen [1] which beat the Rafale, and Eurofighter (Boeing retracted the bid for the Super Hornet). The decision happened long before the NSA revelations and I think that shows that the Gripen has things that speak for it on its own. [1] http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/switzerland-replacing-its-f-5s-04624/ http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/switzerland-replacing-it...
- yononabike 13y agoperhaps Brazil is just growing into its own. The BRIC countries are all maturing, and perhaps, with that comes a more independent - non US dependent - stance.
- bananacurve 13y agoThis is fodder for wankers. Delude yourself if you like, but it only strengthens America.
- JebediahK 13y agoI cant hear you over this much FREEDOM. Murica fo eva
- jusben1369 13y agoSounds like Brazil went with the low price leader (French comments were interesting) and didn't miss a chance to stick it in the eye of the US with a couple of anonymous quotes. If you follow the other logic it's pretty depressing "Yes, you had the better technology and were the preferred choice but we went with an inferior product because of spying and no that wouldn't make us feel really stupid if we get into a war with a neighbor who outguns us in the skies because they have better product at least we stuck it to the US in 2013!"
- jeltz 13y agoA third possible explanation could be (I do not know enough about US-Brazilian relations to know if it is plausible): Before we thought you were an ally we could trust, so we were going to buy your overpriced jets to strengthen the friendship. Now that you have showed your true face we are going to go with the lowest bidder instead. Saab has lost several bids due to countries buying worse planes from the US for diplomatic purposes.
- JebediahK 13y agoBrazil would only buy overpriced from USA if 1. There is some payback to be had. 2. There is some bribery to be received. 3. There is money to be allocated to a personal account. 4. The USA is arm wrenching some official using information illegally obtained.
- sharprazor 13y agoWhat makes you think that the F-18 is the best warplane of the bunch?
- msantos 13y agoAs the article clearly says, this was an off-and-on deal rolling for years. "Fan fact" the Brazilian government has been seating on this project to renew the aging Air Force's fleet since 1994. And in 2001/2002 the contenters were (in no specific order): - Sukhoi Su-35 - Eurofighter Typhoon - General Dynamics/Lockheed Martin F-16 - Mikoyan MiG-29 - Saab JAS 39 Gripen - McDonnell Douglas/Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet - Dassault Rafale
- hcarvalhoalves 13y agoI'm Brazilian. Here's my opinion: The reason they mention it was the NSA is because the government wants to capitalize on the anti-american commotion (and it's working). The real reason is that Boeing is a competitor to Embraer, so transfer of technology would be limited. Boeing simply had a worse, more expensive offer.
- oscargrouch 13y agoI wouldnt say "anti-american" but "anti-NSA".. And its pretty deserved, and im saying that also as a brazilian, cause: would you trust in the software, hardware and firmware of those after all we know about the NSA revelations? worse yet , if you think you dont have access to the source code, or to modify any part of it, as a pure blackbox.. Would you trust your country safety and security to something that its very likely to be a trojan horse(somehow), after all we know now? How can you trust your defense to something or somebody you cant trust at all? (and lets not forget that Embraer was on the NSA espionage files too) So, this is not "anti-american", but a pretty wise decision.. forgeting all the politics involved in the case.. Its pretty rational
- hcarvalhoalves 13y agoFirst, the Boeing offer wasn't even top 5 anymore. The only companies still on the bid were Dassault and Saab (favored by the military). Then, out of the blue, they come and announce... "we finally settled on Saab instead of Boeing because of NSA"... Give me a break. Dilma is crazy to boost the government's image, internal and worldwide, making our country look like a bastion of freedom and democracy, when we both know it's none of that (unless you work for the government). I agree with everything said about NSA, but we can't be naive to the fact this is going to be used as a PWMD (Political Weapon of Mass Destruction) to justify anything from now on.
- buzaga41 13y agoThey're just passing the political bill for the USA to pay, of course it wasn't the reason for the deal, things aren't that simple. But politics is everywhere, the USA is always trying to get it's way, has used spying to cut deals, spies on everyone, etc... I'm all for all countries everywhere playing this card every time they can, why not?
- caprad 13y ago> A U.S. source close to the negotiations said that whatever intelligence the spying had delivered for the American government was unlikely to outweigh the commercial cost of the revelations. This to me is the most interesting quote. Although vague, you just have to wonder how much of this spy data goes to companies? Anyone can understand that the US has an interest in maintaining the importance of their own corporations around the world.
- senthilnayagam 13y agoIndia snubbed America in 2011 by not giving the 11 billion $ fighter jet deal, even though Obama lobbied for it. Bad US behavior does impact their business . Expect similar action for the Indian Diplomat arrest case
- downandout 13y agoI consider this to be a good thing. Boeing is going to run to their lobbyists screaming bloody murder. The lobbyists will then ensure that the right palms are greased, the right fundraisers are held, and the right golf invitations are issued. Suddenly, there will be movement on the issue at the highest levels of government. It is sad that this is how it works, and that it takes evidence of a large corporation losing money to be the catalyst for change. But at least it will work in our favor for once.
- Havoc 13y agoWell this is interesting. Everyone including the Americans are up in arms about the NSA thing....right up until it gets blamed for a lost bid. Some weird psychological bias at work here though I can't quite put my finger on it.
