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The simplest (and arguably most egregious) example is the sex industry's use of children. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_sexual_exploitation_of_childre

The simplest (and arguably most egregious) example is the sex industry's use of children. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_sexual_exploitation_of_children http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_sexual_exploitation_...

MichaelGG 13y ago
But that's not really related to cam studios where people voluntarily decide to perform.
- DanBC 13y ago
  Some people like sex, and they like getting paid for sex work. That's not true for most people involved in sex work. It's not a free choice they've made. They find themselves in that situation to pay for drugs, or alcohol, or to pay off debts, or because they're modern slaves. Camming is the lighter end of sex work, and thus the ratio of willing : unwilling workers is better than for other sex work, but it's still more likely to be harmful than harm free.
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    > Some people like sex, and they like getting paid for sex work. > That's not true for most people involved in sex work. You know, if you dropped "sex" for most other domains wherein people might work, that'd probably still be true. There's probably a few areas of work where most people work in the domain because they like it, but for most domains of work people work in the domain because they need the money and working in the domain is the best way they feel they have of making the money they need. Socially taboo -- and, even moreso, illegal -- domains of work, naturally, increase the risk of people being stuck in them and being less able to move to other domains of work later, and they also increase the risk of exploitation (because people feel trapped in them, because subject to abuse have less ability to address abuse, and because the social taboo (or illegality) of working in the domain naturally means that people, even if they like the domain, are less likely to choose it as a domain of work if they have other viable options, meaning the people that do end up there are usually the most vulnerable to exploitation in the first place.
  - jpatokal 13y ago
    Not liking your job != exploitation. There are plenty of people out there working shit jobs to pay off debts or a support a family, even though if they have a choice they'd be drinking daiquiris on Aruba, but that does not make them "modern slaves".
    - btilly 13y ago
      I read the phrase "modern slaves" as an accurate description for a sadly large number of sex workers worldwide. See http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hookers-in-the-holy-land-an-uncomfortable-history-in-israel/ http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hookers-in-the-holy-land-an-u... for an example of something that qualifies for that description.
    - DanBC 13y ago
      There's a difference between being coerced to have sex with someone that you don't want to have sex with and doing photocopying.
      - Dylan16807 13y ago
        You can make just as much of an inequality in the other direction. There's a difference between chatting with someone you don't know in a skimpy outfit and doing repetitive manual labor in the heat and sun for 12 hours a day. Outside of human trafficking (which I acknowledge as an important problem) it's pretty hard to get coerced into prostitution.
        btilly 13y ago
        Outside of human trafficking (which I acknowledge as an important problem) it's pretty hard to get coerced into prostitution. No, not hard at all. I had a friend from high school who met a guy at a party. He gave her drugs. Before long, she was addicted. She couldn't afford the habit. He let her get into full withdrawal, then offered her drugs if she'd have sex with his friends. She did. A week later, she had dropped out of law school and was working a street corner. My understanding is that this is a fairly common path into prostitution.
  - bdamm 13y ago
    Or is it the other way around... the harmed (abused, psychologically dysfunctional) who find themselves unable to operate within normal societal bounds, start to "get creative" about their work options? No wonder, then, that such folks find themselves hurt by the work or perhaps drawn deeper into the vortex to earn a better income; they were already unable to pursue more typical paths.
  - enjo 13y ago
    That's not true for most people involved in sex work Citation? I'm taking particular umbrage with "most".
  - girvo 13y ago
    I worked as a software engineer to pay for my heroin addiction (am now clean), and allowed myself to be exploited at some pretty terrible places. I don't really have a point with that post, I just never drew the parallel before. I was very lucky I had skills that are wanted and pay well.
- tga_d 13y ago
