6 ms·

Hypothetical: I get a call from my boss's boss at 7pm asking if I can create a weekly metrics spreadsheet for him for the meeting tomorrow. Because I'm a go-get

• fragmede 13y ago
  4. Tell your boss's boss to go stuff themselves.
  • hyperbovine 13y ago
    5. Do not answer phone.
    • bsg75 13y ago
      This. Making yourself overly available trains those who would call upon you at unreasonable intervals to use your availability as a crutch. "Plan ahead? Why? I can always call Bob!"
    • slantyyz 13y ago
      I'd also add: Unless you're in a position where you're on-call, don't check your work e-mail when you're 'off duty'.
  • jeremyjh 13y ago
    Actually there are two steps here: 4 a. Acquire FU money. b. Tell your boss's boss to go stuff themselves.
    • potatolicious 13y ago
      You don't need FU money to tell people to go stuff themselves, you just have to have a skill set that's in high demand and a good reputation.
      • deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
      • bowlofpetunias 13y ago
        Actually, you mostly need a) balls and b) the verbal skills to tell people to go stuff themselves without being directly insulting. You would be surprised how few people lose their jobs by saying "no".
        • potatolicious 13y ago
          This is very true. It's a truly dysfunctional environment where someone gets fired for not willing to work un-negotiated overtime. In either way though, there is a huge advantage to having choice - and being able to walk away from a job if push comes to shove. It affects the way you carry yourself, and it dramatically alters the dynamic between you and your employer. The knowledge that, if things really got bad, if your boss turned out to be a giant asshole, you could walk away and be at another job in a week's time, is a tremendous psychological aid when it comes to pushing back and negotiating.
• bentcorner 13y ago
  In this hypothetical situation, if your boss is calling you at 7PM the day before a meeting, you've already lost. Either your boss should have had the good graces to give you a better heads up, or s/he is going to have to be a big boy, suck it up and either do it themselves or go without for the meeting because you're off the clock.
  • Spooky23 13y ago
    Good luck with this attitude in the real world unless you're a unionized hourly worker. In the real world, you're an at-will, exempt employee. So unless you're so special that you have the ability to tell your boss to f-off without worrying about the consequences, you're going to be updating that spreadsheet.
    • acjohnson55 13y ago
      You don't have to be special. You just have to have a skillset and knowledge base that's difficult enough to replace that people treat you with a modicum of respect. If the place isn't burning to the ground, I don't think it's unreasonable to push back.
      • mcguire 13y ago
        "a skillset and knowledge base that's difficult enough to replace" That would be the definition of special.
        • acjohnson55 13y ago
          I guess it depends on how low your bar for calling something "special" is. I would put on two different levels someone who truly has a "special" skillset vs. someone who is simply very effective and in whom the company has a sunk investment.
    • pyrocat 13y ago
      Or don't give your boss your cell phone number?
• MBlume 13y ago
  You missed an option. Maintain your work-life boundaries, tell your boss's boss you're sorry, but you have plans, and that he'll have a better chance of getting things like that from you with more lead time. I'm pretty sure David's arguing we should do that. ETA: Actually I really think the idea of "work-life boundaries" is a useful framing to have alongside "work-life balance"
  • RBerenguel 13y ago
    There's another missing option, which is your boss makes you get it done whatever the cost and your boss is the one telling his boss next time do things with time (like in R. Hamming's You and Your Research talk)
    • deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  • untog 13y ago
    tell your boss's boss you're sorry, but you have plans, and that he'll have a better chance of getting things like that from you with more lead time. Well, I think the actual answer here is that your boss doesn't ask you to do things like this in the first place. When he or she asks you to you're going to be hard-pressed to say no.
    • MBlume 13y ago
      That depends entirely on your confidence in your job security/your ability to find another job.
