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Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For
- adamnemecek 13y agoWow, this almost makes Chick-fil-A seem like a non-bigoted 21th century hospitality establishment. Only almost though.
- rosser 13y agoThis only incidentally involves Chick-fil-A, and is utterly orthogonal to the (IMO) reprehensible beliefs and behaviors of its executives.
- jmduke 13y agoChick-fil-A employees are the most polite out of all the fast-food establishments I've frequented. The tables are always spotless, and the food is (I'll concede, this is subjective) damn good. I don't think it's particularly difficult to separate a few bigoted executives from the totality of the company.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- icebraining 13y agoThey are not just some executives, they're the founding family, and my guess is that the politeness and cleanliness are probably instilled by them as well.
- wyclif 13y agoI agree. I rarely visit Chick-fil-A, but over the summer I had to go to a conference in NC and a group of us drove down from the Northeast, urban US. We stopped at one of their locations for lunch and there were about 8-10 of us so we had to push some tables together to extend a booth and make enough room for everyone. At around the mid-point of our meal, a middle-aged female employee came to our table, smiled, and asked us if we would like more napkins and if we needed our drinks refilled. Now, maybe I'm just a cynical Yankee, but I would say that kind of treatment is extremely rare in fast food joints where I'm from. All employees I've ever encountered are well trained, professional, and super-polite (but not in an overbearing way).
- IvyMike 13y ago> Chick-fil-A employees are the most polite Admittedly subjective, but the few times I've gone to Chickfila, the politeness had a Stepford Wives superficiality to it. "It has been my pleasure to serve you today sir". Who says that? P.S. How I assuage my Chickfila guilt: http://chickfilaconfessional.com/ http://chickfilaconfessional.com/
- wyager 13y agoNot only is your comment a really ignorant and tedious shot at Chick-fil-a, but you clearly didn't even read the article.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- frogpelt 13y agoThe hippie/'open your mind' culture has left people feeling if someone doesn't agree with or support all of my lifestyle choices, if they tell me what I'm doing is wrong, they must be a bigot. It's a fallacy.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- michaelt 13y agoI'm guessing there's a gap between place-your-order and receive-your-order where you sit while your order is prepared. So, if the place is busy, the person immediately behind you has already placed their order at the time you receive and pay for yours.
- icebraining 13y agoYou only pay after receiving? That's not how they do it around here - you pace the order and pay, and then you want to receive it.
- btilly 13y agoIt varies by the type of establishment. But all of the ones discussed are drive through restaurants. There you typically place an order through a microphone, and only later do you drive up to a window where you can pay. On the inside of the same establishments, you typically will place an order, pay, receive a receipt, then later on exchange the receipt for your food.
- davidw 13y agoMakes you think about how much fast food is consumed in the US. I like a McBurger myself once in a while, but people eat altogether too much of that junk over there. Nice article though: people in the US, especially outside the big cities, are often very kind. My Italian wife is always pleasantly surprised by this when we're there.
- adhipg 13y agoI think that's true worldwide. People are often much kinder and care about their community more outside the bigger cities.
- shrikant 13y agoPeople outside big cities have higher levels of Give A Shit Capital. http://shrik.theswamp.in/2013/07/why-people-think-what-they-think-and-do.html http://shrik.theswamp.in/2013/07/why-people-think-what-they-...
- vidarh 13y agoI don't think people are all that much kinder and care more about their community overall, but rather big cities puts people into "survival mode" a lot, where we are trying to cope with too many people around. It'd be exhausting to acknowledge everyone we pass, much less great them in a friendly way. It'd be exhausting if everyone asked you if you need help (and so too few end up doing it instead) just because it's obvious you're having a bad day. And sheer numbers means running into the occasional people trying to scam you etc. is much more likely, and another reason for people to be more sceptical of your motivations etc. Get past the shields people put up to cope with this, and there's plenty of kindness to find in big cities too.
- csel 13y ago"Perhaps the largest outbreak of drive-through generosity occurred last December at a Tim Hortons in Winnipeg, Manitoba, when 228 consecutive cars paid it forward." Damn you socialist Canada. You did it with your healthcare and now you are doing it with your fast food too? :)
- VLM 13y agoIts the maple syrup high
- danso 13y agoThis happened with Starbucks years ago. At the time, people accused Starbucks of staging it. Recently, Starbucks has been making "pay it forward" be a official promotion: http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2004084452_webstarbucks20m.html http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2004084452_webstarbuc...
- fredsanford 13y agoIt's funny how this positive article with a feel good story brings out the negativity at hnews. Sometimes, reading stuff here just makes me go WTF???
