11 ms·

What I learnt bootstrapping my startup from Thailand for six months

188 points by pieterhg 13y ago

practicalpants 13y ago
Ah, I'm so on the verge of doing this. I quit my programming day job a few weeks ago and really want to make this happen. However... I'm terrified of the SF real estate market when I return. I'm also torn about whether to give up my apartment or find someone to sublet (or AirBnB it?) to have something to return to. Any advice, from anyone here who knows SF/SV, or has done something like this, about the above, or about what I could do returning to an ungodly housing market, in terms of the time it will take to find something as well as the price, with myself not likely having more than a couple thousand in the bank? And let's say I have ~ $13k now, so maybe I could return with a good enough cushion...
- justincormack 13y ago
  If you are scared of a real estate market, then doing a startup is probably not for you.
  - practicalpants 13y ago
    I did my own startup for a year and a half. It's reasonable to fear running out of money and plan accordingly. Some practical tips for handling housing is what I was fishing for.
- homakov 13y ago
  Besides investors and startups SF is terrible for living. Why? Go to thai.
- manglav 13y ago
  I'm actually in the market for an apartment starting next month...if you'd like to email me I'd be happy to discuss with you. username at g
- rockyleal 13y ago
  Just for the record, what OP is doing is illegal. His main goal while in Thailand is work. By working while on a tourist visa he is breaking Thai law.
junto 13y ago
Interesting post. As someone who lives outside his homeland, and predominantly speaking a foreign language, I can completely identify with your comments about how hard it is to cope with the concept of being disconnected with your homeland's society and not fitting in with the new one. Slowly things have improved for me as I have learnt to speak the local language, but deep-down I still feel like an outsider. I have a sneaking suspicion that this feeling never goes away, and I'm learning to just accept it. Integration is hard. I imagine learning Thai is a much bigger challenge than a European learning French, German or Spanish for example. Good luck to you I say!
- pieterhg 13y ago
  OP here :) I didn't necessarily mean it as a bad thing. It helps yourself to become more independent and less of a follower of your particular society's group-think, potentially giving you more unique ideas.
  - junto 13y ago
    True. I guess it makes a difference if your stay is intended to be a permanent one or not! It sounds like yours is temporary, whilst mine is intended to be permanent.
- noisy_boy 13y ago
  Learning basic Thai is quite simple - you cover the basic food items, numbers and common touristy words. Things get difficult when you decide to read/write.
digitalnalogika 13y ago
Thanks for the post, I now feel like I want to do similar thing sometime in my life. Is there any other interesting, safe, cheap place where you could live comfortably using at most $1000/month?
- berntb 13y ago
  This has been discussed often, some web sites keep cost statistics. For example, Google: living costs london cluj (I was outsourced to Cluj, Transylvania in Romania. I recommend it. 250 Euro/month for a nice, central 50 m2 apartment. People are nice, it is safe. Different. Beautiful women. Mountains, but no sea. University city. The food is very good, but could be more international -- a few sushi places and one(!) Indian. If you want more info, add a comment and your email in your profile.) If I had a choice personally, I'd go for Japan. For culture/food.
  - bsullivan01 13y ago
    If I had a choice personally, I'd go for Japan. For culture/food. Isn't that too expensive? I have no first hand knowledge, just what I read sometimes about it
    - ido 13y ago
      Japan has gotten a lot less expensive in the past 10 years.
  - asveikau 13y ago
    I thought that maybe the Romanians pronounced the letter J similar to its original use in Latin; that consonant made when the letter i brushes up against another vowel, as in iudex, like an English Y. But no, I look it up and they pronounce it as [ʒ], almost like we do in English. Therefore, I will make my corny joke: you don't want your software written in a place that sounds so similar to "kludge". :-)
    - berntb 13y ago
bsullivan01 13y ago
Immigrant founders might also decide to go back to the motherland for a while if things get rough in USA.
erikb 13y ago
If you think you know the place after six month you are in for a loooot of surprises, e.g., culture shock, or to see that after some time you are not really a foreigner and not really a local anymore. You also have to apply to rules, just different ones from the locals. But that only happens after people learn to know you after some time.
shurcooL 13y ago
Very useful to know. It makes a lot of sense to use your savings to bootstrap your internet/tech startup in a place where living costs are much lower, but internet access is pretty much the same. The savings will last much longer, giving you more time to work.
scheff 13y ago
Great write up! I'm thinking of doing the exact same thing. A couple of questions - Why the limitation to being able to only do 6 months? Do they stop renewing your visa after that? Have you looked at other neighbouring countries like Laos, Burma and Cambodia for a similar arrangement?
- Radim 13y ago
  It's probably because the OP had a double entry tourist visa. You can renew easily -- or at least could, a few years ago. I lived in Thailand for two years, entirely on tourist visas. Let me just add there's a marked difference between how OP describes his Thailand experience, and living outside of start-up/expat communities.
  - scheff 13y ago
    care to elaborate?
    - Radim 13y ago
      Why not. There's plenty of more detailed info out there, and I don't claim to be any sort of expert after mere two years, but here's two stereotypical extremes: Tourist-eyes: beautiful beaches; nice weather; safe; cheap food; laid back, friendly smiling people -- PARADISE! Live-and-work-there-eyes: rampant bigotry and racism (common to most SE Asia); dishonesty ("losing face" and all, again shared across SEA and not specific to Thailand); nothing ever gets done (the famous wait-for-crisis management aka the reverse side of the laid back culture); encouragement of keeping in line and professional mediocrity; (lack of) quality healthcare; dirt; systemic corruption and mafia; massive drinking in connection with ubiquitous handguns; relationships aka love the farang cash machine; farangs always 2nd class citizens no matter what (land ownership &c) -- BUSINESS OWNER'S HELL! Now that's just to juxtapose two extremes, neither is "the truth". When it comes to running a business, beware of that viewpoint #2. Freelancers who just hang out with other freelancers on the beach for a few months don't need to care, of course :) For serious business, Malaysia is much more organized and welcoming. Hopefully I don't get downvoted for this paradise-shattering post -- I still have many Thai friends and I love the country despite all its problems.