  For varying definitions of "voluntary." I find it difficult to believe that the majority of these workers would choose of their own volition to work in this industry if they had the option of equally well paying source of income. Just because something is economic coercion doesn't mean it's not coercion. Just like "consenting" sexual relationships with prepubescent minors aren't actually consenting, since the minor hasn't developed the capacity of sexual consent, neither is the "voluntary" working of sex workers voluntary when it is one of the limited means of getting a living wage.
  - jessaustin 13y ago
    It's possible to acknowledge that many sex workers have challenging situations without denying them agency entirely. If they aren't "prepubescent minors", then they aren't "just like" such minors. In pointing this out, I'm not just playing a philosophical game. Those who wish to assist sex workers, whether in leaving sex work entirely or just being safer or happier in sex work, ought to be practical enough to realize that many sex workers choose sex work over other means of support.
  - MichaelGG 13y ago
    It's not even similar to the sexual exploitation of prepubescent minors -- people have problems with minors working in sweatshops, after all. The rest of your argument applies to just about well-paying job in a poor country. I know software developers making an order of magnitude more than they would at any other job. Some of them don't enjoy dealing with software. It's still a voluntary decision. If I say I would not want to work in telecom because I get paid more for my efforts in that field than others, is that somehow now involuntary?
lambda 13y ago
You say this as if the sex industry is a single organization which does both the cam shows of legal adults and exploitation of children. Would you say that the internet industry is inherently harmful because much of this exploitation of children takes place over the internet? Would you say that the software industry is inherently harmful because some people write malware? You said that "I think the industry is fundamentally different and in its most extreme realizations has been shown to cause severe emotional harm to exploited workers" but I'm not sure how the most extreme realizations of abuse in a particular industry speak to the industry as a whole, unless those are somehow condoned by the majority of the industry or vastly more widespread in a particular industry. There's a lot of the adult entertainment industry that works scrupulously within the law, and provides income for a lot of models. For some reason, a lot of people have a notion that they are being harmed merely because they are involved in sex work, no matter that they are consenting adults and are choosing this work over any of a number of other jobs that they could have. So do you believe that working in the sex industry is inherently harmful in some way? Or do you believe that the industry exploits its workers more than is common in other industries? Or that acceptance of harmful behavior is more widespread in the sex industry? And do you have evidence to back this up? And note, of course, that I'm talking about the legal sex industry; like in the case of any prohibition, such as alcohol prohibition back in the day or drug prohibition today, illegal industries tend to attract more crime, because you're already a criminal merely by participating in the industry. Do you have evidence that shows that the legal sex industry is particularly harmful or more conducive towards tempting people to abusive or illegal behaviors than any other similar industry?
- LukeWalsh 13y ago
  I don't think of it as a single organization, or as an industry that is inherently harmful. There are many adult entertainers who enjoy their work. I do however think that it's something to watch carefully in developing countries in the same way that we consider safe working conditions. I think that perhaps the quantity of exploited workers in the sex industry is not higher, but the depth of exploitation possible can be much greater than that in many other industries.
- girvo 13y ago
  The way I see it, is that sex work has a higher chance of involving harm, but it's not a guarantee. It's inherently risky (contact sex work, I mean) due to STI's and various other reasons; and often those who participate in it as a worker do so for reasons that we should be tackling (be it abuse while young, a lack of other career options, &c) as a society. If the people involved are not suffering or being exploited, then more power to them! In my research though, often those at most risk of harm in society end up there, and that's a bad thing, in my opinion. I live in a country where prostitution is completely legal, and while that doesn't entirely remove all problems, it's certainly helped. Being in a western first world country also helps. it's not a simple topic, and your point is well made; we should think before we rush to judgements and conclusions, especially those based on "Puritan" morals and societies shunning of the industry as a whole.