- jval 13y agoI think a lot of people are on autopilot and just vote up negative stuff. I think it has something to do with the fact that a lot of people here must be in a low mood because they're starting their own business and struggling, or hating their current job and wanting to do a startup.. I don't know. Just a hypothesis. Could also have something to do with the natural skepticism of a lot of smart people who are used to poking holes in theories/systems/stories. All this is just conjecture of course but we should do a survey of some kind.
- bnegreve 13y ago> [..] a lot of people here must be in a low mood because they're starting their own business and struggling, or hating their current job and wanting to do a startup.. You're the one being cynical... It's just a bias, people don't comment if the only thing they have to say is "oh that's great".
- jval 13y agoI disagree... there are a lot of things you can say other than just 'oh that's great'. This comment thread is a perfect example of that. It is an article about people paying it forward in fast food lines (a lovely story about everyday kindness) and the top voted comment is about how much someone hates Chick-Fil-A. Not every interesting opinion has to be a negative one, and not every criticism needs to be posed in a really nasty way. Most members of the HN community have been pointing out how the quality of comments on HN has degenerated of late, I was just thinking out aloud rather than passing judgment on people who come and comment here.
- mapcar 13y agoI come to HN for a balanced perspective. If the article is positive, then I want to hear the other side of it. Like the comment about how it has the feeling of being cooperative but not really effective in redistributing resources. I don't know if it's cooperation or altruism, but I'm okay with comments that don't necessarily reaffirm the positive tone of the article.
- alecsmart1 13y agoAm curious how this works. What amount do you pay forward or do you swipe your credit card for an amount?
- shrikant 13y agoWhen you're picking up your order at a drive-through, typically the person behind you had already placed their order. You then just ask for your bill to include theirs as well. Or if you're part of a chain then just state that you'd like to pay their bill instead.
- rickyc091 13y agoI was always curious as to how this worked. Thanks for clarifying it.
- johnpowell 13y agoWhat if you just ordered some fries and a shake and a minivan with five kids is behind you?
- JoshGlazebrook 13y agoI've thought about doing this myself at Starbucks. But then I wonder if the person behind me is a car packed full of kids and their parents have rung up $25+ of frappuccinos. As I don't want the awkwardness of asking the drive thru barista the total cost of what the person behind me ordered, I haven't attempted it yet.
- DanBC 13y agoNaples has a "long standing tradition" of something called "suspended coffee". (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/04/24/178829301/eu-embraces-suspended-coffee-pay-it-forward-with-a-cup-of-joe http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/04/24/178829301/eu-emb...)
- jbrooksuk 13y agoSimilar story here in the UK. I was paying for my McDonalds at the drive-thru when for whatever reason I looked in my mirror and saw a young girl sat crying in her car looking deeply depressed. I asked if I could pay whatever her meal, did so, picked mine up and looking in the mirror I could see a genuine smile appear. I hope that if I cheered her up for even 2 seconds, she can see whatever happened to make her cry isn't going to keep her stuck feeling down.
- johnyello 13y agoPerhaps she was crying because she was about to have to eat a McDonald's? Seriously, why the fuck would someone education enough to be on HN be eating that fast food crap? If you really want a burger in the UK, go to Byrons.
- 001sky 13y agowhy the fuck would someone education enough to be on HN be eating that fast food crap Have you ever seen the food at a startup/hack-athon/all-nighter-in-the office? There is a time and a place for junk-food ! And doing stressful things in a hurry whilst maintaining high-levels of concentration is one of the physiological test-pieces for high caloric density nutrtion consumption. Its a strategy rooted in science, not gluttony. Fat, salt, sugar will impact your bio-chemistry and manage stress hormones (thus increasing concentration and performance). The "stupid" use of fast food is merely to engage in chronic, long-term consumption outside of such windows of appropriate use.
- desas 13y ago> someone education enough Brilliant.
- nicholassmith 13y agoThat'd be great if all the people in the UK actually lived in the predominately Southern areas Byron has stores.
- shrikant 13y ago
- mzahir 13y agoThis reminds me of Jonathan's card, which was shortly exploited as an 'experiment' and ultimately frozen by Starbucks https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2877779 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2877779
- lotharbot 13y agoJonathan's Card had one key characteristic that made it exploitable (even if Sam hadn't been able to transfer money off of it): there was a reliable way of knowing how much money was on the card, and therefore a reliable way of choosing when to spend (or siphon) money from the card to get high value. I'm not aware of a reliable way of knowing that the car in front of you is "paying it forward". That makes me curious: is it possible to exploit by starting a pay-it-forward chain and then circling back around with a bigger order? Would there be a particular number of cars or time of day or order size that would maximize the likelihood of getting your final order paid for, and would it have a positive expectation when accounting for the initial outlay and the time commitment? [Note that I am not advocating actually trying this; I'm satisfied with it as a thought experiment.]
