11 ms·

USB Implementers Forum Says No to Open Source

305 points by p4bl0 13y ago

jrockway 13y ago
Why not just pick a VID and start using it? USB is so well understood at this point that there is no need for anyone to play ball with an "official" organization. (Whoever gets "officially" issued that VID is going to whine when they notice it's already being used for hobbyist purposes anyway, which means that the technique of just picking one will guarantee uniqueness.)
- eksith 13y ago
  I like this idea. If there's some benefactor to the Open Source community (or even if they pass along a collection) for the VID, that could even work. They just need to properly implement the standard and the VID can effectively be the Hoover or Kleenex of VIDs. Edit: On second thought (after I actually read it), this bit... Please immediately cease and desist raising funds to purchase a unique USB VID for the purpose of transferring, reselling or sublicensing PIDs and delete all references to the USB-IF, VIDs and PIDs for transfer, resale or sublicense from your website and other marketing materials. ...rubs me the wrong way on so many levels, I'm tempted to say, the hell with the forum.
  - alcari 13y ago
    Read the article again. That's not the Forum, that's the VTM Group, which handles their marketing and legal concerns. The USB Implementers Forum itself didn't make a statement.
    - eksith 13y ago
      This idea did not sit well with VTM Group, the people serving as the management, PR, legal, and membership and licensing department of the USB Implementers Forum The hands, the mouth and collector of thoughts cannot be separated from a thing and still be called a whole. Besides even the title says, "USB Implementers Forum Says No to Open Source"
      - ryanthejuggler 13y ago
        The article is a second-hand source; the author could be trying to stir something up, or maybe just got a bit too excited. Who knows? The article also says the proposal, among others, "haven’t hit the desk of anyone at the USB Implementers Forum, the people who are actually in charge of designating USB VIDs and PIDs". Doesn't sound like the forum said no to me.
        PhasmaFelis 13y ago
        What is with this bizarre argument that paid legal representation doesn't legally represent their client? By definition, unless the USB Forum directs the VTM Group to retract the C&D, it represents the Forum's position.
      - derefr 13y ago
        > The hands, the mouth and collector of thoughts cannot be separated from a thing and still be called a whole. I don't know about that. Publishing houses are certainly separate from authors, and record labels from musicians.
    - nicksdjohnson 13y ago
      It's signed "Executive Director"; regardless of their internal organisation, it's a statement from USB-IF.
    - weland 13y ago
      As far as I can understand, as with every organization in the world, when the-entity-that-represents-the-marketing-and-legal-concerns of that organization writes a cease and desist, it kind of comes from that organization. The USB IF itself didn't make a statement because they don't make statements on these matters; that's why they hired VTM Group for. Don't underestimate the USB Implementers Forum. Despite its name, it is not an organization of USB users (big and small). They have a direct interest in this matter because: a) Like every organization, they need to have some source of income. Technically, they're a non-profit organization, but they're also the one who issue the VID, and a company giving out PIDs to whoever wants them is eating their "lack of profit". b) Its members who have an interest in consumer devices/end products (i.e. companies that don't sell chips, but devices using chips) tend to be large and slow-moving. The Kickstarter crowd is pecking at their business options. (True story).
    - PhasmaFelis 13y ago
      That's a ridiculous distinction. If you hire someone to represent you, you are responsible for their words and actions on your behalf.
  - buro9 13y ago
    That cease and desist request ticks the boxes for "You are committing a thought crime and are not permitted to have these ideas". Which explains why we (especially) react so strongly to it.
  - spiritplumber 13y ago
    "We will be willing to settle the matter with a trial by combat."
  - Someone 13y ago
    An argument I would make if I we t to court fighting that is that such squatting dilutes the 'USB' brand. Imagine a world where this 'open' approach gains market share. For the consumer, the net result easily could be that USB, which now is highly plug and play, becomes more like the way ISA cards used to be plug and play: you can plug in any device, but to make it work, you need to do some voodoo (oops, there's more than one device with that PID/VID. Please tell me what you plugged in: X, Y, Z, or something I haven't heard of?") Exaggeration? Yes, but not completely untrue, and that's the argument I would make. Whatever you do, you need some entity that prevents multiple manufacturers from using clashing identifiers. That is one of the things the owners of the standard will fight for to maintain, because it is one of the things required to make USB work as well as it does. Yes, it would be nice if they sold individual VID/PID pairs to hobbyists. But I do not see a legal reason why they would have to do so. Anti-competitive? Maybe, but they will argue that there are thousands of individual vendors in the market.
    - caf 13y ago
      The fact that it's so important to prevent multiple manufacturers from using clashing IDs is exactly why it's in their interest to make registering an "official" ID as open and accessible as possible.
    - mdwrigh2 13y ago
