12 ms·
US blogger fined 8,000 Euros by France for criticizing Société Générale
- vernie 13y agoI hereby fine Société Générale for overuse of acute accents.
- gnu8 13y agoI hereby fine Société Générale 8,000 bitcoins for violating the American constitution (never mind jurisdiction since they don't care for it either), notice duly served by posting this comment in a public forum and witnessed by whoever happens to read this.
- chadwickthebold 13y agoSubmitted to the Court of Public Opinion
- TallGuyShort 13y agoHereby notarized by a third-party.
- ebbv 13y agoWhy stop there? I fine them all of France. I now own France and they need to get off my lawn.
- witek 13y agoSubsequent letters will be in Swahili and SG will be required to respond in Swahili.
- aktiur 13y agoAddenda will be in Malayalam though.
- jffry 13y agoSubsequent letters will be in Navajo, and the recipient will be required to respond in Navajo
- protomyth 13y agoYou can practice your Navajo by watching Star Wars in Navajo. Darth Vader sounds particularly scary. http://www.npr.org/2013/06/20/193496493/translated-into-navajo-star-wars-will-be http://www.npr.org/2013/06/20/193496493/translated-into-nava...
- Tloewald 13y agoYeah the United States never does anything outside its jurisdiction that anyone else finds annoying. That said, the level of institutionalized corruption in France is pretty outrageous. If I recall correctly, the president of France receives a truck load of cash every year which can be used with zero accountability (and that's legal). Of course the French (and pretty much any democratic country) can look at our electoral system and laugh.
- cobrausn 13y agoYeah the United States never does anything outside its jurisdiction that anyone else finds annoying. Except we aren't talking about the US right now, we are talking about one particularly boneheaded action by France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
- fizz_and_buzz 13y agoWell to be fair, the parent comment brought up the US not the one you are quoting.
- cobrausn 13y agoHe only brought it up to show the absurdity of it - the poster is probably from the US. Any other nation's constitution / body of laws could have been used as the example.
- Tloewald 13y agoThis is what appears to me to be an American (or USian to be more precise) complaining about France fining a US Blogger, so a direct comparison of the US to France is highly apropos.
- PhasmaFelis 13y agoExcept that Mike Shedlock is not personally America and has no control of the actions of the American government. Also, there's only one nation in the world called "America," so it's plenty precise. The continents are "North America" and "South America," or jointly "the Americas." Posturing aside, I don't believe that a reasonable person is likely to confuse them.
- hoers 13y agoThe payment is to be aligned within the next python update at the following address: 1gxud5uquSr1aE9uknj2W6K2WLDwPHEQu
- rdtsc 13y agoThat's cute. You need one thing -- someone to enforce that for you. A court they would listen to, an army, your buddy Louie with a baseball bat, ready to break their CEO's knees. Societe Generale is in a better standing than you here. Some courts in some countries (France) using their enforcement agencies will most likely do their bidding for them. In other words I can fine everyone millions of dollars. Look I fined you and everyone here $1B. Guess what chance I have of collecting that? Disregard other things, deep down that is what it boils down to.
- HeXetic 13y agoI don't understand how this court system can be so silly as to fail to recognize that it has no jurisdiction over someone. Isn't the question of jurisdiction one of the first steps in any court case?
- hobzy 13y agoErm, ask the US?
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- yread 13y agoUS doesn't need courts to deal out the punishments
- alan_cx 13y agoYeah, was wondering that myself. Quite ironic that small fact being utterly missed in all this. Also like the anti French language ignorance. The letter came in French and the recipient couldn't be arsed to spend a few mins on google translate, and some how we are supposed to have some sympathy. On top of that, he also says that he knew there was a legal thing happening, so subsequent letters in French should have got his attention. And then he has the sheer cheek to talk about insane French law. Hello USA? The go to place for mad law? This whole thing to me reeks of both ignorance and arrogance. Not saying the scenario is great, but come on HN. Balance? Or are we still in Freedom Fries mode?
- darkarmani 13y ago> And then he has the sheer cheek to talk about insane French law. Hello USA? The go to place for mad law? The US doesn't have insane libel law. Obviously France and the UK do. You can get sued for make factual statements and expect to lose in those countries. It doesn't get any crazier than that.
- nknighthb 13y ago
- witek 13y agoHilarious. It baffles me how this country continues to operate given the massive public spending/benefits, delightful reforms (e.g. proposed 80% tax rate for high-earners) and pretty xenophobic view on immigration. ALL of my (highly-skilled) French friends do not plan to return in the foreseeable future.
