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> while Isaac is a Joyent employee, Ben is not—and if he had been, he wouldn't be as of this morning: to reject a pull request that eliminates a gendered pronou

> while Isaac is a Joyent employee, Ben is not—and if he had been, he wouldn't be as of this morning: to reject a pull request that eliminates a gendered pronoun on the principle that pronouns should in fact be gendered would constitute a fireable offense for me and for Joyent. Am I the only one who thinks this is crazy? And how do you square it with calling someone an asshole in the next paragraph? That passes as professionalism and empathy at Joyent?

mindcrime 13y ago
Am I the only one who thinks this is crazy? No. I think it's fairly absurd as well, FWIW.
edwardy20 13y ago
I completely agree with you. And more to the point: does this hypersensitivity over gender issues ameliorate the problem, or only makes it worse?
gum_ina_package 13y ago
Honestly the author makes himself look not only immature and unprofessional, but also just as absurd as those they're criticizing.
LeafStorm 13y ago
> On the one hand, it seems ridiculous (absurd, perhaps) to fire someone over a pronoun -- but to characterize it that way would be a gross oversimplification: it's not the use of the gendered pronoun that's at issue (that's just sloppy), but rather the insistence that pronouns should in fact be gendered. To me, that insistence can only come from one place: that gender—specifically, masculinity—is inextricably linked to software, and that's not an attitude that Joyent tolerates. They're not opposing the use of the word "he," they're opposing him saying "no, go away, I don't see any reason someone could take offense" when the issue was pointed out instead of "thanks for the patch."
- dlitz 13y ago
  ... and then reverting the change when another committer landed it.
cdcarter 13y ago
It's crazy. The whole event reads to me like Ben was having a bad day and rejected a minimal patch, and then it exploded and he was grumpy. I imagine that on a normal day, a good F/OSS leader would accept patches that improve or make the codebase more consistent, even if they are fairly minimal. That's how code grows. I'm giving Ben the benefit of the doubt that he was in a mood, which is why he behaved as a bad project leader. If this became a regular occurrence, then there's a problem. Ben's behavior isn't about the gendered pronouns. I think it's great that the project is committing to using appropriate language. But I don't think this is what made this incident occur. EDIT: removed some poorly chosen words that didn't reflect the point of my comment.
- escaped_hn 13y ago
  I too am giving Ben the benefit of the doubt here. If the OP of the patch had gone through and consistently changed all He|She -> Them|They im sure Ben would have merged it in as a consistent change.
  - msmillie 13y ago
    > If the OP of the patch had gone through and consistently changed all He|She -> Them|They If they missed any gendered pronouns in the now-landed PR, surely they would be discoverable in the current source: - https://github.com/joyent/libuv/search?q=him&type=Code - https://github.com/joyent/libuv/search?q=he&type=Code - https://github.com/joyent/libuv/search?q=his&type=Code - https://github.com/joyent/libuv/search?q=she&type=Code - https://github.com/joyent/libuv/search?q=her&type=Code - https://github.com/joyent/libuv/search?q=hers&type=Code To a reasonable approximation, it turns out the author of PR did consistently change gendered language in the project, there just wasn't very much of it to begin with. That wasn't my assumption either (I thought there'd be more such language somewhere), and the biases that created that assumption are surely an interesting "this is how these problems happen" sort of side topic. Anyway, definitely a lesson in where we choose to direct the benefit of the doubt. In this case, the author of the PR was the one who deserved it, but wasn't the one who received it. (edit - link formatting)
mattdw 13y ago
As he expands on it later, it was a deliberate choice of gendered pronoun given (a) no particular need for it and (b) a perfectly acceptable alternative being provided. Additional context is that Ben not only rejected the PR, but then reverted it after another dev accepted and merged it.
x0x0 13y ago
What Ben did seems to be a message to women that they don't belong and aren't welcome. Whether you like it or not, that is how many women (and men as well) interpret the use of gendered pronouns. What joyent did is say Ben is an asshole. They aren't the same thing. Part of creating an inclusionary companies, industries, and associations is removing the default assumption that engineers are male, and language is a critical way that presumption is conveyed.
grannyg00se 13y ago
"to reject a pull request that eliminates a gendered pronoun on the principle that pronouns should in fact be gendered would constitute a fireable offense " That's great. But that's not what Ben said. He said he rejected it for being too trivial for a pull request.
- 21echoes 13y ago
  and then went in and attempted to revert the commit
  - sitkack 13y ago
    I teach classes for assholes to integrate with the rest of society and this a perfect case study in what not to do. Guy shoulda just let it blow over. Esp when project lead accepts the patch, he doesn't even have a canine level of sociability. Woof.
    - makomk 13y ago
      > Guy shoulda just let it blow over. Esp when project lead accepts the patch, he doesn't even have a canine level of sociability. Woof. You're literally dehumanizing someone based on misleading information, and he's the one who's an asshole? Wow.
      - hacker789 13y ago
        That dehumanizing attitude is extremely common in first-world "social justice warrior" circles. They consciously and deliberately use shaming and bullying tactics to intimidate others into silence. They acknowledge this constantly, especially on Twitter when their bullying victims ask why the "social justice warriors" are being so cruel. Their answers are typically something like, "We need everyone to know that being a fucking asshole like you will mean everyone will mock and hate you." These activists are quite literally bullies. It's extremely important that we continue to stand up to them.
  - knowitall 13y ago
na85 13y ago
It's not so crazy if you put down your pitchfork for a sec. 1) Every employee is an ambassador of your company's brand, and Tech already has a sexism problem to begin with. 2) It's not about the pronoun so much as it's about Ben re-rejecting a patch that Isaac, the project lead, had already accepted, solely on the grounds of pronoun genders. #2 really has no other explanation than sexism; and when his behaviour is conducted in public on the internet, where the "Joyent employs bigots" meme has potential to go viral, that'd be cause for concern for any employer. Now, I like to think that had Ben been a Joyent employee the author of this pieces would have had a standard "we have concerns with your conduct" meeting with Ben before reaching for the banhammer but we don't really have any way of knowing.
- theorique 13y ago
  #2 has the alternative explanation of passive aggressive frustration, in addition to sexism. Sort of an irritable "you aren't going to tell me what to do" attitude. Not sure if that is better or worse than sexism, but it is a definite possibility.
  - na85 13y ago
    Again, something you wouldn't want in a potential employee.
  - rsynnott 13y ago
    That also sounds like a pretty undesirable attribute in an employee, especially one who is hypothetically in a prominent position in a major open source project.
- sontek 13y ago
  I think #2 happened because Alex (the creator of the PR) was being hostile in his comments. I doubt Ben would have closed this PR if Alex would have approached the subject with more poise and kindness. Not everyone is familiar with the battle of gender inequality in tech and the fact that some people find gendered pronouns exclusionary. This was a perfect time to help the cause and educate developers, but instead Alex chose to be hostile because they didn't understand. This is the comment I believe hurt everything the PR was trying to do: https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29537035 https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29537... We need to remember that the Internet is a global community and not everyone we deal with has english as a first language, Ben being from The Netherlands most likely speaks dutch first which has its own gender language issues: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_in_Dutch_grammar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_in_Dutch_grammar

