5 ms·

IMF strongly suggests countries tax the rich to fix deficit

40 points by Tsiolkovsky 13y ago

Qantourisc 13y ago
Tax capitalism/making money of money. Also at what point does having money to get certain things done stop severing the community?
vinceguidry 13y ago
Hah. That's a laugh. Never gonna happen.
Mikeb85 13y ago
It doesn't always work because there are too many tax havens. If you increase the taxes too sharply, the rich will simply take their wealth elsewhere, and then the government gets nothing. The recent situation in France (which ended up being averted anyway) being an example, many of the countries rich debated moving their assets and businesses to Belgium or Switzerland... Taxes can be an effective tool, but they have to make sense. You can't kill a businesses ability to compete, nor can you remove the incentives to build wealth.
- Shivetya 13y ago
  there isn't enough rich to tax to fix debt, unless you count everyone above the poverty line.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    If the top 10% controls 80% of the wealth, there are definitely enough rich to fix the debt.
    - sidww2 13y ago
      Wealth is not income though. Higher wealth taxes would go a long way but then you again have the problem of the wealthy simply moving their wealth out or not bringing it to the high-tax country in the first place.
      - zanny 13y ago
        > the problem of the wealthy simply moving their wealth out I could easily see any nation trying to implement higher taxes on the rich to also implement a wealth export tax that takes a tremendous portion of their accumulated wealth if they try to jump ship and take it overseas. > not bringing it to the high-tax country in the first place. This is the larger concern, but if a society can't survive without the good graces of the lucky rich, it is already their slaves.
      - richardwhiuk 13y ago
        The IMF is talking about global monetary policy - if all countries did implement tax on high net wealth individuals, then it could have an impact. Or they can penalize countries who operate tax havens - it's not like tax havens represents a significant amount of either trade or GDP.
      - jellicle 13y ago
        As so many hackers have found out, it doesn't matter where the money is. It matters where YOU are.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - deelowe 13y ago
      People aren't taxed based on net worth and I've yet to see that proposed, so I'm not sure how it would work. Either way, it's orthogonal to the proposal linked by the OP.
      - nimble 13y ago
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_tax http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_tax
      - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
        Morally, our personal share of national debt should be related to how much wealth we have. $52k sounds like a lot of money to most of us not in the 1%, and especially someone who is poor, but really, it sounds like a lot just because we have such a small share of the GDP. Practically speaking, ya, it would be a challenge to make the system fair. But either the rich will pay, or there will eventually be some kind of destructive revolution to bring things back into balance (probably by making everyone poorer).
    - Mikeb85 13y ago
      > If the top 10% controls 80% of the wealth, there are definitely enough rich to fix the debt. In many cases wealth isn't liquid. Wealth exists in the form of securities and assets. If you were to attempt to tax these, there would be absolute chaos - bank runs, stock market crashes, etc..., as everyone tries to liquefy their assets or move to protect them. You could potentially tax cash savings, but that's not going to change much.
      - judk 13y ago
        Your claim is that people would rather destroy their wealth in an asset crash, over giving a piece of it up?
        Mikeb85 13y ago
        No. But if everyone worth a billion had to liquidate even 5% of it, it would cause huge dip in the market, and in turn funds and retail investors would sell off shares, people would hoard cash overseas, and a crash would be the end result. We saw in France a huge uproar over the threat of a 75% tax, thankfully the courts declared it illegal...
