10 ms·
The Whitest Jobs in America
- elwell 13y ago"Farmers" was surprising.
- hudibras 13y agoDigging into the tables, the 96% figure is for management only. 48.9% of "Miscellaneous agricultural workers" are Hispanic or Latino, however.
- igravious 13y agoIs "Land Owners" less surprising?
- bilbo0s 13y agoTrue. It wouldn't surprise me if they were using the term "Farmer" loosely. EDIT: Now that I look closer, they did say "Farmer/Rancher". So I guess that could be taken as a hint that this is not the low end manual guy they are talking about, so much as the landowner.
- randomdata 13y agoFarm labourers are generally not considered farmers. I would not really expect them to deviate from that classification. However, you do not need to own land to be considered a farmer either (i.e. you could rent land to meet the criteria). Though misc. agriculture workers doesn't fall much further behind on the list.
- vacri 13y ago"Groundskeeping workers" was a surprise.
- bilbo0s 13y agoWell that they explained in the article. "...Grounds cleaning/maintenance workers are 44 percent black, but groundskeepers are 90 percent white..." So [I assume] they draw a distinction between the worker and the boss. Also, the Groundskeepers MAY have specialized knowledge. Degrees in botany or business for instance. (Maybe even both???) Not saying they do... just pointing out that we don't know a lot about that profession and so there may be more going on than can be seen from the numbers.
- vacri 13y agoIt just seems a very odd way to describe bosses - as 'workers'. Usually 'workers' refers to the people doing the grunt work. It's a bit like calling middle management "management workers"; techinically correct but not the way people actually reference them. I wonder why they didn't just say 'groundskeepers'? When the revolutionaries say "workers of the world unite", they usually don't mean to include the bosses :)
- jacques_chester 13y agoBefore we jump to theories, has anyone eliminated the null hypothesis? That is: assuming a totally random distribution of individuals into professions, purely by chance, some professions will have curious ratios. The first thing a statistician aims to do is to test the probability that the observed effect is due to chance. A second thing to test is whether the ratios are stable across time. This comment represents 20% of your RDA for nitpicky HN comments.
- daemin 13y agoYeah I was thinking something like that, because as the article said 81% of all workers are white - simplified it means 8/10 are white - and these 33 jobs (out of how many?) have 9/10 ratio - does that really mean discrimination or is this story just a filler hit piece against perceived injustices that don't actually exist?
- llamataboot 13y ago#1) This article was not a "hit piece", more a "isn't this curious?" piece #2) There's already enough statistics out there that show injustice on a much larger scale - pretty much pick any statistic - life expectancy, wealth, employment, incarceration, etc and you'll see rank racial disparities -- in many cases racial disparities that haven't closed over the past 50 years.
- daemin 13y agoWithout knowing how many jobs there are total it doesn't sound fully like a "isn't this curious" piece. At best I'd put it with the "50 weird things about the 80's" type of piece. At worst it could detrimentally affect those professions in the name of progress.
- capnrefsmmat 13y agoI think I'll try testing this statistically, even just as a cute example for Statistics Done Wrong. Thanks for the idea. (If I get interesting results I'll post back here in a few days) edit: I can't replicate the results in their charts using this BLS table: http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm For example, for veterinarians I get 90.7% white, not 96.5%. Am I missing something?
- losethos 13y agoI asked God about racism. He said, "sports" The world is just how God made it. It's nice. God says... C:\TAD\Text\SWIFT.TXT permission to step over this wall; and, the space being so wide between that and the palace, I could easily view it on every side. The outward court is a square of forty feet, and includes two other courts: in the inmost are the royal apartments, which I was very desirous to see, but found it extremely difficult; for the great gates, from one square into another, were but eighteen inches high, and seven inches wide. Now the buildings of the outer court were at least five feet high, and it was imp ---- LOL my brother is a millwright. He said turbines made by Japan have tiny passageways.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- jerf 13y agoAt 43/44 white, that gives us 97.7% white, putting it ahead of the veterinarians, number one in that article. Though this pedantry is useless, since those statistics are for today, and the Presidency extends across centuries. Perhaps the closest proxy we can get is to look at Congress: http://thisnation.com/congress-facts.html http://thisnation.com/congress-facts.html
- mtdewcmu 13y agoOver the past 5 years, U.S. presidents have been 100% black. That's a stunning statistic. :)
- 727374 13y agoI think you mean 100% mixed-race.
- seanmcdirmid 13y agoAlmost all of us are mixed race.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- nyrina 13y agoI'm 1/1024th Spanish, 1023/1024th Danish, for example
- mtdewcmu 13y agoOf course, it depends on how you define race, and one can get very hair-splitting about that. But what's thought of as black or African-American in the US is not unlike mestizo in Latin America -- a blend of varying amounts of two racial backgrounds. The fact that Obama has 50% African and 50% European ancestry probably makes him more "African-American" than if he had 100% African ancestry.
- theorique 13y ago"Misc. Agricultural Workers" is 92% white? So much for the theory that agricultural work is done by illegal migrant workers.
