20 ms·

Surface Pro 2

313 points by kposehn 13y ago

steele 13y ago
I'm migrating from a 2011 Macbook Air to a Surface Pro w/ type cover and am thusfar enjoying the experience. Battery life and performance for most of my setup is adequate; battery life is actually better than the air, but to be fair the air had less memory and often has 3+ JVM procs going. Type cover 2 is adequate for development, touch cover 2 does not seem click with me. The biggest shift is really trying to move into Windows for fun-dev (as opposed to corporate-dev). I miss spaces and still feel a gap between navigating iterm2 against darwin and conemu against powershell. Chocolatey serves the purpose of homebrew very, very well. The Metro/Modern UI / Desktop schism for multi-tasking needs a expectations check... basically you are in one or the other experience, and AFAIK you cannot split-screen a Metro App and Desktop App. Oh, and calibration of pen in the corners still feel off even after the 130/272 pt calibration task which gets ultimately ignored by wacom feel drivers. Edit: Tomb Raider & Saints Row 3 run at playable framerates in low settings when in battery mode (as opposed to charging mode); this is important if gaming is an important data point to you. When people have been discussing gaming performance, I think reviewers have been tethered to an outlet, which probably is more generous with allocating hardware to games. The one USB slot and Windows 8 were fine w/ third party xbox 360 controller bluetooth dongles after installing official drivers. snes8x (the metro app version of snes9x) makes for a fun plane ride. :) OH, and audio coming out of the surface pro is surprisingly good for an ultraportable. As a tablet, the weight balance in portrait mode feels off but web browsing is pretty fantastic in portrait. On some sites that aggressively optimize for the fold, you might even see some significant white space at the bottom of a page. Kindle books (mobi) not purchased from amazon (e.g. O'Reilly, PragProg, etc) aren't supported in the app. But if you buy ebooks from a great publisher like PragProg you have them in epub and PDF format. For programming books, epub doesn't seem to work out well, even in the popular Freda app. Then again, without the bells/whistles, I've enjoyed the code formatting advantages of reading PDF files. If you're wetware supports it, the bizarre aspect ratio affords for a great PDF book reading experience when reading 2 pages per screen in landscape mode.
Cybernetic 13y ago
I have been interested in the Surface Pro and now SP2 for the reason it appeals to Gabe. I considered buying a Wacom Cintiq for some time now, but it's difficult to justify its price, nearly the same as the SP2, when it's useful only when tethered to a computer, and then it's only useful for painting. With the Surface Pro 2, which is only ~$100 more than a Wacom Cintiq, you get a comparable painting experience, and the additional benefits of having an portable laptop. I think it comes down to what you intend to use if for and from that, how to draw your comparisons and justify whether it is right for you or not.
phaus 13y ago
If Microsoft was smart, they'd put this guy on TV to talk about the Surface instead of showing that incredibly awkward dance video.
- chokolad 13y ago
  That awkward dance video is no longer being shown on TV if I am not mistaken. Here is a new Surface ad http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OqzxB-cSW8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OqzxB-cSW8
  - phaus 13y ago
    That's much better, but still terrible. Its a perfectly forgettable commercial, although I appreciate that they made an attempt to relate to scarf-wearing male fashion designers, an oft neglected demographic.
    - pbhjpbhj 13y ago
      >Its a perfectly forgettable commercial // I don't think it is. I'm no fan-boy either - I use Kubuntu and the only MS think I have is a mouse (the only part of my system that doesn't work, needs replugging half the time to be recognised on startup, only half the time though). The "your favourite apps, next to your favourite apps" didn't make sense to me without checking back - so they allow a fullscreen app next to a phone-mode app. Seems ... interesting.
  - kin 13y ago
    This video is so much better at conveying what the Surface offers. I really did facepalm back when the first ad came out and was not surprised at all by the low sales.
- ZoFreX 13y ago
  Yup. I want one now.
- kmfrk 13y ago
  Given that he's supposed to be a "videogame critic" (egads), that conflict of interest probably wouldn't serve him well with his audience.
RyanZAG 13y ago
He was a huge fan of the Surface 1 when most other people were calling it terrible, so this is not in any way surprising and not an indication that Surface 2 is likely to do any better than Surface 1.
- kposehn 13y ago
  I agree that Mike is not necessarily an indicator of overall market acceptance, but then again he isn't really representative of that. I post these because, despite my own preference for Apple, he represents a very specific demographic of power users and his opinion is very well thought out.
  - phaus 13y ago
    He's more of an average Joe than a power-user. Maybe my definition is wrong, but I think one of the qualifiers for being a power user is knowing how computers work. He admits in the review that he doesn't really know anything about computers unless it has to do with making awesome cartoons. I'd argue that not being a power user is what makes him such a good spokesman for Microsoft.
    - scott_s 13y ago
      I define "power user" by what they do, not what they understand. I consider him a "power user" because his workflow goes beyond the standard browse the web, send email, write some Word documents. He uses a suite of programs specific to his profession and has a workflow situated around those programs and the OS.
- smacktoward 13y ago
  The problem is that while Surface is an amazing device for people like him, there are very very few people like him to sell them to. "A mobile drawing machine I can also play games on" is just not a mass-market demand.
  - ahelwer 13y ago
aggronn 13y ago
I've never thought about the surface's gaming ability outside of the touch games. Being able to plug in an xbox controller and play any compatible game that came out before like 3-4 years ago is amazing.
- AdamTReineke 13y ago
  My Surface Pro (1st gen) runs StarCraft 2 on medium settings pretty well. I'd love to get a Pro 2 and try SC2 on that.
noonespecial 13y ago
Its always frustrating to watch MS build solid devices with real use cases and then seemingly throw it away trying to market them like apple gadgets. Its like watching Charlie Brown try to kick the football.
- mmcclure 13y ago
  If I could upvote this a million times, I would. I don't understand why they think people would rather have an iPad with USB ports than a laptop shaped like a tablet.
- lstamour 13y ago
  In a similar vein, it'd be perfect if it was 13". That would cement the "for creators" aspect of an "iPad Pro". Instead, the 10" form factor means it's just slightly too small to get work done nicely while slightly too big (or too small, depending on your orientation) to read on comfortably. To be clear: if the Sony Vaio Duo 13 was using Wacom as the original did, I'd have bought it instead of the Retina 13 (and in addition to the first Surface).
- rayiner 13y ago
  You can't blame Microsoft's marketing here. The use case for Surface Pro 2 is pen computing. It's real, but it's also niche. To justify the expenditures on the product, Surface has to be more than niche, and that's why it's marketed the way it is.
  - dman 13y ago
    Pen support should translate into large traction in the education market - any reasons why you think this is not happening?
    - sirkneeland 13y ago
      Apple mindshare dominance? (Apple has a very long history in the education space, and now that is paired up with some truly exceptional products. It's a potent mix, at least in theory. In practice, well, you get the LA school district iPad catastrophe...)
scott_karana 13y ago
I really wish Apple would come out with something like this. Imagine partnering with Wacom and making a portable OS X Cintiq...
- adamfeldman 13y ago
  Modbook has been doing this for years. They put a Wacom digitizer on top of a display installed over the bottom half of a Macbook Pro to make a tablet: http://www.modbook.com http://www.modbook.com
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- Samuel_Michon 13y ago
  I’d much rather Apple creates an iPad Pro. For instance, a 13.3" screen @ 3072 by 2048 pixels could fit two regular iPad apps (in portrait mode) alongside each other. Then, apps could be adapted to take advantage of the double screen real estate (looking at you, Photoshop Touch.) As for pressure sensitivity, Apple doesn’t need to build that into iPads, Wacom already sells pens for iPad that have 2048 pressure levels and palm rejection. [1] [1] http://intuoscreativestylus.wacom.com/en/ http://intuoscreativestylus.wacom.com/en/
elwell 13y ago
Can someone give the tl;dr;?
- etchalon 13y ago
  Guy who needs a stylus to draw things about video games loves tablet that has a stylus and can play video games.
- shirro 13y ago
  A guy who doesn't know much about computers and who draws cartoons likes that he can run his old Windows cartoon software on a touch screen laptop PC without a keyboard. It is basically an "I like Surface Pro because it isn't an innovative product" review where the reviewer could have had the same experience with a convertible ultrabook or previous generations of Window tablet computers.
- JTon 13y ago
  TL;DR Overall I’m impressed with the Pro 2. They fixed the big problems I had and didn’t change any of the shit I loved. It’s for creating not consuming.
WhiteDawn 13y ago
