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I'm glad the driver is safe. However, I'm not sure what posting this letter is supposed to accomplish other than show that the driver is still a Tesla supporte

I'm glad the driver is safe. However, I'm not sure what posting this letter is supposed to accomplish other than show that the driver is still a Tesla supporter. The remainder of the letter seems to be (potentially) counterproductive in that it describes that the car being on fire wasn't as dangerous as it sounds. Tesla isn't going to be able to tackle a perception problem by promoting safety features of the car when in flames.

mdmarra 13y ago
There was a more detailed account floating around. Essentially, each battery cell is in its own fire-resistant compartment. The fire crew that responded to the call used procedures that are standard for other electric cars, but are not proper for a Tesla. Essentially, they "punched through" these compartments in an attempt to extinguish the fire, which actually exacerbated the problem by allowing the fire to spread to other battery cells. When the fire department arrived, they observed standard procedure, which was to gain access to the source of the fire by puncturing holes in the top of the battery's protective metal plate and applying water. For the Model S lithium-ion battery, it was correct to apply water (vs. dry chemical extinguisher), but not to puncture the metal firewall, as the newly created holes allowed the flames to then vent upwards into the front trunk section of the Model S. Nonetheless, a combination of water followed by dry chemical extinguisher quickly brought the fire to an end. http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/model-s-fire http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/model-s-fire I saw a Nissan in fire a month or so ago outside of Philly. Car fires happen regardless of engine technology.
- 001sky 13y ago
  Same problem in the WA fire. You cannot extinguish a LiIon fire without (it seems) cutting the car open. In Wa, they put out the fire and it restarted. They had to flip it over and cut holes in it (presumably, through the floor) see > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6498232 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6498232
  - MertsA 13y ago
    The thing to remember with a battery fire is that it's not enough to just put out the flaming electrolyte, when the battery is shorted out you don't just lose all that energy, it gets converted into heat which is what ignites the electrolyte. The battery in a Model S is made up of 11 modules so when one of these modules is shorted you don't have the entire capacity of the battery being turned into heat but depending on if an entire module was shorted out or maybe two adjoining modules that's still a lot of energy and once the whole thing starts burning you might compromise the other batteries in the system. Tesla engineered firewalls in between the battery modules but it's not like it's fireproof forever, it just means the heat has to transfer through conduction and gives the driver additional time before the vehicle goes up or before the fire department gets there. What might be a good improvement is a 2.5 inch fire hydrant fitting under the back of the car that the fire department could connect to to flood the battery compartment with water and just hook the car up to a hydrant for 30 minutes to make sure the fire stays out.
- threeseed 13y ago
  > Car fires happen regardless of engine technology. Of course. But nobody has statistics about the rate of fires per accident type. And remember that this isn't necessarily a reflection on the engine technology but more so the design of the car. Given that accidents often result in debris and also that people drive over stupid things maybe batteries shouldn't be under the cabin floor.
  - 001sky 13y ago
    http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/files/research/nfpa%20reports/vehicles/osautomobilefires.pdf http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/files/research/nfpa%20reports/ve... Its pretty rare for car fires to happen on public highways. Most car fires are incidents with a vehicle at rest, or deliberately set. Something like 2% of accidents involve petrol based fuels systems. Many more are cuased by other issues. Telsla (as an example) previously recalled ~40% of its Roadster models in 2010 for fire-hazard related faulty wiring. That kind of thing would be attributable to any type of car. The high incidence of Model S LiIon fires in the field, is much more problematic and worrisome, IMHO. Like you say, it may just be a design flaw on the location of the battery pack. Aft of the front axle is a debri-zone, wheras aft of the rear axle would be more protected from debris (but subject to crumple zone impacts compromizing the integrity of the pack directly or through shrapnel)
    - cma 13y ago
      The problem with tesla is the active suspension dropping you to a couple inches off the road on the highway. Debris that you would normally pass over shoots into the under carraige..
      - sjwright 13y ago