- DenisM 13y ago>my (highly-skilled) French friends do not plan to return in the foreseeable future Selection bias alert! You're more likely to meet people who swore to never return than those don't mind returning.
- epsylon 13y agoNot to mention the fact that software engineering salaries are notoriously low in France compared to the US. Thus most people who have emigrated have strong financial incentives to stay there. (Well, at least until they have cancer and crappy insurance or they have to send their kids to college)
- jstalin 13y agoPrinted money is a helluva drug.
- Symmetry 13y agoFrance is part of the Euro, and it's pretty much the Germans who decide when new Euros get printed. They haven't proven sympathetic to the idea of printing many recently.
- rguillebert 13y agoSince when does french-bashing need to be factually correct ?
- jstalin 13y ago
- themodelplumber 13y agoThis coverage is going to get him more than 8KE worth of blog visitors. Particularly the "hey, this little blogger was sharp enough to uncover some real weird stuff on the part of SG" angle. Blog readers eat that up.
- RyJones 13y agoWhile Mish isn't as well known as Drudge, he isn't a little blogger. Just because he doesn't write about growth hacking his angular startup into YC doesn't mean he has no reach.
- wpietri 13y agoI suggest you add "growth hacking my angular startup into YC" into your HN bio. That's beautiful.
- themodelplumber 13y agoBy "little blogger" I don't mean to compare him to other bloggers. I meant that he's little in comparison to French banks.
- csmuk 13y agoUK banks are just as bad. A company I worked for previously gave a bank's investment products a high risk rating because of poor investments/compliance and they sent all sorts of nasty shit out. Every bank has a "send people nasty shit" department by the looks. The answer is as always: "fuck off".
- tombrossman 13y agoI think the better answer is to not reply at all or ever acknowledge receipt of said 'nasty shit'. Make every step a challenge for the opponent, it's a war of attrition. And never get mad at the lawyer, s/he usually bills by the hour and they are delighted to send out useless letters all day long. Informing the bank that this is a waste of time is bad for job security.
- csmuk 13y agoBit hard when they are recorded deliveries. Telling banks and other financial institutions to fuck off was just an operating cost for the company in question. It was in the budget. That's how I learned how the finance system worked in the UK. Assholes lobbing grenades at each other whilst the rest of the companies just get on with it.
- Joeri 13y agoIt's perfectly fine to get mad at the lawyer for abusing their skill doing such people-hostile work. They can choose a more honorable line of lawyering.
- logfromblammo 13y ago...such as ambulance-chasing.
- nealabq 13y ago...or running for political office.
- 13y ago
- camus2 13y agoNot surprising, there is no free speech in France. Especially when it comes to crooked banks or politicians. France is a strange country that likes to give lessons about democracy to the rest of the world, but when you look at things closer, France is closer to a monarchy than a democracy. Everything is so centralised that information usually comes from an single source of truth, that journalist dont even bother questioning since they are all married with politicians (literally).
- kenkam 13y agoI would very much be interested in the source describing this media-politics marriage dynamic that you mention. >> Not surprising, there is no free speech in France. I don't see this as a free speech thing. I could argue there's no free speech in X. This kind of thing happens everywhere. People with money has power.
- Jacqued 13y agoI don't think there is a serious, in-depth analysis of the situation anywhere, but here is an article [1] that reminds these facs : - the President's partner is a journalist - 2 of the main ministers (Education and Work) are married to journalists - Another mediatised one (Productive recovery) is living with another journalist As for former cases, we had : - the minister for foreign affairs who was married to a political journalist on public television (Bernard Kouchner and Christine Ockrent) - a Minister for Industry and later Finances who was married to a journalist (DSK, later infamously evicted from the IMF, and Anne Sinclair) - a Minister for Finances who was married to an evening news presenter (Jean-Louis Borloo and Beatrice Schonberg) These are the most notorious cases that I can recall, but there are plenty of others. It's almost always a male political leader and a female journalist. [1] http://www.courrierinternational.com/article/2012/06/08/le-mariage-de-l-homme-politique-et-de-la-journaliste-specialite-hexagonale http://www.courrierinternational.com/article/2012/06/08/le-m...