Not going to lie, posts like these make me really want one for myself. I've toyed with using a tablet and keyboard combo and doing all my work as a networked thin-client but it is nowhere near the experience of working on a laptop. Having a tablet form factor with the hardware to run everything locally and a physical keyboard is exactly what I am looking for. Sure there is the MacBook air which is an awesome device and has its advantages over the Surface 2, but to use it you need to be in a "deployed" state even if it is just on your lap. With a surface you can quickly check up on email or just relax and then deploy when necessary or convenient. I think the only thing that still would bug me is the touchpad, I haven't used the new keyboard cover but I'm almost certain the touchpad experience is no where close to a MacBook, correct me if I'm wrong because I'd love to hear it. I feel carrying around a bluetooth/usb mouse with it everywhere is going to be required to get a comfortable production experience which would be a nuisance.
- btgeekboy 13y ago
  The touchpad is bad. On the Touch cover, it's that leather-like material that rubs up against the screen normally. On the Type cover, that part's fixed, but the whole thing is roughly the size of two US Quarters put together. The Surface really isn't big enough to have a properly-sized keyboard and touchpad attached.
  - pbsurf 13y ago
    Agreed. Microsoft ought to release a version of the type cover with a pointing stick (aka Trackpoint).
    - WhiteDawn 13y ago
      I agree, more space for the keyboard. Using a Trackpoint on a T400 was suboptimal, but very much improved from a standard windows touchpad and I would be happy settling with one on a Surface.
  - dangrossman 13y ago
    If they hadn't wasted the top row of the keyboard on a bunch of charm buttons that absolutely aren't needed (they're all touch gestures you could do directly on the screen), and volume buttons (when the tablet has physical volume buttons inches away), they would've been able to almost double the surface area of the touchpad. I wish they had.
rayiner 13y ago
The Surface Pro 2 hits two of the biggest weak points of the original design: battery life and heat/noise. The battery life is underwhelming relative to say the MBA 11" (which has a smaller battery), but the Surface Pro 2 takes that from unusably bad to just bad. That said, I don't think it's "good enough." It's not a cheap machine: 8GB/256GB model reviewed by Gabe retails for $1,299. It's got a small screen and a keyboard/touchpad combo that, on an Ultrabook, would be considered absolute trash. I think you have to really love that Wacom pen to justify the Surface Pro 2, and that makes it a pretty niche product. Of course, "niche" can be turned into "market-creating" but with continued mis-steps like underwhelming battery life, it's not clear Microsoft can make the "pen tablet PC" market happen.
- Spearchucker 13y ago
  Funny. I posted below on why I like my Surface so much (Pro 2), but didn't touch on screen size. The screen size is perfect for me. The resolution is phenomenal so I fit more onto it than my old Samsung Series 7, which had 11", same as my MBA. The other problem with 11" is that it's the tipping point for bag size. I like to travel light, and the 10.3" of the Surface fits onto as large a bag as I like to comfortably carry over one shoulder. Luckily price is not a factor for me.
- taude 13y ago
  Agree. I really want to like this, but at about $1450 (with keyboard) for the 8GB/256 model (and 8 GB is minimum I consider for a laptop/ultabook)....I'm not sure I want the Wacom Digitizer that badly. I can still use my Wacom Intuos 3. The screen looks great, though. I'm kind of curious now how the Dell XPS 11 turns out. I'm looking for some alternative to MB Air 11", but with better screen and digitizer pen input/hybrid.
  - sirkneeland 13y ago
    I've had a Dell XPS 12 and been really happy with it, so the XPS 11 is on my list along with the 11" version of the Yoga 1 when that comes out. Oh, and of course the Surface Pro.
sirkneeland 13y ago
I've noticed complaints about the price, but isn't it a good idea for MSFT to avoid completely alienating their OEM partners by leaving room for them to compete with lower cost models? If MSFT were more aggressive in pricing the Surface units then those Chromebook "experiments" (dare I say "hobbies"?) the big OEMs are running might also get more aggressive..
gambiting 13y ago
"The pro 2 comes with 200gb of Skydrive space so I went ahead and created an account. Now I’ve got my phone set up so that every time I take a picture it sends a copy to Skydrive." Just make sure you don't take any naughty pics or you might get your Live account banned.
- TheAnimus 13y ago
  Not happened to me... yet.
- rlu 13y ago
  "So basically, it's OK to store nude images on a private SkyDrive folder, with the exception of any that are clearly about the exploitation of children. Another person during the AMA asked if it was fine to store a family album of pictures that had images of the person and his siblings swimming nude as a kid. The SkyDrive team said, "yes. def allowed."" http://www.neowin.net/news/microsofts-skydrive-reddit-ama-info-on-storing-nude-images-file-size-limits-and-more http://www.neowin.net/news/microsofts-skydrive-reddit-ama-in...
  - alan_cx 13y ago
    Well..... http://abarristerswife.wordpress.com/2013/05/05/exhibit-a-the-child-pornographer/ http://abarristerswife.wordpress.com/2013/05/05/exhibit-a-th... UK, but I can see this happening elsewhere.
  - tveita 13y ago
    So you're going to trust a Reddit post over the official ToS? http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-live/code-of-conduct http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-live/code-of-cond... "You will not upload, post, transmit, transfer, distribute or facilitate distribution of any content (including text, images, sound, video, data, information or software) or otherwise use the service in a way that: - depicts nudity of any sort including full or partial human nudity or nudity in non-human forms such as cartoons, fantasy art or manga." And over past experience? http://www.neowin.net/news/man-says-microsoft-blocked-him-because-of-private-skydrive-folder http://www.neowin.net/news/man-says-microsoft-blocked-him-be...
tlow 13y ago
This is a paid article... FTA: "MS did give me this Surface Pro 2" How is this not getting flagged as spam?
- Scaevolus 13y ago
  Do you think Gruber pays for every new iPhone he reviews? It's industry-standard practice to give devices to reviewers.
  - babesh 13y ago
    I thought he returned the review units instead of getting to keep them?
  - ghshephard 13y ago
    Well, except in the case of Gruber, he buys the iPhones that he keeps. My guess is that Gabe is going to get to keep that Surface-Pro. I'm fine with that, as long as the person doing the writeup makes it clear he was comped gear. The ATP (Marco/Casey/Siracusa) crew recently scored some synology gear, and I, while I'm sure it impacted their objectivity, it was still interesting hearing about how they were using it / configuring it. Anyways - nobody who reads Gruber frequently would suggest he isn't partisan, and he doesn't pretend otherwise.
- themodelplumber 13y ago
  The author has been writing his honest feelings about things for years. He has gained a lot of trust for doing that. It's not spam, it's a product review by a guy who is known for being honest and generally a good person. For artists and designers it's also important to see reviews by actual artists and designers rather than people who may not have been compensated for their reviews and only review published specifications and an hour of light, purposeless mixed use.
TylerE 13y ago
Why is this blantant paid shillitorial on HN? Edit: Anyone downvoting this obviously missed his previous psot where he talks about how MS flew to to NYC and wined and dined him.
- newplagiarist 13y ago
  If you knew anything about Penny-Arcade or how they run their business, you know they're not paid shills. They are a pair of gamers who are very vocal about their loves and hates. They have a history of supporting a wide assortment of devices in their history. In the beginning they used to be ardent supporters of Windows based tech, but now they both sport Mac based products as their work machines. These can clearly be seen in their videos on their Web Series as well. They even have a history of only allowing advertisers whose products they enjoy advertise on their website as well. These adverts are almost always games. They have no problem lampooning 'AAA' games with large advertising budgets if they think the product is crap. However, if they enjoy the product they have no problem supporting it either by doing custom content for the developers, which is put off on a specific section on their website and given the disclaimer that it is content paid for by developers. Mike, in his time as a Surface user, has been very explicit about what he enjoyed about the device and what he didn't enjoy. He has also wrote up blog posts about what Microsoft sent him for free or where they sent him and has given his readers full disclosure about his relationship with Microsoft. I think it's rather silly to lampoon a person, based off of an article of him giving a favourable review of a product that you think is bad or dubious.
- netpenthe 13y ago
  if you read his review of the first Surface, he loved that too, minus the wining and dining
  - Grue3 13y ago
    This actually makes this review even less credible.
sgray11 13y ago
sweet
pmelendez 13y ago
"It’s for creating not consuming." This is exactly the problem with my Ipad 2. It is just the opposite.
mrleinad 13y ago
"I’m not a computer guy. I don’t know about processors and rams or megs."... and you lost me there.
- RyJones 13y ago