        Perhaps they could use a radar scanner at the front to look for oversized objects, and react by pumping the suspension up to maximum height?
        cma 13y ago
- taternuts 13y ago
  I've never seen a car fire until last week, when I passed by this: http://i.imgur.com/k0xylRe.png http://i.imgur.com/k0xylRe.png. I was really surprised at how large the fire was (it looked worse in person)
- tedunangst 13y ago
  It seems putting the onus on every fire department to learn new tesla procedures may be the wrong approach.
  - alayne 13y ago
    Why do you say that? The fire department is a service hired by us to extinguish our stuff. Didn't they learn how to put out gasoline engine car fires 100 years ago? They should have refused because they only knew how to put out horse fires?
    - midgetjones 13y ago
      Don't joke, horse fires are a very real problem.
    - tedunangst 13y ago
      In those 100 years, we've learned a thing or two. Which is why we have fire codes and whatnot. We reduce the variation in the number of expected scenarios. I'll also note that in general, it is easier to learn something different when it's not similar to what you already know. Horse fire vs car fire is easy. Car type A vs car type B vs car type C is more difficult.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  - JshWright 13y ago
    Tesla is actually _really_ good at distributing training materials to emergency responders. All vehicle manufacturers do it some some extent, but Tesla sets a very high bar. As an example, check out this training video they put together: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntK3rvVl2Qw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntK3rvVl2Qw (skip to 26:45 for the fun part ;) This video in particular is about extrication, not firefighting, but you get the idea... We train frequently to deal with the new challenges presented by electric vehicles.
    - tedunangst 13y ago
- chenster 13y ago
  Tesla has no engine. Oh, don't follow a truck. http://www.teslamotors.com/models/features#/safety http://www.teslamotors.com/models/features#/safety
michaeldhopkins 13y ago
It's supposed to show that the Tesla car is structurally sound and prevented the object on the road from ripping further into the car than it otherwise would have. It's also supposed to show that the car got the driver out of a dangerous situation by displaying warnings early. Finally, it is supposed to show that the car is resilient when bad things happen because it is still drivable. I'm just explaining the viewpoint of the letter since you were unsure. I'm not opining that it is effective/ineffective or productive/counterproductive.
- threeseed 13y ago
  And what would happen if the person was rendered unconscious during an accident ? I think the point is still valid that the safety features are nice but the core issue is that the car burst into flames during a seemingly minor accident.
  - ricardobeat 13y ago
    Running over a trailer hitch at 70mph is a major accident. A smaller, lighter car could have been thrown off the road or rolled over, in addition to having the object puncture and invade the passenger compartment possibly causing injury, and loss of control. You're right in that it would be unlikely to cause a fire, though I wouldn't really worry about that if I was dead already.
    - timr 13y ago
      "A smaller, lighter car could have been thrown off the road or rolled over, in addition to having the object puncture and invade the passenger compartment possibly causing injury, and loss of control." ...or maybe not. You're just speculating. I've run over stuff at high speeds in other cars, and I"m here to tell you that they didn't flip over, puncture, or burst into flames. The most common outcome, in my experience, is that the oil pan or transmission pan gets dented, and starts to leak.
      - drabiega 13y ago
zobzu 13y ago
if you crash a regular car and it catches fire do you feel its unsafe? in this case whatever the driver hit must have been pretty big and went through the aluminum (the bottom of the tesla is without any doubt much stronger than a regular car due to the battery compartment). It's likely to have caused a fuel leak and electric fire in any other car as well, except the car wouldn't tell you that and everything would have burnt (if you have never seen a car fire, firemen can't stop the fire from consuming the car once the fire reaches the fuel tank) the point is that the car knew it was damaged and self diagnosed properly, and that electric circuits are all properly isolated and monitored. Pretty cool if you ask me.
jamesrom 13y ago
The reason this was posted by Tesla is so that they control the message. The mainstream media would love to take an incident like this and completely turn in it around to make a news story out of it. But because Tesla has already written about the incident, it makes trying to spin it in a negative light much harder, as Tesla will not need to take a defensive position.
AsymetricCom 13y ago
Trying to get in on some of that TSLA action, eh?
mkr-hn 13y ago
It's not unusual. Many car ads show a crash test.