- ronilan 13y agoHappend to us on the San Mateo Bridge (westbound) a couple of years back. We felt special but did not pay it forward. Instead, told the lady at the booth to consider the fee a tip :)
- hxa7241 13y agoThis is quite pointless because it essentially cancels out. To get a cooperative structure you have to give away surplus -- that is, people with more have to give it to people with less. Yes, redistribution! That seems a dirty idea in a substantial part of USA politics. So 'pay it forward' chains are a peculiar thing: they summon the feeling of cooperation, in an acceptable way, without actually being effectively cooperative.
- vidarh 13y agoThe chains are peculiar yes, but not that peculiar: It's strongly ingrained in us to return favours, to the point that giving someone something is a brutally effective way of exploiting them by later asking for a bigger favour back (e.g. consider Hare Krishna, that tended to use flowers for this purpose). The effect is so strong that we often try to prevent receiving favours because we don't want to become indebted. In that light, these chains are easy to explain: People might like the idea, but people are also likely to want to prevent a feeling of being indebted - if you can't pay back the person who did you the favour, paying it forward to the person is the next best thing. There's also social pressure to show that you're as charitable as the guy in front of you, and against being seen as the person who is either "too greedy" or too poor. There's also very low perceived cost: You were intending to pay for your meal anyway; that you're actually paying for someone elses meal makes little difference for you - it's more like friends that takes turn paying the bill when going out, where it is a social gesture rather than an attempt at charity.
- _red 13y agoQuite right. In fact the opposite works - and its known as the Ben Franklin Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Franklin_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Franklin_effect). The idea is that if I ask a favor of you (to loan me a book, in Ben's case) - you are more likely to become friendly to me in the future. Its a curious extension of what you mentioned above, by asking you for a favor - which you then grant - you gain a sort of psychological 'credit' over me (I owe you). In fact, because you implicitly recognize that I'm voluntarily offering to place myself in your debt, you are happy to oblige since you recognize the subtle power relationship at work. I learned about this from a lawyer friend who claims he uses it all the time. If there is someone professionally he want to get to know, he will call them and ask them for a small favor (ie. I can't make the social gala party tonight, could you please take my check with you and drop it off to pay for my yearly dues...etc).
- webhat 13y agoI thought the gesture was great, although I couldn't help wondering if it's an act of kindness to give away fast food in a nation that is struggling with obesity. Could just be me.
- jongold 13y agoIt's the thought that counts, but from a European perspective it's a bizarre thought nonetheless. Quaint and cute and gross all at the same time.
- 001sky 13y agoThe expression was popularized by the best-selling novel “Pay It Forward” ... The protagonist does three good deeds and asks the beneficiaries to do three good deeds and so on. The origins of this term are somewhat different, and worth noting. The normal mode of reciporocity is to 'pay it back'. However, there are certain times when this would be physically impossible. This is the origin of 'pay it forward'. It results from the humble notion: I can never pay it back, so I will pay it forward. It has nothing to do with scaling (3x), nor contingency (i did this for you, now you do this...etc). It is a response to an actual act of kindness or generosity that precisely lacks such a contingency (most usually because you will never interact with the person that helped you out, ever again). It would have been nice for the NY Times piece to note this correctly! Its just too bad that the actual understanding of the term could not be promulgated through what is otherwise a good piece (likely to be widely read).
- oskarth 13y agoGreat comment, very interesting. Have you considered emailing the author/editor? Genuine corrections have a decent chance of being included.
- cstejerean 13y ago"While confusing in the context of paying for the car behind you in a drive-through, “pay it forward” means to repay a kindness by being kind to someone else rather than the person who was kind to you." The article didn't claim it had anything to do with 3x. That was simply explaining the version in the movie, which did in fact popularize the term.
- 001sky 13y agoA proper definition of any term should not be consistent with its mis-use. The term from the movie is a ~mis-use, and yet the term as elsewhwere defined (by your quote) is consistent with the mis-use. Its not technically 'false', but it suffers from an 'error of omission', for not having the correct level of granularity (to avoid confusion).