znt 13y ago
The title says 300K + subscribers, but when I go to the YouTube channel at http://www.youtube.com/user/electromixshow http://www.youtube.com/user/electromixshow it says there are 38K subscribers. Am I missing something here?
- pieterhg 13y ago
  Hi znt, you're right, the aggregate of all my channels is 300,000 subscribers now. My biggest channel is here http://youtube.com/pandadnb http://youtube.com/pandadnb. I've removed the heading, since it might come across as unclear, thanks.
  - xSwag 13y ago
    Word of warning, 2 years ago I ran a large dubstep related channel which was shut down. Be very careful about copyrighted content, the record label will file dmca complaints even if you got permission from the artist! You only get so many warnings. I would even suggest having a backup channel and not to put all eggs in one basket!
    - pieterhg 13y ago
      Thanks xSwag, all my YouTube channels' content is licensed and legit. The artists and labels ask me to put it up. I've never put up anything I did not have permission to. Sorry to hear about your channel. YouTube copyright claims can be ruthless although it's getting better these days.
k-mcgrady 13y ago
Excellent post. I've been considering Thailand and Vietnam for a while as places to work remotely for 6-12 months.
jamornh 13y ago
Thai national here, and as a fellow bootstrapper I would have to agree with most of the points of the OP. The reason why I left my well-paid job in Singapore and come back to Thailand to bootstrap my startup is due to the much lower cost of living and un-tapped talent pool. I'd like to add that the quoted figure of $1,000 USD a month is rather high. Most Thais can get by with $500 USD. That is the current starting salary for undergraduates. Now, keep in mind that if you are a foreigner, there will definitely be a surcharge since it is expected that you are able to afford more. As a local, I can cheaply rent an apartment outside of Bangkok (granted without a pool) for $100-150 USD a month. If you include utilities, phone, and internet you might need around $250-$350 USD, and you will get air conditioning. EDIT: As for food, his mentioned price of 40 Baht for a bow of chicken rice which has now supposedly increased by 25%. It feels slightly over priced to me, but not by much. The average cost of a bow of food is still around 30-40 Baht ($1 USD to $1.33 USD) per serving and have not increased, as far as I can tell, for the 2 years that I have been back. So if you're pretty frugal, you can definitely get by with $5-7 USD a day for food + drinks. If you really want to go for "ramen diets" then you can definitely get by with lower IMO. The current going prices for co-working spaces in Thailand are around $7 - $10 a day, net, and most of these places open 7 days a week. But if you can work from home, you can ignore that cost. Regarding the OP's point about the startup scene, he is correct. It's very much in its infancy and the local work-force are not as familiar with the startup ecosystem and are very risk averse. To add to that, most employees will not understand how equity work and will prefer to work for a safer and more secure jobs. This is a cultural thing so pushing the startup mentality is still a big hurdle that the great people at Launchpad and HUBBA are trying their best to overcome. Overall I'm quite optimistic about the way Thailand is moving with regards to startups, but it is very much in its infancy and founders are not as well-informed. A lot of incubators and "startup schools" are in it for the fact that it seems like the cool thing to be doing, but most have no idea how to run one and no experience in the space. IMO, there isn't much right now that the founders can gain from the partnership since both sides are basically feeling their way around. In the end though, I can't recommend Thailand enough as a place that you should come and bootstrap just for the cost of living, wonderful culture, and an assortment of holiday locations. Although, as a Thai, I may be completely biased. EDIT: Of course, I'm not exactly familiar with the visa situation since I don't actually need it. Based on the OP, it seems pretty complicated, but still worth the hassle.
throwawayQWERTY 13y ago
Note: Using throwaway so my employer doesn't find out about my plan to eventually leave. Are there any places similar to this in USA? Cost of living around $1000 (give or take), good internet access, no car needed, decently cheap food and rent, and possibly an affordable coworking space? I'm looking to bootstrap an internet company and while I don't mind living abroad, I'd be much more comfortable here in the US, seeing as I've lived here my whole life.
- jeff_facebook 13y ago
  How can you be sure of that last sentence without having tried something different? Go to Thailand with no solid commitments and see how you like it. P.S. Beware of amorous ladyboys and STIs (not necessarily at the same time).
- larrykubin 13y ago
  Back in college I used to rent 1 bedroom apartment in Austin for $400 a month near campus. I never had a car there either. Prices have gone up some, but still you can find cheap apartments there.
- tomca32 13y ago
  It's possible even in NYC. Around Jamaica you can get a room for $400-$500. Although it's not an apartment, just a room in a big house, so you can't make parties and stuff but is otherwise quite comfortable. Going to Manhattan also doesn't take too much time. E train goes directly and is express so it's a 45-60 min commute. As for food, cook at home. If in Manhattan, there's a great $1 pizza on Bleecker St. Lots of free coworking spaces in Manhattan - Wix for example. I wouldn't call it a luxurious life by any stretch of imagination, but it's doable to live in NY for $1000 a month and not really feel poor (or it could be just a story I tell to myself to feel better).
  - diziet 13y ago
    You're much better finding a room somewhere further in Long Island and taking LIRR to the city than the E train!
- 13y ago
stratosvoukel 13y ago
1000$ is supposed to be enough to live in lots of european countries as well. Eg. Estonia, Greece, Austria
- javert 13y ago
  I found that number to be pretty depressing. I think I could get somewhere pretty close to that, here in North Carolina, USA.
