7 ms·

Chinese can now buy real estate with Bitcoin

56 points by peter123 13y ago

creativeone 13y ago
So, I own investment real estate that I wouldn't mind selling for bitcoins. Is there a good place to find buyers who want to pay with Bitcoin?
- r3m6 13y ago
  Why would you care about in which currency you are paid?
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    Cost of conversion would be a potential reason.
    - creativeone 13y ago
      Right, if there are supposedly buyers from abroad who want to buy, we can save money in currency conversions and transfers across borders.
      - dllthomas 13y ago
        Doesn't even have to be "from abroad" - if a buyer has a stack of bitcoins and I want a stack of bitcoins, going through an exchange is going to be expensive given the pretty broad spreads (if there's even the necessary liquidity).
  - GigabyteCoin 13y ago
    It's not easy to buy $500,000 worth of bitcoins on the open market at "current value".
    - nwzpaperman 13y ago
      +1 No market depth I expect the Chinese to expand support of cryptocurrencies to strengthen their geo-political position through a peaceful strategy like this. All other financial strategies involve interfacing with legacy financial warehouses and inventory systems which limit their leverage.
    - TomGullen 13y ago
      Someone bought ~$1mm on gox a few days ago without too much trouble I think
      - GigabyteCoin 13y ago
        They did, but it sparked a frenzy of buying shortly afterwards...
- travisp 13y ago
  Most people, for good reason, use an escrow agent when buying and selling real estate (at least here in the US). As a buyer, I would be doubly uncertain about directly transferring someone Bitcoin since it's at least as irreversible as a processed wire, and probably harder to have good legal recourse for. If you can find someone who would do escrow with Bitcoin, you'd probably have better luck.
  - adestefan 13y ago
    You'll also need to pay any titling, fees, insurance, and taxes in USD.
- jamoes 13y ago
  Take a look at BitPremier: http://www.bitpremier.com/ http://www.bitpremier.com/. They advertise your high-value good on their site, and then once they pair you up with a buyer they also serve as an escrow agency.
fiatmoney 13y ago
Funnily enough, the real estate market is exempt from most money laundering regulations. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-10/money-laundering-exposed-key-component-housing-bubbles-all-cash-bid http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-10/money-laundering-ex...
- im_a_lawyer 13y ago
  ^ this. The amount of "ultra-luxury" towers going on in my city is way too high. Who the fuck has $800,000 cash? Numbers don't add up.
mfringel 13y ago
28000 CNY/sqm * ~.1 sqm/sqft * .16 USD/CNY = ~$448/sqft. That's coming up on prices in SF, and a little bit more expensive than Boston. I had no idea.
- ihsw 13y ago
  The Chinese property market/household market is a fickle thing -- a lot of it revolves around speculation. There is a suspicion that there will be a large migration of rural workers to urban regions. And large is an understatement -- everybody is betting everything on it.
  - maaku 13y ago
    > a lot of it revolves around speculation Pretty much all of it. People in Shanghai, for example, use properties as a cash-storage mechanism, thinking it more secure than a CD. This is all going to end badly.
  - VintageCool 13y ago
    Xi Jinping's third plenum starts tomorrow, and many people believe that they will reform the hukou system, allowing people to sell their property in the country and buy property in the city. That could create a lot of urban homebuyers and encourage more migration to urban areas.
mrb 13y ago
FWIW, China seems to be tacitly approving Bitcoin. State-controlled CCTV has been broadcasting more and more news segments about the currency that are all very favorable and positive(!) A lot of chinese Bitcoin users have reported this stance, eg: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=320260.0 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=320260.0
- malandrew 13y ago
  We've pretty much seen that no other currency is going to undermine the US dollar. It is the de facto reserve currency for the World. This has only been further cemented by globalization since everyone is now so far in bed with the US via trade that everyone has no choice but to let the US keep racking up a national debt. Questioning that debt and forcing default would be tantamount to economic mutually assured destruction. For China, it knows the Yuan is never going to be a real competitor to the US dollar, since there is even less trust in China, since it has been so willing to manipulate exchange rates with its own currency. AFAICT bitcoin presents the only real existential risk to the US dollar. It's a long long road to get there and it might