11 ms·

Apple’s WWDC-Closing ‘Fuck You’ to iPhone Developers

228 points by dannyr 17y ago

sachinag 17y ago
The iPhone is a terrible platform for the vast, vast majority of developers. The process of getting on board, promotion, and success is a total black hole. First movers such as ngmoco and Tapulous have done well; people with better apps - for free - have failed. Maaaaaaaybe 3.0 makes it easier for niche plays to work; certainly, as far as I can tell, add-on payments aren't supported in Palm's marketplace. I do think the Apple folks are improving the platform. But they act like jerks. Apple can fuck over iPhone devs, and they do. Frankly, it's what you would expect from them. An abuser doesn't stop beating when you confront him; he stops beating you when you leave.
- jsz0 17y ago
  Or perhaps people really just don't care that much? You'd think if it was so terrible people would not develop for it. The fact it continues to grow and arguably flourish is a pretty good indication there's more good than bad.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
  - ankhmoop 17y ago
    It's an indication of the motivational factor of the promise of money. Every gold rush "success story" sends N more enterprising individuals chasing after the big payout. I've met our payroll for months on iPhone contract work and licensing, but not one of our clients or customers has made back their initial investment. I hear the same from other iPhone developers. Moreover, we've found Apple to be capricious in their regular and seemingly inescapable rejections, absolutely impossible to contact directly for any reason, and in the worst cases, only responsive to bad press. Personally, I wouldn't write another in-house iPhone application for love or money, but I'm happy to capitalize on the gold rush while I focus on other platforms.
- Zev 17y ago
  But they act like jerks. With the exception of the session that is mentioned in this article, I'm going to have to disagree. To counter with my own anecdote in here, I work on a few apps (mac and iphone) and every time I went down to a lab to talk to an engineer directly, I was able to get help and have my problem solved. Issues ranged from bugs in Apple's code (with 10.6, and will be fixed by release) to App Portal/App ID issues, to bugs in my own code.
  - sachinag 17y ago
    http://daringfireball.net/2009/05/diary_of_an_app_store_reviewer http://daringfireball.net/2009/05/diary_of_an_app_store_revi... This wouldn't have gotten the love it did if it didn't ring all-too-true to all-too-many people.
    - GHFigs 17y ago
      Ringing true doesn't make it true. I’ve also learned that many of the problems aren’t intentional: many parts of Apple’s internal infrastructure are overloaded or extremely outdated, and they’re scrambling to keep up with their growth, often ineffectively. One major surprise was when an Apple employee told me that the App Store reviewers are not outsourced: they’re all direct, full-time Apple employees. Many of them work nights and weekends to keep up with the extremely high submission volume, and they’re constantly expanding the staff to keep up with the submission growth. Source? Why, the very same post that Gruber is quoting in this submission.
      - paulhart 17y ago
        My understanding, from a contact within Apple, is that the reviewers are indeed Apple FTEs. It wasn't clear if they were somewhere on the main campus or in one of the satellite buildings, but I was led to believe they are in Cupertino. Certainly some of the stats I was able to get from testers (thanks PinchMedia) suggest the testers have access to the AT&T network in the US. I could probably find IP addresses from Apple's /8 if people wanted to try to validate further.
    - 17y ago
- joubert 17y ago
  And yet, don't iPhone USERS have the best user experience of any (mobile) platform?
  - jonknee 17y ago
    I guess that depends on the user. The user who wanted basic stuff like MMS, multi-tasking and tethering hasn't been getting the best experience.
    - mattmaroon 17y ago
      Or the user who actually uses a phone to make calls.
      - jonknee 17y ago
        Heh, I didn't want to start a opinion war but you have a point. One of the iPhone users I know actually went out and bought another phone to use in his car because he was so sick of dropped calls.
        conquest 17y ago
        I thought the dropped call problems were over until yesterday. I have to turn off 3G in order to make a call. This phone is pathetic when it comes to making calls. My razr was so much better as a phone.
      - quantumhobbit 17y ago
        This has to be somewhat location specific. AT&T seems to have some of the best reception where I usually spend most of my time, the Gulf and East Coasts. The iPhone seems to get as good or better reception than my old Nokia (disclaimer: this was a very old Nokia). Apparently it is terrible on the West Coast. Of course these are isolated data points. I do think that Apple has made a mistake by limiting the iPhone to one carrier, especially one that can arouse strong hatred like AT&T.
      - djehuty 17y ago
- bluefish 17y ago
  Frankly, it's what you would expect from them. An abuser doesn't stop beating when you confront him; he stops beating you when you leave. I'm not an iPhone developer, nor have I ever developed anything for the Mac platform specifically. Based on the stories I've read online it does sound like Apple isn't handling their iPhone app store well, but I do take issue with the part of your comment I've quoted. I'd like some examples about why you would expect to be treated poorly (or as you put it abused) by Apple. Is it only based on their track record with app developers? If so perhaps it's a problem rooted in the iPhone app process itself and not systemic to the whole company, as you imply. I would need more examples of Apple's abusive policies to understand your statement, for now though I'm not going to write off Apple as horrible corporation because some app developers cry foul (to which, according to the blogger's own admission, Apple attempts to promptly respond to and rectify).
  - lacker 17y ago
    Based on the stories I've read online it does sound like Apple isn't handling their iPhone app store well. Those stories are the worst experiences and are not representative of the majority of iPhone development. The Apple app store is handled worlds better than any other phone. No other platform is even usable to the extent that you see people complain about it.
