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I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made
- csmuk 13y agoAnd this is typically the end game for capitalism and globalisation. Can't see it changing without everyone working together and by nature that isn't going to happen if capitalism is in place.
- LeeHunter 13y agoTo misquote Churchill "Capitalism is the worst possible system, except for all the rest". The problem here is more a lack of strong mechanisms to set and enforce standards along with a host of deeply rooted cultural norms (especially the dowry system) that are easily exploited.
- moo 13y agoBecause the fat imperialist says capitalism is the best we have to keep it for all time until our star goes supernova? Our rooted first world lifestyle is the strong mechanism enabling these sweat shops.
- csmuk 13y agoSpot on. Churchill was distinctly batshit as well so you can't really actually cite him as a single reliable source.
- neuralk 13y ago>Churchill was distinctly batshit That's simply balderdash. Churchill was not only a brilliant politician, but an extremely witty and accomplished writer, thinker, and artist. He even received the Nobel prize ... for literature[1]. If you'd like to explain why you think he is "batshit" I'd love to hear it. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill
- VMG 13y agoI agree. A better argument is that free trade based on voluntary transactions is the only just and moral system of allocating resources, in theory and in practice.
- nzp 13y agoWithout further qualifications, I too agree completely. However, to me it's both sad and funny how twisted the meaning of "free" and "voluntary" become when used to defend (liberal) capitalism. This is a general remark, it's not meant as an attack of how you use these words (I wouldn't really know).
- csmuk 13y agoYes because more laws and control really help...
- praxeologist 13y agoThe ability to actually enforce laws and protect girls against fraud (and rape or whatever else) is what I see as the main problem here.
- csmuk 13y agoI'd say a better solution is to encourage people not to be 100% self- interested (sorry I'm a rampant Marxist). They have laws but corruption is rife.
- praxeologist 13y agoWhat would it even mean to not be 100% self interested? Are people in India never charitable or selfless? No, of course that is not true. When someone acts charitably it is still self interested insofar as the charitable act is taken up in order to meet the end sought after. What you said sounds nice, but I don't see how you really do it. Yes, it is true that India has a culture of corruption and bribery. I wonder if part of these girls' wages are taken for the housing or "company store" type things. There were some stories recently about workers in Dubai who are just lied to about the level of pay and then held hostage with visa or passport paperwork. If it is that type of case here, then it is fraud and the exploitation is due to the faulty legal system, lack of enforcement, culture of misogyny, etc. I don't agree at all with the idea that wage labor by itself is exploitative. Basically the error with Marxist exploitation theory is that it ignores the concept of time preference. Wage laborers with a higher time preference prefer present goods in the form of wages to the process of saving and deferring some of the present enjoyment and then taking up their own entrepreneurial venture. Of course, the state by erecting barriers to entry and other distortions exacerbate the problem.
- nzp 13y agoThat (mis)quote of Churchill doesn't really mean anything, it's a shallow apology of capitalism, just a catchy formula that superficially seems to make sense if you don't care to think about the possibilities. If you suspend thinking it works on an emotional level because it suggests that yes, the people in power are aware of capitalism's shortcomings, they feel the pain but, alas, there's nothing they could do, so stop complaining you ungrateful somebody... Churchill and the likes are not exactly neutral observers with no interest in preserving the status quo by any means possible, starting with intellectual dishonesty.
- gordaco 13y agoThat misquote reminds me so much of Stroustrup's C++ (mis?)quote, and the cynical man inside me tells me that it's just that everything getting widespread use shows its dark side. Sometimes that dark side is more conspicuous and/or shows eariler, and sometimes it has more serious consequences, though. Btw, I am much more fond of C++ than capitalism, which, I guess, puts me inside a tiny minority here on HN :). About your second line, I think that the biggest problem about capitalism and developing/underdeveloped countries is that capitalism doesn't break the existing power structures, and, worse, it may reinforce them. There, capitalism is (even) less of a sea of oportunities and more of a new source of oppression mechanisms. The vicious circle associated with poverty isn't any good for people from the lower strata.