fail spectacularly or simply become just another currency, but even if there is only 0.1% chance of it upsetting the US dollar, that is 0.1% chance more than any other currency out there. Personally, if this does play out, I see the US to be one of the last countries to get on the Bitcoin wagon and lose out. Our currency is the most fit and we have the least amount to gain in the short term from adopting it. But this does not change the fact that many countries with far less stable currencies and governments that have proven themselves untrustworthy with their monetary policies, where the citizens would flock to a currency like bitcoin once security and usability issues are addressed. I'd say that every country where inflation is over 4% per annum is a candidate for wanting to acquire bitcoins.
  - brianwawok 13y ago
    Well if BTC has a .01% chance to replace USD, the Euro has at least a .005% chance to replace the USD
  - jafaku 13y ago
    The US is already holding the largest stash of Bitcoins in the world. They seized about 144,000 BTC from Silk Road.
robk 13y ago
I wonder how much of the current BTC price spike is due to new Chinese coming into the market?
- jamoes 13y ago
  A lot of the current price is because of the Chinese market. If you follow the price surges, usually the exchange BTCChina is the one that starts rising first, followed by the US exchanges. The Genesis Block did a good analysis on the Chinese markets a few weeks ago [1]. I really like the bottom chart in that article, which graphs the price differential between Chinese and US exchanges. [1] http://thegenesisblock.com/bitcoin-climbs-highest-price-since-april-led-cny-movement/ http://thegenesisblock.com/bitcoin-climbs-highest-price-sinc...
mmagin 13y ago
And yet, they still cannot invest in foreign stocks.
- maaku 13y ago
  Those with money do. (Often through BVI shell companies).
trevelyan 13y ago
The real question is when they start selling real estate to use bitcoin to move their assets outside China where there is greater ROI.
- simbolit 13y ago
  you realise that if someone is buying real estate, someone needs to be selling it, right?
  - xux 13y ago
    there's no shortage of sellers in the Chinese real estate market. It's a bubble.
tokenadult 13y ago
From the article: "The current run-up in the price of Bitcoin is an indicator of the interest in the currency, but is likely largely due to speculation." Reporting by economically literate journalists familiar with the situation in China points out that China's housing market is a bubble.[1][2] The speculation in the current residential housing market in China is because middle-class investors cannot find a better investment vehicle, and because they are making unrealistic assumptions about future demand. What's unrealistic about the demand is that migrant workers moving legally to Chinese cities (as they already move illegally) will not possibly be able to afford current market prices for new housing units in China. There is a huge oversupply of housing that is too expensive for anyone to buy who is in the market for a place to live (as contrasted with being in the market for a speculative investment vehicle). The bubble will have to pop. When the China housing bubble pops, China's whole national economy will be severely stressed, and political instability may erupt. The ability to buy houses with Bitcoin reported in this thread is just one more sign of a bubble housing market in China. [1] http://finance.yahoo.com/news/uncomfortable-truth-chinas-property-market-084546007.html http://finance.yahoo.com/news/uncomfortable-truth-chinas-pro... [2] http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/10/28/in-china-theres-not-one-city-sans-terrifying-stretches-of-empty-houses/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/10/28/in-china-the...
tn13 13y ago
I suspect that the whole Bitcoin thingy is a Chinese conspiracy.
- gbog 13y ago
  Then it would have been clever and borderline perverse to use a Japanese disguise for the creation of bitcoin. Anyway, I think the mystery around bitcoin I'd very captivating a story but probably the answer is more simple than these conspiracy theories, and I was surprised the day I read pg himself give credit to them.
gbog 13y ago
One reason for Chinese government to dislike bitcoin, and it is probably the same reason for Chinese individuals to be interested in it: bitcoins make it very easy to hide cash in your pocket at the customs. People may not realise it but the big issue for many Chinese or foreigner earning money in China is to get it out of the country. The contemporary art market is in fact fueled by this escaping money, because it is easy to under evaluate a piece of paper with two strikes on it, but recently there is a crackdown against that and experts are checking luggages. Bitcoin might be a much better alternative.

