6 ms·

I think the problem here is that VS needs to satisfy the needs of many different types of developers and also try to appeal each ones personal preferences. Per

I think the problem here is that VS needs to satisfy the needs of many different types of developers and also try to appeal each ones personal preferences. Personally I am enjoying VS2012 a lot and it is really sad that there are hardly other IDEs this good.

at-fates-hands 13y ago
I completely agree. I've gone through plenty of good IDE's in the last year. From Dreamweaver, to Text Mate, to Komodo, to Aptana. I started using VS when I landed in a .Net shop and it made sense to use it. Totally blown away by some of the cooler features you can't find on any other IDE. Even the free VS Express (which I now use at home) is so much better than other IDE's out there.
- eropple 13y ago
  What features does VS2012 have for .NET (IDE features, not platform features) that don't have direct analogues in IDEA? For C++, I find VS rather lacking compared to Xcode (though that's a combination of the compiler being dumb and IntelliSense being poor).
_pmf_ 13y ago
> I think the problem here is that VS needs to satisfy the needs of many different types of developers No, it does not need to. Someone decided that it needs to pander to web monkeys instead of empowering users that have used VS for 10+ years.
- archon 13y ago
  > pander to web monkeys Really? How exactly does VS2012 pander to "web monkeys" at the expense of others?
  - anton_gogolev 13y ago
    It's not necessarily "monkeys", but, disturbingly, Microsoft developer tools are becoming more and more oriented towards "wizard-and-designer-clickety-clickery" type development. There are a few exceptions to this rule (think EF Code-First), but that's a drop in the ocean.
    - matwood 13y ago
      Microsoft developer tools are becoming more and more oriented towards "wizard-and-designer-clickety-clickery" type development. Maybe you are just now noticing, but MS dev tools have always had wizard clicky things. For example, see the original Visual Basics from the 90s.
      - anton_gogolev 13y ago
        AFAIK, Visual Basic was targeted at non-professional/beginner programmers, so having wizards and designers is fine there. My main gripe with abundance of today's "visual programming" is that we have memory-managed languages with immense expressive power and ability to write all kinds of DSLs, yet what Microsoft does is it provides crippled XML-backed designers along with half-baked frameworks and class libraries.
        chris_mahan 13y ago
        All microsoft products are targeted at purchasing decision-makers.
        Throwadev 13y ago
        I've used VS for a few years, and have NEVER used any of the "visual programming" stuff.
        ConceptJunkie 13y ago
        Microsoft has always had "half-baked frameworks and class libraries". I actually like MFC, but it never really got past the "good for a first cut" phase, IMO. Fortunately, I've never had to deal with .NET, and besides a little MFC, most of my work is on Linux these days.
- mkohlmyr 13y ago
  "web monkeys" Cute. Meanwhile you're the one developing in VS on Windows.
  - overgryphon 13y ago
    I don't think the comment was intended to be derogatory towards web programmers, so much as annoyed at the "you can create a website in an hour without writing a line of code" oriented features. Some of the web-oriented stuff in VS over the last several years seemed to be targeted towards mouse-oriented design of small web apps rather than more serious web programming. I do not think that is still the case, though I haven't really been paying attention.
- untog 13y ago
  Someone decided that it needs to pander to web monkeys instead of empowering users that have used VS for 10+ years. Which it probably does, given the huge amount of development that is web-based these days. The market for Windows-based C# applications is shrinking by the day.
- Finster 13y ago
  FWIW, I can build an app in html5/javascript for every major desktop and mobile platform that runs "natively" on the host OS.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

at-fates-hands 13y ago

I completely agree. I've gone through plenty of good IDE's in the last year. From Dreamweaver, to Text Mate, to Komodo, to Aptana. I started using VS when I landed in a .Net shop and it made sense to use it. Totally blown away by some of the cooler features you can't find on any other IDE. Even the free VS Express (which I now use at home) is so much better than other IDE's out there.

eropple 13y ago
What features does VS2012 have for .NET (IDE features, not platform features) that don't have direct analogues in IDEA? For C++, I find VS rather lacking compared to Xcode (though that's a combination of the compiler being dumb and IntelliSense being poor).

_pmf_ 13y ago

> I think the problem here is that VS needs to satisfy the needs of many different types of developers No, it does not need to. Someone decided that it needs to pander to web monkeys instead of empowering users that have used VS for 10+ years.

archon 13y ago
> pander to web monkeys Really? How exactly does VS2012 pander to "web monkeys" at the expense of others?
- anton_gogolev 13y ago
  It's not necessarily "monkeys", but, disturbingly, Microsoft developer tools are becoming more and more oriented towards "wizard-and-designer-clickety-clickery" type development. There are a few exceptions to this rule (think EF Code-First), but that's a drop in the ocean.
  - matwood 13y ago
    Microsoft developer tools are becoming more and more oriented towards "wizard-and-designer-clickety-clickery" type development. Maybe you are just now noticing, but MS dev tools have always had wizard clicky things. For example, see the original Visual Basics from the 90s.
    - anton_gogolev 13y ago
      AFAIK, Visual Basic was targeted at non-professional/beginner programmers, so having wizards and designers is fine there. My main gripe with abundance of today's "visual programming" is that we have memory-managed languages with immense expressive power and ability to write all kinds of DSLs, yet what Microsoft does is it provides crippled XML-backed designers along with half-baked frameworks and class libraries.
      - chris_mahan 13y ago
        All microsoft products are targeted at purchasing decision-makers.
      - Throwadev 13y ago
        I've used VS for a few years, and have NEVER used any of the "visual programming" stuff.
      - ConceptJunkie 13y ago
        Microsoft has always had "half-baked frameworks and class libraries". I actually like MFC, but it never really got past the "good for a first cut" phase, IMO. Fortunately, I've never had to deal with .NET, and besides a little MFC, most of my work is on Linux these days.
mkohlmyr 13y ago
"web monkeys" Cute. Meanwhile you're the one developing in VS on Windows.
- overgryphon 13y ago
  I don't think the comment was intended to be derogatory towards web programmers, so much as annoyed at the "you can create a website in an hour without writing a line of code" oriented features. Some of the web-oriented stuff in VS over the last several years seemed to be targeted towards mouse-oriented design of small web apps rather than more serious web programming. I do not think that is still the case, though I haven't really been paying attention.
untog 13y ago
Someone decided that it needs to pander to web monkeys instead of empowering users that have used VS for 10+ years. Which it probably does, given the huge amount of development that is web-based these days. The market for Windows-based C# applications is shrinking by the day.
Finster 13y ago
FWIW, I can build an app in html5/javascript for every major desktop and mobile platform that runs "natively" on the host OS.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]