  Not sure why. He's clearly stating his expertise - he's a user, not a computer builder, and he wanted to get that out of the way. After that, he relates his experience as a user, which you can choose to inform with his earlier comment about not knowing the technical differences.
- chollida1 13y ago
  Really? That's a strange complaint to have. He admitted he's not a computer guy and then went on to describe why the surface pro 2 is a perfect device for a regular user like himself. That in itself is a refreshing change from the typical technical specification arguments that happen here when new hardware comes out. I get that its easy to throw out quick one liners but I think you'll find you get more out of this site if you actually offer something of substance.
devx 13y ago
Windows 8 is still very schizophrenic. Pick one, either the tablet optimized one, or the desktop. You're going to do a lot of back and forth stuff if you have both on the same device, like devices like Surface Pro are trying to do. Also, on a non-tablet device, Windows 8 actually feels like a downgrade because of the many annoying UI quirks it's throwing at you. You're better off sticking with Windows 7. > Full disclosure MS did give me this Surface Pro 2 since I was so vocal about my love of the first one. So the lesson here is that if you like/pretend to like Microsoft's products in your reviews, they will give you free stuff? That's not an attack on the author here, but on Microsoft. They find out which reviewers praised their devices most, and then send them free stuff, so they're more likely to review positively their future products, too, knowing that they will probably be "rewarded" afterwards, again.
- jsmeaton 13y ago
  I agree with you regarding Windows 7, but having a go at Microsoft for handing out devices for review is non-sensical. Microsoft would send out free devices to all kinds of reviewers - including tech news sites that may or may not review it favourably. Just like Apple does, just like Samsung does, just like Google does. > so they're more likely to review positively their future products, too, knowing that they will probably be "rewarded" afterwards, again. That's a fairly big assumption you're making there - bribing future reviews. As if no one who has written a poor review has been gifted the next generation with the hopes of redeeming themselves.
- jacalata 13y ago
  Yea, so does everyone. John Gruber, to name one, wrote his 5C/5S review on 'reviewer models' of both phones - it's pretty standard, and good reviewers will call it out. You sound a little unfamiliar with the entire system.
  - redler 13y ago
    To be fair, Apple expects the devices sent to reviewers to be returned. I'm pretty sure Gruber has mentioned this more than once on his site or podcast.
codeulike 13y ago
Here's another use case for it: Contractor. I've got a Surface Pro 1, got it secondhand for £600. It runs Visual Studio very well. I'm also running IntelliJ IDEA for Android development. Its light so easy to take when I visit clients. Through the single USB3 port I can connect a USB hub and run VGA, ethernet, mouse and keyboard, so when I'm at a client site I dock into the screens/keyboards they have on site. When I'm at home I dock into my own setup. When I'm in-between I can use the touch cover to get stuff done on the train. The 96GB or so that I have on the SSD is fine for everything I need. Its not like I'm storing DVDs or music on this thing. When I'm in meetings the stylus and one-note is awesome. As for the Surface Pro 2, obviously faster and better battery sounds good. Also the two-stage kickstand would definitely help.
- LaSombra 13y ago
  Which VGA and Ethernet adaptors do you use?
  - rickyc091 13y ago
    I tested the Surface Pro 2 with an Apple mini displayport VGA adapter and it works without any issues.
  - codeulike 13y ago
    I did get the mini display port to work with a generic mac adapter - this one: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002WUVAVE http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002WUVAVE But actually as I was plugging a USB hub in anyway, it was easier to just use a cheap USB to VGA adapter. Similarly, there are loads of cheap USB to Ethernet adapters around. You can get away with USB2 devices, they dont need to be USB3 standard. Basically, its a windows laptop so pretty much any USB thing will work with it. I notice that people make 'usb docking stations' (a docking station that connects via one usb port) but they all have separate power supply. I think there's a gap in the market for an unpowered all-in-one usb docking station, because such things can clearly be made to work.
- teyc 13y ago
  Can it support two screens?
christopherryan 13y ago
GOSPEL ARTIST POSES NUDE! Evon Latrail is the author of a children's book "When Mommy Went to Heaven". She wrote/recorded a few songs; "Lord Bless My Enemies. And, even has a song entitled, "Can't You See (Abortion Is Murder). She went Pro-life after having a abortion! Really???? Now here is a photo of her posing in chocolate as a "Swamp Girl". The word Hypocrite is floating around somewhere. This story has made front page news in the local paper. Go to Google or YouTube and search, Evon Latrail.
hrabago 13y ago
I develop iOS apps on the side using a Mac, but for my day job I use Windows. Because of this, I've never felt the need to buy an iPad (except Gen 1 due to the novelty), nor try to justify getting one for work. However, I've always wanted to get a Surface Pro since the day I learned it can run full Windows apps, and the Surface Pro 2 just makes this desire stronger. I just feel that this tablet is more practical and more functional for me. Like I said, I do have an iPad - a Gen 1 that we got for casual use, and for testing the lone iPad app that I created. It saw a lot more use in its first year than all the years since, and we (wife and I) never got the urge to upgrade. However, we upgrade one or both iPhones each year. I just don't see the iPad as approaching the potential practicality for me the way a Surface Pro does.
wtracy 13y ago
The line that caught my eye was not even about the Surface: "Honestly though if I want to play games I’m going to Steam not the MS app store." Maybe Valve has less to worry about than it thinks?
- tedsanders 13y ago
  I think Valve worries more about MS cutting them out of the loop more than consumers choosing the MS store over the Valve store.
hubtree 13y ago
My wife has the first generation and loves it. She uses it in place of her dead mb. She is finishing her masters degree, so a lot of paper writing and research. To compare it to an ipad or android tablet does a huge disservice to the device.
- r00fus 13y ago
  > To compare it to an ipad or android tablet does a huge disservice to the device. Microsoft deserves the blame. Why they saddled such a powerful device with the same brand as the failed SurfaceRT and undesirable Windows8/Metro is a mystery to me. Actually it's not a mystery. It's pure hubris. They thought they could brute-force the market by sheer will.
  - gotrecruit 13y ago
    >They thought they could brute-force the market by sheer will. Not saying i agree entirely with this comment, but they haven't been proven that they can't "brute-force the market by sheer will" as long as they're still in the game. Some would say that's how they won the first OS wars.
DigitalSea 13y ago
My favourite takeaway from this article is: The Surface Pro is a work machine. It is not a tablet for checking your mail and playing angry birds (although it can do that stuff). This is a computer for getting shit done. It’s for creating not consuming. — finally someone gets the Surface. It's not an iPad competitor, it does more than the intentionally limited iPad can do, has options for external storage, external monitors, touch covers, XBOX controllers and more using standard connections like HDMI and USB without requiring a custom propriety cable a la Thunderbolt or the likes. The Surface 2 is going after a different market than the iPad is. Maybe at the beginning Microsoft tried marketing itself in too many directions, but they're finding their feet. The Surface Pro 2 wants to be the iPad of the business and enterprise market, not a device for checking email and playing Angry Birds. Sure it also appeals to other needs as well, but going after the business sector is smart because ultimately that's where the money is. Heck the Surface isn't even a tablet, it's technically an ultraportable. I am thinking of getting one of these as a laptop replacement for coding on plane and train trips. You can't code on an iPad, but you could code on a Surface for sure and run all needed IDE's like Sublime Text and an NGINX server with PHP and or Node.JS.
- eddieh 13y ago
  > The Surface 2 is going after a different market than the iPad is...Heck the Surface isn't even a tablet, it's technically an ultraportable. Yet you keep comparing it to the iPad when you should be comparing it to the MacBook Air which has similar hardware, roughly the same price, the ability to connect external storage, external displays, has USB 3.0, has an SD card slot (on the 13" model). But the MBA has so much more going for it: PCIe based SDD, Intel HD Graphics 5000 (vs 4400 on the SP2), 802.11ac (vs 802.11n on the SP2), Thunderbolt, a "real" full-sized backlit keyboard, a useable trackpad, the ability to run OS X or Windows, and the trump card, 9 to 12 hours battery life (reportedly 15 hours with Mavericks).
  - contergan 13y ago