    - TeHCrAzY 17y ago
      Just because you're only hitting me softly, when the other guys are hitting me hard, doesn't mean I shouldn't ask you to stop.
- andrewljohnson 17y ago
  I always respond this way, and I always get scorned here. But, the iPhone platform has worked for us. Updates have been a bit slow, but we feel like we have been rewarded for our work. Some things are tricky and unintuitive, but that's the way it is in any market. Selling a product just isn't easy. You are always fighting against smart people, and there are unknowns. I feel like people shouldn't get into the App Store market thinking that they will make a million dollars their first app. Only a few people can succeed like that at any time. But, if you jump through Apple's hoops, listen to your customers, and try and serve a real need, you can make a living on the iPhone. People expect launching an iPhone app to be like launching a website, which you can do in a single day. They expect to be able to push whatever code they want, and push releases whenever they want. Well, the App Store isn't like that. And while my website is fun and cool, it doesn't make much money. My iPhone app does.
  - gcheong 17y ago
    I think all the developers want is some clear guidelines and transparency into the approval process and some recourse when they feel they have a good argument why their rejected apps should be approved. I think if those two things were in place, most developers would be satisfied. As things stand now, your app is just an update away from rejection by Apple and they don't even have to give you a reason.
    - andrewljohnson 17y ago
      My only answer is, the market has spoken. Apple's process may be kludgy and untransparent at times, but they have the dominant App Store and phone for a reason. Some how they have succeeded in enthralling tons of developers and tons of end users. I can't help think that part of that is that because the process is actually pretty good in the scheme of things. It would be really expensive to deal with every bitchy developer who had a problem, personally. I mean, Google operates the same way and they are great. It's nearly impossible to email anyone for support for any Google product.
      - davidw 17y ago
- symesc 17y ago
  So why stay? Love?
- brooksbp 17y ago
  The floggings will continue until morale improves...
- lacker 17y ago
  The iPhone is a terrible platform for the vast, vast majority of developers. No. You want a terrible platform, you try writing software for the Nokia platform. Or heck, try any other phone platform besides the iPhone. It's not a coincidence more apps are sold for the iPhone than for any other platform. Apple has provided the best user experience and has the most users who are willing to buy apps. They are doing you a great service by allowing third party apps and promoting apps that hit their "best of" lists for free. Just because the experience isn't perfect doesn't mean Apple is "fucking over iPhone devs".
  - timdorr 17y ago
    I wouldn't call a service that's rejected apps seemingly on a reviewer's whim with no recourse or dispute process "not perfect"; I'd call that downright abysmal. I've had one of my apps rejected because I used the an icon incorrectly (it was for submitting a request, but the icon was only supposed to be used for sending messages. huh?). A tiny change in IB and it was accepted a week later. Yet crap like this gets through no problem: http://ralovely.com/downloads/triplog1040.png http://ralovely.com/downloads/triplog1040.png And that's not even a bad case by a long shot. Based on Apple's own numbers, about 1 in 20 app store submissions are being rejected. There's no way to know how many of those are legitimate rejections (I'm willing to bet a lot), but that's a pretty scary number of apps that should be let through that aren't. The changes they need to make to drastically improve the experience for devs are really minor. I don't know why Apple's making them, other than a tradition of insane levels of secrecy in their corporate culture. That or they're just too embarrassed to let people see into their review structure. Either way, something is broken.
    - rimantas 17y ago
      I agree with your first sentence but the point is that application acceptance to AppStore policy does not constitute entire platform. I am curious, why this part of the otherwise very nice platform is so screwed.
  - nuclear_eclipse 17y ago
    > Or heck, try any other phone platform besides the iPhone. Developing applications for the Android platform is an absolutely wonderful process; I can build apps in Eclipse on any platform, plug in my phone via USB, instantly upload the compiled code, and run the app with a full debugger suite in Eclipse allowing me to debug apps as they're running on the phone, with breakpoints, full listing of in-scope variables, and a list of all process threads. And I haven't even had to pay a developer fee! Imagine that... And while I haven't personally put an app on the Market, I've heard that the Market process is really straightforward and simple. And some of the apps I've downloaded have had multiple new versions available in a single week, so it's not slow, lumbering, and full of pitfalls like the App Store process. The coincidence is just that Apple has spent more on marketing and branding for the iPhone than other platforms, and they were the "first" to have an all-in-one smartphone device with a decent UI, but they are by no means the "best" on the market. They just spend a lot of money and resources to get everyone to think they are.
madair 17y ago
Isn't making an NDA for a conference talk about publishing to the app store quite a big fat fuck you too? Seriously, how much more of this Apple-flagellation are you peeps gonna accept?!?? (Yes _flagellation_.)
- heresy 17y ago
  People will accept it while the market exists. The alternatives simply do not have the consumer mindshare that the iPhone does, which is unfortunate.
  - madair 17y ago
    Well, from all I'm hearing, it's not like iPhone is the get-rich-quick scheme that lots of devs were hoping for. I realize some people feel all hip with a iPhone in their pocket, but I don't think the devs really have enough reason to stick with Apple through this behavior. I certainly don't.