      > Imagine a world where this 'open' approach gains market share. For the consumer, the net result easily could be that USB, which now is highly plug and play, becomes more like the way ISA cards used to be plug and play: you can plug in any device, but to make it work, you need to do some voodoo (oops, there's more than one device with that PID/VID. Please tell me what you plugged in: X, Y, Z, or something I haven't heard of?") For the record, this already is pretty common. Lots of keyboards mimic Apple's VID/PID, and tons of controllers use absolutely nonsense VIDs/PIDs (GameStop's mobile controller line, for example).
- ZeroGravitas 13y ago
  They have: "There are a number of ideas to get around VTM Group that include squatting on USB VID 0xF055"
  - StavrosK 13y ago
    Hah, nice VID, easy to remember.
  - qwerty_asdf 13y ago
    Does anybody own these? 0xDEAD 0xBEEF 0x1337 0xFACE 0xF00D 0xABCD ...and so on? Maybe, if they're reserved as unassignable (due to being an inappropriate value for professional, business puposes), then perhaps it's open season on those.
    - nraynaud 13y ago
      I think 0xF055 has circulated too much now (slashdot, hack a day, maker: etc.) So if we there should be squatting it better be on 0xF055. Let's just destroy the strict minimum to achieve our goal (having a unique VID+PID for our proprietary drivers to find the corresponding gadget on the bus).
    - rtkwe 13y ago
      Looks like no: http://www.linux-usb.org/usb.ids http://www.linux-usb.org/usb.ids Though I'm not sure how accurate and complete this list is. Edit the official list is here but they list their VIDs in dec.
    - Amadou 13y ago
      An alternative would be to find one that has been assigned to a now defunct company. Then you'd only have to worry about historical devices and if you are lucky you could come up with a list of those PIDs and exclude them.
  - missing_cipher 13y ago
    For those who missed it, 0xF055 can be read as "FOSS": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open-source_software http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open-source_software
- samworm 13y ago
  The way these things normally work is that you're only allowed to use the name and marks if you're an official licensee. So if you put the USB logo on your marketing and claim to have a "USB Mini" connector in your specifications then you could be in trouble on two fronts: (1) the usb folks can sue you for using their IP and (2) purchasers can claim the product is not "as described" which may given them certain rights dependent upon the location. Not using the official logo shouldn't be a problem in hobby market. Everyone will recognise the connector. Not being allowed to identify it as USB2 or USB3 or whatever, that could be a problem. I'm sure there are creative ways around it though.
  - kefka 13y ago
    One should be able to say "Compatible with USB2", in the similar way 3rd party companies made cartridges for the Nintendo. And about squatting on a VID.. Well, they should have thought about pollution of their namespace on their anti-hobbiest policies. They frankly deserve it.
    - usea 13y ago
      > One should be able to say "Compatible with USB2", in the similar way 3rd party companies made cartridges for the Nintendo. The most prolific of those 3rd party companies was sued by Nintendo and lost.[1][2] Although that case is not directly applicable, and had different circumstances. I thought it was worth mentioning. [1] http://digital-law-online.info/cases/24PQ2D1015.htm http://digital-law-online.info/cases/24PQ2D1015.htm [2] http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=1&cId=3146206 http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=1&cId=3146206
  - Fuxy 13y ago
    Let's just call it ThatThing2 and ThatThing3 in the hobby community :P
    - wheremiah 13y ago
      How about BSU? It could stand for a lot of things... but I like Bull Sh!t USB. Which I think is an appropriate eye-poke response to an annoying organization.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- nraynaud 13y ago
  I think there's still a problem because that leaves still only 255 PID. Maybe we should just squat the VID, and then do a PID+(another field in the descriptor) as the discriminator for people who need special protocols (I do). For now I've stolen my MCU maker VID and used 255 as PID, because I couldn't even find an "experimental" PID/VID in the spec to use during development. It's a bug and urgent problem, I'm perfectly ok to fudge the rules, but we have to agree on something that doesn't break people's drivers.
  - nicksdjohnson 13y ago
    VIDs and PIDs are 16 bits, not 8.
    - nraynaud 13y ago
      oops, my bad! But I don't think it's enough to go random on that. We need either a registry or more bits to go random.
  - nitrogen 13y ago
    I know I saw 0xffff or something like that being used for development in some source code, but it turns out searching for "VID" is impossible because it gets interpreted as "video".
    - pyre 13y ago
      Try searching this: development usb "vid" -video First hit is someone asking about VID/PID in a motherboard forum.
    - dylz 13y ago
      Search Tools > Verbatim
  - dkersten 13y ago
    When I was doing some development for some USB devices, I remember there was a VID/PID designated for development-only use. I can't remember what it was, however, and the company I was doing work for registered their own before the devices shipped.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- noselasd 13y ago
  Or (as long as it's an opensource project), just go get a PID for your gadget under the openmoko vid, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/USB_Product_IDs http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/USB_Product_IDs