    I think it's more fitting to compare the Pro 2 to a 11" macbook air. So the SD card slot is out. The better WiFi and graphics capabilities and will make no difference for the majority of use cases. The HD 5000 will perform better for gaming of course, but then again you're on OS X... not really too many games available there compared to Windows. Thunderbolt is nice, but most people will only use it to hook up an external monitor, which you can also do with the Pro 2. The keyboard on the MBA is not full-sized at all and at least the German keyboard layout that Apple provides is a pain in the ass for programming purposes compared to the Windows based layout (though not really a problem with the US layout). The trackpad on the MBA is much better, but the Pro 2 comes with a touch screen and Wacom pen. Don't forget about the great IPS screen on the Pro 2. The MBA's screen is getting kind of pathetic for 2013, I really hope they up it to Retina in the next revision. Battery Life is in my opinion however still the biggest disadvantage of the Pro 2.
pedalpete 13y ago
I'm at my desk 80% of the time, plugged into my 27" monitor, with an external keyboard and mouse, the Surface 2 Pro would be just fine, basically no difference compared to using my Lenovo 12.5" or MB Air 11" (though the Lenovo was significantly cheaper at $700). On the go would be the biggest difference, and though I like the idea of the Surface 2 Pro, Microsoft has yet to convince me that it would be a better device than either of my current machines.
- cpr 13y ago
  Not picking on the parent at all, but there's something that really puzzles me. Why do folks care about a $500 cost difference in the main computing tool that makes their daily bread? Seems like it's a matter of a few hours' worth of work for most of us. (Don't mean to sound arrogant, either.)
  - pedalpete 13y ago
    I'm not sure which $500 cost difference you're referring to? The difference between my Lenovo and my MB Air or the Lenovo and a potential Surface 2 Pro, or other? If you're comparing my Lenovo to my MB Air, the price difference is significant because I prefer my Lenovo, and therefore, the cost of my MB Air isn't the $500, but the full $1100, as the only reason I have it is to package an iOS app occasionally.
  - lisnake 13y ago
    I don't know about that, for me it's like half a month of work :) Not everybody here comes from the first world
etler 13y ago
I'd like to take a step back and recognize that the computer landscape is really good right now. We have 3 major pc options that all provide a very good baseline experience, and fill different niches effectively. It's at the point where if someone asks me for a computer recommendation and they don't have any needs besides the most basic, I wont make them a recommendation because whatever you buy will satisfy your basic needs.
rickyc091 13y ago
Having used the Surface Pro 2 for less than a week, I'm in a love / hate relationship with it. I've been using Macs for the last seven years and as I'm on a Mac as I'm typing up this comment. The good. - I love being able to have this device sit flat on my lap similar to a tablet. - Having a touchscreen on a full fledge PC is pretty darn useful. The Bad. - My qualms are mainly with the Windows 8.1 more than anything. - It seems by default Chrome opens as a tablet app. I downloaded a software, clicked the installer and nothing happens... turns out I had to hit the windows button and get back into desktop mode to give the installer administrative access to install. - Chrome app (desktop mode) in high res DPI is not compatible with touch. Hell, I'm finding a lot of apps aren't. - How I haven't missed the registry... uninstalling an app, doesn't really mean its uninstalled, there's still reminisce of the app lying around. - If you connect your device to skydrive, you have to use the same password you use online to login. WTF? The best part, there's a character limit restriction on the password so you can't even have a complicated one, but why would you? You wouldn't remember it. (Yes there is a pin option to unlock the device, but at times you have to put in your full password). - The UI is not intuitive at all. I gave the device to my friend who primarily uses Windows and he had a hard time with the metro UI. - I rarely find myself using the tablet mode. I almost wish I could disable it... apps by default actually open in the tablet mode... Double click an image, hey it swaps over to the tablet mode. Great... - This sucker attracts fingerprints like no other.... my MBA still looks pristine after 1.5 years... where as I've already gotten three or four light scratches on the Surface by merely placing the device on my table... Despite all the shortcomings, I have to say, I'm still loving the Surface. Now if only Apple would put OS X into the iPad form factor and I'd be sold.
- codeulike 13y ago
  When you double-click an image and it opens that viewer app, that is pretty annoying. You can switch the default viewer for images to be the windows 7 'image preview' app.
carbocation 13y ago
Curious: any advantage to using a (greater than first degree) Runge Kutta [1] in a sim like this instead of Euler's method? [1] = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runge%E2%80%93Kutta_methods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runge%E2%80%93Kutta_methods
Acen 13y ago
Microsoft is weird. I'm part of a company which sells hardware/software/other assorted technology solutions to businesses. That's what we do. We are the technology providers for literally 80% of the businesses in the town we are in. There is no way we can buy a lot of say 10 Surface Pros and resell them without going through one of the three retail stores (and adding another block of GST + general markup). Because of that, we can't on sell them to business, users with money won't use them and they'll get barely anywhere. IPads were originally marketed as fun devices for on-the-go "things", so people were happy to go and buy one for themselves to use personally. Kind of expanded to the point where so many people had them that app developers had the market to go towards businesses. - If the Surface Pro 2 is intended for business at all, it needs to let the people that sell to businesses get their hands on them. /2c
wisty 13y ago
The Surface doesn't have to make money. It would be nice, but I doubt Microsoft really needs it to sell well. I think they really want to pioneer a mobile form factor which works with Windows. They need to have people inside the tent telling their UI people what to do. No-one else is going to take the risk, because it's there's a big danger that other vendors will copy them once they've done the hard yards, and they don't want to risk Microsoft screwing up the interface for Windows 9. Eventually, MS will get there - they'll have a great x86 tablet, which can run Windows and Office. Then the OEMs will copy it, and sell it at a lower price point, keeping Wintel (and the Windows App store) competitive with iOS and Android.
- codeulike 13y ago
  Yeah its a good point. The Surface is like a flagship to show how Windows 8 hardware is supposed to be done properly.
  - madoublet 13y ago
    To me, it looks like Microsoft is setting up Lumia to be the consumer brand and Surface to be the professional, pro-sumer brand.
brusch 13y ago
I am testing a Samsung 700t (pretty much the same form factor) and it's horrible. The keyboard is nice, but the big problem is that it's very unstable. It's always dropping back. Especially if you are trying to use the touch screen. I had to tape the pen into it's closure otherwise it fell off the whole time. When I've tried to update the device to Windows 8.1 the WLAN driver refused to work and I had to update it from another computer. Using it as a tablet is okay, but it's very heavy and big. I hope the Surface Pro is better - but the Samsung is really underwhelming. I'd rather buy a small desktop or a tablet.
gcb1 13y ago
irony times. macbooks are the boring last decade thing that every startup guy (the new Suit) carries around, it doesnt even have touch screens. on the nonprofessional front every kitchen had an ipad. meanwhile creative types buy microsoft hardware and tries to say how it is a machine for creators and not consumers. and jobs is not even cold. (bye karma. but i cant resist a bad taste joke)
- saturdaysaint 13y ago
  Should "creative types" really be pluralized? This is one guy. I know a lot of the best musicians in my area and see a lot of national ones - I almost never see Windows laptops. Let alone a single Surface.
bane 13y ago
I'm absolutely in the market for the Surface Pro 2 at $400-500 (keyboard/case included). I'd have to really think about it at $500-700. I'm totally not interested at the current price point -- it's about 2x what I'd consider paying for it. For obvious reasons, the RT/non-pro/whatever they're calling the bastard ARM version, is of zero interest to me at any price point. It would be a high-end netbook replacement for me (of which I get tremendous usage out of), not a desktop replacement. For the kind of money the SP2 is at, I can get an excellent desktop or a really nice laptop. The touch-screen and stylus support would be a cool enabler, but not so much a differentiation that I'd be willing to part with more than $50-75 premium over a normal tablet.
jolohaga 13y ago
The site is so garish and distracting, the article is difficult to read.
jeroen94704 13y ago
Anyone know if there is a triple monitor (3 external displays, not 2 external + 1 on-board display) solution for the Surface pro? From what I read it doesn't work with the Club3D MST hub, even though it does have a mini displayport connector. And the port replicator solutions I have seen are all limited to 2 external displays. That, and the slightly slow CPU (for development work) are what is keeping me from getting one. Other than that, it is a very interesting and attractive device as an alternative to a high(ish)-end laptop.
codex 13y ago
Sometimes people need to drive. Sometimes they need a boat. Why not combine two into a boat-car? They both have engines. They both have steering wheels. It's perfect!

