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"That's life" what a load... no, that's a corporate job which doesn't give a shit about you. It's not really life. The only reason people put up with it is be

"That's life" what a load... no, that's a corporate job which doesn't give a shit about you. It's not really life. The only reason people put up with it is because they're told "that's life" or "that's just how it is." when that's meaningless bullshit.

acron0 13y ago
This is a prime example of the attitude the author is warning against. This kind of anti-establishment ignorance comes from people with little clue as to how 99% of software is written...
- fleitz 13y ago
  Which is why a small but vocal minority of us prefer not to work in overly structured corporate environments. No one really fucking cares that the implementation of the design is pixel perfect, they care whether it moves the needle whether it matches the design or not. Like anything there is an effective version of 'get shit done' and a cargo cult version, most are the cargo cult version where people are not actually empowered to make decisions. 99% of software is developed in shitty cargo cult conditions, half the world lives on less than $5 a day, I don't care to trend toward the average. If you want to hold up the average as something to strive toward knock yourself out.
  - acron0 13y ago
    There is never an effective version of 'get shit done'.
acron0 13y ago
This is a prime example of the attitude the author is warning against. This kind of anti-establishment ignorance comes from people with little clue as to how 99% of software is written...
acron0 13y ago
This is a prime example of the attitude the author is warning against. This kind of anti-establishment ignorance comes from people with little clue as to how 99% of software is written...
nostrademons 13y ago
Why would you expect a corporate job to give a shit about you? It's not a person (regardless of what the Supreme Court says...), it doesn't have feelings. Your parents love you unconditionally. If you want anyone else to care about you, you have to make it happen through your actions.
- HarryHirsch 13y ago
  Why would you expect a corporate job to give a shit about you? Why would I expect the company to treat me decently? Why do I expect the company to treat me decently? It's because people do not only have rights, they have duties towards their fellow man, that's why! This is a long-standing idea in German political thought - it's called Sozialpflichtigkeit des Eigentums, and it made its way into both the Weimar and present constitution. "Eigentum verpflichtet", it says there. Americans have a hard time understanding this.
  - ForHackernews 13y ago
    > they have duties towards their fellow man, that's why! That's exactly what he's saying. It's a company, not a person. You are not its "fellow man"--because it's not a man. It's a legal structure that exists to generate profit.
    - nostrademons 13y ago
      Yeah. It's not unreasonable to expect your boss to treat you decently, at least if you treat her decently. She's a person, after all. But the corporation as a whole? The corporation is a system. It responds to the environment around it. If it doesn't make the right response (as in one that maximizes its chance of survival), it is replaced by other corporations that do. That right response may be at odds with your interests as a person. You, your boss, your boss's boss, and all your coworkers are part of that system. If they don't take the "right" action (as in, the one that maximizes their chance of survival within the organization), they will be replaced by others who do. If you feel you've been mistreated by this, your only option is to look for a different place in that system where you will be happier. It's a two-way street. It's not just that people should refrain from treating you poorly, it's also that you shouldn't put yourself in a position where you will be treated poorly.
f7t7ft7 13y ago
Or because of the pay and the stability.
RyanZAG 13y ago
Major upvotes to you - ignore these other comments, you're entirely correct. A lot of these mundane jobs do need to be done, but a lot of people enjoy stable mundane jobs. Leave these kinds of jobs to them, they will actually thank you for it. If you're more interesting in accomplishing something, there are far more jobs that really need someone with some skill to come and do them - or, more realistically, find them. I agree completely in the terribleness and lack of will in a statement like "That's life". No it most certainly is not. Life is entirely what you make of it and we are a long, long way from being forced to perform mundane tasks. If you can handle the stress of doing something new instead of doing something mundane - the door is always right over there. Walk through it and find your own path.
- enko 13y ago
  > A lot of these mundane jobs do need to be done, but a lot of people enjoy stable mundane jobs. It took me way too long to accept this. I always thought those people just did not know better, or something. I will never forget the QA department at a previous company and their ~200-step excel-based manual QA procedure. For me, that is basically a nightmare made reality. I tried to talk them into automating it, but they resisted that, almost angrily. They liked stepping through that 200-step spreadsheet. I cannot understand it, at all, but I now accept it. People are different.
  - marrs 13y ago
    It could also be because they thought you were going automate them out of a job. People who aren't in the business of change don't like it as a general rule.
    - enko 13y ago
      I actually took some pains to assure them I was not trying to do that. I offered to teach them the techniques I would use, which would actually have increased their market value. They just would not have a word of it. About 6 months later we were all laid off when the company folded. I now hire spreadsheet testers on odesk for $10/hr. Upskill when you have the chance or die.
7Figures2Commas 13y ago
You clearly glossed over my comment. I wrote: "I would make the point that a lot of software jobs are "shitty" in the context of what many expect to find when they decide to become a developer. And that's life." It is easy to develop unrealistic expectations and romanticized notions about a lot of things. That is life. Tech companies aren't forcing employees to perform "mundane" tasks (fix bugs, refactor code, etc.) in air-conditioned offices in exchange for $xxx,xxx/year in salary plus benefits and perks the vast majority of American workers don't receive. If you want something different, there are of course many other options. But here's an inconvenient truth: if you think running your own show (freelancing or building a business) is eight to twelve hours a day of fun and intellectual stimulation, you are probably going to be very disappointed when you're your own boss as well. If anything, "doing your own thing" is even more romanticized than working at Google, Facebook or [insert hot startup name here].
- AsymetricCom 13y ago
  I agree with you but your conceptualization doesn't explain why people should put up with suffering just because they've seen suffering and are used to suffering. That's not logical. There's no reason to go in depth unless you can actually present an argument based on necessity or some kind of platform that would explain it other than "people put up with it".
  - aidenn0 13y ago
    How about "because you're being paid 6 figures to do it and you could be getting paid $25k for something a lot more shitty"
    - keithnoizu 13y ago
      Bah, it's a soul sucking reason. I quite my microsoft job to go bum around in SE asia while my SO finishes her TOEFL master degree. My startups annual revenue is only like 60k and I have two developers, an assistant, content guy and a designer on the payroll part time but I'll take my 100k less a year salary out here versus doing boring crap back at Microsoft any day.