- bborud 13y ago
  You wouldn't even have to make use of the VID. If a sizeable group would just agree that "we're going to view this range as set aside for open source and start using it", no company would want to accept being assigned a VID in this range.
tlarkworthy 13y ago
I don't understand. I use lots of hobby stuff with USB ports. I have to lookup the vendor ID to make it read write in linux by default. Presumably getting a proper ID makes this pain point go away from consumers somehow? What's the gain I don't understand it?
- cdawzrd 13y ago
  Many hobby things with USB ports are using the default VID/PID from the chip vendor (generally FTDI's USB-to-Serial converter chips, or the on-chip USB controller of Atmel/Microchip/etc's microcontrollers). Using your own VID/PID allows you to write and distribute a driver that can be tied to your gadget rather than using a generic driver. Widely distributing products (even if they are "hobby stuff") that re-use the microcontroller's default VID/PID is also usually against the license agreement with the chip vendor and can lead to problems down the road.
  - Kliment 13y ago
    OSHW devices can get a PID from Openmoko's range, and closed source devices can either go fuck themselves or buy a PID from http://www.mcselec.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=92&option=com_phpshop&Itemid=1 http://www.mcselec.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&f... The USB-IF can go fuck themselves either way. There is no place for them in this world, and I hope they disappear as soon as reasonably possible.
- Sanddancer 13y ago
  A proper ID makes it much easier for the consumers. By having a proper ID, the OS can search its database of drivers, and if that fails, try to download from a source such as Windows Update. Also, a lot of this could very well be trying to avoid the pain of the Bad Old Days of pre-plug and play DOS, where you had to manually set things like interrupts and I/O ports, and hope and pray that your new device didn't conflict with something important. For example, many an oldschool game had dire warnings about not running the sound card autodetect if you had things like scsi cards, because the conflicts were near inevitable and pretty catastrophic.
ck2 13y ago
Just do what all the $1 Chinese USB devices on ebay do - clone an existing VID
- amalag 13y ago
  From what I understand they clone existing VIDs because their functionality is exactly the same. If you have new functionality and need a new driver I don't think you can do that.
  - p4bl0 13y ago
    Yes. That's why people are saying the community should squat one that is still unused and then it will be ours by default, because no manufacturers will want it if its already used.
- VLM 13y ago
  That's the humorous part of the whole discussion that the VTM group is trying to preserve revenue by ignoring the hobbyists and sticking with the people who think nothing of falsifying UL registry, falsifying FCC certifications, and violating patents, but I'm sure those guys would never turn against the VTM group and illegally use the USB trademark without permission, LOL. Whereas the hobbyists, if you don't intentionally try to screw them over like they're trying to do, would probably be ridiculously loyal and obedient in comparison. Fundamentally despite the "hate opensource" and "revenue generating middlemen" story, some of which probably is true, the fundamental problem is likely the lack of a point of contact. They probably like knowing there's a directory of real world contact information such that identification number 0x123456 is clearly a product of such and such for debugging purposes and interoperability and lack of duplicate IDs and the like. Something similar happens with ethernet MAC addresses. Legendarily it was HP (or was it sun?) who shipped a whole batch of ethernet cards accidentally in the 90s with the same MAC address, boy was that a nightmare to figure out the hard way.
  - SomeCallMeTim 13y ago
    > Legendarily it was HP (or was it sun?) who shipped a whole batch of ethernet cards accidentally in the 90s with the same MAC address, boy was that a nightmare to figure out the hard way. Android has an API to query a unique device ID, which is generated from a field that's supposed to be populated with a serial number by the manufacturer. It is (or was previously) used to identify you as a particular user in some games, as well as for ad tracking and analytics. One line of phones (I forget which manufacturer) managed to NOT update that serial number correctly, and as a result the entire model of phone came up with the same "unique ID". This was not fun to debug, as lots of users were ending up with other users' saved games, and one particular "user" was showing up in analytics as having used dozens of apps thousands of times a day...
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
Aardwolf 13y ago
I'm not sure I fully understand the article. What does the following mean? "Since other USB device vendors such as Microchip and FTDI give away USB PIDs for free" Does that actually mean, they give them for free? If so, how can they do that? Why does VTM allow them to do it? And what is the actual problem at all if you can get them for free?
- NonEUCitizen 13y ago
  A device has a Vendor ID (VID) and a Product ID (PID). For example, the following is output from lsusb: Bus 002 Device 013: ID 0a12:0001 Cambridge Silicon Radio, Ltd Bluetooth Dongle (HCI mode) 0a12 is the VID for CSR, and 0001 is CSR's PID for "Bluetooth Dongle (HCI mode)." You can find a list at: http://www.linux-usb.org/usb.ids http://www.linux-usb.org/usb.ids Microchip has paid USB Forum for its VID 04d8. If you build a USB peripheral with one of their microcontrollers, you can ask Microchip to allocate you a PID (since they have 64K of these), and let you use their VID: http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/APPLICATION%20FOR%20SUBLICENSE%20TO%20USB%20VID%20revised%2012110.pdf http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/APPLICATION%...