    - jstevens85 17y ago
      Here's an interesting article about a four-man game developer working on the iPhone: http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23785 http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23785 "And certainly, we would love to be developing for a Nokia platform if they have solved the same problems as elegantly as Apple has delivered their solution. But the fact is that for the same success as the iPhone has become, you need an unfragmented platform on the hardware level. You need a good SDK." JL: "Include enough base level of hardware. It can't be some software rendering or no hardware rendering chip. And the fragmentation, it creates this awful disparity of the games, so you have to support software rendering and make everything scale to that. Any high end games use the hardware rendering, but that's a lot of cost to make it two times." "On the iPhone, you can actually work as an independent publisher, and you can own your IP. You can publish it because there are no huge challenges. If we're bringing that IP to the mobile space, and if we wanted to self-publish it, we would actually have to build the technology or hire hundreds of hourly wageworkers to port to that mass of handsets. And we can't afford that as an indie. Then we would have to go through a publisher, the publisher would want to own the IP, and then we would be stuck in the same hand-to-mouth loop, the kind of vicious circle that many traditional mobile developers are in. Their only chance is to pitch their next project to the publisher and then work on their mouth opening strategy." As people that previously worked doing 3D on mobile, which was quite a task, how have you found the iPhone hardware in terms of working with it? JL: "I think it's absolutely beautiful to work with in the API and the technical side as well. Because it's a standard API, Open GL ES, it's so easy to work with, I think." "And because the operating system is based on some Unix, even that allows me to deliver all the knowledge that I have. Just pick some code that works in Unix or Linux, and it works on iPhone as well, so mostly, it's much easier. It's one of the easiest platforms that I have ever worked with."
ellyagg 17y ago
That wasn't a middle finger, it was fear.
zacharypinter 17y ago
I have no objection to Apple running an official App Store with strict rules for compliance. I don't even mind that they take a cut of the profits. However, I find it utterly reprehensible that Apple doesn't allow developers to distribute their applications on their own. iPhone owners should be able to install whatever they want on the device they purchased.
- jodrellblank 17y ago
  iPhone owners should be able to install whatever they want on the device they purchased. Why? It's such an entrenched idea, but you don't get to rewrite paragraphs of books, or scenes in films, or suits in a pack of playing cards or the firmware in your alarm clock. The iPhone is sold as is, why should we expect to use it any differently?
  - rbanffy 17y ago
    There is a fundamental difference. It's not like rewriting parts of your book, but about preventing you from using your book as a monitor stand when you no longer want to read it. The iPhone and iPod Touch are, unlike the average alarm clock, single purpose machines implemented on top of general purpose ones. I see many good reasons to want to change the firmware, use your own iPhone on your carrier and pay full price for unlocked units. If it's yours you should be allowed to do anything with it.
    - GHFigs 17y ago
      It's not like rewriting parts of your book, but about preventing you from using your book as a monitor stand when you no longer want to read it. Bad example. Apple does nothing to prevent you from using an iPhone as a monitor stand, doorstop, hammer, frisbee, or whatever else. The limitations that people complain about all have to do with the software, which like the contents of the book, you do not own.
      - ujjwalg 17y ago
        what the hell are you talking about? I make my own notes within a book. A lot of times I even add things I have read from other sources in the book I buy. Once I own the book, I am allowed to do anything with it as long as I am using it for my own personal use.
kevbin 17y ago
"The content of sessions is under NDA, so I can’t tell you what it was about." Without knowing the content, I'm reluctant to criticize the decision not to take questions since I remember one WWDC session where one developer (let's call him "dw") destroyed an AppleScript session with his Q&A ranting.
- joezydeco 17y ago
  I asked a coworker who went to WWDC about this incident, and it went down nothing like Marco said. Yes, Apple engineers skipped the Q&A, but were all available at the foot of the stage after the presentation to take individual (and off-the-record) questions.
paulgb 17y ago
The App Store team simply knew what the questions were going to be like and were unwilling to face them. I haven't been following WWDC very closely, did Apple do something major to piss off developers? Or is Marco referring to general App Store issues?
- loginx 17y ago
  I'll never understand why you have to own a mac in order to develop iPhone apps, then shell out another $99 just to use the SDK. This means that after purchasing their already expensive phone, I need to shell out close to $1,000 just for the privilege of writing apps. I'm in the market for a new phone right now, and I was really strongly considering an iPhone until I realized that those were the restrictions for writing apps. I'm currently thinking of getting an Android phone, but in Canada, the HTC-rebranded android phones have been heavily modified by HTC... what could possibly go wrong!!
  - bonaldi 17y ago
    I'll never understand why you have to own a mac in order to develop iPhone apps It's not difficult to understand: the iPhone is based on a version of OS X, so when Apple came to write the developer tools, they extended the OS X developer tools. These, unsurprisingly, are OS X native. You may not agree with it, but it's not incomprehensible.
    - loginx 17y ago