313 points by kposehn 13y ago

I'm migrating from a 2011 Macbook Air to a Surface Pro w/ type cover and am thusfar enjoying the experience. Battery life and performance for most of my setup is adequate; battery life is actually better than the air, but to be fair the air had less memory and often has 3+ JVM procs going. Type cover 2 is adequate for development, touch cover 2 does not seem click with me. The biggest shift is really trying to move into Windows for fun-dev (as opposed to corporate-dev). I miss spaces and still feel a gap between navigating iterm2 against darwin and conemu against powershell. Chocolatey serves the purpose of homebrew very, very well. The Metro/Modern UI / Desktop schism for multi-tasking needs a expectations check... basically you are in one or the other experience, and AFAIK you cannot split-screen a Metro App and Desktop App. Oh, and calibration of pen in the corners still feel off even after the 130/272 pt calibration task which gets ultimately ignored by wacom feel drivers. Edit: Tomb Raider & Saints Row 3 run at playable framerates in low settings when in battery mode (as opposed to charging mode); this is important if gaming is an important data point to you. When people have been discussing gaming performance, I think reviewers have been tethered to an outlet, which probably is more generous with allocating hardware to games. The one USB slot and Windows 8 were fine w/ third party xbox 360 controller bluetooth dongles after installing official drivers. snes8x (the metro app version of snes9x) makes for a fun plane ride. :) OH, and audio coming out of the surface pro is surprisingly good for an ultraportable. As a tablet, the weight balance in portrait mode feels off but web browsing is pretty fantastic in portrait. On some sites that aggressively optimize for the fold, you might even see some significant white space at the bottom of a page. Kindle books (mobi) not purchased from amazon (e.g. O'Reilly, PragProg, etc) aren't supported in the app. But if you buy ebooks from a great publisher like PragProg you have them in epub and PDF format. For programming books, epub doesn't seem to work out well, even in the popular Freda app. Then again, without the bells/whistles, I've enjoyed the code formatting advantages of reading PDF files. If you're wetware supports it, the bizarre aspect ratio affords for a great PDF book reading experience when reading 2 pages per screen in landscape mode.

Cybernetic 13y ago

I have been interested in the Surface Pro and now SP2 for the reason it appeals to Gabe. I considered buying a Wacom Cintiq for some time now, but it's difficult to justify its price, nearly the same as the SP2, when it's useful only when tethered to a computer, and then it's only useful for painting. With the Surface Pro 2, which is only ~$100 more than a Wacom Cintiq, you get a comparable painting experience, and the additional benefits of having an portable laptop. I think it comes down to what you intend to use if for and from that, how to draw your comparisons and justify whether it is right for you or not.

phaus 13y ago

If Microsoft was smart, they'd put this guy on TV to talk about the Surface instead of showing that incredibly awkward dance video.

chokolad 13y ago
That awkward dance video is no longer being shown on TV if I am not mistaken. Here is a new Surface ad http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OqzxB-cSW8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OqzxB-cSW8
- phaus 13y ago
  That's much better, but still terrible. Its a perfectly forgettable commercial, although I appreciate that they made an attempt to relate to scarf-wearing male fashion designers, an oft neglected demographic.
  - pbhjpbhj 13y ago
    >Its a perfectly forgettable commercial // I don't think it is. I'm no fan-boy either - I use Kubuntu and the only MS think I have is a mouse (the only part of my system that doesn't work, needs replugging half the time to be recognised on startup, only half the time though). The "your favourite apps, next to your favourite apps" didn't make sense to me without checking back - so they allow a fullscreen app next to a phone-mode app. Seems ... interesting.
- kin 13y ago
  This video is so much better at conveying what the Surface offers. I really did facepalm back when the first ad came out and was not surprised at all by the low sales.
ZoFreX 13y ago
Yup. I want one now.
kmfrk 13y ago
Given that he's supposed to be a "videogame critic" (egads), that conflict of interest probably wouldn't serve him well with his audience.

RyanZAG 13y ago

He was a huge fan of the Surface 1 when most other people were calling it terrible, so this is not in any way surprising and not an indication that Surface 2 is likely to do any better than Surface 1.

kposehn 13y ago
I agree that Mike is not necessarily an indicator of overall market acceptance, but then again he isn't really representative of that. I post these because, despite my own preference for Apple, he represents a very specific demographic of power users and his opinion is very well thought out.
- phaus 13y ago
  He's more of an average Joe than a power-user. Maybe my definition is wrong, but I think one of the qualifiers for being a power user is knowing how computers work. He admits in the review that he doesn't really know anything about computers unless it has to do with making awesome cartoons. I'd argue that not being a power user is what makes him such a good spokesman for Microsoft.
  - scott_s 13y ago
    I define "power user" by what they do, not what they understand. I consider him a "power user" because his workflow goes beyond the standard browse the web, send email, write some Word documents. He uses a suite of programs specific to his profession and has a workflow situated around those programs and the OS.
smacktoward 13y ago
The problem is that while Surface is an amazing device for people like him, there are very very few people like him to sell them to. "A mobile drawing machine I can also play games on" is just not a mass-market demand.
- ahelwer 13y ago

aggronn 13y ago

I've never thought about the surface's gaming ability outside of the touch games. Being able to plug in an xbox controller and play any compatible game that came out before like 3-4 years ago is amazing.

AdamTReineke 13y ago
My Surface Pro (1st gen) runs StarCraft 2 on medium settings pretty well. I'd love to get a Pro 2 and try SC2 on that.

noonespecial 13y ago

Its always frustrating to watch MS build solid devices with real use cases and then seemingly throw it away trying to market them like apple gadgets. Its like watching Charlie Brown try to kick the football.

mmcclure 13y ago
If I could upvote this a million times, I would. I don't understand why they think people would rather have an iPad with USB ports than a laptop shaped like a tablet.
lstamour 13y ago
In a similar vein, it'd be perfect if it was 13". That would cement the "for creators" aspect of an "iPad Pro". Instead, the 10" form factor means it's just slightly too small to get work done nicely while slightly too big (or too small, depending on your orientation) to read on comfortably. To be clear: if the Sony Vaio Duo 13 was using Wacom as the original did, I'd have bought it instead of the Retina 13 (and in addition to the first Surface).
rayiner 13y ago
You can't blame Microsoft's marketing here. The use case for Surface Pro 2 is pen computing. It's real, but it's also niche. To justify the expenditures on the product, Surface has to be more than niche, and that's why it's marketed the way it is.
- dman 13y ago
  Pen support should translate into large traction in the education market - any reasons why you think this is not happening?
  - sirkneeland 13y ago
    Apple mindshare dominance? (Apple has a very long history in the education space, and now that is paired up with some truly exceptional products. It's a potent mix, at least in theory. In practice, well, you get the LA school district iPad catastrophe...)

scott_karana 13y ago

I really wish Apple would come out with something like this. Imagine partnering with Wacom and making a portable OS X Cintiq...

adamfeldman 13y ago
Modbook has been doing this for years. They put a Wacom digitizer on top of a display installed over the bottom half of a Macbook Pro to make a tablet: http://www.modbook.com http://www.modbook.com
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
Samuel_Michon 13y ago
I’d much rather Apple creates an iPad Pro. For instance, a 13.3" screen @ 3072 by 2048 pixels could fit two regular iPad apps (in portrait mode) alongside each other. Then, apps could be adapted to take advantage of the double screen real estate (looking at you, Photoshop Touch.) As for pressure sensitivity, Apple doesn’t need to build that into iPads, Wacom already sells pens for iPad that have 2048 pressure levels and palm rejection. [1] [1] http://intuoscreativestylus.wacom.com/en/ http://intuoscreativestylus.wacom.com/en/

elwell 13y ago

Can someone give the tl;dr;?

etchalon 13y ago
Guy who needs a stylus to draw things about video games loves tablet that has a stylus and can play video games.
shirro 13y ago
A guy who doesn't know much about computers and who draws cartoons likes that he can run his old Windows cartoon software on a touch screen laptop PC without a keyboard. It is basically an "I like Surface Pro because it isn't an innovative product" review where the reviewer could have had the same experience with a convertible ultrabook or previous generations of Window tablet computers.
JTon 13y ago
TL;DR Overall I’m impressed with the Pro 2. They fixed the big problems I had and didn’t change any of the shit I loved. It’s for creating not consuming.