  • eholder 13y ago
    So what has that got to do with the advertising campaign and calling it a shame and dystopian? Technology is an enabler. If you want to work, the advertised technology enables you to work. If you don't want to work, the technology does not hold a knife to your throat and force you to work. This is coming from someone who refuses to take a smartphone from work because it raises expectations about answering phone calls and emails over evenings and holidays. I do appreciate VPN though, because it means I can leave early on Friday evening if I have something fun to do, and catch up on the work on Sunday night. And that's why DHH argument comes across as so silly, because it is dystopian not to allow technology that allows me to time shift my work. By DHH's same metric, the following are dystopian because they enable you to work outside your office: Remote desktop, VPN, Google Apps, SaaS offerings, web based tools, smartphones with work email. Google even has a similar pitch for their Google apps: >Need to attend a meeting from your kid’s soccer game? >Access your work from any device with a web browser – your computer, phone or tablet – and stay productive even when you’re away from the office >Google Apps makes it easy to stay connected to projects you’re working on and the people you work with, no matter where you are or what device you’re using.
• icecreampain 13y ago
  > also makes linkbaity, low-content posts You were expecting otherwise from a company? Whenever there's money to be made, expect that someone will try.
  • iaskwhy 13y ago
    Well, I'm pretty sure selling books is not their biggest slice of revenue. In situations like this I prefer to think of the post as coming from the author of a book which might give him some additional knowledge points on the issue at hand. David surely is one of the main advocates of remote work. In my opinion, this one it not linkbaity but insightful.
• bronbron 13y ago
  DHH's arguing that you're missing the very important 4th option here: 4) "Sorry, I'm busy with other things tonight."
  • deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
    • PeterisP 13y ago
      It has everything to do with the advertising campaign! The technology itself, as you say, is an enabler and is neutral. This advertising campaign, on the other hand, is not really advertising the technology but some [IMHO wrong/immoral] argument about how lifestyle & responsibilities should be handled.
    • bronbron 13y ago
      > If you want to work, the advertised technology enables you to work You want to work at your kid's soccer game? During a date? During happy hour? If the campaign was, "Work from home easily one day a week" this blog post wouldn't exist. The debate here has nothing to do with remote work as a concept. Many people have a problem with work-life balance and it's insensitive at best and dystopian at worst for Microsoft to basically say, "Hey, why aren't you working while your date's in the bathroom?"
• cousin_it 13y ago
  The problem is that if your boss knows that option is available, he'll use it more. That may not affect you but it affects the marginal case, where the only thing stopping the boss from overloading the worker is the fixed working hours. All change happens at the marginal case.
• runako 13y ago
  Look at the pictures in the post. Both pictures show a person working while actively ignoring the person they are with. Missing a goal at your kid's soccer game? Pretending to pay attention to your date while working under the table? I think that's what David is addressing.
  • romanovcode 13y ago
    I think no matter what MS will do David won't be happy. Example: MS creates online-powered tools: David is not happy because it means MS is advocating ignoring everything around you while working. MS does not create online-powered tools: David is not happy because MS does not create online-powered tools like, for example, google does.
    • Apocryphon 13y ago
      It's not the product, it's the pitch.
      • eholder 13y ago
        As I noted in another comment[1], Google's pitch is this: >For your business, this means every employee and everyone you work with can be productive from anywhere, using any device with an Internet connection. >Free your team from cubicles >Access your work from any device with a web browser – your computer, phone or tablet – and stay productive even when you’re away from the office. >Need to attend a meeting from your kid’s soccer game? [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6740512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6740512
        • Apocryphon 13y ago
          The ads with the silhouettes are a lot more in-your-face about fostering a lack of work/life balance, though. I wouldn't characterize it dystopian so much as it is tone-deaf, out-of-touch, and heavy-handed. Which is par for the course for Microsoft marketing. To me, it's less egregiously disagreeable than it is benignly mediocre. Oh MS, you're so corporate.
• greenyoda 13y ago
  "I'd rather have the ability to edit that Excel spreadsheet during happy hour than have to shift my plans around to do it some other time." And if this becomes a trend and lots of people start popping open their laptops at happy hours (go-getters probably tend to hang out with other go-getters), happy hours won't be very happy anymore.
• forgotAgain 13y ago
  I think his argument is that Microsoft is enabling actions such as your bosses while selling it as a boon to you. There are times when things "have" to get done but this sales pitch isn't about that. This pitch is about blending work and personal life to such a point as to there being indistinguishable. That makes for a very crappy life for the worker.