MichaelGG 13y ago

But that's not really related to cam studios where people voluntarily decide to perform.

DanBC 13y ago
Some people like sex, and they like getting paid for sex work. That's not true for most people involved in sex work. It's not a free choice they've made. They find themselves in that situation to pay for drugs, or alcohol, or to pay off debts, or because they're modern slaves. Camming is the lighter end of sex work, and thus the ratio of willing : unwilling workers is better than for other sex work, but it's still more likely to be harmful than harm free.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > Some people like sex, and they like getting paid for sex work. > That's not true for most people involved in sex work. You know, if you dropped "sex" for most other domains wherein people might work, that'd probably still be true. There's probably a few areas of work where most people work in the domain because they like it, but for most domains of work people work in the domain because they need the money and working in the domain is the best way they feel they have of making the money they need. Socially taboo -- and, even moreso, illegal -- domains of work, naturally, increase the risk of people being stuck in them and being less able to move to other domains of work later, and they also increase the risk of exploitation (because people feel trapped in them, because subject to abuse have less ability to address abuse, and because the social taboo (or illegality) of working in the domain naturally means that people, even if they like the domain, are less likely to choose it as a domain of work if they have other viable options, meaning the people that do end up there are usually the most vulnerable to exploitation in the first place.
- jpatokal 13y ago
  Not liking your job != exploitation. There are plenty of people out there working shit jobs to pay off debts or a support a family, even though if they have a choice they'd be drinking daiquiris on Aruba, but that does not make them "modern slaves".
  - btilly 13y ago
    I read the phrase "modern slaves" as an accurate description for a sadly large number of sex workers worldwide. See http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hookers-in-the-holy-land-an-uncomfortable-history-in-israel/ http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hookers-in-the-holy-land-an-u... for an example of something that qualifies for that description.
  - DanBC 13y ago
    There's a difference between being coerced to have sex with someone that you don't want to have sex with and doing photocopying.
    - Dylan16807 13y ago
      You can make just as much of an inequality in the other direction. There's a difference between chatting with someone you don't know in a skimpy outfit and doing repetitive manual labor in the heat and sun for 12 hours a day. Outside of human trafficking (which I acknowledge as an important problem) it's pretty hard to get coerced into prostitution.
      - btilly 13y ago
        Outside of human trafficking (which I acknowledge as an important problem) it's pretty hard to get coerced into prostitution. No, not hard at all. I had a friend from high school who met a guy at a party. He gave her drugs. Before long, she was addicted. She couldn't afford the habit. He let her get into full withdrawal, then offered her drugs if she'd have sex with his friends. She did. A week later, she had dropped out of law school and was working a street corner. My understanding is that this is a fairly common path into prostitution.
- bdamm 13y ago
  Or is it the other way around... the harmed (abused, psychologically dysfunctional) who find themselves unable to operate within normal societal bounds, start to "get creative" about their work options? No wonder, then, that such folks find themselves hurt by the work or perhaps drawn deeper into the vortex to earn a better income; they were already unable to pursue more typical paths.
- enjo 13y ago
  That's not true for most people involved in sex work Citation? I'm taking particular umbrage with "most".
- girvo 13y ago
  I worked as a software engineer to pay for my heroin addiction (am now clean), and allowed myself to be exploited at some pretty terrible places. I don't really have a point with that post, I just never drew the parallel before. I was very lucky I had skills that are wanted and pay well.
tga_d 13y ago
For varying definitions of "voluntary." I find it difficult to believe that the majority of these workers would choose of their own volition to work in this industry if they had the option of equally well paying source of income. Just because something is economic coercion doesn't mean it's not coercion. Just like "consenting" sexual relationships with prepubescent minors aren't actually consenting, since the minor hasn't developed the capacity of sexual consent, neither is the "voluntary" working of sex workers voluntary when it is one of the limited means of getting a living wage.
- jessaustin 13y ago
  It's possible to acknowledge that many sex workers have challenging situations without denying them agency entirely. If they aren't "prepubescent minors", then they aren't "just like" such minors. In pointing this out, I'm not just playing a philosophical game. Those who wish to assist sex workers, whether in leaving sex work entirely or just being safer or happier in sex work, ought to be practical enough to realize that many sex workers choose sex work over other means of support.
- MichaelGG 13y ago
  It's not even similar to the sexual exploitation of prepubescent minors -- people have problems with minors working in sweatshops, after all. The rest of your argument applies to just about well-paying job in a poor country. I know software developers making an order of magnitude more than they would at any other job. Some of them don't enjoy dealing with software. It's still a voluntary decision. If I say I would not want to work in telecom because I get paid more for my efforts in that field than others, is that somehow now involuntary?

lambda 13y ago

You say this as if the sex industry is a single organization which does both the cam shows of legal adults and exploitation of children. Would you say that the internet industry is inherently harmful because much of this exploitation of children takes place over the internet? Would you say that the software industry is inherently harmful because some people write malware? You said that "I think the industry is fundamentally different and in its most extreme realizations has been shown to cause severe emotional harm to exploited workers" but I'm not sure how the most extreme realizations of abuse in a particular industry speak to the industry as a whole, unless those are somehow condoned by the majority of the industry or vastly more widespread in a particular industry. There's a lot of the adult entertainment industry that works scrupulously within the law, and provides income for a lot of models. For some reason, a lot of people have a notion that they are being harmed merely because they are involved in sex work, no matter that they are consenting adults and are choosing this work over any of a number of other jobs that they could have. So do you believe that working in the sex industry is inherently harmful in some way? Or do you believe that the industry exploits its workers more than is common in other industries? Or that acceptance of harmful behavior is more widespread in the sex industry? And do you have evidence to back this up? And note, of course, that I'm talking about the legal sex industry; like in the case of any prohibition, such as alcohol prohibition back in the day or drug prohibition today, illegal industries tend to attract more crime, because you're already a criminal merely by participating in the industry. Do you have evidence that shows that the legal sex industry is particularly harmful or more conducive towards tempting people to abusive or illegal behaviors than any other similar industry?

LukeWalsh 13y ago
I don't think of it as a single organization, or as an industry that is inherently harmful. There are many adult entertainers who enjoy their work. I do however think that it's something to watch carefully in developing countries in the same way that we consider safe working conditions. I think that perhaps the quantity of exploited workers in the sex industry is not higher, but the depth of exploitation possible can be much greater than that in many other industries.
girvo 13y ago
The way I see it, is that sex work has a higher chance of involving harm, but it's not a guarantee. It's inherently risky (contact sex work, I mean) due to STI's and various other reasons; and often those who participate in it as a worker do so for reasons that we should be tackling (be it abuse while young, a lack of other career options, &c) as a society. If the people involved are not suffering or being exploited, then more power to them! In my research though, often those at most risk of harm in society end up there, and that's a bad thing, in my opinion. I live in a country where prostitution is completely legal, and while that doesn't entirely remove all problems, it's certainly helped. Being in a western first world country also helps. it's not a simple topic, and your point is well made; we should think before we rush to judgements and conclusions, especially those based on "Puritan" morals and societies shunning of the industry as a whole.