  - Aardwolf 13y ago
    Thanks a lot! What if more than 64K people have asked for a PID?
    - candydance 13y ago
      They'd just buy up another VID, the names associated with VIDs don't need to be unique.
      - femto 13y ago
        Alternatively, a bunch of cooperating projects could share a VID:PID pair and agree amongst themselves and agree on an alternative way to identify devices. The VID:PID would cause the USB driver to load a "sub driver" that would implement the alternative scheme. For that matter, by using such an extension the whole open source community could exist under a single VID:PID.
piqufoh 13y ago
Hopefully such a bullish and short sighted stance as this is just the thing to get some publicity and traction to boot these idiots out, or at least kick the money grubbing Luddites out and replace them with someone with some common sense. Grah Where can I donate to Arachnid Labs?
- nicksdjohnson 13y ago
  Thanks for the thought. We don't accept donations, but if you like any of the stuff we sell on Tindie (https://www.tindie.com/stores/arachnidlabs/ https://www.tindie.com/stores/arachnidlabs/), feel free to buy it!
happywolf 13y ago
I presume there is a segment of VID that is marked as 'local' or 'for test purpose only'? Just like IP has local addresses for intranet/testing. Also, if an open source is popular enough to the point a unique VID is needed for proper driver support, I will say this project will easily get fundings to go commercial (just like RedHat).
- nraynaud 13y ago
  Nope I couldn't find any in the specification. Following a link on the internet it look like they actually have a prototype VID/PID, but you have to contact the forum and sign some boilerplate (saying you won't release your product with the proto numbers) to get it.
- iXce 13y ago
  Heh, most such open source projects don't want to "go commercial", that's the exact point. And I'm not sure how RedHat is exactly "an open source project who went commercial" or rather a commercial company doing open source.
- JonFish85 13y ago
  Nothing is stopping anyone from using any given VID for their own purposes of testing. If its in your own garage as the article mentions, you can use whatever you want. However, once it's out in the wild (even if it's just the few hundred devices), the USB-IF (and their lawyers) apparently can squash it. The fee is $5k if I recall. As others have mentioned, if you are planning on making a real product, it's something you can roll into the cost. Although I completely understand the difficulty of someone just looking to sell ~100 devices. I wonder if there's a way to allow a "Bring-your-own" VID? As in maybe switches or something to set the VID by the purchaser?
  - nraynaud 13y ago
    Technically, you could, but you don't want to stomp on other vendor's feet. It's a bit like mac addresses or IP addresses, you can do what you want but you probably want to behave in society (in the case of IP addresses, you'll need friends for routing). And also, to find the device from the OS API, you sometimes have to submit the VID/PID of the device you are looking for. Example: http://developer.chrome.com/apps/usb.html#method-findDevices http://developer.chrome.com/apps/usb.html#method-findDevices So changing it on the fly might be a problem (not sure, maybe once open they won't seek it again).
wiml 13y ago
According to TFA, Openmoko/FIC is already giving out PIDs from their VID space to any FOSS projects who ask. IIRC they're not the first, either. And there've also been organizations freely allocating unique ethernet addresses out of their OUI space. The amount of trouble they receive from the USBIF/IEEE/whoever seems to vary a lot from case to case, though. I expect it depends on which individual person the situation comes to the attention of. In some cases the USBIF or IEEE has actually revoked the VID/OUI assignment, leaving everyone who tried to play by the rules effectively squatting on an unassigned ID anyway. Some ancient history: https://forum.sparkfun.com/viewtopic.php?t=931 https://forum.sparkfun.com/viewtopic.php?t=931
natch 13y ago
Who are the members of the forum? Can they be replaced?
mncolinlee 13y ago
Why not use this cease and desist letter to file a RICO Act claim against them? If they can't responsibly offer their product without revoking it for simply using it as intended, they are racketeers. The Open Source community has not broken any legal agreements in simply publicizing the idea of a shared VID. The USB Forum are completely in the wrong for their behavior.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
CamperBob2 13y ago
It looks like not enough people know that you can license individual PIDs from MCS Electronics: http://www.mcselec.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=92&category_id=20&option=com_phpshop&Itemid=1 http://www.mcselec.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&f... MCS is in Holland, where both their jurisdiction and the fact that they licensed their VID from USB-IF a long time ago make it impossible to enforce the prohibition against reselling PIDs. For EU 10 each, it's worth it just to kick sand in the face of the asshats at USB-IF.
- joshvm 13y ago
  Same goes for obdev in Austria. http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/license.html http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/license.html