• nathantotten 13y ago
  I feel like your hypothetical boss in this hypothetical situation is not very organized as he didn't think about the weekly metrics spreadsheet until 7pm the night before it is due. It might be time to change hypothetical teams.
• corresation 13y ago
  DHH has some interesting observations on remote work, putting his money very much where his mouth is (which immediately differentiates his actions on this from mere opinion of others). It is not surprising that he comments on things related to a discussion that he has long been involved with. If something comes up in the security industry, I expect Schneier to comment on it. If remote work comes up, DHH will likely chime in. Either may or may not get voted up on HN if it promotes discussion.
• g123g 13y ago
  I would reply with the following famous quote- Your lack of planning is not my emergency
  • mikevm 13y ago
    No you won't. I bet that most of the hotshots in this thread that say they will tell their boss to go fuck himself will actually do the work and shut their mouths.
• g123g 13y ago
  I will reply with the following famous quote - Your lack of planning is not my emergency
  • chrisbennet 13y ago
    The way I've heard it is: "A lack of planning on your part, does not constitute and emergency my part."
  • jamesbritt 13y ago
    I keep seeing this or similar comments. A reply like this would almost certainly equate for many people to quitting their job on the spot. I'm puzzled why so many people think everyone has this luxury. There have been many times in my life where I've had bosses make shitty unfair demands, and while I would have loved to stick it to The Man and thrown off my proletarian chains the reality was I needed the damn job to pay my bills and quitting on the spot was not a sensible option. These sorts of discussions remind me of times I've hung out with guys who've witness some sort of verbal altercation, with somebody then insisting that if anyone every spoke to them that way they would kick his ass into next week. But we all knew how easy it was to talk like a tough guy when it wasn't your ass on the line. Yes, if your boss is an asshole then you need to figure out how to get to a better situation. But telling people to take a hike is not everyone's best career move, and having the option to make a bad situation a bit less onerous is a good thing.
• PeterisP 13y ago
  The problem is with the whole concept of a need for 'weekly' metrics spreadsheet suddenly appearing in 7pm. There are various options for fixing this problem: 1. Assigning and scheduling someone to do them weekly on the day before that meeting within business hours. 2. Implementing automation for the weekly metrics spreadsheets, to be stored or emailed at the scheduled time. 3. Othwerwise, accepting the fact that you won't have all the ponies you want by arbitrary deadlines. By the way, this is a choice for the boss to make, not you. And none of these options involve doing something at 7pm.
• adeaver 13y ago
  Like others have said, if your boss is calling you at 7PM to do a worksheet for a meeting the next day, one he has likely know about for a while, then worrying about your work/life balance is the least of your problems. As it's not so much the occasional 'Crap, we need X stat!' that is a problem, it's the constant assumption that your boss can call on you any time and _expect_ you will comply. That's just a shitty boss. Regardless of their title.
• metaphorm 13y ago
  how about you have some self respect and let your boss know that that request crosses a line.
• flurdy 13y ago
  Option 4: Say no. TPS reports can wait
• deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
• e12e 13y ago
  Setting aside the fact that if you've got metrics that can be compiled into a spreadsheet, you should probably also have a system to do that automagically -- how about option 5) Remind your boss to call someone in a different time-zone? Side note: Not sure if they still do it, but the IT team for Norwegian "local" airline Wideroe, used to rent some offices in Thailand, and have employees work 6 months from there (with families) -- in order to provide 24 hour support provided by the same team that did the rest of the work.
• mpclark 13y ago
  Do people really do this? Maybe I'm a bad boss, but I wouldn't dream of calling staff out of hours for stuff like this...
  • mark-r 13y ago
    There are bosses who will do this just so they can have some sense of power over you, never mind whether they actually need the results or not. Pray you never have one of those.
• mcguire 13y ago
  Hypothetical 2: You get a call from your boss at 7pm for the third time this week and the seventh time this month. Because you would like to keep your job, you have three options: 1. Cancel your evening plans and get the work completed. 2. Pop open your laptop, skip the second act of La traviata, and kind of get something that sort of looks correct done in the lobby. 3. Tell your boss that you'll be happy to get it done with sufficient lead time, but cannot do so this time. Then, skip the second act while you polish up your resume.