56 points by peter123 13y ago

So, I own investment real estate that I wouldn't mind selling for bitcoins. Is there a good place to find buyers who want to pay with Bitcoin?

r3m6 13y ago
Why would you care about in which currency you are paid?
- dllthomas 13y ago
  Cost of conversion would be a potential reason.
  - creativeone 13y ago
    Right, if there are supposedly buyers from abroad who want to buy, we can save money in currency conversions and transfers across borders.
    - dllthomas 13y ago
      Doesn't even have to be "from abroad" - if a buyer has a stack of bitcoins and I want a stack of bitcoins, going through an exchange is going to be expensive given the pretty broad spreads (if there's even the necessary liquidity).
- GigabyteCoin 13y ago
  It's not easy to buy $500,000 worth of bitcoins on the open market at "current value".
  - nwzpaperman 13y ago
    +1 No market depth I expect the Chinese to expand support of cryptocurrencies to strengthen their geo-political position through a peaceful strategy like this. All other financial strategies involve interfacing with legacy financial warehouses and inventory systems which limit their leverage.
  - TomGullen 13y ago
    Someone bought ~$1mm on gox a few days ago without too much trouble I think
    - GigabyteCoin 13y ago
      They did, but it sparked a frenzy of buying shortly afterwards...
travisp 13y ago
Most people, for good reason, use an escrow agent when buying and selling real estate (at least here in the US). As a buyer, I would be doubly uncertain about directly transferring someone Bitcoin since it's at least as irreversible as a processed wire, and probably harder to have good legal recourse for. If you can find someone who would do escrow with Bitcoin, you'd probably have better luck.
- adestefan 13y ago
  You'll also need to pay any titling, fees, insurance, and taxes in USD.
jamoes 13y ago
Take a look at BitPremier: http://www.bitpremier.com/ http://www.bitpremier.com/. They advertise your high-value good on their site, and then once they pair you up with a buyer they also serve as an escrow agency.

fiatmoney 13y ago

Funnily enough, the real estate market is exempt from most money laundering regulations. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-10/money-laundering-exposed-key-component-housing-bubbles-all-cash-bid http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-10/money-laundering-ex...

im_a_lawyer 13y ago
^ this. The amount of "ultra-luxury" towers going on in my city is way too high. Who the fuck has $800,000 cash? Numbers don't add up.

mfringel 13y ago

28000 CNY/sqm * ~.1 sqm/sqft * .16 USD/CNY = ~$448/sqft. That's coming up on prices in SF, and a little bit more expensive than Boston. I had no idea.

ihsw 13y ago
The Chinese property market/household market is a fickle thing -- a lot of it revolves around speculation. There is a suspicion that there will be a large migration of rural workers to urban regions. And large is an understatement -- everybody is betting everything on it.
- maaku 13y ago
  > a lot of it revolves around speculation Pretty much all of it. People in Shanghai, for example, use properties as a cash-storage mechanism, thinking it more secure than a CD. This is all going to end badly.
- VintageCool 13y ago
  Xi Jinping's third plenum starts tomorrow, and many people believe that they will reform the hukou system, allowing people to sell their property in the country and buy property in the city. That could create a lot of urban homebuyers and encourage more migration to urban areas.

mrb 13y ago

FWIW, China seems to be tacitly approving Bitcoin. State-controlled CCTV has been broadcasting more and more news segments about the currency that are all very favorable and positive(!) A lot of chinese Bitcoin users have reported this stance, eg: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=320260.0 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=320260.0