      Android (linux-based): Linux, Mac & Windows free SDK Palm WebOS (linux-based): Mojo seems to be Linux, Mac & Windows Blackberry: MDS is an Eclipse plugin, so Linux, Mac & Windows Apple and Microsoft are the only ones to lock you onto one platform. Despite all the marketing dollars invested in showing how different Apple and Microsoft are, I see them apply the exact same strategies for the same purposes every single time they get the chance.
dca 17y ago
The iPhone is slick. Its got an amazing UI for a mobile device. The input is clever. Its very shiny. But having had one for about 2 years, 1 year of which it was only about 60% functional due to an "insensitive" touch screen, and having lived with the less than friendly support staff, I'm pretty confident in saying that's about as deep as it goes. Its very shiny. Its designed to look pretty in Walmart and in AT&T stores and in Apple stores. Its designed to have nifty little IMHO useless widgets that impress your friends in 2 minute water cooler conversations. But when it came time for me to finally buy a new phone, there was no way in hell I was buying an iPhone. Thus, this article surprises me in no way. I had no interest in developing for the thing as soon as I read the license agreement, especially after having used it for a while. It would seem to me there's a huge opportunity here for someone else to come in and blow the doors off of them, in terms of developer friendliness, openness, support, price, etc... but in searching for a new phone I didn't see anyone clearly better.
- stanleydrew 17y ago
  Android doesn't do it for you?
- darshan 17y ago
  It would seem to me there's a huge opportunity here for someone else to come in and blow the doors off of them, in terms of developer friendliness, openness, support, price, etc... but in searching for a new phone I didn't see anyone clearly better. Have you not heard of Android? Developer friendliness? Check. Openness? Check. Support? Check. Price? Check. Google is spectacular in all of these regards. Android is open source, and Google is throwing serious weight into making things extremely easy for developers. It's not without its problems, but I give it an 'A' in every area you brought up.
  - dca 17y ago
    You're absolutely right - for the points I explicitly listed Android is probably fine. My problem with the Android was different - I couldn't seem to get my hands on one. Plus I wasn't exactly thrilled with the idea of switching to T-Mobile anyway. Also, I merged a bunch of ideas together and probably rushed that reply. I'm horrible at posting to forums like this because I almost never get up the nerve to do it. Anyway, if Android was more available (i.e. if the O/S was adopted by a major cellphone manufacturer like a Nokia or Motorola across many different models on multiple carriers), and I could have easily got my hands on one, I would have bought that instead. But as far as I know its only available at T-Mobile, and only in the form of the G1, and was only maybe available at this one T-Mobile store that was quite a drive from here. Many other phones are easily available within a very short drive, so that's what I ended up with.
miles 17y ago
Why not link to the original story, instead of blog spam (albeit from a famous blogger)? Trust, hostility, and the human side of Apple http://www.marco.org/122990476 http://www.marco.org/122990476
- danw 17y ago
  Seconded. It's link-jacking and Grubber isn't adding anything to the discussion himself.
danbmil99 17y ago
Apple has always been a bunch of douchebags. In their own way, they are every bit as evil as Msoft was in their heyday. Power corrupts etc. What I can't understand is why there's this tendency to rub people's face in how successful and powerful you are (ie the session as described by OP). It speaks of an underlying insecurity. If you are the alpha dog and know it, you should not be afraid to face your underlings squarely and tell them "hey, I'm alpha dog, I don't need to explain every decision I make". You know, like "I'm the Decider". But that would be too direct and honest for the mamsy-pamsy, passive-aggressive Silicon Valley style of "fuck you", which is something like "Oh, that's nice. What, did you ask me another question? I thought you had left already."
- davidw 17y ago
  > they are every bit as evil as Msoft was in their heyday. A significant portion of the reason why Microsoft dominated is because Apple wanted to control the hardware and the software. Microsoft was more than willing to settle for 'just' the software, running on top of a more or less open hardware platform. The Mac was better, earlier than Windows, and continued to be for a while. But outside of a brief window, you could only buy one from Apple - there was no vendor competition.
shimi 17y ago
If MS would have enforce such a strict policy on Windows, imagine how many stability and security issues would have been solved in an instance. But this is just a pipe dream, there is no way MS would be let to get away with such practices, on the other hand Apple are well with in their right to do so.
- cubicle67 17y ago
  > ... there is no way MS would be let to get away with such practices ... You mean like the Zune or XBox?
  - shimi 17y ago
    Doesn't matter which product,
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
pierattt 17y ago
We've recently submitted an app to the iTunes store and Apple has been nothing but forthcoming and helpful. The review process took the expected 7 days, at which point we got a personal call from an Apple representative who let us know that they weren't going to be able to take the software as-is (the name was too weird). He then offered to bump the app to the top of the queue once we'd made the necessary revisions. Not trying to negate the negative experiences of other developers, but I do think a lot of this is a case of an understandably pissed-off minority.
- pierattt 17y ago
  Oh, funny, Daring Fireball just linked to my developer's account of his experience with this: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2009/06/16/app-store-trend http://daringfireball.net/linked/2009/06/16/app-store-trend
stse 17y ago
The consumer has been screwed so long, regarding mobile phones, that we think it's normal by now. I mean, overlapping networks when wifi is widely available, roaming charges, paying extreme prices per megabyte when sending a text message. If intel would start restricting which OS you could run on there processors, people would go crazy. Microsoft must even provide a IE free version of windows in Europe.

