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Apple maps has reached "good enough" for a large number of use cases. It's now "good enough" to use as a satellite navigation system for a car, "good enough" to

Apple maps has reached "good enough" for a large number of use cases. It's now "good enough" to use as a satellite navigation system for a car, "good enough" to give me walking directions to nearby major sites/roads, and "good enough" as a "I'm sure I'm nearly at X, where the heck is it?" recovery tool. It still has a pretty useless database of locations. The listings for many shops/venues in my area are literally years (sometimes decades) out of date, even after I reported them back when iOS 6 was a beta. This is slowly improving, seemingly starting with locations that are commonly visited, but it's still not there. However, given that most of my use cases are "Enter post (ZIP) code, go there", this doesn't really matter. 90% of the time, Apple maps works fine, and there's no reason to use something else, especially when it's ad-laden. Given that maps are not a core concern for Apple, I've always been surprised they've not just thrown money at improving open street maps. A few hundred million to setup an "OSM foundation" (or fund an existing one) could seriously help them (decent free mapping database to use), and hurt Google (major commercial advantage limited/eliminated). They could probably get MS onboard as well.

ZeroGravitas 13y ago
MS does help OSM quite a bit, primarily by providing access to Bing satellite images which can be used to trace over to create OSM data. They also hired the guy who started OSM for a while (though he left recently to go to Telenav) And the OSM foundation does already exist: http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Main_Page http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Main_Page
deleted 13y ago
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Touche 13y ago
> 90% of the time, Apple maps works fine, and there's no reason to use something else, especially when it's ad-laden. Which maps are you talking about?
- tedunangst 13y ago
  Google Maps on iOS. I wouldn't call it ad-laden, but it does have a habit of popping up a sponsored result precisely when I'm least interested in it.
dingaling 13y ago
Just in general, whilst helping OSM is a topic, they do have Amazon affiliate links that earn them about 5% on purchases but for some reason they don't make this obvious on their website http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Merchandise#Amazon http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Merchandise#Amazon Hopefully I've thrown them about £50 over the past couple of years by bookmarking them as my link to Amazon.
riquito 13y ago
> Given that maps are not a core concern for Apple, I've always been surprised they've not just thrown money at improving open street maps I'm surprised that you're surprised, It's not really typical for Apple to improve an open source solution instead of build and lock their own. Or am I unaware of Apple contributions here and there?
- icebraining 13y ago
  CUPS, Webkit, LLVM/Clang?
  - pornel 13y ago
    Isn't that a list of exceptions? Apple is very sensitive about licenses, e.g. they've stopped updating OS X's GNU tools 6 years ago to avoid GPL v3. OSM's ODBL is share-alike, so Apple probably didn't like having risk of share-alike apply to their proprietary data.
    - icebraining 13y ago
      Isn't that a list of exceptions? They are exceptions in the sense that most of their software is proprietary, but they're still important core components. They also distribute a couple hundred open source packages with OS X: http://www.apple.com/opensource/ http://www.apple.com/opensource/ Apple is very sensitive about licenses, e.g. they've stopped updating OS X's GNU tools 6 years ago to avoid GPL v3. I only know what's reported here on HN, but they mostly seem sensitive about copyleft, not open source in general. OSM's ODBL is share-alike, so Apple probably didn't like having risk of share-alike apply to their proprietary data. But they do use OSM data: https://twitter.com/openstreetmap/statuses/198101512201834497 https://twitter.com/openstreetmap/statuses/19810151220183449...
      - Doctor_Fegg 13y ago
        Apple's use of OSM data dates from the days when the project was using the CC-BY-SA licence, whose share-alike is basically unenforceable for factual data. ODbL is more enforceable and Apple aren't using any ODbLed data, nor (as someone fairly closely connected with OSM) do I expect them to any time soon.
legulere 13y ago
Apple actually uses (or used?) Openstreetmap for some remote regions like afghanistan [1]. They also use openstreetmap for their internal problem report tool [2]. Also what I heard there was a big company which didn't want to be named that approached the openstreetmap foundation. I think the secrecy and licensing were the problems. [1]: http://www.undispatch.com/how-afghan-mappers-punked-apple http://www.undispatch.com/how-afghan-mappers-punked-apple [2]: http://blog.openstreetmap.de/wp-uploads//2013/10/a2.png http://blog.openstreetmap.de/wp-uploads//2013/10/a2.png