malandrew 13y ago
We've pretty much seen that no other currency is going to undermine the US dollar. It is the de facto reserve currency for the World. This has only been further cemented by globalization since everyone is now so far in bed with the US via trade that everyone has no choice but to let the US keep racking up a national debt. Questioning that debt and forcing default would be tantamount to economic mutually assured destruction. For China, it knows the Yuan is never going to be a real competitor to the US dollar, since there is even less trust in China, since it has been so willing to manipulate exchange rates with its own currency. AFAICT bitcoin presents the only real existential risk to the US dollar. It's a long long road to get there and it might fail spectacularly or simply become just another currency, but even if there is only 0.1% chance of it upsetting the US dollar, that is 0.1% chance more than any other currency out there. Personally, if this does play out, I see the US to be one of the last countries to get on the Bitcoin wagon and lose out. Our currency is the most fit and we have the least amount to gain in the short term from adopting it. But this does not change the fact that many countries with far less stable currencies and governments that have proven themselves untrustworthy with their monetary policies, where the citizens would flock to a currency like bitcoin once security and usability issues are addressed. I'd say that every country where inflation is over 4% per annum is a candidate for wanting to acquire bitcoins.
- brianwawok 13y ago
  Well if BTC has a .01% chance to replace USD, the Euro has at least a .005% chance to replace the USD
- jafaku 13y ago
  The US is already holding the largest stash of Bitcoins in the world. They seized about 144,000 BTC from Silk Road.

robk 13y ago

I wonder how much of the current BTC price spike is due to new Chinese coming into the market?

jamoes 13y ago
A lot of the current price is because of the Chinese market. If you follow the price surges, usually the exchange BTCChina is the one that starts rising first, followed by the US exchanges. The Genesis Block did a good analysis on the Chinese markets a few weeks ago [1]. I really like the bottom chart in that article, which graphs the price differential between Chinese and US exchanges. [1] http://thegenesisblock.com/bitcoin-climbs-highest-price-since-april-led-cny-movement/ http://thegenesisblock.com/bitcoin-climbs-highest-price-sinc...

mmagin 13y ago

And yet, they still cannot invest in foreign stocks.

maaku 13y ago
Those with money do. (Often through BVI shell companies).

trevelyan 13y ago

The real question is when they start selling real estate to use bitcoin to move their assets outside China where there is greater ROI.

simbolit 13y ago
you realise that if someone is buying real estate, someone needs to be selling it, right?
- xux 13y ago
  there's no shortage of sellers in the Chinese real estate market. It's a bubble.

tokenadult 13y ago

From the article: "The current run-up in the price of Bitcoin is an indicator of the interest in the currency, but is likely largely due to speculation." Reporting by economically literate journalists familiar with the situation in China points out that China's housing market is a bubble.[1][2] The speculation in the current residential housing market in China is because middle-class investors cannot find a better investment vehicle, and because they are making unrealistic assumptions about future demand. What's unrealistic about the demand is that migrant workers moving legally to Chinese cities (as they already move illegally) will not possibly be able to afford current market prices for new housing units in China. There is a huge oversupply of housing that is too expensive for anyone to buy who is in the market for a place to live (as contrasted with being in the market for a speculative investment vehicle). The bubble will have to pop. When the China housing bubble pops, China's whole national economy will be severely stressed, and political instability may erupt. The ability to buy houses with Bitcoin reported in this thread is just one more sign of a bubble housing market in China. [1] http://finance.yahoo.com/news/uncomfortable-truth-chinas-property-market-084546007.html http://finance.yahoo.com/news/uncomfortable-truth-chinas-pro... [2] http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/10/28/in-china-theres-not-one-city-sans-terrifying-stretches-of-empty-houses/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/10/28/in-china-the...

tn13 13y ago

I suspect that the whole Bitcoin thingy is a Chinese conspiracy.

gbog 13y ago
Then it would have been clever and borderline perverse to use a Japanese disguise for the creation of bitcoin. Anyway, I think the mystery around bitcoin I'd very captivating a story but probably the answer is more simple than these conspiracy theories, and I was surprised the day I read pg himself give credit to them.

gbog 13y ago

One reason for Chinese government to dislike bitcoin, and it is probably the same reason for Chinese individuals to be interested in it: bitcoins make it very easy to hide cash in your pocket at the customs. People may not realise it but the big issue for many Chinese or foreigner earning money in China is to get it out of the country. The contemporary art market is in fact fueled by this escaping money, because it is easy to under evaluate a piece of paper with two strikes on it, but recently there is a crackdown against that and experts are checking luggages. Bitcoin might be a much better alternative.