- gph 13y agoIt looks like that data comes from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. I'm going to go ahead and guess that they don't include undocumented workers. A lot of those construction jobs are probably only looking at union work. The author says as much below. I don't know what it's like for electricians or carpenters, but the concrete business has a lot of undocumented workers, especially on non-government jobs. And even when they are somewhat legit they don't typically join the unions or get tagged as 'cement masons' (finishers) even though a lot of the time they do finishing work as well as the general labor.
- randomdata 13y agoWho holds that theory? As a farmer myself, I'm not really surprised at all and it was my immediate thought upon reading the headline. Most farm work is highly skilled, which: a) pushes for higher pay, allowing locals to compete. b) requires skills that will often not be easily obtained by those coming from poorer countries. The jobs that are easily handed to migrant workers are a relatively small segment of the industry, and I would expect a dwindling segment at that. I'll add that it is striking how non-diverse rural areas tend to be. I can probably count on one hand the number of non-white people living in my rural community. That doesn't help with the numbers when hiring from the local worker pool.
- theorique 13y agoI guess it's more of a stereotype. With the higher value / higher skill farming work, as compared to migrant fruit pickers, I am sure the demographics are quite different.
- pogden 13y agoif they're illegal, they pertinent aren't counted in the BLS statistics.
- 13y ago
- rurounijones 13y agoOn the flip-side, I wonder what the "blackest" jobs in America are? (Aside from Olympic level sprinters that is) [EDIT] - Ok, I amend my last bit to "Outside of Professional sports"
- waynecochran 13y agoNBA
- popularopinion 13y agoPlease don't downmod the parent comment for being racist. Before rurounijones' edit, this answer was probably the most accurate. According to Wikipedia, "In 2011, the NBA was composed of 83 percent non-white players, including 78 percent black, four percent Latino, and one percent Asian; 17 percent of the players were white." [1] Furthermore, a 1999 analysis of the top 150 NBA point scorers found that 135 (90%) were Black and 15 (10%) were White. Given that 78% of the US is white and 13% of the US is black, Blacks are substantially over-represented in the NBA. The author also estimated that in order to explain this effect, the mean "athletic quotient" of Blacks must be about 0.87 standard deviations higher than the mean "athletic quotient" of Whites. Furthermore, this athletic superiority is also found in other sports. [2] Very interesting read, if you're reading this far I suggest you look through it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_NBA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_NBA [2] http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/blackathlete.htm http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/blackathlete.htm
- joe_the_user 13y agoI am downmoding the parent because "NBA" isn't a meaningful job category. I mean, given the rarity of professional sports success, one could just as well list "lottery win" as an occupation category.
- omonra 13y agoProfessional basketball player is an occupation. It's concentration of a specific group of people shows that it's exactly not a lottery. You're downvoting it because it doesn't appear to agree with your worldview.
- detcader 13y agoWe should really understand what whiteness actually _is_ if we want to parse these kind of things correctly: http://www.ohio.edu/people/hartleyg/docs/abolishthepoint.pdf http://www.ohio.edu/people/hartleyg/docs/abolishthepoint.pdf
- AndrewKemendo 13y agoGreat point. My father identifies as "white" despite being clearly non-white, however because of an adoptive ancestry does not have a clear picture, thus he took the race of his adoptive parents. I also select "white" on the form because I was brought up thinking that was correct. Only recently have I been selecting "Other" where available.
- biafra 13y agoOn what forms do you have to state your "race" or skin color? Ich have never been asked for it anywhere. I live in Germany.
- nyrina 13y agoKlu Klux Klan entry forms, perhaps?
- gosub 13y agoI suppose anywhere there's an affirmative action policy in place.
- mietek 13y agoLots of official UK government or healthcare forms. Still surprises me every time I see it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_ethnicity_in_the_United_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_ethnicity_in_...
- AndrewKemendo 13y agoSo far for me government and medical forms have been the majority of the forms where it is asked. Funny enough, when I was in Munich, I was denied entry to a bar because I would "cause trouble." My German friend informed me it was basically because I looked Turkish. So in that case, while not on paper, my race was questioned.
- Mikeb85 13y agoOne thing to keep in mind, is different cultures (especially immigrant cultures) have a different idea of what a 'good' job is. Most non-white people would say being a veterinarian is a waste of time, for instance. Having once upon a time done a construction stint, I found it's overwhelmingly white not because it's racist, but because most immigrants don't want to do the job (they'd rather have a service job at the entry level, or an office/business related job at the higher level). Most immigrants and non-whites are more 'aspirational' you could say, they want better, more prestigious jobs than trades. I've noticed going through business school, there's a disproportionate amount of Asians, Indians and Africans (compared to the overall population). Indeed, in Universities in general, you'll see more immigrants than are proportional to the population. I wouldn't be so quick to say it's racism, rather different values. And notice that the 'whitest' jobs are not what society would call 'prestigious'...
- jacalata 13y agoconstruction? In 2010, ~25% of construction workers were Hispanic [0]. You may have been in some kind of statistically anomalous area. [0] - http://www.dol.gov/_sec/media/reports/hispaniclaborforce/ http://www.dol.gov/_sec/media/reports/hispaniclaborforce/
- Mikeb85 13y agoCanada, where we don't have many Hispanic immigrants... The vast majority of non-whites here are Asian or Indian.