sebkomianos 13y ago
I am not sure about the strength of this suggestion and I am not going to comment it (or the suggestion itself). It's funny how many excuses people try to find against such "proposals". You can hear/listen to all kinds of excuses. From "yeah, good luck making them pay their taxes" to "if you tax them they will go to another country". Really? They won't pay their taxes? Jail them. Really? They will go to another country? Let them go then, and forbid them from operating in your country. It's beyond understanding how such a big part of the "middle class" believes we shouldn't touch the rich. And, of course, it's also beyond understanding how we have allowed tax heavens to exist. Very funny, for example, to watch Germany go all crazy against private money in Cypriot banks but ignore Switzerland and Luxemburg ones.
- Kaizyn 13y ago
  Generally, if you or I take what belongs to another person (wealthy or not) it is called theft. However, when we start talking about governments expropriating wealth for its own ends - such as paying off its spending deficits - that's considered OK. No one argues with the concept that necessary government services should be paid for by the people who live in a country and make use of those services. What is usually objected to is when someone gets the bright idea that because wealthy people have money, that money should be taken to pay for irresponsible government spending. It's no different than infamous bank robber Willie Sutton. He was asked why he robbed banks and offered as a reply, "Because that's where the money is."
  - sebkomianos 13y ago
    I am not for theft. I am for a more fair taxation system. Banks aren't even being properly taxed at all anyway, for example.
- millstone 13y ago
  The excuses are at their funniest when the issue is at its most indefensible, such as the proposals to end the carried interest exemption, or the accelerated depreciation of corporate jets.
incompatible 13y ago
Allow them to build as many apartment blocks as they like. Supply and demand will eventually sort it out.
PLejeck 13y ago
I don't think we should view tax increases as a serious solution to debt so much as a means to combat income disparity and provide safety nets. The US government has shown us that tax increases usually go to fund irrelevant wars on other continents or NSA spying. Very little goes to worthy programs like NASA or helping the poor. While I agree the rich should pay more, I think that we need to really take a good hard look at what that increase in revenue would actually pay for, and see if it's absolutely necessary.
adventured 13y ago
Higher taxes on income can help with the deficit, no question. However, you realistically can't raise taxes enough in America to fill the $750 billion deficit. To balance the issue, I like to ask a simple question: what did America get in exchange for doubling the size of its government between 2000 and 2012? (during which population increased by a mere 11%) Is our economy better off? No, we have the greatest amount of poverty since the great depression (15% U6 unemployment, 46 million on food stamps, etc). Do we have less debt? No, twice as much. Is our military stronger? No, it's worn out, we've lost thousands of good soldiers and our weapons are destroyed, having lost a small war machine in the desert. Is Social Security more solvent? No, it's bleeding red ink now. Is our infrastructure better? No, it's in shockingly horrendous shape. Is our electrical grid, and energy production improved? No, it's collapsing, with black-outs ten times higher compared to 20 years ago. Are we safer, with a hundred billion in added domestic security spending? I'd argue not, that it's mostly security theater. Do we have a higher home ownership rate? No. Do we have less consumer debt? No, more. Is our education system flourishing? No, it's an absolute disaster, from K-12 results, to the trillion dollars in college debt. Do we have more full time jobs? No, seven million less since 2007, and about 92% of the jobs being created over the last year are part-time jobs. Do we have