228 points by dannyr 17y ago

The iPhone is a terrible platform for the vast, vast majority of developers. The process of getting on board, promotion, and success is a total black hole. First movers such as ngmoco and Tapulous have done well; people with better apps - for free - have failed. Maaaaaaaybe 3.0 makes it easier for niche plays to work; certainly, as far as I can tell, add-on payments aren't supported in Palm's marketplace. I do think the Apple folks are improving the platform. But they act like jerks. Apple can fuck over iPhone devs, and they do. Frankly, it's what you would expect from them. An abuser doesn't stop beating when you confront him; he stops beating you when you leave.

jsz0 17y ago
Or perhaps people really just don't care that much? You'd think if it was so terrible people would not develop for it. The fact it continues to grow and arguably flourish is a pretty good indication there's more good than bad.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- ankhmoop 17y ago
  It's an indication of the motivational factor of the promise of money. Every gold rush "success story" sends N more enterprising individuals chasing after the big payout. I've met our payroll for months on iPhone contract work and licensing, but not one of our clients or customers has made back their initial investment. I hear the same from other iPhone developers. Moreover, we've found Apple to be capricious in their regular and seemingly inescapable rejections, absolutely impossible to contact directly for any reason, and in the worst cases, only responsive to bad press. Personally, I wouldn't write another in-house iPhone application for love or money, but I'm happy to capitalize on the gold rush while I focus on other platforms.
Zev 17y ago
But they act like jerks. With the exception of the session that is mentioned in this article, I'm going to have to disagree. To counter with my own anecdote in here, I work on a few apps (mac and iphone) and every time I went down to a lab to talk to an engineer directly, I was able to get help and have my problem solved. Issues ranged from bugs in Apple's code (with 10.6, and will be fixed by release) to App Portal/App ID issues, to bugs in my own code.
- sachinag 17y ago
  http://daringfireball.net/2009/05/diary_of_an_app_store_reviewer http://daringfireball.net/2009/05/diary_of_an_app_store_revi... This wouldn't have gotten the love it did if it didn't ring all-too-true to all-too-many people.
  - GHFigs 17y ago
    Ringing true doesn't make it true. I’ve also learned that many of the problems aren’t intentional: many parts of Apple’s internal infrastructure are overloaded or extremely outdated, and they’re scrambling to keep up with their growth, often ineffectively. One major surprise was when an Apple employee told me that the App Store reviewers are not outsourced: they’re all direct, full-time Apple employees. Many of them work nights and weekends to keep up with the extremely high submission volume, and they’re constantly expanding the staff to keep up with the submission growth. Source? Why, the very same post that Gruber is quoting in this submission.
    - paulhart 17y ago
      My understanding, from a contact within Apple, is that the reviewers are indeed Apple FTEs. It wasn't clear if they were somewhere on the main campus or in one of the satellite buildings, but I was led to believe they are in Cupertino. Certainly some of the stats I was able to get from testers (thanks PinchMedia) suggest the testers have access to the AT&T network in the US. I could probably find IP addresses from Apple's /8 if people wanted to try to validate further.
  - 17y ago
joubert 17y ago
And yet, don't iPhone USERS have the best user experience of any (mobile) platform?
- jonknee 17y ago
  I guess that depends on the user. The user who wanted basic stuff like MMS, multi-tasking and tethering hasn't been getting the best experience.
  - mattmaroon 17y ago
    Or the user who actually uses a phone to make calls.
    - jonknee 17y ago
      Heh, I didn't want to start a opinion war but you have a point. One of the iPhone users I know actually went out and bought another phone to use in his car because he was so sick of dropped calls.
      - conquest 17y ago
        I thought the dropped call problems were over until yesterday. I have to turn off 3G in order to make a call. This phone is pathetic when it comes to making calls. My razr was so much better as a phone.
    - quantumhobbit 17y ago
      This has to be somewhat location specific. AT&T seems to have some of the best reception where I usually spend most of my time, the Gulf and East Coasts. The iPhone seems to get as good or better reception than my old Nokia (disclaimer: this was a very old Nokia). Apparently it is terrible on the West Coast. Of course these are isolated data points. I do think that Apple has made a mistake by limiting the iPhone to one carrier, especially one that can arouse strong hatred like AT&T.
    - djehuty 17y ago
bluefish 17y ago
Frankly, it's what you would expect from them. An abuser doesn't stop beating when you confront him; he stops beating you when you leave. I'm not an iPhone developer, nor have I ever developed anything for the Mac platform specifically. Based on the stories I've read online it does sound like Apple isn't handling their iPhone app store well, but I do take issue with the part of your comment I've quoted. I'd like some examples about why you would expect to be treated poorly (or as you put it abused) by Apple. Is it only based on their track record with app developers? If so perhaps it's a problem rooted in the iPhone app process itself and not systemic to the whole company, as you imply. I would need more examples of Apple's abusive policies to understand your statement, for now though I'm not going to write off Apple as horrible corporation because some app developers cry foul (to which, according to the blogger's own admission, Apple attempts to promptly respond to and rectify).