- bsenftner 13y agoI suspect a carefully coordinated PR campaign for Chick-fil-A, as I've noticed uncharacteristically, frequent positive references to them in unrelated news items lately. I consume a lot of news, and noticing "fake" planted positive references in tangentially related articles is par for the course for any company that stepped in deep shit like they did. I suspect at least one of these positive comments here to be a plant as well. If you think this is paranoid, you don't know how our world works.
- drcode 13y agoProbably true, except for the part about chicfila staff trolling HN.
- janesvilleseo 13y agoI agree with you, based on personal experience this happens, a lot. In the organizations I have been with, not everyone in the company even know it was a planted piece.
- yetanotherphd 13y agoThere are hundreds of stories about various companies on hn. The fact that you single out this one says more about your liberal bias than its objective "fakeness".
- rooster8 13y ago
- drcode 13y agoOf course, the only reason this works is that it is not socially acceptable to break the chain in this circumstance. For instance, if there was a tip/charity jar (and I'm guessing there isn't in the cases this works) I would simply put my surplus into the tip jar and break the chain, because I find this idea annoying. If there is no tip jar, I would have no choice but to continue the chain.
- lmm 13y agoSurprised the article didn't mention the original source of the expression - sci-fi author Robert Heinlein, over 50 years ago.
- renang 13y agoAnd what is the point exactly? What good does to pay a meal for a person that could very much be paying their own meal? They can pay hundreds of dollars for a car, tens of dollars for a full tank of gasoline, yet they can't pay for a 4 dollars Big Mac? If I had no money the last place for spending it would be on a fast-food place. There is much more you can do with 4 dollars. You can get better and healthier food. So, instead why not help people who actually can't afford a Big Mac?
- pbhjpbhj 13y ago>They can pay hundreds of dollars for a car, tens of dollars for a full tank of gasoline, yet they can't pay for a 4 dollars Big Mac? // I've been in this situation. We need a car for work and so the outlay on the car and the gas is required if we want to earn money with the car. We can't however afford to eat at McDo' so you wouldn't find us in the line [also I disprove of drive-through].
- edw519 13y ago"Pay it forward." THIS is why I'm a programmer. Sure, I'm a professional and I earn quite well, but any customer I've ever had will tell you that the value they received from me far exceeded what it cost them. Delivering customer value. That's it for me. I'm really much less interested in all the other things we talk about here: languages, algorithms, hacks, investments, technology, etc. I'd rather hack my customers' problems than my own. Why do I consider this paying if forward? Because of everyone who ever helped me get where I am: teachers, mentors, customers, peers, but mostly my parents and grandparents who all had difficult lives and made great sacrifices. They never had the opportunities I have now, a relatively easy life and the ability to turn nothing into something for someone else. I can't (literally) pay them back any more, but I can by paying it forward to others. I always felt this way but never knew how to verbalize it until I heard the phrase "Pay it Forward". Thanks. Great HN post.
- patrickmay 13y ago> any customer I've ever had will tell you that the value they received from me far exceeded what it cost them. That's the whole point of capitalism (as opposed to what our non-representatives in DC call capitalism) -- with free trade everyone is better off.
- marcoperuano 13y agoMy mom is a single mother who worked really hard to give my brother, sister, and me what we have today. Even now she's still working in some awful factory to pay the bills. While I'm in some office making much more with less stress. Its crazy an depressing. So, I'm paying it back I guess. I help her with a good chunk of her bills. I hope one day I have enough income to pay everything for her, it'll be her reward for being a great parent. That day is coming soon!! www.marcoledesma.com
- jodrellblank 13y agoThat's a curious effect. Consider: Situation 1) You drive up to pay for your food, you pay the price you were expecting, you leave with the same mood you arrived with. Situation 2) You drive up to pay for your food, you find the person ahead has paid for you, you pay nothing, you leave happier because someone has been kind to you and you get a free lunch. Situation 3) You drive up to pay for your food, and you find the person ahead has paid for you. You feel happier because someone has been kind to you, and in turn you pay for the person behind you. You pay an unexpected amount, possibly more than your own food cost. Now you leave with a lunch you may as well have paid for, but you leave happier. In situation 2, the free lunch looks like the thing that makes you happier. In situation 3, you might pay more than your lunch price and yet still leave happier. In situation 3, everyone in the chain has gone to get some lunch, got some lunch, paid for some lunch ... and left happier. And yet, if you tried to set it up to work this way - either the drive thru had a rule where you always paid for the person behind you (and if nobody was there you paid a random amount, or the average price of the previous N orders), or if there was a social expectation of same (i.e. like tipping, unwritten but obligatory), then I don't think it would work. In fact, going there expecting to pay an unknown amount seems like it would make me feel worse; and going there expecting a 'free' meal would tend to make me either order much more (it's free) or feel obliged to order less (someone else is paying), but either way be less comfortable about the whole deal. It's not surprising to me that in the small scale, receiving kindness and/or doing something kind feels good. But it is surprising that on a wider scale, one system where everyone orders/pays/eats has minimal effect on mood and another where everyone orders/pays/eats results in a chain of tens of people feeling happier. (Side questions: It's easy for the article to present this as a chain of happiness, but how many people in the chains of tens of cars didn't feel happier, and felt indifferent? And how many felt worse yet obliged to participate to avoid looking stingy?) My guess is that if it expands to be a social norm, it will hit the same kind of backlash as tipping does - arguments about whether taking your food and not paying for the people behind makes you a horrible person, or whether it's okay to pay for just the price of your meal for the people behind / whether you should be willing to pay 10% or 20% more than your meal, or whether if you're paying a random price because there's no car behind you, is it okay for the restaurant to come to depend on pocketing the difference for its profits. Could we systematise the kindness/happiness effect without ruining it?