more manufacturing jobs? No. Has the long promised manufacturing boom from cheap natural gas arrived? No. Is Washington DC functioning properly, such that we can trust them to be responsible with our hard earned tax dollars? No. Do we have a lot less people committing welfare fraud? No, SS disability has enrolled millions in just six years that are lying about their inability to work. This list doesn't stop going. So what did we get for the extra $18 trillion above population growth in spending over 12 years? What did we get for all the debt? Absolutely nothing. So we should just keep spending more? That's going to have an obvious outcome.
- millstone 13y ago
  > what did America get in exchange for doubling the size of its government between 2000 and 2012? That's a valid question. Working from www.usgovernmentspending.com, I found the increase to be about $1.7 trillion. $300 billion is health care, mostly Medicaid; $500 billion from increased defense spending, and $300 billion in transfer payments, including unemployment, food stamps, SSI, and the child tax credit. Inflation accounts for about $500 billion as well. So to answer your question, "what we got" is that we are able to pay for the increase in medical costs, the increase in the number of people needing assistance, and the War on Terror. With the exception of the military, these increases are mostly in reaction to the changes in the economy, not due to new policies. Hopefully an improving economy will lift incomes and reduce the need for these programs.
politician 13y ago
If, once again, we're talking about a group of individuals that controls (once again!) over a third of the wealth in their respective countries, then shouldn't we conclude that money is a fairly poor form of rationing? Putin's policies show that "the rich" are no actual threat to government. Why would the IMF bother with this recommendation?
blisterpeanuts 13y ago
In the U.S., the top 10% earners pay 70% of federal taxes. The bottom 50% pay nothing at all (they do pay about 12% to state/local/sales taxes). Then we have business owners and majority share owners and the like, who are rich on paper, yet do not earn significantly more income than most middle class salary earners. Should they be paying out more taxes since they're in some kind of millionaire bracket, even though they're largely devoting their assets to employing people to produce goods and services? I realize these are over-simplified kinds of generalizations and there are undoubtedly very wealthy people and cash-rich entities that pay little or no income taxes or corporate taxes, thanks to offshoring their assets and other workarounds. But, I just don't see where all the money is, that's supposedly lying around, waiting to be scooped up by the tax man. In fact, the situation seems to be rather the opposite. Most of the money controlled by the rich in fact is being put to work in companies, and attempting to get at it would probably cause great damage to the economy. To my (supply sider) mind, a simpler and far more effective choice would be to cut government spending until outflow meets intake (and then go a few hundred billion farther, so that debts can be paid). Among other things, this might have a positive effect on business optimism, and we would experience an uptick in hiring for start-ups and established companies alike.
- kaonashi 13y ago
  >The bottom 50% pay nothing at all (they do pay about 12% to state/local/sales taxes). Bullshit. Not just bullshit, but pernicious bullshit. Payroll taxes account for the same amount of receipts as income taxes. Payroll taxes are extremely regressive. That's some mighty creative accounting where you ignore half of all tax receipts when talking about tax revenue. http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numbers/revenue.cfm http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numb... The other side of this coin is that tax dollars at the federal level are a returned IOU, they do nothing to fund the government.
- bane 13y ago
  > The bottom 50% pay nothing at all I've definitely spent significant portions of my life in the bottom 50% and I definitely paid taxes.
- 13y ago