  - a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
    In the original post the point was raised that at that cost of living you don't have to lift a finger. All your cleaning, laundry, and cooking are done by others. It's trivially easy to find a really nice space to rent in the USA for $500 or so. The catch is you'll still be doing all your own cooking and cleaning. And you'll be surrounded by hicks.
    - javert 13y ago
      I think your hicks comment is unnecessary and incorrect, but otherwise, this is a good point.
- jamornh 13y ago
  I think that number is only if you're living very very comfortably. Personally, on a normal standard of living, I can get by with around $500 USD a month, and that's normal 3 meals a day with internet, phone, apartment (no pool or facilities.) Street food, normal portions are going around $1 to $1.5 USD so it's pretty cheap. Now of course, you might be able to only afford to go to socialize at bars and restaurants once a month or else you'll blow that budget, but it's possible.
  - RomanPushkin 13y ago
    Would you please tell more? Country/city? Weather, visas, etc? Thanks!
jeff_facebook 13y ago
Cool story bro. Now try getting a long-term visa. In short: they don't want you.
robertlf 13y ago
Very informative post. I only have two questions. First, how difficult it is to get a good Internet connection there? Can you buy a "hotspot" device? Also, what about healthcare? If you get sick, can you get access to good medical care at a reasonable price?
- pieterhg 13y ago
  You can get a 3G data card for $20/m from TRUE. That gives you fast 3G in all major city areas, and free ridiculously fast Wi-Fi all-over Bangkok. I'd upload 2GB videos for my YouTube channel daily on those connections. If there was no Wi-Fi, I'd tether my MBP to my iPhone's 3G connection. The network was always faster than I've ever experienced in Amsterdam. I can not advice about your particular healthcare situation, but I'm a Dutch national on a standard Netherlands healthcare plan. That means I have worldwide coverage and all treatments are covered up to the price that the same treatment would cost at home. The Thai private hospitals are usually cheaper than those in my country while offering a ridiculously luxurious service. That means I pay nothing. Fortunately, I haven't stayed there a lot. Only once, for food poisoning, when I visited Thailand a few years ago.
- kordless 13y ago
  I went last December and bought a SIM for $30 for the month. We were getting about 10Mbps down most places, sometimes higher. As pieterhg mentions, there is wifi all over Bangkok. I wouldn't suggest spending a ton of time there though - much cooler places if you get out of the big city/tourist destinations. I'll also add the Thai people are absolutely delightful. I've never met such positive happy people.
uladzislau 13y ago
Any language barrier issues in Thailand? "English is a mandatory school subject, but the number of fluent speakers remains very low, especially outside the cities." - Wikipedia.
- pieterhg 13y ago
  Yes, from what I've heard, most do learn it in school but they don't practice it. So most can speak very rudimentary English but that's about it. The university-educated and higher society do speak English a lot better. In a city like Bangkok, with its international allure, they also speak it a lot better. The further you go outside the big cities, the less they speak it. Kind of like most developing nations. I got by well though, by learning some basic Thai phrases and lots of hand gesturing and pointing.
- jamornh 13y ago
  Personally I think this depends largely on what types of community you're going to be around the majority of the time. If you're talking about living day to day, ordering food and getting around, you won't need much Thai to actually live here. Ordering food will require some pointing and sign languages at street food stores (most of them understand English numbers + sign language), but at restaurants in malls, English is "well-enough" understood and you won't have any problems (or they'll call the manager to talk to you.) Now of course, if you're in the startup scene, you're probably going to know some locals that can speak both languages well and are willing to help you around, however, you should alway try to learn the local language enough to get by on a daily basis. In the startup community and the white collar working population, we understand English well enough to understand what you're saying but maybe not converse with you fluently 100% of the time. EDIT: I'm only referring to Bangkok in this case.
RomanPushkin 13y ago
> The enterprise loves C# coders. But that’s not necessarily the best language for a startup stack. Why? It's quite easy, much more powerful, performance is great! Jeffrey Richter in his book "CLR via C#" says it's often more fasten than even compiled C/C++. Have you heard about Entity Framework and ASP.Net MVC? It's growing like a mad thing, a lotta features, improvements and so on. Maybe the license price is high? Yep, but with EF you can switch MS SQL database to any other one. And, moreover, you can obtain a license for free on bizspark. And, for sure, you can switch to Mono if you prefer Linux or Mac. BTW, you comparing "proprietary language C#" to Java, but Java is by Oracle ;) PS http://net.tutsplus.com/articles/editorials/why-many-developers-hate-asp-net-and-why-they-are-wrong/ http://net.tutsplus.com/articles/editorials/why-many-develop...
- jamornh 13y ago
  Regarding this, you can also even get started for free by joining microsoft's bizspark program. Since they already know the tech, and its being produced cheap by Microsoft for start ups, I'm guessing most will figure that its worth it to just stick with C#.
- fingerprinter 13y ago
  I've always liked C#, and even like Visual Studio to some degree, but I would never develop it for anything other than a hobby application. Why? Windows. I'm not going to be tied to a an entire ecosystem like that. If MS was serious about being developer friendly, really serious, they would not tie developers to Windows. It might not make the most strategic sense, but in the day and age of the cloud and big clusters of no-cost image spinups, Windows doesn't make sense. And, no, Mono is not a real alternative. There's too many good languages and frameworks to be fiddling with Mono in production.
- djrobstep 13y ago
  As somebody who has administered Mono apps in production, Mono is a huge pain in the arse. This was a year or two ago so mono may have improved, but you're always going to be somewhat behind the cutting edge, and you'll be suffering through much more sysadmin headaches than if you were running a python app. This essentially means you've got to stick with Windows if you want to run C#. Any why would you tie yourself to a dying ecosystem like that?