acron0 13y ago

This is a prime example of the attitude the author is warning against. This kind of anti-establishment ignorance comes from people with little clue as to how 99% of software is written...

fleitz 13y ago
Which is why a small but vocal minority of us prefer not to work in overly structured corporate environments. No one really fucking cares that the implementation of the design is pixel perfect, they care whether it moves the needle whether it matches the design or not. Like anything there is an effective version of 'get shit done' and a cargo cult version, most are the cargo cult version where people are not actually empowered to make decisions. 99% of software is developed in shitty cargo cult conditions, half the world lives on less than $5 a day, I don't care to trend toward the average. If you want to hold up the average as something to strive toward knock yourself out.
- acron0 13y ago
  There is never an effective version of 'get shit done'.

acron0 13y ago

This is a prime example of the attitude the author is warning against. This kind of anti-establishment ignorance comes from people with little clue as to how 99% of software is written...

acron0 13y ago

This is a prime example of the attitude the author is warning against. This kind of anti-establishment ignorance comes from people with little clue as to how 99% of software is written...

nostrademons 13y ago

Why would you expect a corporate job to give a shit about you? It's not a person (regardless of what the Supreme Court says...), it doesn't have feelings. Your parents love you unconditionally. If you want anyone else to care about you, you have to make it happen through your actions.