- bhousel 13y ago
  I'm pretty certain that both Apple and Google regularly import some subset of the OSM data. I have done a bunch of Openstreetmap edits in northern NJ that have found their way into both maps. Incidentally, if you have any, even mild, OCD tendencies, you might want to avoid Openstreetmap, haha. That new Id editor is dangerous.
  - yapcguy 13y ago
    Screw both Apple and Google. People will say they support open-source via certain projects but the proof is in the pudding. If they're using OSM data to cement one of their key platform apps, they need to donate money, lots of it, and be public about it. Remember, as fanboys like to crow, Apple has $100 billion of cash lying around and Google's share price is sky high.
    - mwfunk 13y ago
      It's not that simple unfortunately. Both of those companies would basically have to agree to be collaborators rather than competitors. Both companies would probably have a bunch of pissed-off shareholders who didn't agree with the move (who are the people who actually own those companies; technically that money belongs to them). Both companies would also get punished by the stock market, which favors competitiveness over cooperation for obvious reasons, which in turn would hurt shareholders. None of those things are intrinsically wrong or bad- if they weren't so competitive, they probably wouldn't have all that money in the first place, and as users we might not have any sort of maps at all on the Internet, or much lower-quality ones. None of those things are intrinsically correct or good either, as users would surely benefit from that type of cooperation. It's just The Way It Is. I wish the type of collaboration you describe could happen, and maybe it will some day. It's easy to anthropomorphize corporations as super rich individuals who sell stuff to people and aren't beholden to anyone, which is exactly what the tech press does most of the time, but the reality is way more complicated.
sehugg 13y ago
During a recent trip to Europe I used OSM (via an offline app called MapsWithMe) way, way more than either Apple or Google maps. Their POI coverage in Europe is pretty good, and even covers things like ATMs and public restrooms.
- davidw 13y ago
  OSM has - for some places at least - really good topographic data compared to Google maps: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tavon,+Coredo+TN,+Italy&hl=en&ll=46.360731,11.0816&spn=0.025352,0.066047&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=58.685917,135.263672&hnear=Tavon&t=p&z=15 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tavon,+Coredo+TN,+Italy&hl=en... http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/46.3652/11.0953&layers=C http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/46.3652/11.0953&layers=... And worryingly, Google has removed that layer entirely from their mobile application.
  - chockablock 13y ago
    They've also removed the terrain layer from the 'new' desktop app. http://productforums.google.com/forum/#!searchin/maps/terrain/maps/bJl-be4Nwrg/KLOr0N8SEvcJ http://productforums.google.com/forum/#!searchin/maps/terrai...
tlrobinson 13y ago
90% isn't good enough. I don't want to be directed to the wrong location even 10% of the time if there are better options available.
- tptacek 13y ago
  Evidently, it's good enough for over 100MM people.
  - EpicEng 13y ago
    People like my girlfriend who are either unaware of better alternatives or too lazy to look into it. It took me months to get her to download google maps, finally culminating in a small argument when apple maps sent us the wrong way in unfamiliar territory. Apple maps is far inferior.
    - sillysaurus2 13y ago
      People like my girlfriend who are either unaware of better alternatives or too lazy to look into it. Isn't that the definition of "good enough"? If it were truly awful, then she'd be forced to look up an alternative, because it'd never work. So it must work well enough for her.
    - Iftheshoefits 13y ago
      "[U]naware of better alternatives or too lazy to look into it" describes the vast majority of consumers. "Gullible and/or easily swayed by slick marketing" describes roughly the same set. That's why marketing works.
  - tlrobinson 13y ago
    Ok, "when I know there are better options available"
    - tptacek 13y ago
      I guess I was prompted to reply because I also installed Google Maps, but, like the 100MM+ people in this article, I never ever use it; I just tap the Apple Maps button, and I can't really think of a time where it screwed me. These anecdotes about typing "20 Jay Street" and ending up at Niagara Falls are kind of silly. That's been my experience of all mapping applications, and, regardless of whether it happens more in Apple Maps (I'm sure it does!), the solution is so obvious I never even think about it; I just further qualify the address. "20 Jay Brooklyn" in Apple Maps, right next to a coffee roasting place near the bridge.