305 points by p4bl0 13y ago

Why not just pick a VID and start using it? USB is so well understood at this point that there is no need for anyone to play ball with an "official" organization. (Whoever gets "officially" issued that VID is going to whine when they notice it's already being used for hobbyist purposes anyway, which means that the technique of just picking one will guarantee uniqueness.)

eksith 13y ago
I like this idea. If there's some benefactor to the Open Source community (or even if they pass along a collection) for the VID, that could even work. They just need to properly implement the standard and the VID can effectively be the Hoover or Kleenex of VIDs. Edit: On second thought (after I actually read it), this bit... Please immediately cease and desist raising funds to purchase a unique USB VID for the purpose of transferring, reselling or sublicensing PIDs and delete all references to the USB-IF, VIDs and PIDs for transfer, resale or sublicense from your website and other marketing materials. ...rubs me the wrong way on so many levels, I'm tempted to say, the hell with the forum.
- alcari 13y ago
  Read the article again. That's not the Forum, that's the VTM Group, which handles their marketing and legal concerns. The USB Implementers Forum itself didn't make a statement.
  - eksith 13y ago
    This idea did not sit well with VTM Group, the people serving as the management, PR, legal, and membership and licensing department of the USB Implementers Forum The hands, the mouth and collector of thoughts cannot be separated from a thing and still be called a whole. Besides even the title says, "USB Implementers Forum Says No to Open Source"
    - ryanthejuggler 13y ago
      The article is a second-hand source; the author could be trying to stir something up, or maybe just got a bit too excited. Who knows? The article also says the proposal, among others, "haven’t hit the desk of anyone at the USB Implementers Forum, the people who are actually in charge of designating USB VIDs and PIDs". Doesn't sound like the forum said no to me.
      - PhasmaFelis 13y ago
        What is with this bizarre argument that paid legal representation doesn't legally represent their client? By definition, unless the USB Forum directs the VTM Group to retract the C&D, it represents the Forum's position.
    - derefr 13y ago
      > The hands, the mouth and collector of thoughts cannot be separated from a thing and still be called a whole. I don't know about that. Publishing houses are certainly separate from authors, and record labels from musicians.
  - nicksdjohnson 13y ago
    It's signed "Executive Director"; regardless of their internal organisation, it's a statement from USB-IF.
  - weland 13y ago
    As far as I can understand, as with every organization in the world, when the-entity-that-represents-the-marketing-and-legal-concerns of that organization writes a cease and desist, it kind of comes from that organization. The USB IF itself didn't make a statement because they don't make statements on these matters; that's why they hired VTM Group for. Don't underestimate the USB Implementers Forum. Despite its name, it is not an organization of USB users (big and small). They have a direct interest in this matter because: a) Like every organization, they need to have some source of income. Technically, they're a non-profit organization, but they're also the one who issue the VID, and a company giving out PIDs to whoever wants them is eating their "lack of profit". b) Its members who have an interest in consumer devices/end products (i.e. companies that don't sell chips, but devices using chips) tend to be large and slow-moving. The Kickstarter crowd is pecking at their business options. (True story).
  - PhasmaFelis 13y ago
    That's a ridiculous distinction. If you hire someone to represent you, you are responsible for their words and actions on your behalf.
- buro9 13y ago
  That cease and desist request ticks the boxes for "You are committing a thought crime and are not permitted to have these ideas". Which explains why we (especially) react so strongly to it.
- spiritplumber 13y ago
  "We will be willing to settle the matter with a trial by combat."
- Someone 13y ago
  An argument I would make if I we t to court fighting that is that such squatting dilutes the 'USB' brand. Imagine a world where this 'open' approach gains market share. For the consumer, the net result easily could be that USB, which now is highly plug and play, becomes more like the way ISA cards used to be plug and play: you can plug in any device, but to make it work, you need to do some voodoo (oops, there's more than one device with that PID/VID. Please tell me what you plugged in: X, Y, Z, or something I haven't heard of?") Exaggeration? Yes, but not completely untrue, and that's the argument I would make. Whatever you do, you need some entity that prevents multiple manufacturers from using clashing identifiers. That is one of the things the owners of the standard will fight for to maintain, because it is one of the things required to make USB work as well as it does. Yes, it would be nice if they sold individual VID/PID pairs to hobbyists. But I do not see a legal reason why they would have to do so. Anti-competitive? Maybe, but they will argue that there are thousands of individual vendors in the market.
  - caf 13y ago
    The fact that it's so important to prevent multiple manufacturers from using clashing IDs is exactly why it's in their interest to make registering an "official" ID as open and accessible as possible.
  - mdwrigh2 13y ago