HarryHirsch 13y ago
Why would you expect a corporate job to give a shit about you? Why would I expect the company to treat me decently? Why do I expect the company to treat me decently? It's because people do not only have rights, they have duties towards their fellow man, that's why! This is a long-standing idea in German political thought - it's called Sozialpflichtigkeit des Eigentums, and it made its way into both the Weimar and present constitution. "Eigentum verpflichtet", it says there. Americans have a hard time understanding this.
- ForHackernews 13y ago
  > they have duties towards their fellow man, that's why! That's exactly what he's saying. It's a company, not a person. You are not its "fellow man"--because it's not a man. It's a legal structure that exists to generate profit.
  - nostrademons 13y ago
    Yeah. It's not unreasonable to expect your boss to treat you decently, at least if you treat her decently. She's a person, after all. But the corporation as a whole? The corporation is a system. It responds to the environment around it. If it doesn't make the right response (as in one that maximizes its chance of survival), it is replaced by other corporations that do. That right response may be at odds with your interests as a person. You, your boss, your boss's boss, and all your coworkers are part of that system. If they don't take the "right" action (as in, the one that maximizes their chance of survival within the organization), they will be replaced by others who do. If you feel you've been mistreated by this, your only option is to look for a different place in that system where you will be happier. It's a two-way street. It's not just that people should refrain from treating you poorly, it's also that you shouldn't put yourself in a position where you will be treated poorly.

f7t7ft7 13y ago

Or because of the pay and the stability.

RyanZAG 13y ago

Major upvotes to you - ignore these other comments, you're entirely correct. A lot of these mundane jobs do need to be done, but a lot of people enjoy stable mundane jobs. Leave these kinds of jobs to them, they will actually thank you for it. If you're more interesting in accomplishing something, there are far more jobs that really need someone with some skill to come and do them - or, more realistically, find them. I agree completely in the terribleness and lack of will in a statement like "That's life". No it most certainly is not. Life is entirely what you make of it and we are a long, long way from being forced to perform mundane tasks. If you can handle the stress of doing something new instead of doing something mundane - the door is always right over there. Walk through it and find your own path.

enko 13y ago
> A lot of these mundane jobs do need to be done, but a lot of people enjoy stable mundane jobs. It took me way too long to accept this. I always thought those people just did not know better, or something. I will never forget the QA department at a previous company and their ~200-step excel-based manual QA procedure. For me, that is basically a nightmare made reality. I tried to talk them into automating it, but they resisted that, almost angrily. They liked stepping through that 200-step spreadsheet. I cannot understand it, at all, but I now accept it. People are different.
- marrs 13y ago
  It could also be because they thought you were going automate them out of a job. People who aren't in the business of change don't like it as a general rule.
  - enko 13y ago
    I actually took some pains to assure them I was not trying to do that. I offered to teach them the techniques I would use, which would actually have increased their market value. They just would not have a word of it. About 6 months later we were all laid off when the company folded. I now hire spreadsheet testers on odesk for $10/hr. Upskill when you have the chance or die.

7Figures2Commas 13y ago

You clearly glossed over my comment. I wrote: "I would make the point that a lot of software jobs are "shitty" in the context of what many expect to find when they decide to become a developer. And that's life." It is easy to develop unrealistic expectations and romanticized notions about a lot of things. That is life. Tech companies aren't forcing employees to perform "mundane" tasks (fix bugs, refactor code, etc.) in air-conditioned offices in exchange for $xxx,xxx/year in salary plus benefits and perks the vast majority of American workers don't receive. If you want something different, there are of course many other options. But here's an inconvenient truth: if you think running your own show (freelancing or building a business) is eight to twelve hours a day of fun and intellectual stimulation, you are probably going to be very disappointed when you're your own boss as well. If anything, "doing your own thing" is even more romanticized than working at Google, Facebook or [insert hot startup name here].

AsymetricCom 13y ago
I agree with you but your conceptualization doesn't explain why people should put up with suffering just because they've seen suffering and are used to suffering. That's not logical. There's no reason to go in depth unless you can actually present an argument based on necessity or some kind of platform that would explain it other than "people put up with it".
- aidenn0 13y ago
  How about "because you're being paid 6 figures to do it and you could be getting paid $25k for something a lot more shitty"
  - keithnoizu 13y ago
    Bah, it's a soul sucking reason. I quite my microsoft job to go bum around in SE asia while my SO finishes her TOEFL master degree. My startups annual revenue is only like 60k and I have two developers, an assistant, content guy and a designer on the payroll part time but I'll take my 100k less a year salary out here versus doing boring crap back at Microsoft any day.