EarthLaunch 13y ago
Be careful about that cultural isolation. I'm an arch-introvert with mostly online friendships. I lived in a small mountain community alone for a year and was happy enough. But I tried working from Ukraine for 3 months, and although it was fascinating, the cultural isolation made me leave. It's a strange feeling, almost like you aren't on the same plane as the society you're in, or as if you're watching from a bubble.
- iambateman 13y ago
  cultural isolation is painful, even for introverts (I'm with ya). It's bizarre to watch people, and see them as fundamentally different, separate, and other from you. The chasm is tough.
- yashodhan 13y ago
  Cultural isolation defines me as a person. So no problems there. How did you like Ukraine? Where were you based? Was it cheap and comparable to Thailand for a place to bootstrap in?
  - EarthLaunch 13y ago
    The isolation is extreme when it's an unknown language and non-"western" culture. Though I would still consider Ukraine relatively western. I was in Luhans'k, an industrial city with a college district, located near the eastern border with Russia. I worked remotely from a euro-style ($1200/mo) flat. It was 4 years ago. I loved walking around the city in the snow, looking at shops and markets. The local tech scene was pretty much dead, at least for a foreigner who didn't speak the language. It might be as cheap as Thailand, but probably less accessible and fun. I have yet to visit Asia. I couldn't handle continuing to bootstrap there because of my isolation. Edit: I think you'd have MUCH better luck in Kiev.
    - phillc73 13y ago
      I believe even better chances in Lviv, in terms of not feeling so isolated. The West of Ukraine is more orientated to the European Union, than the East of Ukraine, which looks towards Russia and has a large ethnic Russian population. My, albeit brief, experience in Lviv was that enough people spoke at least basic English enabling me to communicate. Knowing German also helped in many cases, as did learning at least the basics of Ukrainian for simple daily situations. Housing is expensive, if you want something other than a badly fading Soviet era apartment on the edge of town. Food and entertainment is reasonably cheap.
kirk21 13y ago
Awesome! How did your family/friends react? What is your next stop? Moving to Berlin next month to bootstrap.
- pieterhg 13y ago
  They are quite used to me moving around a lot and just want to see me happy. I am now in Saigon and my next stop is probably Phnom Penh and then celebrate NYE in Hong Kong. Berlin is awesome! What are you working on?
  - yla92 13y ago
    Quite nice to read your story. Btw, it will be great if you can make it to Yangon/Rangoon too. (: (I am from Yangon)
  - eriksank 13y ago
    I live and work from Phnom Penh. Cambodia is much more welcoming than Thailand. I wonder why anybody would actually even consider Thailand? Thai ruk Thai. Thailand for the Thai people. I totally agree. Anybody who isn't Thai should never set a foot there.
MichaelTieso 13y ago
I've been traveling around the world for the last 5 years and have started various businesses on the road. It's been an incredible experience. I just moved to Sayulita, Mexico a week ago where I plan to finish my new startup ForkFox.com. I'll be here for 6-months. The downside is that there isn't much for resources. I'm basically here to just focus on programming but in paradise. Having been to Thailand several times, the food there is AMAZING.
uladzislau 13y ago
Other post by OP is very interesting and helps to ponder upon such questions as: 1. Why it's cheaper over there? 2. What are the downsides and hidden pitfalls? http://levels.io/make-money-where-prices-are-high-spend-it-where-prices-are-low-does-income-arbitrage-work/ http://levels.io/make-money-where-prices-are-high-spend-it-w...
homakov 13y ago
If you dont like sex tourism it is ur mental problem. Feel free to agitate in your europez but please leave my thailand as is. Every girl has a right to do anything and its not your business.
- homakov 13y ago
  Ps. Traveled around the world now living in pattaya. Asq questions.
  - Pinatubo 13y ago
    Do you honestly believe those prostitutes enjoy sleeping with people like you?
    - parennoob 13y ago
      If you think enjoyment is a prerequisite to doing a job, then there are several people working on crufty "enterprise" Java-based systems that would love to benefit from your crusade.
      - homakov 13y ago
        That. Do you honestly enjoy writing PHP? Likely no. Nobody cares
      - Pinatubo 13y ago
        My question was in response to this post by the same person: >"If you dont like sex tourism it is ur mental problem. Feel free to agitate in your europez but please leave my thailand as is. Every girl has a right to do anything and its not your business." That seemed to imply that the prostitutes had willingly chosen their profession, which led to my question.
        homakov 13y ago
        Oh so you imply they all was forced? Hell no. It is just better than clerq in 7 11 for 5 times less salary
gosukiwi 13y ago
Living in Argentina is quite cheap too if you are from North America or Europe, the currency is devaluating so hard dollar is actually 10 to 1, meaning you can rent a nice place for $200 (no pool just a normal appartment), good thing is though, there are no prostitutes and such, and you wont get charged so much for beeing foreigner, Argentina is full of europeans forgeigners so nobody can really say if you are from Argentina or not unless you are asian or black, and even so, people just dont care. Now dont go to the north though, I'm talkign south of Buenos Aires and below that is a whole different story xD
- hauk1 13y ago
  Why not north?
  - gosukiwi 13y ago
    Well... In a nutshell the north is poor and south is rich and full of international tourism. It's something weird of Argentina as a country, 50% of the population lives only in the capital, Buenos Aires. The capital has always had a lot of power (they used to have access to the only port of the city, so they kept ALL the taxes money, while all other provinces received none and were not allowed to have a port). So, only people in Buenos Aires were rich, everyone else was poor, what made the south "not poor" is the fact that basically nobody lived there (because of "La conquista del desierto" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_the_Desert http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_the_Desert), people moved south from Buenos Aires to find new customers, find new oportunities and just avoid the "city life". Also, the south is full of international tourism, cities like Bariloche are full of immigrants and a beautiful Apine-styled architecture, tourists and outsiders are treated quite nicely :) The north on the other hand has a very native south american culture as there are a lot of immigrants from Bolivia and Peru which have a strong native south american lineage, people is closed-minded and isn't really used to outsiders.