mdmarra 13y ago

There was a more detailed account floating around. Essentially, each battery cell is in its own fire-resistant compartment. The fire crew that responded to the call used procedures that are standard for other electric cars, but are not proper for a Tesla. Essentially, they "punched through" these compartments in an attempt to extinguish the fire, which actually exacerbated the problem by allowing the fire to spread to other battery cells. When the fire department arrived, they observed standard procedure, which was to gain access to the source of the fire by puncturing holes in the top of the battery's protective metal plate and applying water. For the Model S lithium-ion battery, it was correct to apply water (vs. dry chemical extinguisher), but not to puncture the metal firewall, as the newly created holes allowed the flames to then vent upwards into the front trunk section of the Model S. Nonetheless, a combination of water followed by dry chemical extinguisher quickly brought the fire to an end. http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/model-s-fire http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/model-s-fire I saw a Nissan in fire a month or so ago outside of Philly. Car fires happen regardless of engine technology.

001sky 13y ago
Same problem in the WA fire. You cannot extinguish a LiIon fire without (it seems) cutting the car open. In Wa, they put out the fire and it restarted. They had to flip it over and cut holes in it (presumably, through the floor) see > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6498232 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6498232
- MertsA 13y ago
  The thing to remember with a battery fire is that it's not enough to just put out the flaming electrolyte, when the battery is shorted out you don't just lose all that energy, it gets converted into heat which is what ignites the electrolyte. The battery in a Model S is made up of 11 modules so when one of these modules is shorted you don't have the entire capacity of the battery being turned into heat but depending on if an entire module was shorted out or maybe two adjoining modules that's still a lot of energy and once the whole thing starts burning you might compromise the other batteries in the system. Tesla engineered firewalls in between the battery modules but it's not like it's fireproof forever, it just means the heat has to transfer through conduction and gives the driver additional time before the vehicle goes up or before the fire department gets there. What might be a good improvement is a 2.5 inch fire hydrant fitting under the back of the car that the fire department could connect to to flood the battery compartment with water and just hook the car up to a hydrant for 30 minutes to make sure the fire stays out.
threeseed 13y ago
> Car fires happen regardless of engine technology. Of course. But nobody has statistics about the rate of fires per accident type. And remember that this isn't necessarily a reflection on the engine technology but more so the design of the car. Given that accidents often result in debris and also that people drive over stupid things maybe batteries shouldn't be under the cabin floor.
- 001sky 13y ago
  http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/files/research/nfpa%20reports/vehicles/osautomobilefires.pdf http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/files/research/nfpa%20reports/ve... Its pretty rare for car fires to happen on public highways. Most car fires are incidents with a vehicle at rest, or deliberately set. Something like 2% of accidents involve petrol based fuels systems. Many more are cuased by other issues. Telsla (as an example) previously recalled ~40% of its Roadster models in 2010 for fire-hazard related faulty wiring. That kind of thing would be attributable to any type of car. The high incidence of Model S LiIon fires in the field, is much more problematic and worrisome, IMHO. Like you say, it may just be a design flaw on the location of the battery pack. Aft of the front axle is a debri-zone, wheras aft of the rear axle would be more protected from debris (but subject to crumple zone impacts compromizing the integrity of the pack directly or through shrapnel)
  - cma 13y ago
    The problem with tesla is the active suspension dropping you to a couple inches off the road on the highway. Debris that you would normally pass over shoots into the under carraige..
    - sjwright 13y ago
      Perhaps they could use a radar scanner at the front to look for oversized objects, and react by pumping the suspension up to maximum height?
      - cma 13y ago
taternuts 13y ago
I've never seen a car fire until last week, when I passed by this: http://i.imgur.com/k0xylRe.png http://i.imgur.com/k0xylRe.png. I was really surprised at how large the fire was (it looked worse in person)
tedunangst 13y ago
It seems putting the onus on every fire department to learn new tesla procedures may be the wrong approach.
- alayne 13y ago
  Why do you say that? The fire department is a service hired by us to extinguish our stuff. Didn't they learn how to put out gasoline engine car fires 100 years ago? They should have refused because they only knew how to put out horse fires?
  - midgetjones 13y ago
    Don't joke, horse fires are a very real problem.
  - tedunangst 13y ago
    In those 100 years, we've learned a thing or two. Which is why we have fire codes and whatnot. We reduce the variation in the number of expected scenarios. I'll also note that in general, it is easier to learn something different when it's not similar to what you already know. Horse fire vs car fire is easy. Car type A vs car type B vs car type C is more difficult.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- JshWright 13y ago
  Tesla is actually _really_ good at distributing training materials to emergency responders. All vehicle manufacturers do it some some extent, but Tesla sets a very high bar. As an example, check out this training video they put together: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntK3rvVl2Qw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntK3rvVl2Qw (skip to 26:45 for the fun part ;) This video in particular is about extrication, not firefighting, but you get the idea... We train frequently to deal with the new challenges presented by electric vehicles.
  - tedunangst 13y ago
chenster 13y ago
Tesla has no engine. Oh, don't follow a truck. http://www.teslamotors.com/models/features#/safety http://www.teslamotors.com/models/features#/safety