- courtf 13y agoRelevant: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/08/21/through-good-times-and-bad-black-unemployment-is-consistently-double-that-of-whites/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/08/21/through-good...
- hudibras 13y agoFYI, the BLS report referenced in the article[1] says that 64% of software developers are white, 74% of computer programmers are white, and 85% of web developers are white. [1]http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsrace2012.pdf http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsrace2012.pdf
- jotm 13y agoAren't these numbers a moot point when you consider that 70 percent of the US is white? There's literally not enough minorities to change those numbers (not significantly at least)... Or am I too tired to thing straight?
- wildgift 13y agoThere's some discussion about this above. If the population is 70% white, then the job categories should be 70% white. 90% white isn't random.
- DanBC 13y agoI'm gently surprised they didn't say what the Blackest jobs in America are. Because that seems like an important part of the comparison.
- joe_the_user 13y agoWell, it seems perhaps telling that you don't mention the most-Hispanic, most-Asian, most-Vietnamese etc. occupations given that these would also hypothetically be points of comparison. The reflex of viewing American race relations as black versus white seems rather deeply engrained. The longer article on race and occupations linked by the main article does go into detail on multiple dimensions of race and employment. I recall it mentions domestic attendant and bus driver as black-dominated occupations.
- ck2 13y agoI was surprised by this. Before I read it, my guess would have been the less a job involved creating or doing anything real (ie. banker, stock trader, financier, etc.) the more "white" it would be. ps. what is a "cost estimator" - do they mean appraiser?
- tzs 13y agoSome of these could be due to training costs. On average in the US, white kids from wealthier families than black kids, and on average white adults have more money than black adults. If the trainee has to pay the training costs for a given job, then it is going to favor whites. For instance, take "aircraft pilots", which the article says are 90% white. A small plane can cost in the neighborhood of $100/hour to rent, and one of the requirements for a commercial license is 250 hours flying as pilot. Add on to that instructor costs, and you need to have a fair bit of money available to even get to the point where piloting can be your job. There are some aviation scholarships, I believe, but they are highly competitive. I believe most students have to come up with the money themselves at least through getting their commercial license. These wealth differences could also indirectly affect some of the jobs on the list. For instance, black people are more likely to live in poor and high crime neighborhoods where gangs are prevalent, and there is a lot of pressure on young people to get involved with the local gang. As a consequence, young black people are probably more likely than young white people to have an arrest record. That could make it harder or impossible to get a private detective license.
- mcv 13y agoI was expecting high end "professional" jobs. Vetinarian fits the bill, I suppose, but I was expecting surgeons and programmers. Instead, there's a lot of heavy industry and manual labor in the list. The note at the bottom says that this could be because some unions are terribly racist, but carpenter? Painter? You don't have to be in a union to work with wood or paint, do you? Or maybe you do. American labor laws are utterly nuts as far as I can tell, and this is probably yet another sign of just how insane they really are.
- uchi 13y agoThe title is misleading. These graphs are of unionized workers. I am an electrician I Chicago. Most non-union work here (construction, carpentry, plumbing, electrical) is done by Mexicans who vastly outnumber us. 9 in 10 of all workers. Hah.
- netcan 13y agoThere are probably a lot of intertwined reasons for these, different for each job category. Culture, racism, geography are the big categories. A lot of job choices are about knowing people who know people who do that job or having family history in that profession. All these interact. So maybe steel unions were racist a generation ago and admitted fewer blacks. Then we have fewer sons and nephews of steel workers and so fewer people likely to go into that profession. There are all sorts of professions that are "Jewish professions." The history of these is both speculative and complicated. You had a cultural tendency towards literacy when this was uncommon. Racism & transience preventing land ownership & farming (most Europeans' job) which lead to urban populations and non land assets. Certain guilds barring Jews girded them into unguilded professions or guilds without these rules. There were competitive advantages from transience (contacts in other places) that encouraged certain professions. Then you get interacting second and third and forth order effects from having one set of grandparents that were actors another set who were merchants, the industries that exist in the place you live (not everyplace has many Jews), etc. Some of these professions might be dominated by some subgroup of white, like descendants of Polish immigrants or late 18th century migrants. There is no reason to expect that the ratio of whites in a certain profession reflect their overall ratio in a country. Professions aren't randomly allocated. IMO, more interesting would be the Blackest, Jewiest professions or some other minority and trying to figure out how that came to be.
- omonra 13y agoI am unhappy with the whole premise of labeling people as white. What do a Polish immigrant laborer, a Jewish professor and a WASP homemaker have in common - oh, they're not black. Let's lump them all together!
- sanskritabelt 13y agoHi, welcome to living in America.
- mathattack 13y agoI'm surprised that so many blue collar jobs are less white than Chief Executives. Interesting example of counter-intuitive data. I suspect that the sample sizes are too big for large differences to be random. That said, there could be other issues like "on the books" versus "off the books" and similar.