40 points by Tsiolkovsky 13y ago

Tax capitalism/making money of money. Also at what point does having money to get certain things done stop severing the community?

vinceguidry 13y ago

Hah. That's a laugh. Never gonna happen.

Mikeb85 13y ago

It doesn't always work because there are too many tax havens. If you increase the taxes too sharply, the rich will simply take their wealth elsewhere, and then the government gets nothing. The recent situation in France (which ended up being averted anyway) being an example, many of the countries rich debated moving their assets and businesses to Belgium or Switzerland... Taxes can be an effective tool, but they have to make sense. You can't kill a businesses ability to compete, nor can you remove the incentives to build wealth.

Shivetya 13y ago
there isn't enough rich to tax to fix debt, unless you count everyone above the poverty line.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  If the top 10% controls 80% of the wealth, there are definitely enough rich to fix the debt.
  - sidww2 13y ago
    Wealth is not income though. Higher wealth taxes would go a long way but then you again have the problem of the wealthy simply moving their wealth out or not bringing it to the high-tax country in the first place.
    - zanny 13y ago
      > the problem of the wealthy simply moving their wealth out I could easily see any nation trying to implement higher taxes on the rich to also implement a wealth export tax that takes a tremendous portion of their accumulated wealth if they try to jump ship and take it overseas. > not bringing it to the high-tax country in the first place. This is the larger concern, but if a society can't survive without the good graces of the lucky rich, it is already their slaves.
    - richardwhiuk 13y ago
      The IMF is talking about global monetary policy - if all countries did implement tax on high net wealth individuals, then it could have an impact. Or they can penalize countries who operate tax havens - it's not like tax havens represents a significant amount of either trade or GDP.
    - jellicle 13y ago
      As so many hackers have found out, it doesn't matter where the money is. It matters where YOU are.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - deelowe 13y ago
    People aren't taxed based on net worth and I've yet to see that proposed, so I'm not sure how it would work. Either way, it's orthogonal to the proposal linked by the OP.
    - nimble 13y ago
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_tax http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_tax
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      Morally, our personal share of national debt should be related to how much wealth we have. $52k sounds like a lot of money to most of us not in the 1%, and especially someone who is poor, but really, it sounds like a lot just because we have such a small share of the GDP. Practically speaking, ya, it would be a challenge to make the system fair. But either the rich will pay, or there will eventually be some kind of destructive revolution to bring things back into balance (probably by making everyone poorer).
  - Mikeb85 13y ago
    > If the top 10% controls 80% of the wealth, there are definitely enough rich to fix the debt. In many cases wealth isn't liquid. Wealth exists in the form of securities and assets. If you were to attempt to tax these, there would be absolute chaos - bank runs, stock market crashes, etc..., as everyone tries to liquefy their assets or move to protect them. You could potentially tax cash savings, but that's not going to change much.
    - judk 13y ago
      Your claim is that people would rather destroy their wealth in an asset crash, over giving a piece of it up?
      - Mikeb85 13y ago
        No. But if everyone worth a billion had to liquidate even 5% of it, it would cause huge dip in the market, and in turn funds and retail investors would sell off shares, people would hoard cash overseas, and a crash would be the end result. We saw in France a huge uproar over the threat of a 75% tax, thankfully the courts declared it illegal...

sebkomianos 13y ago

I am not sure about the strength of this suggestion and I am not going to comment it (or the suggestion itself). It's funny how many excuses people try to find against such "proposals". You can hear/listen to all kinds of excuses. From "yeah, good luck making them pay their taxes" to "if you tax them they will go to another country". Really? They won't pay their taxes? Jail them. Really? They will go to another country? Let them go then, and forbid them from operating in your country. It's beyond understanding how such a big part of the "middle class" believes we shouldn't touch the rich. And, of course, it's also beyond understanding how we have allowed tax heavens to exist. Very funny, for example, to watch Germany go all crazy against private money in Cypriot banks but ignore Switzerland and Luxemburg ones.

Kaizyn 13y ago
Generally, if you or I take what belongs to another person (wealthy or not) it is called theft. However, when we start talking about governments expropriating wealth for its own ends - such as paying off its spending deficits - that's considered OK. No one argues with the concept that necessary government services should be paid for by the people who live in a country and make use of those services. What is usually objected to is when someone gets the bright idea that because wealthy people have money, that money should be taken to pay for irresponsible government spending. It's no different than infamous bank robber Willie Sutton. He was asked why he robbed banks and offered as a reply, "Because that's where the money is."
- sebkomianos 13y ago
  I am not for theft. I am for a more fair taxation system. Banks aren't even being properly taxed at all anyway, for example.
millstone 13y ago
The excuses are at their funniest when the issue is at its most indefensible, such as the proposals to end the carried interest exemption, or the accelerated depreciation of corporate jets.

incompatible 13y ago

Allow them to build as many apartment blocks as they like. Supply and demand will eventually sort it out.

PLejeck 13y ago

I don't think we should view tax increases as a serious solution to debt so much as a means to combat income disparity and provide safety nets. The US government has shown us that tax increases usually go to fund irrelevant wars on other continents or NSA spying. Very little goes to worthy programs like NASA or helping the poor. While I agree the rich should pay more, I think that we need to really take a good hard look at what that increase in revenue would actually pay for, and see if it's absolutely necessary.