- lacker 17y ago
  Based on the stories I've read online it does sound like Apple isn't handling their iPhone app store well. Those stories are the worst experiences and are not representative of the majority of iPhone development. The Apple app store is handled worlds better than any other phone. No other platform is even usable to the extent that you see people complain about it.
  - TeHCrAzY 17y ago
    Just because you're only hitting me softly, when the other guys are hitting me hard, doesn't mean I shouldn't ask you to stop.
andrewljohnson 17y ago
I always respond this way, and I always get scorned here. But, the iPhone platform has worked for us. Updates have been a bit slow, but we feel like we have been rewarded for our work. Some things are tricky and unintuitive, but that's the way it is in any market. Selling a product just isn't easy. You are always fighting against smart people, and there are unknowns. I feel like people shouldn't get into the App Store market thinking that they will make a million dollars their first app. Only a few people can succeed like that at any time. But, if you jump through Apple's hoops, listen to your customers, and try and serve a real need, you can make a living on the iPhone. People expect launching an iPhone app to be like launching a website, which you can do in a single day. They expect to be able to push whatever code they want, and push releases whenever they want. Well, the App Store isn't like that. And while my website is fun and cool, it doesn't make much money. My iPhone app does.
- gcheong 17y ago
  I think all the developers want is some clear guidelines and transparency into the approval process and some recourse when they feel they have a good argument why their rejected apps should be approved. I think if those two things were in place, most developers would be satisfied. As things stand now, your app is just an update away from rejection by Apple and they don't even have to give you a reason.
  - andrewljohnson 17y ago
    My only answer is, the market has spoken. Apple's process may be kludgy and untransparent at times, but they have the dominant App Store and phone for a reason. Some how they have succeeded in enthralling tons of developers and tons of end users. I can't help think that part of that is that because the process is actually pretty good in the scheme of things. It would be really expensive to deal with every bitchy developer who had a problem, personally. I mean, Google operates the same way and they are great. It's nearly impossible to email anyone for support for any Google product.
    - davidw 17y ago
symesc 17y ago
So why stay? Love?
brooksbp 17y ago
The floggings will continue until morale improves...
lacker 17y ago
The iPhone is a terrible platform for the vast, vast majority of developers. No. You want a terrible platform, you try writing software for the Nokia platform. Or heck, try any other phone platform besides the iPhone. It's not a coincidence more apps are sold for the iPhone than for any other platform. Apple has provided the best user experience and has the most users who are willing to buy apps. They are doing you a great service by allowing third party apps and promoting apps that hit their "best of" lists for free. Just because the experience isn't perfect doesn't mean Apple is "fucking over iPhone devs".
- timdorr 17y ago
  I wouldn't call a service that's rejected apps seemingly on a reviewer's whim with no recourse or dispute process "not perfect"; I'd call that downright abysmal. I've had one of my apps rejected because I used the an icon incorrectly (it was for submitting a request, but the icon was only supposed to be used for sending messages. huh?). A tiny change in IB and it was accepted a week later. Yet crap like this gets through no problem: http://ralovely.com/downloads/triplog1040.png http://ralovely.com/downloads/triplog1040.png And that's not even a bad case by a long shot. Based on Apple's own numbers, about 1 in 20 app store submissions are being rejected. There's no way to know how many of those are legitimate rejections (I'm willing to bet a lot), but that's a pretty scary number of apps that should be let through that aren't. The changes they need to make to drastically improve the experience for devs are really minor. I don't know why Apple's making them, other than a tradition of insane levels of secrecy in their corporate culture. That or they're just too embarrassed to let people see into their review structure. Either way, something is broken.
  - rimantas 17y ago
    I agree with your first sentence but the point is that application acceptance to AppStore policy does not constitute entire platform. I am curious, why this part of the otherwise very nice platform is so screwed.
- nuclear_eclipse 17y ago
  > Or heck, try any other phone platform besides the iPhone. Developing applications for the Android platform is an absolutely wonderful process; I can build apps in Eclipse on any platform, plug in my phone via USB, instantly upload the compiled code, and run the app with a full debugger suite in Eclipse allowing me to debug apps as they're running on the phone, with breakpoints, full listing of in-scope variables, and a list of all process threads. And I haven't even had to pay a developer fee! Imagine that... And while I haven't personally put an app on the Market, I've heard that the Market process is really straightforward and simple. And some of the apps I've downloaded have had multiple new versions available in a single week, so it's not slow, lumbering, and full of pitfalls like the App Store process. The coincidence is just that Apple has spent more on marketing and branding for the iPhone than other platforms, and they were the "first" to have an all-in-one smartphone device with a decent UI, but they are by no means the "best" on the market. They just spend a lot of money and resources to get everyone to think they are.