ZeroGravitas 13y ago

MS does help OSM quite a bit, primarily by providing access to Bing satellite images which can be used to trace over to create OSM data. They also hired the guy who started OSM for a while (though he left recently to go to Telenav) And the OSM foundation does already exist: http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Main_Page http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Main_Page

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

Touche 13y ago

> 90% of the time, Apple maps works fine, and there's no reason to use something else, especially when it's ad-laden. Which maps are you talking about?

tedunangst 13y ago
Google Maps on iOS. I wouldn't call it ad-laden, but it does have a habit of popping up a sponsored result precisely when I'm least interested in it.

dingaling 13y ago

Just in general, whilst helping OSM is a topic, they do have Amazon affiliate links that earn them about 5% on purchases but for some reason they don't make this obvious on their website http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Merchandise#Amazon http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Merchandise#Amazon Hopefully I've thrown them about £50 over the past couple of years by bookmarking them as my link to Amazon.

riquito 13y ago

> Given that maps are not a core concern for Apple, I've always been surprised they've not just thrown money at improving open street maps I'm surprised that you're surprised, It's not really typical for Apple to improve an open source solution instead of build and lock their own. Or am I unaware of Apple contributions here and there?

icebraining 13y ago
CUPS, Webkit, LLVM/Clang?
- pornel 13y ago
  Isn't that a list of exceptions? Apple is very sensitive about licenses, e.g. they've stopped updating OS X's GNU tools 6 years ago to avoid GPL v3. OSM's ODBL is share-alike, so Apple probably didn't like having risk of share-alike apply to their proprietary data.
  - icebraining 13y ago
    Isn't that a list of exceptions? They are exceptions in the sense that most of their software is proprietary, but they're still important core components. They also distribute a couple hundred open source packages with OS X: http://www.apple.com/opensource/ http://www.apple.com/opensource/ Apple is very sensitive about licenses, e.g. they've stopped updating OS X's GNU tools 6 years ago to avoid GPL v3. I only know what's reported here on HN, but they mostly seem sensitive about copyleft, not open source in general. OSM's ODBL is share-alike, so Apple probably didn't like having risk of share-alike apply to their proprietary data. But they do use OSM data: https://twitter.com/openstreetmap/statuses/198101512201834497 https://twitter.com/openstreetmap/statuses/19810151220183449...
    - Doctor_Fegg 13y ago
      Apple's use of OSM data dates from the days when the project was using the CC-BY-SA licence, whose share-alike is basically unenforceable for factual data. ODbL is more enforceable and Apple aren't using any ODbLed data, nor (as someone fairly closely connected with OSM) do I expect them to any time soon.

legulere 13y ago

Apple actually uses (or used?) Openstreetmap for some remote regions like afghanistan [1]. They also use openstreetmap for their internal problem report tool [2]. Also what I heard there was a big company which didn't want to be named that approached the openstreetmap foundation. I think the secrecy and licensing were the problems. [1]: http://www.undispatch.com/how-afghan-mappers-punked-apple http://www.undispatch.com/how-afghan-mappers-punked-apple [2]: http://blog.openstreetmap.de/wp-uploads//2013/10/a2.png http://blog.openstreetmap.de/wp-uploads//2013/10/a2.png