- walshemj 13y agoAnd an acceptance of petty corruption and violence a coworker who's of Indian descent commented that his family had had had "several" properties expropriated by "gangsters"
- swombat 13y agoThe fairly standard solution that the West developed to these specific problems of capitalism is unions. Based on this article, what seems to be needed is unionisation. Of course, history shows that this is not an easy path. But history also shows that this path works, eventually.
- realo 13y agoThe problem in India does not have its root cause in Capitalism. It seems to me that what is required here is a deep change of Indian society. Women seem to compete for men with money, which is absurd. Moreover, there is this "caste" thing which, frankly, sounds like feudalism from 1000 years ago. In most of the western world, adolescent males compete for women with their charm, looks, etc... and also the other way around. Flirting is cool. No caste system. How do you change an ancient country's attitude towards women? I don't think you can. Traditions can be much more powerful than laws. Capitalism, in India, is simply one more tool used by the higher castes in order to give strength to some deeply rooted traditions which are totally disconnected from the 21st century Planet Earth.
- marvin 13y agoJust thought I would point out that gender-related socioeconomic phenomena usually have a more complex explanation than "it's absurd". This is also true in the West, with all of our weird dating customs. But it's harder to see the absurdities you are taught from birth. For example, why is it traditionally (and most commonly even today) the guy's responsibility to take the initiative in the courtship process? This article provides a stark alternative which is a very efficient counter-example to the evo-psych explanations a lot of people come up with. I'm not advocating cultural relativism; the reality described in this article sounds really shitty, but it is usually instructive to go deeper and ask why things are this way among poor people in India. With sexual attraction being one of the most powerful drives and varying socioeconomic conditions in the world, it stands to reason that different places will have wildly differing customs. These change over generations, as the conditions that formed them change. For instance, an undersupply of men in the wake of a deadly war could be one force which vastly increases the sexual market value of men, and causes customs like the ones described in this article. Look at China if you want to see a third way this can play out, where the roles are reversed.
- Theriac25 13y ago> this is typically the end game for capitalism and globalisation Say what?
- alcari 13y ago> just a quarter of the $105 a month she was promised, about $0.84 a day. It really bugs me when reporters use inconsistent units to exaggerate a point. Yes, the pay difference is horrible, but it sounds almost as bad when you say $25.20 per month, and that is a less misleading way to describe it.
- kmfrk 13y agoNumbers-based journalism still has a way to go, yes. I wonder why it isn't given more focus.
- corin_ 13y agoI read that differently to you - the words "a quarter of $105" instantly tells me $25.20 because it's such an easy calculation, whereas telling me an extra stat like what that is per day is something I hadn't already worked out myself.
- qwerta 13y agoMaybe she is payed daily, rather than by month. Monthly paid usually includes some free holiday, so she could loose money on this as well.
- kmfrk 13y agoHN users should be wary of cheap clothing the same way they are of free online services. They cut those costs somewhere.
- terhechte 13y agoI always find it amusing if people claim (just an example) "I would never buy Apple/Nike/++, they employ child workers, it is awful" and then they go to the supermarket, buy the cheapest meat/vodka/sugar/coffee they can find, or they buy a cheap $99 tablet/smartphone/TV from india/china/malaysia, or they buy $3.99 t-shirts/pants/shoes from throwaway stores. As if somehow these products can be produced at such low prices without affecting quality and wages of the workers behind it.
- iaskwhy 13y agoOne thing to remember is that you must start somewhere. Overall, it's way better than not doing anything.
- kmfrk 13y agoIndeed. You can't send a message to noname brands in the same way. I think companies like Abercrombie & Fitch are feeling the hurt as a result of this. I'm sure there are ways of making a point to companies on both the long and short tail of fashion/clothing, though.
- rebel 13y agoI don't see how. Whether you buy it from Nike or (insert lesser known shoe company with same policy), there's really no difference.