    > Imagine a world where this 'open' approach gains market share. For the consumer, the net result easily could be that USB, which now is highly plug and play, becomes more like the way ISA cards used to be plug and play: you can plug in any device, but to make it work, you need to do some voodoo (oops, there's more than one device with that PID/VID. Please tell me what you plugged in: X, Y, Z, or something I haven't heard of?") For the record, this already is pretty common. Lots of keyboards mimic Apple's VID/PID, and tons of controllers use absolutely nonsense VIDs/PIDs (GameStop's mobile controller line, for example).
ZeroGravitas 13y ago
They have: "There are a number of ideas to get around VTM Group that include squatting on USB VID 0xF055"
- StavrosK 13y ago
  Hah, nice VID, easy to remember.
- qwerty_asdf 13y ago
  Does anybody own these? 0xDEAD 0xBEEF 0x1337 0xFACE 0xF00D 0xABCD ...and so on? Maybe, if they're reserved as unassignable (due to being an inappropriate value for professional, business puposes), then perhaps it's open season on those.
  - nraynaud 13y ago
    I think 0xF055 has circulated too much now (slashdot, hack a day, maker: etc.) So if we there should be squatting it better be on 0xF055. Let's just destroy the strict minimum to achieve our goal (having a unique VID+PID for our proprietary drivers to find the corresponding gadget on the bus).
  - rtkwe 13y ago
    Looks like no: http://www.linux-usb.org/usb.ids http://www.linux-usb.org/usb.ids Though I'm not sure how accurate and complete this list is. Edit the official list is here but they list their VIDs in dec.
  - Amadou 13y ago
    An alternative would be to find one that has been assigned to a now defunct company. Then you'd only have to worry about historical devices and if you are lucky you could come up with a list of those PIDs and exclude them.
- missing_cipher 13y ago
  For those who missed it, 0xF055 can be read as "FOSS": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open-source_software http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open-source_software
samworm 13y ago
The way these things normally work is that you're only allowed to use the name and marks if you're an official licensee. So if you put the USB logo on your marketing and claim to have a "USB Mini" connector in your specifications then you could be in trouble on two fronts: (1) the usb folks can sue you for using their IP and (2) purchasers can claim the product is not "as described" which may given them certain rights dependent upon the location. Not using the official logo shouldn't be a problem in hobby market. Everyone will recognise the connector. Not being allowed to identify it as USB2 or USB3 or whatever, that could be a problem. I'm sure there are creative ways around it though.
- kefka 13y ago
  One should be able to say "Compatible with USB2", in the similar way 3rd party companies made cartridges for the Nintendo. And about squatting on a VID.. Well, they should have thought about pollution of their namespace on their anti-hobbiest policies. They frankly deserve it.
  - usea 13y ago
    > One should be able to say "Compatible with USB2", in the similar way 3rd party companies made cartridges for the Nintendo. The most prolific of those 3rd party companies was sued by Nintendo and lost.[1][2] Although that case is not directly applicable, and had different circumstances. I thought it was worth mentioning. [1] http://digital-law-online.info/cases/24PQ2D1015.htm http://digital-law-online.info/cases/24PQ2D1015.htm [2] http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=1&cId=3146206 http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=1&cId=3146206
- Fuxy 13y ago
  Let's just call it ThatThing2 and ThatThing3 in the hobby community :P
  - wheremiah 13y ago
    How about BSU? It could stand for a lot of things... but I like Bull Sh!t USB. Which I think is an appropriate eye-poke response to an annoying organization.
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nraynaud 13y ago
I think there's still a problem because that leaves still only 255 PID. Maybe we should just squat the VID, and then do a PID+(another field in the descriptor) as the discriminator for people who need special protocols (I do). For now I've stolen my MCU maker VID and used 255 as PID, because I couldn't even find an "experimental" PID/VID in the spec to use during development. It's a bug and urgent problem, I'm perfectly ok to fudge the rules, but we have to agree on something that doesn't break people's drivers.
- nicksdjohnson 13y ago
  VIDs and PIDs are 16 bits, not 8.
  - nraynaud 13y ago
    oops, my bad! But I don't think it's enough to go random on that. We need either a registry or more bits to go random.
- nitrogen 13y ago
  I know I saw 0xffff or something like that being used for development in some source code, but it turns out searching for "VID" is impossible because it gets interpreted as "video".
  - pyre 13y ago
    Try searching this: development usb "vid" -video First hit is someone asking about VID/PID in a motherboard forum.
  - dylz 13y ago
    Search Tools > Verbatim
- dkersten 13y ago
  When I was doing some development for some USB devices, I remember there was a VID/PID designated for development-only use. I can't remember what it was, however, and the company I was doing work for registered their own before the devices shipped.
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noselasd 13y ago
Or (as long as it's an opensource project), just go get a PID for your gadget under the openmoko vid, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/USB_Product_IDs http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/USB_Product_IDs
bborud 13y ago
You wouldn't even have to make use of the VID. If a sizeable group would just agree that "we're going to view this range as set aside for open source and start using it", no company would want to accept being assigned a VID in this range.