michaeldhopkins 13y ago

It's supposed to show that the Tesla car is structurally sound and prevented the object on the road from ripping further into the car than it otherwise would have. It's also supposed to show that the car got the driver out of a dangerous situation by displaying warnings early. Finally, it is supposed to show that the car is resilient when bad things happen because it is still drivable. I'm just explaining the viewpoint of the letter since you were unsure. I'm not opining that it is effective/ineffective or productive/counterproductive.

threeseed 13y ago
And what would happen if the person was rendered unconscious during an accident ? I think the point is still valid that the safety features are nice but the core issue is that the car burst into flames during a seemingly minor accident.
- ricardobeat 13y ago
  Running over a trailer hitch at 70mph is a major accident. A smaller, lighter car could have been thrown off the road or rolled over, in addition to having the object puncture and invade the passenger compartment possibly causing injury, and loss of control. You're right in that it would be unlikely to cause a fire, though I wouldn't really worry about that if I was dead already.
  - timr 13y ago
    "A smaller, lighter car could have been thrown off the road or rolled over, in addition to having the object puncture and invade the passenger compartment possibly causing injury, and loss of control." ...or maybe not. You're just speculating. I've run over stuff at high speeds in other cars, and I"m here to tell you that they didn't flip over, puncture, or burst into flames. The most common outcome, in my experience, is that the oil pan or transmission pan gets dented, and starts to leak.
    - drabiega 13y ago

zobzu 13y ago

if you crash a regular car and it catches fire do you feel its unsafe? in this case whatever the driver hit must have been pretty big and went through the aluminum (the bottom of the tesla is without any doubt much stronger than a regular car due to the battery compartment). It's likely to have caused a fuel leak and electric fire in any other car as well, except the car wouldn't tell you that and everything would have burnt (if you have never seen a car fire, firemen can't stop the fire from consuming the car once the fire reaches the fuel tank) the point is that the car knew it was damaged and self diagnosed properly, and that electric circuits are all properly isolated and monitored. Pretty cool if you ask me.

jamesrom 13y ago

The reason this was posted by Tesla is so that they control the message. The mainstream media would love to take an incident like this and completely turn in it around to make a news story out of it. But because Tesla has already written about the incident, it makes trying to spin it in a negative light much harder, as Tesla will not need to take a defensive position.

AsymetricCom 13y ago

Trying to get in on some of that TSLA action, eh?

mkr-hn 13y ago

It's not unusual. Many car ads show a crash test.