WhiteDawn 13y ago

Not going to lie, posts like these make me really want one for myself. I've toyed with using a tablet and keyboard combo and doing all my work as a networked thin-client but it is nowhere near the experience of working on a laptop. Having a tablet form factor with the hardware to run everything locally and a physical keyboard is exactly what I am looking for. Sure there is the MacBook air which is an awesome device and has its advantages over the Surface 2, but to use it you need to be in a "deployed" state even if it is just on your lap. With a surface you can quickly check up on email or just relax and then deploy when necessary or convenient. I think the only thing that still would bug me is the touchpad, I haven't used the new keyboard cover but I'm almost certain the touchpad experience is no where close to a MacBook, correct me if I'm wrong because I'd love to hear it. I feel carrying around a bluetooth/usb mouse with it everywhere is going to be required to get a comfortable production experience which would be a nuisance.

btgeekboy 13y ago
The touchpad is bad. On the Touch cover, it's that leather-like material that rubs up against the screen normally. On the Type cover, that part's fixed, but the whole thing is roughly the size of two US Quarters put together. The Surface really isn't big enough to have a properly-sized keyboard and touchpad attached.
- pbsurf 13y ago
  Agreed. Microsoft ought to release a version of the type cover with a pointing stick (aka Trackpoint).
  - WhiteDawn 13y ago
    I agree, more space for the keyboard. Using a Trackpoint on a T400 was suboptimal, but very much improved from a standard windows touchpad and I would be happy settling with one on a Surface.
- dangrossman 13y ago
  If they hadn't wasted the top row of the keyboard on a bunch of charm buttons that absolutely aren't needed (they're all touch gestures you could do directly on the screen), and volume buttons (when the tablet has physical volume buttons inches away), they would've been able to almost double the surface area of the touchpad. I wish they had.

rayiner 13y ago

The Surface Pro 2 hits two of the biggest weak points of the original design: battery life and heat/noise. The battery life is underwhelming relative to say the MBA 11" (which has a smaller battery), but the Surface Pro 2 takes that from unusably bad to just bad. That said, I don't think it's "good enough." It's not a cheap machine: 8GB/256GB model reviewed by Gabe retails for $1,299. It's got a small screen and a keyboard/touchpad combo that, on an Ultrabook, would be considered absolute trash. I think you have to really love that Wacom pen to justify the Surface Pro 2, and that makes it a pretty niche product. Of course, "niche" can be turned into "market-creating" but with continued mis-steps like underwhelming battery life, it's not clear Microsoft can make the "pen tablet PC" market happen.

Spearchucker 13y ago
Funny. I posted below on why I like my Surface so much (Pro 2), but didn't touch on screen size. The screen size is perfect for me. The resolution is phenomenal so I fit more onto it than my old Samsung Series 7, which had 11", same as my MBA. The other problem with 11" is that it's the tipping point for bag size. I like to travel light, and the 10.3" of the Surface fits onto as large a bag as I like to comfortably carry over one shoulder. Luckily price is not a factor for me.
taude 13y ago
Agree. I really want to like this, but at about $1450 (with keyboard) for the 8GB/256 model (and 8 GB is minimum I consider for a laptop/ultabook)....I'm not sure I want the Wacom Digitizer that badly. I can still use my Wacom Intuos 3. The screen looks great, though. I'm kind of curious now how the Dell XPS 11 turns out. I'm looking for some alternative to MB Air 11", but with better screen and digitizer pen input/hybrid.
- sirkneeland 13y ago
  I've had a Dell XPS 12 and been really happy with it, so the XPS 11 is on my list along with the 11" version of the Yoga 1 when that comes out. Oh, and of course the Surface Pro.

sirkneeland 13y ago

I've noticed complaints about the price, but isn't it a good idea for MSFT to avoid completely alienating their OEM partners by leaving room for them to compete with lower cost models? If MSFT were more aggressive in pricing the Surface units then those Chromebook "experiments" (dare I say "hobbies"?) the big OEMs are running might also get more aggressive..

gambiting 13y ago

"The pro 2 comes with 200gb of Skydrive space so I went ahead and created an account. Now I’ve got my phone set up so that every time I take a picture it sends a copy to Skydrive." Just make sure you don't take any naughty pics or you might get your Live account banned.

TheAnimus 13y ago
Not happened to me... yet.
rlu 13y ago
"So basically, it's OK to store nude images on a private SkyDrive folder, with the exception of any that are clearly about the exploitation of children. Another person during the AMA asked if it was fine to store a family album of pictures that had images of the person and his siblings swimming nude as a kid. The SkyDrive team said, "yes. def allowed."" http://www.neowin.net/news/microsofts-skydrive-reddit-ama-info-on-storing-nude-images-file-size-limits-and-more http://www.neowin.net/news/microsofts-skydrive-reddit-ama-in...
- alan_cx 13y ago
  Well..... http://abarristerswife.wordpress.com/2013/05/05/exhibit-a-the-child-pornographer/ http://abarristerswife.wordpress.com/2013/05/05/exhibit-a-th... UK, but I can see this happening elsewhere.
- tveita 13y ago
  So you're going to trust a Reddit post over the official ToS? http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-live/code-of-conduct http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-live/code-of-cond... "You will not upload, post, transmit, transfer, distribute or facilitate distribution of any content (including text, images, sound, video, data, information or software) or otherwise use the service in a way that: - depicts nudity of any sort including full or partial human nudity or nudity in non-human forms such as cartoons, fantasy art or manga." And over past experience? http://www.neowin.net/news/man-says-microsoft-blocked-him-because-of-private-skydrive-folder http://www.neowin.net/news/man-says-microsoft-blocked-him-be...

tlow 13y ago

This is a paid article... FTA: "MS did give me this Surface Pro 2" How is this not getting flagged as spam?

Scaevolus 13y ago
Do you think Gruber pays for every new iPhone he reviews? It's industry-standard practice to give devices to reviewers.
- babesh 13y ago
  I thought he returned the review units instead of getting to keep them?
- ghshephard 13y ago
  Well, except in the case of Gruber, he buys the iPhones that he keeps. My guess is that Gabe is going to get to keep that Surface-Pro. I'm fine with that, as long as the person doing the writeup makes it clear he was comped gear. The ATP (Marco/Casey/Siracusa) crew recently scored some synology gear, and I, while I'm sure it impacted their objectivity, it was still interesting hearing about how they were using it / configuring it. Anyways - nobody who reads Gruber frequently would suggest he isn't partisan, and he doesn't pretend otherwise.
themodelplumber 13y ago
The author has been writing his honest feelings about things for years. He has gained a lot of trust for doing that. It's not spam, it's a product review by a guy who is known for being honest and generally a good person. For artists and designers it's also important to see reviews by actual artists and designers rather than people who may not have been compensated for their reviews and only review published specifications and an hour of light, purposeless mixed use.

TylerE 13y ago

Why is this blantant paid shillitorial on HN? Edit: Anyone downvoting this obviously missed his previous psot where he talks about how MS flew to to NYC and wined and dined him.

newplagiarist 13y ago
If you knew anything about Penny-Arcade or how they run their business, you know they're not paid shills. They are a pair of gamers who are very vocal about their loves and hates. They have a history of supporting a wide assortment of devices in their history. In the beginning they used to be ardent supporters of Windows based tech, but now they both sport Mac based products as their work machines. These can clearly be seen in their videos on their Web Series as well. They even have a history of only allowing advertisers whose products they enjoy advertise on their website as well. These adverts are almost always games. They have no problem lampooning 'AAA' games with large advertising budgets if they think the product is crap. However, if they enjoy the product they have no problem supporting it either by doing custom content for the developers, which is put off on a specific section on their website and given the disclaimer that it is content paid for by developers. Mike, in his time as a Surface user, has been very explicit about what he enjoyed about the device and what he didn't enjoy. He has also wrote up blog posts about what Microsoft sent him for free or where they sent him and has given his readers full disclosure about his relationship with Microsoft. I think it's rather silly to lampoon a person, based off of an article of him giving a favourable review of a product that you think is bad or dubious.
netpenthe 13y ago
if you read his review of the first Surface, he loved that too, minus the wining and dining
- Grue3 13y ago
  This actually makes this review even less credible.

sgray11 13y ago

sweet

pmelendez 13y ago

"It’s for creating not consuming." This is exactly the problem with my Ipad 2. It is just the opposite.

mrleinad 13y ago

"I’m not a computer guy. I don’t know about processors and rams or megs."... and you lost me there.