    - hauk1 13y ago
      Great thanks! Always wanted to go to Argentina.
johnnyfd 13y ago
I made Panda in Chiang Mai at the co-working office space, Punspace. I too have bootstrapped my business while working here on the cheap. Since I was on a budget I was living off of $600US a month, I authored the book "12 Weeks in Thailand" base on how I quit my job, moved to Thailand to live on the cheap. Now that my business is successful, my budget is closer to $1,500 a month and I'm living a great life in Thailand. I have some video tours of life in Thailand at http://www.JohnnyFD.com http://www.JohnnyFD.com - my blog
cyrilga 13y ago
Amazing article! I am doing the same (bootstrapping from Asia) and would agree with almost anything but the budget. I am currently in Ko Tao (=paradise) and during low season, you get a comfortable room for 8000 baht / month ($300) 5 min from the beach. In Chiang Mai I was renting a large bedroom on Airbnb for $9/day. Vientiane as well is a good option, they love foreigners there and there are a lot of french expats. I would stay away from Vietnam (Saigon and Hanoi) as you have constantly to be on your guards unless you go to Hoi An or Nha Trang. Has anybody tried the Philippines?
- cyrilga 13y ago
  Of course during low season, there is quite a bit of rain, which helps focusing on developing your startup and not going to the beach.
  - macarthy12 13y ago
    But downpours = bad internet in Thailand :-)
- rajeemcariazo 13y ago
  Philippines is a good country for bootstrapping, there are plenty of good English speakers and low cost of living.
mathattack 13y ago
How is the education there? I found locals to complain about the talent the schools produced. That said, it's a wonderful country. Avoid the tourist traps and you miss much of the sleazy side. If I were 23 I would take it over Iowa ten times out of ten.
boy88 13y ago
just to confirm if I go to Thailand and want to do a business road trip wherein i'm speaking at say a meetup.com event, I can get into trouble?
boy88 13y ago
just to confirm if I go to Thailand and want to do a business road trip wherein i'm speaking at say a meetup.com event, I can get into trouble?
mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
I've lived and built two companies in Thailand over the last 14 years. Before your pop your Macbook Air in a backpack, read my points. 1. Bangkok is not cheap. If you want to have a life that resembles anything you're used to coming from a Western country, you're going to live in Bangkok and you're going to live in a relatively expensive part of the city. Yes, you can live in a concrete block with plastic furniture and eat noodles on the street every day. You can probably get by for not much more than $1k doing so. When you can no longer stomach that, you'll find the city is quite expensive. A decent apartment in a favorable part of town will cost you $1300 - $2000 per month. I don't mean a family-sized place, I mean a 1 bedroom with a "livable" amount of room and furniture that doesn't give you the willies. Once you're sick of your local noodle vendor you'll find food prices quite high as well. My wife and I spend more on groceries than we did when we lived in SF (we shopped at the Safeway in the financial district). As for restaurants: We grabbed two meals outside yesterday. One was dim sum that came to about $30 for the two of us. The other was a tonkatsu place and the bill came to about $25. While that's probably cheaper than the US (for the same quality) that's hardly a meal for $1. We spend over $100 for a meal often. I don't know anyone (Thai or foreign) that would consider that overly expensive. Wine and imported beer are expensive and the taxes are going up. American craft beer is going to go up to $10/bottle direct from the distributor. If you can stomach the local swill (think Budweiser without the quality control) knock yourself out. When you're sick of taking taxis and the BTS/MRT, have fun buying a car at 50% - 300% above US prices. 2. Visas are not easy. If you really want to fake it here it means constantly traveling in and out of the country. The problem with that (beyond the fact that it usually means traveling to the least interesting parts of the surrounding countries) is that they limit it to a certain number of tourist visas for every six month period or something similar (I can't remember the actual rules, sorry). The common way around this is to use a "visa service" which basically means you're paying someone to bribe someone to look the other way. It's not only illegal, the rules for it change seemingly month to month, based on whoever ends up in a position of power in what embassy. To do it properly: a) register a business with the requisite capital and Thai shareholders, b) get the appropriate visa c) get a work permit. I've been through it. It's not cheap or easy. To not do it properly means breaking the law in a country where you most likely don't speak the language. Have fun with that. 3. Sex isn't everywhere. My wife and I go out for drinks 1.5 times a month and I can't remember the last time I saw a prostitute. If you're going somewhere with a free flow of hookers then you're probably seeking that out. I see young people do this quite often -- the only difference between these young people and so-called "sexpats" is that young people often go "ironically". They're all equally as stupid. 4. The local talent pool is mixed. The entrepreneurs here are generally managers, not doers, so you're probably never going to find a technical co-founder. Programming/technical ability on the whole is quite low. Try browsing the website of any publicly traded Thai company and you'll see what I mean. It is possible to find good graphic designers, administrative types, etc. Salaries are low here so that could possibly be an advantage. Having said that, I know people who have built large tech companies (100+ employees) and the consensus is that the disadvantages here outweigh the advantages. Most people I know in tech here outsource to Eastern Europe or somewhere else. Investors are hard to find and mostly unsophisticated in relation to tech. Tech-savvy ones do exist, but they generally buy companies outright and keep you on as a glorified project manager. 5. When you're ready to put down roots, you'll find doing things legally is an expensive pain in the ass and -- here's the kicker -- you'll have to give up 51% of your company to one or more Thai people. If it's not someone you've known for a decade then, well, good luck with that. Yes, there are ways around this but they require you to put your company in a legal gray area. 6. Inflation isn't rampant. Cost of living has gone up considerably on the scale of decades but it's pretty hard to notice in a few months.