tlarkworthy 13y ago

I don't understand. I use lots of hobby stuff with USB ports. I have to lookup the vendor ID to make it read write in linux by default. Presumably getting a proper ID makes this pain point go away from consumers somehow? What's the gain I don't understand it?

cdawzrd 13y ago
Many hobby things with USB ports are using the default VID/PID from the chip vendor (generally FTDI's USB-to-Serial converter chips, or the on-chip USB controller of Atmel/Microchip/etc's microcontrollers). Using your own VID/PID allows you to write and distribute a driver that can be tied to your gadget rather than using a generic driver. Widely distributing products (even if they are "hobby stuff") that re-use the microcontroller's default VID/PID is also usually against the license agreement with the chip vendor and can lead to problems down the road.
- Kliment 13y ago
  OSHW devices can get a PID from Openmoko's range, and closed source devices can either go fuck themselves or buy a PID from http://www.mcselec.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=92&option=com_phpshop&Itemid=1 http://www.mcselec.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&f... The USB-IF can go fuck themselves either way. There is no place for them in this world, and I hope they disappear as soon as reasonably possible.
Sanddancer 13y ago
A proper ID makes it much easier for the consumers. By having a proper ID, the OS can search its database of drivers, and if that fails, try to download from a source such as Windows Update. Also, a lot of this could very well be trying to avoid the pain of the Bad Old Days of pre-plug and play DOS, where you had to manually set things like interrupts and I/O ports, and hope and pray that your new device didn't conflict with something important. For example, many an oldschool game had dire warnings about not running the sound card autodetect if you had things like scsi cards, because the conflicts were near inevitable and pretty catastrophic.

ck2 13y ago

Just do what all the $1 Chinese USB devices on ebay do - clone an existing VID

amalag 13y ago
From what I understand they clone existing VIDs because their functionality is exactly the same. If you have new functionality and need a new driver I don't think you can do that.
- p4bl0 13y ago
  Yes. That's why people are saying the community should squat one that is still unused and then it will be ours by default, because no manufacturers will want it if its already used.
VLM 13y ago
That's the humorous part of the whole discussion that the VTM group is trying to preserve revenue by ignoring the hobbyists and sticking with the people who think nothing of falsifying UL registry, falsifying FCC certifications, and violating patents, but I'm sure those guys would never turn against the VTM group and illegally use the USB trademark without permission, LOL. Whereas the hobbyists, if you don't intentionally try to screw them over like they're trying to do, would probably be ridiculously loyal and obedient in comparison. Fundamentally despite the "hate opensource" and "revenue generating middlemen" story, some of which probably is true, the fundamental problem is likely the lack of a point of contact. They probably like knowing there's a directory of real world contact information such that identification number 0x123456 is clearly a product of such and such for debugging purposes and interoperability and lack of duplicate IDs and the like. Something similar happens with ethernet MAC addresses. Legendarily it was HP (or was it sun?) who shipped a whole batch of ethernet cards accidentally in the 90s with the same MAC address, boy was that a nightmare to figure out the hard way.
- SomeCallMeTim 13y ago
  > Legendarily it was HP (or was it sun?) who shipped a whole batch of ethernet cards accidentally in the 90s with the same MAC address, boy was that a nightmare to figure out the hard way. Android has an API to query a unique device ID, which is generated from a field that's supposed to be populated with a serial number by the manufacturer. It is (or was previously) used to identify you as a particular user in some games, as well as for ad tracking and analytics. One line of phones (I forget which manufacturer) managed to NOT update that serial number correctly, and as a result the entire model of phone came up with the same "unique ID". This was not fun to debug, as lots of users were ending up with other users' saved games, and one particular "user" was showing up in analytics as having used dozens of apps thousands of times a day...

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Aardwolf 13y ago

I'm not sure I fully understand the article. What does the following mean? "Since other USB device vendors such as Microchip and FTDI give away USB PIDs for free" Does that actually mean, they give them for free? If so, how can they do that? Why does VTM allow them to do it? And what is the actual problem at all if you can get them for free?