RyJones 13y ago
Not sure why. He's clearly stating his expertise - he's a user, not a computer builder, and he wanted to get that out of the way. After that, he relates his experience as a user, which you can choose to inform with his earlier comment about not knowing the technical differences.
chollida1 13y ago
Really? That's a strange complaint to have. He admitted he's not a computer guy and then went on to describe why the surface pro 2 is a perfect device for a regular user like himself. That in itself is a refreshing change from the typical technical specification arguments that happen here when new hardware comes out. I get that its easy to throw out quick one liners but I think you'll find you get more out of this site if you actually offer something of substance.

devx 13y ago

Windows 8 is still very schizophrenic. Pick one, either the tablet optimized one, or the desktop. You're going to do a lot of back and forth stuff if you have both on the same device, like devices like Surface Pro are trying to do. Also, on a non-tablet device, Windows 8 actually feels like a downgrade because of the many annoying UI quirks it's throwing at you. You're better off sticking with Windows 7. > Full disclosure MS did give me this Surface Pro 2 since I was so vocal about my love of the first one. So the lesson here is that if you like/pretend to like Microsoft's products in your reviews, they will give you free stuff? That's not an attack on the author here, but on Microsoft. They find out which reviewers praised their devices most, and then send them free stuff, so they're more likely to review positively their future products, too, knowing that they will probably be "rewarded" afterwards, again.

jsmeaton 13y ago
I agree with you regarding Windows 7, but having a go at Microsoft for handing out devices for review is non-sensical. Microsoft would send out free devices to all kinds of reviewers - including tech news sites that may or may not review it favourably. Just like Apple does, just like Samsung does, just like Google does. > so they're more likely to review positively their future products, too, knowing that they will probably be "rewarded" afterwards, again. That's a fairly big assumption you're making there - bribing future reviews. As if no one who has written a poor review has been gifted the next generation with the hopes of redeeming themselves.
jacalata 13y ago
Yea, so does everyone. John Gruber, to name one, wrote his 5C/5S review on 'reviewer models' of both phones - it's pretty standard, and good reviewers will call it out. You sound a little unfamiliar with the entire system.
- redler 13y ago
  To be fair, Apple expects the devices sent to reviewers to be returned. I'm pretty sure Gruber has mentioned this more than once on his site or podcast.

codeulike 13y ago

Here's another use case for it: Contractor. I've got a Surface Pro 1, got it secondhand for £600. It runs Visual Studio very well. I'm also running IntelliJ IDEA for Android development. Its light so easy to take when I visit clients. Through the single USB3 port I can connect a USB hub and run VGA, ethernet, mouse and keyboard, so when I'm at a client site I dock into the screens/keyboards they have on site. When I'm at home I dock into my own setup. When I'm in-between I can use the touch cover to get stuff done on the train. The 96GB or so that I have on the SSD is fine for everything I need. Its not like I'm storing DVDs or music on this thing. When I'm in meetings the stylus and one-note is awesome. As for the Surface Pro 2, obviously faster and better battery sounds good. Also the two-stage kickstand would definitely help.

LaSombra 13y ago
Which VGA and Ethernet adaptors do you use?
- rickyc091 13y ago
  I tested the Surface Pro 2 with an Apple mini displayport VGA adapter and it works without any issues.
- codeulike 13y ago
  I did get the mini display port to work with a generic mac adapter - this one: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002WUVAVE http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002WUVAVE But actually as I was plugging a USB hub in anyway, it was easier to just use a cheap USB to VGA adapter. Similarly, there are loads of cheap USB to Ethernet adapters around. You can get away with USB2 devices, they dont need to be USB3 standard. Basically, its a windows laptop so pretty much any USB thing will work with it. I notice that people make 'usb docking stations' (a docking station that connects via one usb port) but they all have separate power supply. I think there's a gap in the market for an unpowered all-in-one usb docking station, because such things can clearly be made to work.
teyc 13y ago
Can it support two screens?

christopherryan 13y ago

GOSPEL ARTIST POSES NUDE! Evon Latrail is the author of a children's book "When Mommy Went to Heaven". She wrote/recorded a few songs; "Lord Bless My Enemies. And, even has a song entitled, "Can't You See (Abortion Is Murder). She went Pro-life after having a abortion! Really???? Now here is a photo of her posing in chocolate as a "Swamp Girl". The word Hypocrite is floating around somewhere. This story has made front page news in the local paper. Go to Google or YouTube and search, Evon Latrail.

hrabago 13y ago

I develop iOS apps on the side using a Mac, but for my day job I use Windows. Because of this, I've never felt the need to buy an iPad (except Gen 1 due to the novelty), nor try to justify getting one for work. However, I've always wanted to get a Surface Pro since the day I learned it can run full Windows apps, and the Surface Pro 2 just makes this desire stronger. I just feel that this tablet is more practical and more functional for me. Like I said, I do have an iPad - a Gen 1 that we got for casual use, and for testing the lone iPad app that I created. It saw a lot more use in its first year than all the years since, and we (wife and I) never got the urge to upgrade. However, we upgrade one or both iPhones each year. I just don't see the iPad as approaching the potential practicality for me the way a Surface Pro does.

wtracy 13y ago

The line that caught my eye was not even about the Surface: "Honestly though if I want to play games I’m going to Steam not the MS app store." Maybe Valve has less to worry about than it thinks?

tedsanders 13y ago
I think Valve worries more about MS cutting them out of the loop more than consumers choosing the MS store over the Valve store.

hubtree 13y ago

My wife has the first generation and loves it. She uses it in place of her dead mb. She is finishing her masters degree, so a lot of paper writing and research. To compare it to an ipad or android tablet does a huge disservice to the device.

r00fus 13y ago
> To compare it to an ipad or android tablet does a huge disservice to the device. Microsoft deserves the blame. Why they saddled such a powerful device with the same brand as the failed SurfaceRT and undesirable Windows8/Metro is a mystery to me. Actually it's not a mystery. It's pure hubris. They thought they could brute-force the market by sheer will.
- gotrecruit 13y ago
  >They thought they could brute-force the market by sheer will. Not saying i agree entirely with this comment, but they haven't been proven that they can't "brute-force the market by sheer will" as long as they're still in the game. Some would say that's how they won the first OS wars.

DigitalSea 13y ago

My favourite takeaway from this article is: The Surface Pro is a work machine. It is not a tablet for checking your mail and playing angry birds (although it can do that stuff). This is a computer for getting shit done. It’s for creating not consuming. — finally someone gets the Surface. It's not an iPad competitor, it does more than the intentionally limited iPad can do, has options for external storage, external monitors, touch covers, XBOX controllers and more using standard connections like HDMI and USB without requiring a custom propriety cable a la Thunderbolt or the likes. The Surface 2 is going after a different market than the iPad is. Maybe at the beginning Microsoft tried marketing itself in too many directions, but they're finding their feet. The Surface Pro 2 wants to be the iPad of the business and enterprise market, not a device for checking email and playing Angry Birds. Sure it also appeals to other needs as well, but going after the business sector is smart because ultimately that's where the money is. Heck the Surface isn't even a tablet, it's technically an ultraportable. I am thinking of getting one of these as a laptop replacement for coding on plane and train trips. You can't code on an iPad, but you could code on a Surface for sure and run all needed IDE's like Sublime Text and an NGINX server with PHP and or Node.JS.

eddieh 13y ago
> The Surface 2 is going after a different market than the iPad is...Heck the Surface isn't even a tablet, it's technically an ultraportable. Yet you keep comparing it to the iPad when you should be comparing it to the MacBook Air which has similar hardware, roughly the same price, the ability to connect external storage, external displays, has USB 3.0, has an SD card slot (on the 13" model). But the MBA has so much more going for it: PCIe based SDD, Intel HD Graphics 5000 (vs 4400 on the SP2), 802.11ac (vs 802.11n on the SP2), Thunderbolt, a "real" full-sized backlit keyboard, a useable trackpad, the ability to run OS X or Windows, and the trump card, 9 to 12 hours battery life (reportedly 15 hours with Mavericks).
- contergan 13y ago
  I think it's more fitting to compare the Pro 2 to a 11" macbook air. So the SD card slot is out. The better WiFi and graphics capabilities and will make no difference for the majority of use cases. The HD 5000 will perform better for gaming of course, but then again you're on OS X... not really too many games available there compared to Windows. Thunderbolt is nice, but most people will only use it to hook up an external monitor, which you can also do with the Pro 2. The keyboard on the MBA is not full-sized at all and at least the German keyboard layout that Apple provides is a pain in the ass for programming purposes compared to the Windows based layout (though not really a problem with the US layout). The trackpad on the MBA is much better, but the Pro 2 comes with a touch screen and Wacom pen. Don't forget about the great IPS screen on the Pro 2. The MBA's screen is getting kind of pathetic for 2013, I really hope they up it to Retina in the next revision. Battery Life is in my opinion however still the biggest disadvantage of the Pro 2.