madair 17y ago

Isn't making an NDA for a conference talk about publishing to the app store quite a big fat fuck you too? Seriously, how much more of this Apple-flagellation are you peeps gonna accept?!?? (Yes _flagellation_.)

heresy 17y ago
People will accept it while the market exists. The alternatives simply do not have the consumer mindshare that the iPhone does, which is unfortunate.
- madair 17y ago
  Well, from all I'm hearing, it's not like iPhone is the get-rich-quick scheme that lots of devs were hoping for. I realize some people feel all hip with a iPhone in their pocket, but I don't think the devs really have enough reason to stick with Apple through this behavior. I certainly don't.
  - jstevens85 17y ago
    Here's an interesting article about a four-man game developer working on the iPhone: http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23785 http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23785 "And certainly, we would love to be developing for a Nokia platform if they have solved the same problems as elegantly as Apple has delivered their solution. But the fact is that for the same success as the iPhone has become, you need an unfragmented platform on the hardware level. You need a good SDK." JL: "Include enough base level of hardware. It can't be some software rendering or no hardware rendering chip. And the fragmentation, it creates this awful disparity of the games, so you have to support software rendering and make everything scale to that. Any high end games use the hardware rendering, but that's a lot of cost to make it two times." "On the iPhone, you can actually work as an independent publisher, and you can own your IP. You can publish it because there are no huge challenges. If we're bringing that IP to the mobile space, and if we wanted to self-publish it, we would actually have to build the technology or hire hundreds of hourly wageworkers to port to that mass of handsets. And we can't afford that as an indie. Then we would have to go through a publisher, the publisher would want to own the IP, and then we would be stuck in the same hand-to-mouth loop, the kind of vicious circle that many traditional mobile developers are in. Their only chance is to pitch their next project to the publisher and then work on their mouth opening strategy." As people that previously worked doing 3D on mobile, which was quite a task, how have you found the iPhone hardware in terms of working with it? JL: "I think it's absolutely beautiful to work with in the API and the technical side as well. Because it's a standard API, Open GL ES, it's so easy to work with, I think." "And because the operating system is based on some Unix, even that allows me to deliver all the knowledge that I have. Just pick some code that works in Unix or Linux, and it works on iPhone as well, so mostly, it's much easier. It's one of the easiest platforms that I have ever worked with."

ellyagg 17y ago

That wasn't a middle finger, it was fear.

zacharypinter 17y ago

I have no objection to Apple running an official App Store with strict rules for compliance. I don't even mind that they take a cut of the profits. However, I find it utterly reprehensible that Apple doesn't allow developers to distribute their applications on their own. iPhone owners should be able to install whatever they want on the device they purchased.

jodrellblank 17y ago
iPhone owners should be able to install whatever they want on the device they purchased. Why? It's such an entrenched idea, but you don't get to rewrite paragraphs of books, or scenes in films, or suits in a pack of playing cards or the firmware in your alarm clock. The iPhone is sold as is, why should we expect to use it any differently?
- rbanffy 17y ago
  There is a fundamental difference. It's not like rewriting parts of your book, but about preventing you from using your book as a monitor stand when you no longer want to read it. The iPhone and iPod Touch are, unlike the average alarm clock, single purpose machines implemented on top of general purpose ones. I see many good reasons to want to change the firmware, use your own iPhone on your carrier and pay full price for unlocked units. If it's yours you should be allowed to do anything with it.
  - GHFigs 17y ago
    It's not like rewriting parts of your book, but about preventing you from using your book as a monitor stand when you no longer want to read it. Bad example. Apple does nothing to prevent you from using an iPhone as a monitor stand, doorstop, hammer, frisbee, or whatever else. The limitations that people complain about all have to do with the software, which like the contents of the book, you do not own.
    - ujjwalg 17y ago
      what the hell are you talking about? I make my own notes within a book. A lot of times I even add things I have read from other sources in the book I buy. Once I own the book, I am allowed to do anything with it as long as I am using it for my own personal use.

kevbin 17y ago

"The content of sessions is under NDA, so I can’t tell you what it was about." Without knowing the content, I'm reluctant to criticize the decision not to take questions since I remember one WWDC session where one developer (let's call him "dw") destroyed an AppleScript session with his Q&A ranting.

joezydeco 17y ago
I asked a coworker who went to WWDC about this incident, and it went down nothing like Marco said. Yes, Apple engineers skipped the Q&A, but were all available at the foot of the stage after the presentation to take individual (and off-the-record) questions.

paulgb 17y ago

The App Store team simply knew what the questions were going to be like and were unwilling to face them. I haven't been following WWDC very closely, did Apple do something major to piss off developers? Or is Marco referring to general App Store issues?

loginx 17y ago
I'll never understand why you have to own a mac in order to develop iPhone apps, then shell out another $99 just to use the SDK. This means that after purchasing their already expensive phone, I need to shell out close to $1,000 just for the privilege of writing apps. I'm in the market for a new phone right now, and I was really strongly considering an iPhone until I realized that those were the restrictions for writing apps. I'm currently thinking of getting an Android phone, but in Canada, the HTC-rebranded android phones have been heavily modified by HTC... what could possibly go wrong!!
- bonaldi 17y ago
  I'll never understand why you have to own a mac in order to develop iPhone apps It's not difficult to understand: the iPhone is based on a version of OS X, so when Apple came to write the developer tools, they extended the OS X developer tools. These, unsurprisingly, are OS X native. You may not agree with it, but it's not incomprehensible.
  - loginx 17y ago
    Android (linux-based): Linux, Mac & Windows free SDK Palm WebOS (linux-based): Mojo seems to be Linux, Mac & Windows Blackberry: MDS is an Eclipse plugin, so Linux, Mac & Windows Apple and Microsoft are the only ones to lock you onto one platform. Despite all the marketing dollars invested in showing how different Apple and Microsoft are, I see them apply the exact same strategies for the same purposes every single time they get the chance.