- iaskwhy 13y agoCan't say I have an example but let's hope there's at least one company who cares about that. Some industries actually changed to accomodate for those that care. A good example: food companies. At least in Europe it's quite easy to buy from companies that care about the environment, animals, lack of chemicals, etc. Eventually this kind of thinking will expand to other industries. Update: I tried to search for a couple of minutes for more responsible brands, apparently New Balance makes some of their shoes in the US: http://www.zappos.com/search/made+in+usa/filter/productTypeFacet/%22Shoes%22/orig/made+in+usa?zfcTest=sis%3A0#!/made-in-usa-men-sneakers-athletic-shoes/CK_XARC81wHAAQLiAgMBGAI.zso?t=made+in+usa http://www.zappos.com/search/made+in+usa/filter/productTypeF...
- ilaksh 13y agoThe thing that people don't realize is that exploitation is the foundational structure of capitalism, and 'civilized' wage work is only removed from the examples in this story by a matter of degrees. The current capitalistic structure is only a moderate change from the old-fashioned slavery it came from directly. We clearly need to apply science and technology directly to human needs rather than relying entirely on outdated systems like money that primarily enforce hierarchies. In previous eras where the only means to an end was raw human labor, perhaps this type of system made sense. In our contemporary society with our technological capability it is absurd. Too bad that people can only see that when it involves the most extreme cases.
- _s 13y agoSame "capitalist" problem with using technology too; for example, a textile weaving machine requires an upfront cost and then it has maintenance, depreciation, repairs, higher electricity bills and so forth - some one somewhere somehow worked out it's still cheaper to just employ more people and still generate a better return short and long term vs implementing modern tech.
- VMG 13y agoCapitalism is the only system that has a proven track record of bringing people out of poverty. Many industrial nations had a garment industry phase and graduated from it. We have had experiments with other systems than Capitalsm, and some of them are still running. Korea is split in North and South, the southern part is capitalist, was in garment manufacturing and now has an exceptional level of wealth, while the northern part is communist and has become one big concentration camp. I hope you won't bother pulling a No True Scotsman here, because the list goes on.
- csmuk 13y ago> Capitalism is the only system that has a proven track record of bringing people out of poverty. Citation please. It's become apparent to me that it does that until the workforce hits equilibrium at which point it divides people slowly into two classes, the lower of which is purely exploited by the upper. NK just skipped the first bit.
- ibsathish 13y agoAlmost 90% of the sports jerseys are produced from Southern part of India where the situations and characters mentioned in the article are still alive. Multinational garment companies like Adidas, Nike, Puma etc. should have stricter vigilance towards exploitation of employees. Young girls are prone towards exploitation and they are willing to undergo this as they are desperate for money. And, blame parents too!
- blumkvist 13y agoIf you think Addidas, Nike, Puma etc. don't already know exactly what is happening in this factories, and even further - outsorce their production to EXACTLY those unethical factories, you my friend, are just deceiving yourself.
- ghshephard 13y agoI can't help but read this and wonder whether "Aruna" actually exists, and, if she does, whether all the details about her are as described. That's the legacy that Mike Daisey has left us with.
- moocowduckquack 13y agoI get the parallel, but that problem has always existed in reporting long before Mike Daisey and him writing his thing doesn't say anything about the ethics of this particular writer.
- pessimizer 13y agoWith a distrust of stories about labor exploitation? That's the wrong message to take from someone lying to you. Be less credulous about people's stories in general maybe, but restricting it to stories about labor is as reasonable as being racist because a black person bullied you in high school.
- ghshephard 13y agoNot really the same thing - It's not that I don't trust monologuests (sp?) as a class of people, and, indeed, the writer of this article, Dana Liebelson is a reporter in Mother Jones' Washington bureau. It's more along the lines of living your entire life without locking your doors, and then, one day getting burgled, and thereafter making a point to lock your doors when you leave. Or getting mugged at night, and not walking down that dark street anymore. Perhaps it's a good thing that I don't just automatically take things at face value; I'll admit to having listened with rapt attention to Mike Daisey's performance on NPR - he's really quite talented - maybe there was a positive takeway, Mike Daisey was like a vaccine, I'm now more resistant to false reporting.