mattront 13y ago
Education visa is a good option for staying long-term in Thailand. You just need to enrol into a course (usually 60 to 180 hour Thai language or English language course) and that will give you 15 months visa that can be extended for up to 5 years. Total cost for 15 months is around 1000 USD and you don't have to leave the country every couple of months. Just Google "thailand education visa". It's also a good way to learn something while staying in Thailand.
- moepstar 13y ago
  Does that have any limitations, though? Like an age limit?
  - mattront 13y ago
    No age limit. Most courses are run by small private schools that are flexible with how and when you actually study. Education visa can be arranged before coming to Thailand, or for 500 USD you can change your tourist visa to EDU visa while in Thailand.
imperio59 13y ago
The article seems to imply that it is impossible to live for less than $1000 a month (internet included) in the US in a remote area where you can focus. I regularly travel out to Eastern Washington (close to the border by Montana) and the area is very rural and prices relatively cheap for rent (and house prices are not unreasonable if you're looking to buy). No one will come bug you if you live in the woods, and Satellite internet (while not perfect) is decent as long as you're not doing anything too bandwidth intensive. You can also always live near a bigger city and get Cable internet. As far as food costs go, if you can fish, hunt and grow a vegetable garden, you can be self-sufficient most of the year. I'm not saying everyone needs to go out and live that lifestyle, but I just wanted to challenge the assumption that you couldn't live for less than $1000 a month in the US. A lot of people do, and aren't necessarily poor or bad off either.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  I hope you mean Idaho and not Montana. Spokane is cheap but not that cheap, in the more rural communities like Newport, you could probably do $1000/month with lots of work cutting wood and such. If you want cheaper, cross the border to Idaho or Montana, but the farther away we get from infrastructure, things actually become more expensive, not less.
  - imperio59 13y ago
    I did mean Idaho, Colville/Metaline Falls area. It's true once you get far enough the cost of living goes up in a way, but I've found those parts to still be fairly cheap cost of living (on the face of it), assuming you already own land.
scheff 13y ago
My small amount of research discovered that you can live in a serviced hotel room for between 15,000 and 30,000 THB per month, which is $500 - $1000 USD. This was in Chiang Mai. I explored a couple of different hotels. You can get serious discounts for booking a room for 3, 6 months. Combine that with eating out for every meal (instead of grocery shopping and cooking for yourself) and it's an incredibly cheap option. Meals are as cheap as $1 each.
RisingInflation 13y ago
Inflation rising... I don't know what you are on about. Check your facts laddy :) http://www.tradingeconomics.com/thailand/inflation-cpi http://www.tradingeconomics.com/thailand/inflation-cpi Interesting story, however.
rogerthatplease 13y ago
On one hand, it's a great article. On the other hand, it's really misleading! Lots of commenters in here would agree with "levels," but that's only because they are like-minded. You can easily live on 500-600 euros per month, stay in beach bungalows, rented houses, or amazing bamboo houses where the owners bring you fruit every morning, and that includes unlimited 3G internet, the wireless internet they already have on site, and your bus and plane tickets around Asia. No offense, but it's a little bit of a shame to accidentally mislead people on how much the costs are (a pool??!?!?!), and it's also a shame that the author didn't check out Malaysia, which is far less touristy, has almost no sex tourism, and has some really incredible places (with internet). Shop at the markets. Eat at night markets, food stalls, and normal thai restaurants (but proper restos... not all stalls)... we went out with some local friends in Bangkok, ate famously, and the bill came to like 8 dollars (three different restos). Look for places like Chiang Mai... but also, move about yo! We did 3 weeks at a time in each place, moving down through sukhothai, ahyuthaya, etc., worked with laser focus, and spent way, way less money. Really not much need for an incubator if you're confident in what you're doing.
genX 13y ago
Should be called "When I take my laptop to country "x" I call it bootstrapping a company, and now I will school you with my vast experience gained over 6 months in a hostel".....get a life, and a real job, you annoying tourist with a laptop
umphetico 13y ago
damn I know I wouldn't be able to focus on my work if I lived in Thailand...and it's definitely not the women
chespirito 13y ago
One qualifier to: "Thailand’s government is wholly responsible for this situation" (viz. rampant sex tourism). I would clarify that it is fully but not uniquely responsible. Sort of like if two men set out to murder a third and they both poison his drink on the same night, they are both fully but not uniquely responsible for his death. Analogously, sex tourists share responsibility, as perhaps do other governments whose actions influence the kind of governments that Thailand is likely to have. Just a minor point of mine on a side-observation! Otherwise, lots of insights I enjoyed. I hadn't given much thought to start-up culture in SE Asia. One thing that doesn't get mentioned is the language: Did you get by exclusively with English (and Dutch, lots of ex-colonies being out that way)? If you're serious about growing a start-up over a long stretch of time in Thailand it seems like you would want to have some Thai, if nothing else to draw from a greater pool of local talent when recruiting.
mr-happy 13y ago
Is the quality of hackers good in Thailand? I'm particularly thinking about skills to deal with javascript, node.js and MongoDB. I've heard mixed reviews in the past - and it's been touched on a few times here - but would be great to hear what the latest situation is.
hmkcode 13y ago
So interesting..especially the article you wrote about how this article has attracted 15K visitors to your site. Thanks