NonEUCitizen 13y ago
A device has a Vendor ID (VID) and a Product ID (PID). For example, the following is output from lsusb: Bus 002 Device 013: ID 0a12:0001 Cambridge Silicon Radio, Ltd Bluetooth Dongle (HCI mode) 0a12 is the VID for CSR, and 0001 is CSR's PID for "Bluetooth Dongle (HCI mode)." You can find a list at: http://www.linux-usb.org/usb.ids http://www.linux-usb.org/usb.ids Microchip has paid USB Forum for its VID 04d8. If you build a USB peripheral with one of their microcontrollers, you can ask Microchip to allocate you a PID (since they have 64K of these), and let you use their VID: http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/APPLICATION%20FOR%20SUBLICENSE%20TO%20USB%20VID%20revised%2012110.pdf http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/APPLICATION%...
- Aardwolf 13y ago
  Thanks a lot! What if more than 64K people have asked for a PID?
  - candydance 13y ago
    They'd just buy up another VID, the names associated with VIDs don't need to be unique.
    - femto 13y ago
      Alternatively, a bunch of cooperating projects could share a VID:PID pair and agree amongst themselves and agree on an alternative way to identify devices. The VID:PID would cause the USB driver to load a "sub driver" that would implement the alternative scheme. For that matter, by using such an extension the whole open source community could exist under a single VID:PID.

piqufoh 13y ago

Hopefully such a bullish and short sighted stance as this is just the thing to get some publicity and traction to boot these idiots out, or at least kick the money grubbing Luddites out and replace them with someone with some common sense. Grah Where can I donate to Arachnid Labs?

nicksdjohnson 13y ago
Thanks for the thought. We don't accept donations, but if you like any of the stuff we sell on Tindie (https://www.tindie.com/stores/arachnidlabs/ https://www.tindie.com/stores/arachnidlabs/), feel free to buy it!

happywolf 13y ago

I presume there is a segment of VID that is marked as 'local' or 'for test purpose only'? Just like IP has local addresses for intranet/testing. Also, if an open source is popular enough to the point a unique VID is needed for proper driver support, I will say this project will easily get fundings to go commercial (just like RedHat).

nraynaud 13y ago
Nope I couldn't find any in the specification. Following a link on the internet it look like they actually have a prototype VID/PID, but you have to contact the forum and sign some boilerplate (saying you won't release your product with the proto numbers) to get it.
iXce 13y ago
Heh, most such open source projects don't want to "go commercial", that's the exact point. And I'm not sure how RedHat is exactly "an open source project who went commercial" or rather a commercial company doing open source.
JonFish85 13y ago
Nothing is stopping anyone from using any given VID for their own purposes of testing. If its in your own garage as the article mentions, you can use whatever you want. However, once it's out in the wild (even if it's just the few hundred devices), the USB-IF (and their lawyers) apparently can squash it. The fee is $5k if I recall. As others have mentioned, if you are planning on making a real product, it's something you can roll into the cost. Although I completely understand the difficulty of someone just looking to sell ~100 devices. I wonder if there's a way to allow a "Bring-your-own" VID? As in maybe switches or something to set the VID by the purchaser?
- nraynaud 13y ago
  Technically, you could, but you don't want to stomp on other vendor's feet. It's a bit like mac addresses or IP addresses, you can do what you want but you probably want to behave in society (in the case of IP addresses, you'll need friends for routing). And also, to find the device from the OS API, you sometimes have to submit the VID/PID of the device you are looking for. Example: http://developer.chrome.com/apps/usb.html#method-findDevices http://developer.chrome.com/apps/usb.html#method-findDevices So changing it on the fly might be a problem (not sure, maybe once open they won't seek it again).

wiml 13y ago

According to TFA, Openmoko/FIC is already giving out PIDs from their VID space to any FOSS projects who ask. IIRC they're not the first, either. And there've also been organizations freely allocating unique ethernet addresses out of their OUI space. The amount of trouble they receive from the USBIF/IEEE/whoever seems to vary a lot from case to case, though. I expect it depends on which individual person the situation comes to the attention of. In some cases the USBIF or IEEE has actually revoked the VID/OUI assignment, leaving everyone who tried to play by the rules effectively squatting on an unassigned ID anyway. Some ancient history: https://forum.sparkfun.com/viewtopic.php?t=931 https://forum.sparkfun.com/viewtopic.php?t=931

natch 13y ago

Who are the members of the forum? Can they be replaced?

mncolinlee 13y ago

Why not use this cease and desist letter to file a RICO Act claim against them? If they can't responsibly offer their product without revoking it for simply using it as intended, they are racketeers. The Open Source community has not broken any legal agreements in simply publicizing the idea of a shared VID. The USB Forum are completely in the wrong for their behavior.

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CamperBob2 13y ago

It looks like not enough people know that you can license individual PIDs from MCS Electronics: http://www.mcselec.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=92&category_id=20&option=com_phpshop&Itemid=1 http://www.mcselec.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&f... MCS is in Holland, where both their jurisdiction and the fact that they licensed their VID from USB-IF a long time ago make it impossible to enforce the prohibition against reselling PIDs. For EU 10 each, it's worth it just to kick sand in the face of the asshats at USB-IF.

joshvm 13y ago
Same goes for obdev in Austria. http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/license.html http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/license.html