adventured 13y ago

Higher taxes on income can help with the deficit, no question. However, you realistically can't raise taxes enough in America to fill the $750 billion deficit. To balance the issue, I like to ask a simple question: what did America get in exchange for doubling the size of its government between 2000 and 2012? (during which population increased by a mere 11%) Is our economy better off? No, we have the greatest amount of poverty since the great depression (15% U6 unemployment, 46 million on food stamps, etc). Do we have less debt? No, twice as much. Is our military stronger? No, it's worn out, we've lost thousands of good soldiers and our weapons are destroyed, having lost a small war machine in the desert. Is Social Security more solvent? No, it's bleeding red ink now. Is our infrastructure better? No, it's in shockingly horrendous shape. Is our electrical grid, and energy production improved? No, it's collapsing, with black-outs ten times higher compared to 20 years ago. Are we safer, with a hundred billion in added domestic security spending? I'd argue not, that it's mostly security theater. Do we have a higher home ownership rate? No. Do we have less consumer debt? No, more. Is our education system flourishing? No, it's an absolute disaster, from K-12 results, to the trillion dollars in college debt. Do we have more full time jobs? No, seven million less since 2007, and about 92% of the jobs being created over the last year are part-time jobs. Do we have more manufacturing jobs? No. Has the long promised manufacturing boom from cheap natural gas arrived? No. Is Washington DC functioning properly, such that we can trust them to be responsible with our hard earned tax dollars? No. Do we have a lot less people committing welfare fraud? No, SS disability has enrolled millions in just six years that are lying about their inability to work. This list doesn't stop going. So what did we get for the extra $18 trillion above population growth in spending over 12 years? What did we get for all the debt? Absolutely nothing. So we should just keep spending more? That's going to have an obvious outcome.

millstone 13y ago
> what did America get in exchange for doubling the size of its government between 2000 and 2012? That's a valid question. Working from www.usgovernmentspending.com, I found the increase to be about $1.7 trillion. $300 billion is health care, mostly Medicaid; $500 billion from increased defense spending, and $300 billion in transfer payments, including unemployment, food stamps, SSI, and the child tax credit. Inflation accounts for about $500 billion as well. So to answer your question, "what we got" is that we are able to pay for the increase in medical costs, the increase in the number of people needing assistance, and the War on Terror. With the exception of the military, these increases are mostly in reaction to the changes in the economy, not due to new policies. Hopefully an improving economy will lift incomes and reduce the need for these programs.

politician 13y ago

If, once again, we're talking about a group of individuals that controls (once again!) over a third of the wealth in their respective countries, then shouldn't we conclude that money is a fairly poor form of rationing? Putin's policies show that "the rich" are no actual threat to government. Why would the IMF bother with this recommendation?

blisterpeanuts 13y ago

In the U.S., the top 10% earners pay 70% of federal taxes. The bottom 50% pay nothing at all (they do pay about 12% to state/local/sales taxes). Then we have business owners and majority share owners and the like, who are rich on paper, yet do not earn significantly more income than most middle class salary earners. Should they be paying out more taxes since they're in some kind of millionaire bracket, even though they're largely devoting their assets to employing people to produce goods and services? I realize these are over-simplified kinds of generalizations and there are undoubtedly very wealthy people and cash-rich entities that pay little or no income taxes or corporate taxes, thanks to offshoring their assets and other workarounds. But, I just don't see where all the money is, that's supposedly lying around, waiting to be scooped up by the tax man. In fact, the situation seems to be rather the opposite. Most of the money controlled by the rich in fact is being put to work in companies, and attempting to get at it would probably cause great damage to the economy. To my (supply sider) mind, a simpler and far more effective choice would be to cut government spending until outflow meets intake (and then go a few hundred billion farther, so that debts can be paid). Among other things, this might have a positive effect on business optimism, and we would experience an uptick in hiring for start-ups and established companies alike.

kaonashi 13y ago
>The bottom 50% pay nothing at all (they do pay about 12% to state/local/sales taxes). Bullshit. Not just bullshit, but pernicious bullshit. Payroll taxes account for the same amount of receipts as income taxes. Payroll taxes are extremely regressive. That's some mighty creative accounting where you ignore half of all tax receipts when talking about tax revenue. http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numbers/revenue.cfm http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numb... The other side of this coin is that tax dollars at the federal level are a returned IOU, they do nothing to fund the government.
bane 13y ago
> The bottom 50% pay nothing at all I've definitely spent significant portions of my life in the bottom 50% and I definitely paid taxes.
13y ago