- astrobe_ 13y agoHe is referring to the fact that some well-known journalists are married or live with some well-known people from politics world. For instance, Anne Sinclair, the wife of Dominique Strauss-Kahn, was presenting a very popular talk-show about politics in the 80/90ties. I know of a few current examples I don't remember of precisely.
- Mithaldu 13y agoThat guy managed to instantly go from slightly above zero respect to negative, when i copy-pasted stuff and noticed that his site saw fit to add spam onto that in the buffer.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- thekevan 13y agoSo you copied his content and were mad that he included text which noted you copied his content?
- rvkennedy 13y agoCtrl+C means copy the text, with optional formatting. It doesn't mean "run a script", and this little trick implies two things: first, that the author is going to assume that anyone who copies text is trying to steal the content without attribution; secondly, that having been corrected in your naughty ways, you'll blithely accept the link he's pasted in there. It's a web faux-pas, the equivalent of having your whole site in Flash, or trying to disable right-click for fear that someone might steal your precious, precious content.
- thekevan 13y ago"his content" It's not yours. He can do what he wants with it.
- arbitrage 13y agoIt appears that that is indeed what Mithaldu said. Well done, A+ for reading comprehension.
- PhasmaFelis 13y agoDesigning your website to hijack basic system functions is bullshit, there are plenty of legitimate reasons to copy text from an article (quoting it for discussion on a Hacker News thread is the first one that comes to mind). Unfortunately, cramming spam into copied text seems to be getting more popular, and rudeness aside it's a potential security risk (i.e. if an unsuspecting help-seeker copy-pastes a command line and it turns into a completely different command line in the buffer). Is there a plugin yet to disable copy-buffer spam specifically, or would I need to disable JavaScript completely?
- nraynaud 13y agoNote that this stupidity from a French independent administration didn't end up in droning a whole family and in the end everybody is good for a laugh and life carries on. This case has absolutely no chance of passing any legal test.
- salient 13y agoThese stupid short-sighted governments are going to ruin the Internet for the rest of us through their greed for money (like in this case) and power (NSA mass surveillance).
- logfromblammo 13y agoSome might argue that they already have ruined the Internet. National firewalls, massive endemic surveillance, and political-industrial shenanigans involving the telecoms controlling the backbones are a significant threat, and not trivial to route around. When powerful parties begin aggressively policing the content on the network instead of just controlling the infrastructure, that is just the evidence that we have already lost. Viable efforts to decentralize, universally encrypt traffic, and support true identities alongside pseudonyms and anonymous users started too late to avoid stepping backwards on service quality while moving forward on network freedoms.
- epsylon 13y agoThe comments here are atrocious. I expected more from HN than senseless French-bashing and 'Murica flag-waving. A few informations for context: - Two bloggers were fined, one French, and the American one for quoting the French. - The fine emanated from the Commission des Sanctions (sanction committee) of the AMF (Autorité des Marchés Financiers), the French stock market regulator. - It's supposed to be independent, but they are notoriously in bed with banks, with most members of the commission being former higher executives of major banks. Therefore, it's no surprise that they will do this kind of stunts in order to protect their interests. - It's been talked about in several (right-wing) publications like Atlantico or Les Échos, where journalists have pointed out that this is one more action that proves the absence of credibility of the AMF.
- axlez 13y agoI think most reasonnable people in France, both left and right wing, find it ridiculous. That being said, being french, the level of defiance and incomprehension the people in charge in France show for the internet is beyond ridiculous, and border on dangerous.
- mercurial 13y agoBy and large, there is a feeling that French politicians are disconnected from both modern realities and their electorate. I think it is, in most instance, correct. Their lack of understanding of technology (the famous "OpenOffice firewall incident", for instance) is partly a result of the lack of renewal of the French political class. Like many people from older generations who grew up without it, they don't necessarily have the ability or the interest in engaging with modern technology. This certainly does nothing to help with the record level of discontentment the government is experiencing.
- epsylon 13y ago> That being said, being french, the level of defiance and incomprehension the people in charge in France show for the internet is beyond ridiculous, and border on dangerous. Yes, but as the news show regularly, there's nothing specifically French towards lawmakers increasing will to control what is said and done on the internet. (The UK and the US come to mind, but there are plenty of other examples elsewhere) I'm French myself and I am frankly appalled by our government's (and the previous ones), but let's be honest, the grass isn't much greener elsewhere. (Except perhaps in Scandinavian / northern countries?)