mindcrime 13y ago

Am I the only one who thinks this is crazy? No. I think it's fairly absurd as well, FWIW.

edwardy20 13y ago

I completely agree with you. And more to the point: does this hypersensitivity over gender issues ameliorate the problem, or only makes it worse?

gum_ina_package 13y ago

Honestly the author makes himself look not only immature and unprofessional, but also just as absurd as those they're criticizing.

LeafStorm 13y ago

> On the one hand, it seems ridiculous (absurd, perhaps) to fire someone over a pronoun -- but to characterize it that way would be a gross oversimplification: it's not the use of the gendered pronoun that's at issue (that's just sloppy), but rather the insistence that pronouns should in fact be gendered. To me, that insistence can only come from one place: that gender—specifically, masculinity—is inextricably linked to software, and that's not an attitude that Joyent tolerates. They're not opposing the use of the word "he," they're opposing him saying "no, go away, I don't see any reason someone could take offense" when the issue was pointed out instead of "thanks for the patch."

dlitz 13y ago
... and then reverting the change when another committer landed it.

cdcarter 13y ago

It's crazy. The whole event reads to me like Ben was having a bad day and rejected a minimal patch, and then it exploded and he was grumpy. I imagine that on a normal day, a good F/OSS leader would accept patches that improve or make the codebase more consistent, even if they are fairly minimal. That's how code grows. I'm giving Ben the benefit of the doubt that he was in a mood, which is why he behaved as a bad project leader. If this became a regular occurrence, then there's a problem. Ben's behavior isn't about the gendered pronouns. I think it's great that the project is committing to using appropriate language. But I don't think this is what made this incident occur. EDIT: removed some poorly chosen words that didn't reflect the point of my comment.