bhousel 13y ago
I'm pretty certain that both Apple and Google regularly import some subset of the OSM data. I have done a bunch of Openstreetmap edits in northern NJ that have found their way into both maps. Incidentally, if you have any, even mild, OCD tendencies, you might want to avoid Openstreetmap, haha. That new Id editor is dangerous.
- yapcguy 13y ago
  Screw both Apple and Google. People will say they support open-source via certain projects but the proof is in the pudding. If they're using OSM data to cement one of their key platform apps, they need to donate money, lots of it, and be public about it. Remember, as fanboys like to crow, Apple has $100 billion of cash lying around and Google's share price is sky high.
  - mwfunk 13y ago
    It's not that simple unfortunately. Both of those companies would basically have to agree to be collaborators rather than competitors. Both companies would probably have a bunch of pissed-off shareholders who didn't agree with the move (who are the people who actually own those companies; technically that money belongs to them). Both companies would also get punished by the stock market, which favors competitiveness over cooperation for obvious reasons, which in turn would hurt shareholders. None of those things are intrinsically wrong or bad- if they weren't so competitive, they probably wouldn't have all that money in the first place, and as users we might not have any sort of maps at all on the Internet, or much lower-quality ones. None of those things are intrinsically correct or good either, as users would surely benefit from that type of cooperation. It's just The Way It Is. I wish the type of collaboration you describe could happen, and maybe it will some day. It's easy to anthropomorphize corporations as super rich individuals who sell stuff to people and aren't beholden to anyone, which is exactly what the tech press does most of the time, but the reality is way more complicated.

sehugg 13y ago

During a recent trip to Europe I used OSM (via an offline app called MapsWithMe) way, way more than either Apple or Google maps. Their POI coverage in Europe is pretty good, and even covers things like ATMs and public restrooms.

davidw 13y ago
OSM has - for some places at least - really good topographic data compared to Google maps: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tavon,+Coredo+TN,+Italy&hl=en&ll=46.360731,11.0816&spn=0.025352,0.066047&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=58.685917,135.263672&hnear=Tavon&t=p&z=15 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tavon,+Coredo+TN,+Italy&hl=en... http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/46.3652/11.0953&layers=C http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/46.3652/11.0953&layers=... And worryingly, Google has removed that layer entirely from their mobile application.
- chockablock 13y ago
  They've also removed the terrain layer from the 'new' desktop app. http://productforums.google.com/forum/#!searchin/maps/terrain/maps/bJl-be4Nwrg/KLOr0N8SEvcJ http://productforums.google.com/forum/#!searchin/maps/terrai...

tlrobinson 13y ago

90% isn't good enough. I don't want to be directed to the wrong location even 10% of the time if there are better options available.

tptacek 13y ago
Evidently, it's good enough for over 100MM people.
- EpicEng 13y ago
  People like my girlfriend who are either unaware of better alternatives or too lazy to look into it. It took me months to get her to download google maps, finally culminating in a small argument when apple maps sent us the wrong way in unfamiliar territory. Apple maps is far inferior.
  - sillysaurus2 13y ago
    People like my girlfriend who are either unaware of better alternatives or too lazy to look into it. Isn't that the definition of "good enough"? If it were truly awful, then she'd be forced to look up an alternative, because it'd never work. So it must work well enough for her.
  - Iftheshoefits 13y ago
    "[U]naware of better alternatives or too lazy to look into it" describes the vast majority of consumers. "Gullible and/or easily swayed by slick marketing" describes roughly the same set. That's why marketing works.
- tlrobinson 13y ago
  Ok, "when I know there are better options available"
  - tptacek 13y ago
    I guess I was prompted to reply because I also installed Google Maps, but, like the 100MM+ people in this article, I never ever use it; I just tap the Apple Maps button, and I can't really think of a time where it screwed me. These anecdotes about typing "20 Jay Street" and ending up at Niagara Falls are kind of silly. That's been my experience of all mapping applications, and, regardless of whether it happens more in Apple Maps (I'm sure it does!), the solution is so obvious I never even think about it; I just further qualify the address. "20 Jay Brooklyn" in Apple Maps, right next to a coffee roasting place near the bridge.