pedalpete 13y ago

I'm at my desk 80% of the time, plugged into my 27" monitor, with an external keyboard and mouse, the Surface 2 Pro would be just fine, basically no difference compared to using my Lenovo 12.5" or MB Air 11" (though the Lenovo was significantly cheaper at $700). On the go would be the biggest difference, and though I like the idea of the Surface 2 Pro, Microsoft has yet to convince me that it would be a better device than either of my current machines.

cpr 13y ago
Not picking on the parent at all, but there's something that really puzzles me. Why do folks care about a $500 cost difference in the main computing tool that makes their daily bread? Seems like it's a matter of a few hours' worth of work for most of us. (Don't mean to sound arrogant, either.)
- pedalpete 13y ago
  I'm not sure which $500 cost difference you're referring to? The difference between my Lenovo and my MB Air or the Lenovo and a potential Surface 2 Pro, or other? If you're comparing my Lenovo to my MB Air, the price difference is significant because I prefer my Lenovo, and therefore, the cost of my MB Air isn't the $500, but the full $1100, as the only reason I have it is to package an iOS app occasionally.
- lisnake 13y ago
  I don't know about that, for me it's like half a month of work :) Not everybody here comes from the first world

etler 13y ago

I'd like to take a step back and recognize that the computer landscape is really good right now. We have 3 major pc options that all provide a very good baseline experience, and fill different niches effectively. It's at the point where if someone asks me for a computer recommendation and they don't have any needs besides the most basic, I wont make them a recommendation because whatever you buy will satisfy your basic needs.

rickyc091 13y ago

Having used the Surface Pro 2 for less than a week, I'm in a love / hate relationship with it. I've been using Macs for the last seven years and as I'm on a Mac as I'm typing up this comment. The good. - I love being able to have this device sit flat on my lap similar to a tablet. - Having a touchscreen on a full fledge PC is pretty darn useful. The Bad. - My qualms are mainly with the Windows 8.1 more than anything. - It seems by default Chrome opens as a tablet app. I downloaded a software, clicked the installer and nothing happens... turns out I had to hit the windows button and get back into desktop mode to give the installer administrative access to install. - Chrome app (desktop mode) in high res DPI is not compatible with touch. Hell, I'm finding a lot of apps aren't. - How I haven't missed the registry... uninstalling an app, doesn't really mean its uninstalled, there's still reminisce of the app lying around. - If you connect your device to skydrive, you have to use the same password you use online to login. WTF? The best part, there's a character limit restriction on the password so you can't even have a complicated one, but why would you? You wouldn't remember it. (Yes there is a pin option to unlock the device, but at times you have to put in your full password). - The UI is not intuitive at all. I gave the device to my friend who primarily uses Windows and he had a hard time with the metro UI. - I rarely find myself using the tablet mode. I almost wish I could disable it... apps by default actually open in the tablet mode... Double click an image, hey it swaps over to the tablet mode. Great... - This sucker attracts fingerprints like no other.... my MBA still looks pristine after 1.5 years... where as I've already gotten three or four light scratches on the Surface by merely placing the device on my table... Despite all the shortcomings, I have to say, I'm still loving the Surface. Now if only Apple would put OS X into the iPad form factor and I'd be sold.

codeulike 13y ago
When you double-click an image and it opens that viewer app, that is pretty annoying. You can switch the default viewer for images to be the windows 7 'image preview' app.

carbocation 13y ago

Curious: any advantage to using a (greater than first degree) Runge Kutta [1] in a sim like this instead of Euler's method? [1] = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runge%E2%80%93Kutta_methods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runge%E2%80%93Kutta_methods

Acen 13y ago

Microsoft is weird. I'm part of a company which sells hardware/software/other assorted technology solutions to businesses. That's what we do. We are the technology providers for literally 80% of the businesses in the town we are in. There is no way we can buy a lot of say 10 Surface Pros and resell them without going through one of the three retail stores (and adding another block of GST + general markup). Because of that, we can't on sell them to business, users with money won't use them and they'll get barely anywhere. IPads were originally marketed as fun devices for on-the-go "things", so people were happy to go and buy one for themselves to use personally. Kind of expanded to the point where so many people had them that app developers had the market to go towards businesses. - If the Surface Pro 2 is intended for business at all, it needs to let the people that sell to businesses get their hands on them. /2c

wisty 13y ago

The Surface doesn't have to make money. It would be nice, but I doubt Microsoft really needs it to sell well. I think they really want to pioneer a mobile form factor which works with Windows. They need to have people inside the tent telling their UI people what to do. No-one else is going to take the risk, because it's there's a big danger that other vendors will copy them once they've done the hard yards, and they don't want to risk Microsoft screwing up the interface for Windows 9. Eventually, MS will get there - they'll have a great x86 tablet, which can run Windows and Office. Then the OEMs will copy it, and sell it at a lower price point, keeping Wintel (and the Windows App store) competitive with iOS and Android.

codeulike 13y ago
Yeah its a good point. The Surface is like a flagship to show how Windows 8 hardware is supposed to be done properly.
- madoublet 13y ago
  To me, it looks like Microsoft is setting up Lumia to be the consumer brand and Surface to be the professional, pro-sumer brand.

brusch 13y ago

I am testing a Samsung 700t (pretty much the same form factor) and it's horrible. The keyboard is nice, but the big problem is that it's very unstable. It's always dropping back. Especially if you are trying to use the touch screen. I had to tape the pen into it's closure otherwise it fell off the whole time. When I've tried to update the device to Windows 8.1 the WLAN driver refused to work and I had to update it from another computer. Using it as a tablet is okay, but it's very heavy and big. I hope the Surface Pro is better - but the Samsung is really underwhelming. I'd rather buy a small desktop or a tablet.

gcb1 13y ago

irony times. macbooks are the boring last decade thing that every startup guy (the new Suit) carries around, it doesnt even have touch screens. on the nonprofessional front every kitchen had an ipad. meanwhile creative types buy microsoft hardware and tries to say how it is a machine for creators and not consumers. and jobs is not even cold. (bye karma. but i cant resist a bad taste joke)

saturdaysaint 13y ago
Should "creative types" really be pluralized? This is one guy. I know a lot of the best musicians in my area and see a lot of national ones - I almost never see Windows laptops. Let alone a single Surface.

bane 13y ago

I'm absolutely in the market for the Surface Pro 2 at $400-500 (keyboard/case included). I'd have to really think about it at $500-700. I'm totally not interested at the current price point -- it's about 2x what I'd consider paying for it. For obvious reasons, the RT/non-pro/whatever they're calling the bastard ARM version, is of zero interest to me at any price point. It would be a high-end netbook replacement for me (of which I get tremendous usage out of), not a desktop replacement. For the kind of money the SP2 is at, I can get an excellent desktop or a really nice laptop. The touch-screen and stylus support would be a cool enabler, but not so much a differentiation that I'd be willing to part with more than $50-75 premium over a normal tablet.

jolohaga 13y ago

The site is so garish and distracting, the article is difficult to read.

jeroen94704 13y ago

Anyone know if there is a triple monitor (3 external displays, not 2 external + 1 on-board display) solution for the Surface pro? From what I read it doesn't work with the Club3D MST hub, even though it does have a mini displayport connector. And the port replicator solutions I have seen are all limited to 2 external displays. That, and the slightly slow CPU (for development work) are what is keeping me from getting one. Other than that, it is a very interesting and attractive device as an alternative to a high(ish)-end laptop.

codex 13y ago

Sometimes people need to drive. Sometimes they need a boat. Why not combine two into a boat-car? They both have engines. They both have steering wheels. It's perfect!