dca 17y ago

The iPhone is slick. Its got an amazing UI for a mobile device. The input is clever. Its very shiny. But having had one for about 2 years, 1 year of which it was only about 60% functional due to an "insensitive" touch screen, and having lived with the less than friendly support staff, I'm pretty confident in saying that's about as deep as it goes. Its very shiny. Its designed to look pretty in Walmart and in AT&T stores and in Apple stores. Its designed to have nifty little IMHO useless widgets that impress your friends in 2 minute water cooler conversations. But when it came time for me to finally buy a new phone, there was no way in hell I was buying an iPhone. Thus, this article surprises me in no way. I had no interest in developing for the thing as soon as I read the license agreement, especially after having used it for a while. It would seem to me there's a huge opportunity here for someone else to come in and blow the doors off of them, in terms of developer friendliness, openness, support, price, etc... but in searching for a new phone I didn't see anyone clearly better.

stanleydrew 17y ago
Android doesn't do it for you?
darshan 17y ago
It would seem to me there's a huge opportunity here for someone else to come in and blow the doors off of them, in terms of developer friendliness, openness, support, price, etc... but in searching for a new phone I didn't see anyone clearly better. Have you not heard of Android? Developer friendliness? Check. Openness? Check. Support? Check. Price? Check. Google is spectacular in all of these regards. Android is open source, and Google is throwing serious weight into making things extremely easy for developers. It's not without its problems, but I give it an 'A' in every area you brought up.
- dca 17y ago
  You're absolutely right - for the points I explicitly listed Android is probably fine. My problem with the Android was different - I couldn't seem to get my hands on one. Plus I wasn't exactly thrilled with the idea of switching to T-Mobile anyway. Also, I merged a bunch of ideas together and probably rushed that reply. I'm horrible at posting to forums like this because I almost never get up the nerve to do it. Anyway, if Android was more available (i.e. if the O/S was adopted by a major cellphone manufacturer like a Nokia or Motorola across many different models on multiple carriers), and I could have easily got my hands on one, I would have bought that instead. But as far as I know its only available at T-Mobile, and only in the form of the G1, and was only maybe available at this one T-Mobile store that was quite a drive from here. Many other phones are easily available within a very short drive, so that's what I ended up with.

miles 17y ago

Why not link to the original story, instead of blog spam (albeit from a famous blogger)? Trust, hostility, and the human side of Apple http://www.marco.org/122990476 http://www.marco.org/122990476

danw 17y ago
Seconded. It's link-jacking and Grubber isn't adding anything to the discussion himself.

danbmil99 17y ago

Apple has always been a bunch of douchebags. In their own way, they are every bit as evil as Msoft was in their heyday. Power corrupts etc. What I can't understand is why there's this tendency to rub people's face in how successful and powerful you are (ie the session as described by OP). It speaks of an underlying insecurity. If you are the alpha dog and know it, you should not be afraid to face your underlings squarely and tell them "hey, I'm alpha dog, I don't need to explain every decision I make". You know, like "I'm the Decider". But that would be too direct and honest for the mamsy-pamsy, passive-aggressive Silicon Valley style of "fuck you", which is something like "Oh, that's nice. What, did you ask me another question? I thought you had left already."

davidw 17y ago
> they are every bit as evil as Msoft was in their heyday. A significant portion of the reason why Microsoft dominated is because Apple wanted to control the hardware and the software. Microsoft was more than willing to settle for 'just' the software, running on top of a more or less open hardware platform. The Mac was better, earlier than Windows, and continued to be for a while. But outside of a brief window, you could only buy one from Apple - there was no vendor competition.

shimi 17y ago

If MS would have enforce such a strict policy on Windows, imagine how many stability and security issues would have been solved in an instance. But this is just a pipe dream, there is no way MS would be let to get away with such practices, on the other hand Apple are well with in their right to do so.

cubicle67 17y ago
> ... there is no way MS would be let to get away with such practices ... You mean like the Zune or XBox?
- shimi 17y ago
  Doesn't matter which product,
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]

pierattt 17y ago

We've recently submitted an app to the iTunes store and Apple has been nothing but forthcoming and helpful. The review process took the expected 7 days, at which point we got a personal call from an Apple representative who let us know that they weren't going to be able to take the software as-is (the name was too weird). He then offered to bump the app to the top of the queue once we'd made the necessary revisions. Not trying to negate the negative experiences of other developers, but I do think a lot of this is a case of an understandably pissed-off minority.

pierattt 17y ago
Oh, funny, Daring Fireball just linked to my developer's account of his experience with this: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2009/06/16/app-store-trend http://daringfireball.net/linked/2009/06/16/app-store-trend

stse 17y ago

The consumer has been screwed so long, regarding mobile phones, that we think it's normal by now. I mean, overlapping networks when wifi is widely available, roaming charges, paying extreme prices per megabyte when sending a text message. If intel would start restricting which OS you could run on there processors, people would go crazy. Microsoft must even provide a IE free version of windows in Europe.