- salient 13y agoCan I just say how much I hate that Google automatically turns blogspot.com into the TLD of your own country? Who the hell wants that?
- iSnow 13y agoGoogle does (or did?, I only use the browser search field) that to the search page URL as well.
- marcosdumay 13y agoAnd that's maddening. If I want to search some english terms, the easiest way to get meaningfull results it by tunneling my query through some computer at the US. Google just assumes that everybody can only speach one language, and is only intersted in one country, even when explicitly told otherwise.
- DanBC 13y ago...and I want it to work the other way. I want to be able to enter English terms, and have pages from other languages returned. I have no idea how that would work, but it's frustrating finding my www experience stuck in a UK/US bubble. As for Google, does /ncr (no country redirect) still work?
- iSnow 13y agoWell, you can also install the Google SSL search plugin in Firefox to get rid of this madness.
- iSnow 13y ago>The AFM has no jurisdiction over me, so they won't collect. As a US citizen living in the US, I am not subject to the absurdities of French laws, or French witch hunts. Just you wait till the transatlantic free-trade association is in place...
- sebkomianos 13y agoI would be more happy to read something like "Human blogger fined 8,000 euros by the french justice department for criticizing a bank". Now it sounds like the people of France decided to fine just an American blogger.
- renang 13y agoLooks like a bad choice of re-title. But I don't think it was intended to highlight the fact the blogger was American. > Human blogger fined 8,000 euros by the french justice department for criticizing a bank You missed the point where they were fining a non-French blogger that was giving straight facts and practicing his free speech.
- bausson 13y agoWell, those are both bad title, since french justice has nothing to do with it. "Human blogger fined 8,000 euros by the french assholes for criticizing a bank" is the closest to reality. "Human blogger fined 8,000 euros by the french independent authority for criticizing a bank" is close enough to reality and politically correct.
- sebkomianos 13y agoNon-French doesn't mean American. I mean, do you believe the case would be different if the blogger was, say, Italian?
- grecy 13y agoThe hypocrisy of the comments here is hilarious. This is exactly the same as the MPAA shutting down websites and fining people all over the world. All the people here crying "they have no jurisdiction!" are really just getting a taste what their own government has been doing to people all around the world for decades. Never mind 'Murica going around the world enforcing their laws and ideals with their armed forces.
- wpietri 13y agoHow many MPAA backers do you think you'll find here?
- scarmig 13y agoHacker News is certainly a hotbed of pro-MPAA activism.
- gknoy 13y agoAs others point out: Many here (even those of us who live in the US!) feel that it is equally a load of hogwash for the US to try go after others around the world. There's no hypocrisy to call "bullshit!" on both groups of cases.
- schrodinger 13y agoI don't agree with the MPAA fines either, but I wouldn't say that copyright infringement is the same as free speech....
- xacaxulu 13y agoAt least Commission des Sanctions didn't send drones to bomb the guys with hellfire missiles. I'd say the US doesn't have much moral authority on extranational law enforcement, fiscal or otherwise.
- PythonicAlpha 13y agoI don't see so much difference in France, the US or other countries: Money has not become king in our society, no! It has become God and the money-people are the priests of our religion! We are not so much better as the middle ages where.
- agilord 13y agoI think Tim O'Reilly or Jeff Jarvis or Clay Shirky (unfortunately I don't have the bookmark anymore) already addressed this: The case is a prime example that what you write is not only the jurisdiction where you write it, but also the jurisdiction where people read it. (And the jurisdiction where it stored and where it is going through as network traffic.)
- tbrownaw 13y agowhat you write is not only the jurisdiction I think you a word there. It's fairly absurd to say anyone who posts anything online should follow the laws of all places where whatever they posted could be read.
- agilord 13y agoIf you publish something, it can be read everywhere. There should be no surprise that people will judge your words based on their customs, on their laws, on their terms, and they will act within their jurisdiction. But that goes both ways: if a "Nigerian prince" scams you, you will not stop just because you were originally out of his jurisdiction.
- declan 13y agoThis judgment is unenforceable in the United States as a matter of public policy (thanks to our First Amendment). So it's merely an attempt by Société Générale to muzzle critics. If Mish were a multinational company with operations in France, it would be different. But he's not. So he can gleefully ignore it, as he is, correctly, doing.
- differentView 13y agoEven better, he is publicizing it.