escaped_hn 13y ago
I too am giving Ben the benefit of the doubt here. If the OP of the patch had gone through and consistently changed all He|She -> Them|They im sure Ben would have merged it in as a consistent change.
- msmillie 13y ago
  > If the OP of the patch had gone through and consistently changed all He|She -> Them|They If they missed any gendered pronouns in the now-landed PR, surely they would be discoverable in the current source: - https://github.com/joyent/libuv/search?q=him&type=Code - https://github.com/joyent/libuv/search?q=he&type=Code - https://github.com/joyent/libuv/search?q=his&type=Code - https://github.com/joyent/libuv/search?q=she&type=Code - https://github.com/joyent/libuv/search?q=her&type=Code - https://github.com/joyent/libuv/search?q=hers&type=Code To a reasonable approximation, it turns out the author of PR did consistently change gendered language in the project, there just wasn't very much of it to begin with. That wasn't my assumption either (I thought there'd be more such language somewhere), and the biases that created that assumption are surely an interesting "this is how these problems happen" sort of side topic. Anyway, definitely a lesson in where we choose to direct the benefit of the doubt. In this case, the author of the PR was the one who deserved it, but wasn't the one who received it. (edit - link formatting)

mattdw 13y ago

As he expands on it later, it was a deliberate choice of gendered pronoun given (a) no particular need for it and (b) a perfectly acceptable alternative being provided. Additional context is that Ben not only rejected the PR, but then reverted it after another dev accepted and merged it.

x0x0 13y ago

What Ben did seems to be a message to women that they don't belong and aren't welcome. Whether you like it or not, that is how many women (and men as well) interpret the use of gendered pronouns. What joyent did is say Ben is an asshole. They aren't the same thing. Part of creating an inclusionary companies, industries, and associations is removing the default assumption that engineers are male, and language is a critical way that presumption is conveyed.

grannyg00se 13y ago

"to reject a pull request that eliminates a gendered pronoun on the principle that pronouns should in fact be gendered would constitute a fireable offense " That's great. But that's not what Ben said. He said he rejected it for being too trivial for a pull request.

21echoes 13y ago
and then went in and attempted to revert the commit
- sitkack 13y ago
  I teach classes for assholes to integrate with the rest of society and this a perfect case study in what not to do. Guy shoulda just let it blow over. Esp when project lead accepts the patch, he doesn't even have a canine level of sociability. Woof.
  - makomk 13y ago
    > Guy shoulda just let it blow over. Esp when project lead accepts the patch, he doesn't even have a canine level of sociability. Woof. You're literally dehumanizing someone based on misleading information, and he's the one who's an asshole? Wow.
    - hacker789 13y ago
      That dehumanizing attitude is extremely common in first-world "social justice warrior" circles. They consciously and deliberately use shaming and bullying tactics to intimidate others into silence. They acknowledge this constantly, especially on Twitter when their bullying victims ask why the "social justice warriors" are being so cruel. Their answers are typically something like, "We need everyone to know that being a fucking asshole like you will mean everyone will mock and hate you." These activists are quite literally bullies. It's extremely important that we continue to stand up to them.
- knowitall 13y ago

na85 13y ago

It's not so crazy if you put down your pitchfork for a sec. 1) Every employee is an ambassador of your company's brand, and Tech already has a sexism problem to begin with. 2) It's not about the pronoun so much as it's about Ben re-rejecting a patch that Isaac, the project lead, had already accepted, solely on the grounds of pronoun genders. #2 really has no other explanation than sexism; and when his behaviour is conducted in public on the internet, where the "Joyent employs bigots" meme has potential to go viral, that'd be cause for concern for any employer. Now, I like to think that had Ben been a Joyent employee the author of this pieces would have had a standard "we have concerns with your conduct" meeting with Ben before reaching for the banhammer but we don't really have any way of knowing.

theorique 13y ago
#2 has the alternative explanation of passive aggressive frustration, in addition to sexism. Sort of an irritable "you aren't going to tell me what to do" attitude. Not sure if that is better or worse than sexism, but it is a definite possibility.
- na85 13y ago
  Again, something you wouldn't want in a potential employee.
- rsynnott 13y ago
  That also sounds like a pretty undesirable attribute in an employee, especially one who is hypothetically in a prominent position in a major open source project.
sontek 13y ago
I think #2 happened because Alex (the creator of the PR) was being hostile in his comments. I doubt Ben would have closed this PR if Alex would have approached the subject with more poise and kindness. Not everyone is familiar with the battle of gender inequality in tech and the fact that some people find gendered pronouns exclusionary. This was a perfect time to help the cause and educate developers, but instead Alex chose to be hostile because they didn't understand. This is the comment I believe hurt everything the PR was trying to do: https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29537035 https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29537... We need to remember that the Internet is a global community and not everyone we deal with has english as a first language, Ben being from The Netherlands most likely speaks dutch first which has its own gender language issues: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_in_Dutch_grammar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_in_Dutch_grammar