- brosco45 13y agoThe end of US tech dominance is at hand.
- drewblay 13y agoDidn't Saab go under? Or was that just their automotive division?
- kalleboo 13y agoOnly automotive, which was a separate company under GM stewardship. Same as how Volvo Cars (under Ford) went bust, but Volvo Trucks is still going well.
- ddade 13y agoWhatever Brazil loses in capability, Rouseff gets back in her relations with her neighbors. I guarantee there's isn't a head of state in South America that hasn't sent her an 'ataboy. Brazil even further establishes itself as the country that matters in South America. That's worth 36 planes that will never fire a shot in anger anyway...
- _djo_ 13y agoThe Gripen NG does not appear to be any less capable than the Super Hornet, with the exception of being single-engined as opposed to dual-engined.
- GigabyteCoin 13y agoThis is sickening. I live in Canada, and this directly affects a friend's family of mine considerably. Both my friend and his father are full time factory workers at a company called "Goodrich". They machine landing gear primarily for Boeing jets. This means less available-overtime at the very least (which many of the workers rely on), and possibly lost wage increases in the future. Who knows.
- sleepyK 13y agoI sympathize with you, but Boeing never had a chance if one goes purely by cost: benefit comparisons. The only way they could have won this is if they lobbied enough for the Brazilians to look past the significant shortcomings of the Boeing aircraft. And I think even then their lack of cooperation when it comes to transfer of technology and offsets would have sabotaged the deal. Brazil already has a very reliable civilian aircraft maker in Embraer, and they are looking to bootstrap them into defense through transfer of technology. Boeing never would have done that.
- internalaudit 13y agoDistrust is a very strong motivation to reject a bid. If Boeing had won the bid, the NSA would have armed themselves with a FISA court order, mandating Boeing to install malware in the fighter jets, along with a gag order forbidden Boeing to tell Brazil. Due to their massive internal audit problem, the one or the other rogue NSA contractor would end up selling off a copy of the specifications describing the backdoor to crime syndicates, who would then be able to blackmail the Brazilian government. To cut a long story short, it has now become impossible to buy any American technology product which contains proprietary software or hardware. It must now all be open source and open design and then reviewed by non-American experts at the expense of the American company trying to sell its gear.
- sleepyK 13y agoThe Gripen is simply the most cost effective choice of aircraft.... It already uses a lot of American technology, so backdoors probably exist, but it is a newer design than the old airframe of the FA-18, and it's easier to service than the Rafale. The IAF had conducted multiple tests during their MMRCA competition, and Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen came out as a equally matched, with some saying that the Typhoon was an inferior plane. In the end, Rafale won the Indian competition because of intense lobbying by the French, with their Premier paying a visit to India to clench the deal. Saab was very open for transfer of technology at that time, and I imagine it still is, which would be one of the biggest factors in their favour. There have also been some rumors about the less than stellar performance of the Rafale in recent conflict situations which I'm sure also contributed to the deal.
- shin_lao 13y agoI agree with everything you said, but a minor correction: the Rafale has not been exported yet, India has yet to acquire it.
- internalaudit 13y agoThe lavabit case warns against using proprietary American software or services that use it or simply cloud services located in the USA. We know that the NSA will issue a gag order and demand that the software or service provider installs backdoors without telling his foreign clients. If US-based technology companies want to be considered as potential candidates, they will have to surrender the entire source code for the software and the full design specifications for the hardware, and pay for non-American experts to fully inspect it. Otherwise, no foreign company in their right mind will buy their gear any longer. The NSA-inspired breach of trust pretty much signifies the beginning of the end for US-originated technology exports to the rest of the world.
- Mikeb85 13y agoWhile it's a good opportunity to take a political jab at the US, the F-18 was never a contender. Both the Rafale and Gripen are much better choices. The Gripen especially, it's probably the best performing plane per dollar in the world - and has a lot of advantages besides sheer performance...
- darkbot 13y agoJust so you know, FRA and NSA are best buddies. FRA is the Swedish equivalent to NSA. http://www.svt.se/ug/fra-part-of-top-secret-hacker-project http://www.svt.se/ug/fra-part-of-top-secret-hacker-project
- gverri 13y agoAs I remember the F/A-18 was always considered a front runner for political reasons (pressure). It caused a lot of commotion among those who really understand about aeronautics. And it's clear that the last choice was a political one also.
- atmosx 13y agooff-topic: I am thrilled to read incredible insightful comments in posts like this. HN intrinsic value is incredible.
- facorreia 13y agoIn other news: "Army officials claim that their ammunition stocks are going to last for just one hour of war" http://www.brazildefence.com/army-officials-claim-that-their-ammunition-stocks-are-going-to-last-for-just-one-hour-of-war-133/ http://www.brazildefence.com/army-officials-claim-that-their... http://www.brazzilmag.com/home/113-august-2012/12921-one-hour-of-war-thats-all-brazil-has-ammunition-for.html http://www.brazzilmag.com/home/113-august-2012/12921-one-hou...
- sebcat 13y agoSweden sent five JAS39C Gripen to Libya as a part of Operation Unified Protector in 2011. I was told that they performed well in the surveilance role with their "spaningskapsel" (surveilance capsule?), providing intel to the coalition. If anyone has any insight in how well Gripen as a platform performed during that op, please share.