- Xylakant 13y ago> So he can gleefully ignore it, as he is, correctly, doing. Ignoring it would mean "never base your action on that decision". However, now he can't travel to France or any of the french territories (Martinique etc.). That's not what I'd call ignoring. It's a shitty situation: Fined for invalid reasons in a trial where you never had a chance to fight.
- declan 13y agoYes, other countries have silly laws. I'm sure if you set up a blog complaining about the king of Swaziland, for instance, and his predilection for selecting an additional wife, willing or not, every year from the selection of bare-breasted virgin teenage girls paraded before him[1], you might not want to visit that particular corner of Africa. But the reach of Swazi or French laws is limited unless you visit Swazi or French soil. And in the case of the French libel law in question here, I'm not clear it would even preclude a visit to Paris. Do you have any citation for the proposition that a visitor would be arrested for what would be a civil tort? BTW, if he fought it in France, he would lose. See yesterday's "due process" discussion. If it's a bad law, due process helps you not one whit. [1] True: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/aug/30/aids.andrewmeldrum http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/aug/30/aids.andrewmeld...
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- lasermike026 13y agoSo much for Liberty, Fraternity, and Equality.
- cinquemb 13y agoThis might be pretty meta, but from looking at some of these comments makes me wonder how in the age of the internet, which give us a de facto global commons onto exchange ideas/information/currency and securely for those who take the steps to do so, some people still have an an affinity for whichever line drawn around them the sand in which one had no say in personally. Can we form something better through the aforementioned means? And what will it take for more people to start looking outside the box for solutions? More increased hardships of whimsical imposition?
- tokenizer 13y agoIf I understand you correctly, I think it has to do with the fact that their narratives don't align with the information. And that's only if the sources are credible (to them), the bias isn't obvious/against the readers bias, and the facts are presented clearly to them (presentation). So the major barrier to what you & I enjoy as the internet for people to adopt in my opinion, are the communication barriers we all face everyday. You and I most likely are somewhat uncommon because more people are more apt to do their socializing in real life. That said, we are seeing global communication at it's best. For instance, I'm an anarchist. But more specifically, and libertarian-socialist. One of my many hobbies is to argue with other political theory enthusiasts. More specifically, other Anarchists. For such a small group of people, it would make more sense to band together in common ideology to become stronger (like the internet), but humans have a way with creating division where there ought not to be none IMO. Would love you opinion on if removing this division in ourselves is possible, or if you don't believe that's universally true.
- cinquemb 13y agoI think I would have to agree with your opinion about banding together in common ideology, but I'm not sure about the stronger part (what that means to me). What I mean by that is that I haven't (nor do I think I will ever fully) decide(d) if that becoming stronger is to exert that influence over other ways of thinking/being or to become stronger so that me as the individual can live and move about the earth as freely as I choose understanding the danger that I may present upon myself and that upon other human beings trying to do the same or something else. So I guess whether the division in ourselves can be removed or not, It will ultimately come down to the individual or small group of people to make it so either way. And that's where I am now: working on something with a friend (maybe people more in the future) that will help explore what that means to me.
- ffrryuu 13y agoFreedom is dead.
- eliteraspberrie 13y agoThe AFM has no jurisdiction over me, so they won't collect. As a US citizen living in the US, I am not subject to the absurdities of French laws, or French witch hunts. All they get from me is a vow to never go to France. This was likely the desired outcome: a chilling effect. However, there is no need to be intimidated, Mr. Shedlock can still travel freely to France without worry. There are no debtors prisons, no credit rating agencies, and assets are difficult to seize outside of a criminal conviction for violent crimes. At worst, he will receive more letters in French.
- bwb 13y agolol, fuck the french :) I say that in complete jest, but that is hilarious.
- lifeisstillgood 13y ago"Hey France! you can't possibly borrow more than 27 times your house's value, that's crazy. Look at the US, they only borrow 17 times their houses value - that's prudent fiscal behaviour." yeah I feel so much happier
- pjc50 13y agoCompare American "product defamation" law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_libel_laws http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_libel_laws and the UK "Trafigura" lawsuit.
- amercade 13y agoPlease stop playing their game. The 1%, or maybe the 0.01%, wants the rest of us to fight stupidly over which country is better. "My laws are better", "your banks are crap" etc This is a world wide class warfare we are living. Don't play the countries confrontation games. Don't be their pawn. We the people should be together against the powerful ones and demand our rights everywhere, not just in our country. We need to globalize justice, not just the economy. <slightly demagogic and rushed rant/>