  • pgeorgi 13y ago
    4. Not bring that stupid cell phone to the opera house in the first place
• otikik 13y ago
  > I'm a go-getter and want to help him out It's language trap. Go-getter is just a tag. It sounds nice, but in your context it just means "I'm ok with altering my personal life when my boss asks". Here are some more options if you are not a 'go-getter': 4. Ask your boss to delay the meeting so you have enough time to do the spreadsheet in your own time. 5. Ask your boss if the spreadsheet is absolutely necessary for the meeting. Given that there was no time to have the "proper" document done, would it be possible to have a "high-level" version only? Maybe I can send the complete spreadsheet after the meeting via email? 6. The last-resort option would be proposing compensation with free time. "I will arrive early and do the spreadsheet early, but I will leave after lunch / will not come to work on friday". Make sure that you earn personal hours here: if you arrive 1 hour earlier, you should leave 2 hours earlier. Don't accept more money for that overtime. In addition to those two options, start telling your boss (softly) that having you prepare a spreadsheet manually every week is not very productive. Propose spending some time automating the process so at least it takes 15 minutes instead of several hours.
• kunai 13y ago
  While David's constant MS-bashing makes me weary to his writing most of the time, in this case, he's absolutely correct to call Microsoft out on this advertising. People using their electronic devices and ignoring people with them is already a large problem and is sucking the humanity out of humanity. Encouraging this sort of behavior is deplorable, but obviously Microsoft has got to sell a product and this sort of stuff appeals to management. Your scenario assumes that you're going to a bar, working while attaching no significance to anyone else in the process. These ads actively encourage ignoring your partner on a date or your kid at a game to get work done. Call me old-fashioned, but that picture simply isn't correct.
• skue 13y ago
  > David's arguing that the third option is the least conducive to work-life balance. Where does David say this, and why do we consistently upvote arguments to the extreme at HN? DHH is simply saying that encouraging people to work during their free time is a bad thing, and remote access doesn't magically make it okay. Since you offered an example, let me give you another. I have a good friend who came down with the flu early last week (not "flu" as in cold, but the full-fledged flu). All she wanted to do was rest, but because she can work from home her boss insisted she pull 10 hour days while in bed with a fever. They would never have wanted her in the office in that condition, but somehow remote work made it okay. She's still not healthy and hoping to sleep through the weekend to recover.
• leemuro 13y ago
  Apparently whoever made this at MS did so on their phone during happy hour because its some of the worst marketing I've ever seen.
• gress 13y ago
  If you're a 'Go-Getter', you've probably already recognized that your boss's lack of planning will impede your fast-track career. How are you planning to unseat him or find a new boss who can help fulfill your ambitions?
• ptbello 13y ago
  The point is that it's not ok for your boss to call for work at 7pm. It isn't. Increasing your efficiency in responding to that call is a step in the wrong direction. Plus the images show someone actively ignoring the person they are with to do work on the side, which also isn't ok in my book.
  • mikeash 13y ago
    There's nothing wrong with increasing your efficiency in responding to that call. We need to distinguish between the technological and the social. Increasing your ability to work in more times and more places is great! It means that if you really need it, you can use it instead of just being screwed. Socially, we need to realize that this incredible ability needs to only be used when truly necessary. Dumbing down the technology to not support it is not the answer.
• alan_cx 13y ago
  Unless I'm paid to be available, I'm not taking the call. Businesses buys your time according to the contracted deal; a set amount of time, to do a certain task(s), in exchange for money. Now, no business I know of gives out free money, even if you ask. So, why on earth would any one give them extra time on a task for no money? Try it. Go ask your boss for some money for doing nothing. In fact, phone late at night and ask...
• lignuist 13y ago
  4. Don't answer the phone at 7pm when you see it's your boss.
• netghost 13y ago
  You could also say no, but Von Trapp's is a damn good option too unless you get a bocce ball through the screen ;)