- e40 13y agoIn the reddit thread for this same article, I found this the best comment: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/elal2/have_you_ever_picked_up_a_hitchhiker/c18z0z2 http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/elal2/have_you_ev... A much better "pay it forward" story.
- GuerraEarth 13y agoRead this reddit article. It is likely the best thing many of us will hear for years. It's a life-changer.
- Albuca 13y agoI read the whole thing as well. So much good in the world -- I hope it keeps inspiring people to do the same =]
- naterator 13y agoI have reddit blocked on my computers because for a very long period I wasted so much time there, but I bet I already know what story you're linking to. "Today you, tomorrow me". It spawned a subreddit by the same name. I avoid reddit because it's a time black hole (100x worse than HN for me), but I really wish I could still benefit from the few things like this that get posted 1 out of 1,000,000+ comments.
- triplesec 13y agoThanks for posting that very relevant reddit. Oddly enough - and this is not a point that we should all get religious - to anyone brought up in church traditions (and rejected them or not) it likely reminds them of the parable of the good Samaritan. The idea that the guy you look down upon is actually the guy that may well be the one that helps you in your hour of need. The learning obviously being that you shoudl stop being such a snotty git and love your neigbour. You don't need to be religious to love this story, but it's worth noting that this is ancient and useful wisdom from sages of older times. (and, why I tend to reject organised religions nowadays, the kind of good thing co-opted, hegemonised and bastardised into all sorts of controlling and political things by subsequent institutions)
- brianbreslin 13y agoI'm guessing by the time I get to the window to pay, they have already taken the person behind me's order, and know the expected price right? Sometimes I wish I had the option of tipping the fast food joint employees, as I think it would make them happier. Starbucks too, if you pay with credit card (as we are increasingly doing so), then we don't have that option anymore. To add to the last point, I'd like to be able to give money direct to the employees, as I feel they wouldn't get a fair piece of it if the company was allowed to disburse it.
- dmdeller 13y agoReminds me of a story from Japan about a fly-by-night café based on a similar idea: in addition to paying for the person after you, you would choose what food they would receive as well. http://www.cabel.name/2009/09/kashiwa-mystery-cafe.html http://www.cabel.name/2009/09/kashiwa-mystery-cafe.html
- mrcactu5 13y agothis almost cancel's out the societal effects of the (still active) KKK.
- ck2 13y agoHow about paying for food for the homeless instead? Someone in a car at a fast food place is probably well off enough to afford the car, maintenance, gas, etc.
- IvyMike 13y agoSo the US is pretty demographically heterogeneous. Instead of a "we're all in this together" attitude like they have in (for example) Iceland, a lot of people here have a "us v. them" attitude. I think a lot of this is fueled by conscious or subconscious racism. I believe this is why we have trouble passing a lot of social welfare programs, education reform, healthcare, etc. You hear a lot of complaints that boil down to "THEY will abuse the system" meaning whoever the speaker thinks is undesirable. And that's why people like the "pay it forward in the drive-thru" style charity: the people you are helping are more likely to be just like you.
- ck2 13y agoThat's a pretty sad but true realization.
- pjbrunet 13y agoTrickle-Back economics? I think this is cool but there's more charitable ways to go vs. buying the rear-view clunker a milk shake.
- rXoX 13y ago127 comments and nobody wants to talk about how this phenomenon throws a wrench into the 'free riders' problem? Maybe this is an opportunity for Americans to finally appreciate their countrymen aren't a bunch of lazy, selfish, individualistic... nah...