188 points by pieterhg 13y ago

Ah, I'm so on the verge of doing this. I quit my programming day job a few weeks ago and really want to make this happen. However... I'm terrified of the SF real estate market when I return. I'm also torn about whether to give up my apartment or find someone to sublet (or AirBnB it?) to have something to return to. Any advice, from anyone here who knows SF/SV, or has done something like this, about the above, or about what I could do returning to an ungodly housing market, in terms of the time it will take to find something as well as the price, with myself not likely having more than a couple thousand in the bank? And let's say I have ~ $13k now, so maybe I could return with a good enough cushion...

justincormack 13y ago
If you are scared of a real estate market, then doing a startup is probably not for you.
- practicalpants 13y ago
  I did my own startup for a year and a half. It's reasonable to fear running out of money and plan accordingly. Some practical tips for handling housing is what I was fishing for.
homakov 13y ago
Besides investors and startups SF is terrible for living. Why? Go to thai.
manglav 13y ago
I'm actually in the market for an apartment starting next month...if you'd like to email me I'd be happy to discuss with you. username at g
rockyleal 13y ago
Just for the record, what OP is doing is illegal. His main goal while in Thailand is work. By working while on a tourist visa he is breaking Thai law.

junto 13y ago

Interesting post. As someone who lives outside his homeland, and predominantly speaking a foreign language, I can completely identify with your comments about how hard it is to cope with the concept of being disconnected with your homeland's society and not fitting in with the new one. Slowly things have improved for me as I have learnt to speak the local language, but deep-down I still feel like an outsider. I have a sneaking suspicion that this feeling never goes away, and I'm learning to just accept it. Integration is hard. I imagine learning Thai is a much bigger challenge than a European learning French, German or Spanish for example. Good luck to you I say!

pieterhg 13y ago
OP here :) I didn't necessarily mean it as a bad thing. It helps yourself to become more independent and less of a follower of your particular society's group-think, potentially giving you more unique ideas.
- junto 13y ago
  True. I guess it makes a difference if your stay is intended to be a permanent one or not! It sounds like yours is temporary, whilst mine is intended to be permanent.
noisy_boy 13y ago
Learning basic Thai is quite simple - you cover the basic food items, numbers and common touristy words. Things get difficult when you decide to read/write.

digitalnalogika 13y ago

Thanks for the post, I now feel like I want to do similar thing sometime in my life. Is there any other interesting, safe, cheap place where you could live comfortably using at most $1000/month?

berntb 13y ago
This has been discussed often, some web sites keep cost statistics. For example, Google: living costs london cluj (I was outsourced to Cluj, Transylvania in Romania. I recommend it. 250 Euro/month for a nice, central 50 m2 apartment. People are nice, it is safe. Different. Beautiful women. Mountains, but no sea. University city. The food is very good, but could be more international -- a few sushi places and one(!) Indian. If you want more info, add a comment and your email in your profile.) If I had a choice personally, I'd go for Japan. For culture/food.
- bsullivan01 13y ago
  If I had a choice personally, I'd go for Japan. For culture/food. Isn't that too expensive? I have no first hand knowledge, just what I read sometimes about it
  - ido 13y ago
    Japan has gotten a lot less expensive in the past 10 years.
- asveikau 13y ago
  I thought that maybe the Romanians pronounced the letter J similar to its original use in Latin; that consonant made when the letter i brushes up against another vowel, as in iudex, like an English Y. But no, I look it up and they pronounce it as [ʒ], almost like we do in English. Therefore, I will make my corny joke: you don't want your software written in a place that sounds so similar to "kludge". :-)
  - berntb 13y ago

bsullivan01 13y ago

Immigrant founders might also decide to go back to the motherland for a while if things get rough in USA.