- joezydeco 13y agoNPR's "Planet Money" podcast team decided to sell t-shirts and did a similar project where they researched and followed the production process from start to finish. Some of the interviews have been pretty interesting: http://www.npr.org/templates/archives/archive.php?thingId=190719989 http://www.npr.org/templates/archives/archive.php?thingId=19... The NPR staff wound up working with Jockey to have the shirt made and that obviously opened up a lot of doors to the production facilities and interviews with factory workers, etc. The Mother Jones article reminded me, I guess, that Jockey's hand in the NPR access had a non-trvial amount of P/R influence in the project.
- nano_o 13y agoHow would you find clothes that have not been manufactured by slaves ? In Switzerland I can buy from Switcher (switcher.ch), which markets clothes "made with respect", and I just found out about the Fair Wear Foundation, which has a short list of member brands (www.fairwear.org). As pointed out in this thread, just buying more expensive clothes may not make a difference.
- Nursie 13y agoA friend of mine has a (very small so far) ethical underwear company called Who Made Your Pants (http://www.whomadeyourpants.co.uk/ http://www.whomadeyourpants.co.uk/) She started it because she realised that in the UK marketplace it was very hard to buy underwear that didn't come from sweat-shops, even if you were prepared to spend a bit (or a lot) more. So these are made here in the UK, by disadvantaged women who get to learn a skill and take home some pay.
- tokenadult 13y agoCome on, ladies and gentlemen, the fine submitted article is about stark conditions in India, where "Western capitalism" was specifically rejected, and socialism embraced, as an economic model after independence in 1947. The comparison with Taiwan (where I have lived, twice) is instructive. Taiwan too, under the China Nationalist Party (KMT) dictatorship, had a period of governance that accepted Sun Yat-sen thought and dabbled with a lot of socialism. (That the field of Taiwan's flag, formally the flag of the Republic of China, is red is no accident. The KMT was very much part of a worldwide socialist movement when it was founded.) Meanwhile, as the mainland fell to the Commmunist Party of China and then Stalin's invasion of South Korea from the north began, the United States felt constrained to prop up Taiwan, and one way it did so was by promoting land reform in Taiwan and local free and fair elections. Gradually, Taiwan became more "capitalist," and it went from stark poverty (being poorer in my wife's birth year than some newly independent countries in Africa) to prosperity. Taiwan hasn't had a garment industry like that described in the submitted article for a long, long time. Essentially everyone who gets online to discuss issues on Hacker News probably uses an Internet device with multiple components made in Taiwan and traded in international trade. Trade is the foundation of capitalism, not exploitation. (The references for this, of course, are the writings of Adam Smith and David Ricardo.) India (and also much of South America) specifically rejected this wisdom during much of my lifetime, and now those countries have to play catch-up. They still have time. They won't have stark poverty forever if they learn from the examples of other countries, just as Taiwan did.
- oskarth 13y agoThank you for being a voice of reason and empiricism in this thread. Seems like too many people took a class in marxist sociology and all of a sudden see the whole world in terms of The Capitalists and The Exploited Class. EDIT: Taking a class in economics and thinking everything has a monetary value attached to it, or that homo economicus actually exists would obviously be just as bad.
- moocowduckquack 13y agoPersonally I don't agree with Marx a lot (I'm more of a Groucho Marxist and am therefore not allowed to join any club that would have me as a member), but I do have Marxist family members and know a fair amount of what it is and what it is not. India is definitely not an example of a Marxist state. edit - Folk keep framing stuff in the economic dogma-battles of the superpowers in the 19th and 20th century, but to me the problem is 14th century economics combined with 21st century logistics. Retaining a caste system in a world of global networks can give you a fucking big pyramid and systemise abuse on an unprecedented scale with the money that flows in from those outside the structure.
- amerika_blog 13y agoOh. Mother Jones. Well, that's about on the level of the National Enquirer for me, so I'll pass.
- notdrunkatall 13y agoUgh, motherjones, that perpetual bastion of leftist bullshit! Why is this tripe being upvoted here on HN? You might as well have posted something directly from Rush Limbaugh's blog (or website, or whatever he has). It's crap.