erikb 13y ago

If you think you know the place after six month you are in for a loooot of surprises, e.g., culture shock, or to see that after some time you are not really a foreigner and not really a local anymore. You also have to apply to rules, just different ones from the locals. But that only happens after people learn to know you after some time.

shurcooL 13y ago

Very useful to know. It makes a lot of sense to use your savings to bootstrap your internet/tech startup in a place where living costs are much lower, but internet access is pretty much the same. The savings will last much longer, giving you more time to work.

scheff 13y ago

Great write up! I'm thinking of doing the exact same thing. A couple of questions - Why the limitation to being able to only do 6 months? Do they stop renewing your visa after that? Have you looked at other neighbouring countries like Laos, Burma and Cambodia for a similar arrangement?

Radim 13y ago
It's probably because the OP had a double entry tourist visa. You can renew easily -- or at least could, a few years ago. I lived in Thailand for two years, entirely on tourist visas. Let me just add there's a marked difference between how OP describes his Thailand experience, and living outside of start-up/expat communities.
- scheff 13y ago
  care to elaborate?
  - Radim 13y ago
    Why not. There's plenty of more detailed info out there, and I don't claim to be any sort of expert after mere two years, but here's two stereotypical extremes: Tourist-eyes: beautiful beaches; nice weather; safe; cheap food; laid back, friendly smiling people -- PARADISE! Live-and-work-there-eyes: rampant bigotry and racism (common to most SE Asia); dishonesty ("losing face" and all, again shared across SEA and not specific to Thailand); nothing ever gets done (the famous wait-for-crisis management aka the reverse side of the laid back culture); encouragement of keeping in line and professional mediocrity; (lack of) quality healthcare; dirt; systemic corruption and mafia; massive drinking in connection with ubiquitous handguns; relationships aka love the farang cash machine; farangs always 2nd class citizens no matter what (land ownership &c) -- BUSINESS OWNER'S HELL! Now that's just to juxtapose two extremes, neither is "the truth". When it comes to running a business, beware of that viewpoint #2. Freelancers who just hang out with other freelancers on the beach for a few months don't need to care, of course :) For serious business, Malaysia is much more organized and welcoming. Hopefully I don't get downvoted for this paradise-shattering post -- I still have many Thai friends and I love the country despite all its problems.

znt 13y ago

The title says 300K + subscribers, but when I go to the YouTube channel at http://www.youtube.com/user/electromixshow http://www.youtube.com/user/electromixshow it says there are 38K subscribers. Am I missing something here?

pieterhg 13y ago
Hi znt, you're right, the aggregate of all my channels is 300,000 subscribers now. My biggest channel is here http://youtube.com/pandadnb http://youtube.com/pandadnb. I've removed the heading, since it might come across as unclear, thanks.
- xSwag 13y ago
  Word of warning, 2 years ago I ran a large dubstep related channel which was shut down. Be very careful about copyrighted content, the record label will file dmca complaints even if you got permission from the artist! You only get so many warnings. I would even suggest having a backup channel and not to put all eggs in one basket!
  - pieterhg 13y ago
    Thanks xSwag, all my YouTube channels' content is licensed and legit. The artists and labels ask me to put it up. I've never put up anything I did not have permission to. Sorry to hear about your channel. YouTube copyright claims can be ruthless although it's getting better these days.

k-mcgrady 13y ago

Excellent post. I've been considering Thailand and Vietnam for a while as places to work remotely for 6-12 months.

jamornh 13y ago

Thai national here, and as a fellow bootstrapper I would have to agree with most of the points of the OP. The reason why I left my well-paid job in Singapore and come back to Thailand to bootstrap my startup is due to the much lower cost of living and un-tapped talent pool. I'd like to add that the quoted figure of $1,000 USD a month is rather high. Most Thais can get by with $500 USD. That is the current starting salary for undergraduates. Now, keep in mind that if you are a foreigner, there will definitely be a surcharge since it is expected that you are able to afford more. As a local, I can cheaply rent an apartment outside of Bangkok (granted without a pool) for $100-150 USD a month. If you include utilities, phone, and internet you might need around $250-$350 USD, and you will get air conditioning. EDIT: As for food, his mentioned price of 40 Baht for a bow of chicken rice which has now supposedly increased by 25%. It feels slightly over priced to me, but not by much. The average cost of a bow of food is still around 30-40 Baht ($1 USD to $1.33 USD) per serving and have not increased, as far as I can tell, for the 2 years that I have been back. So if you're pretty frugal, you can definitely get by with $5-7 USD a day for food + drinks. If you really want to go for "ramen diets" then you can definitely get by with lower IMO. The current going prices for co-working spaces in Thailand are around $7 - $10 a day, net, and most of these places open 7 days a week. But if you can work from home, you can ignore that cost. Regarding the OP's point about the startup scene, he is correct. It's very much in its infancy and the local work-force are not as familiar with the startup ecosystem and are very risk averse. To add to that, most employees will not understand how equity work and will prefer to work for a safer and more secure jobs. This is a cultural thing so pushing the startup mentality is still a big hurdle that the great people at Launchpad and HUBBA are trying their best to overcome. Overall I'm quite optimistic about the way Thailand is moving with regards to startups, but it is very much in its infancy and founders are not as well-informed. A lot of incubators and "startup schools" are in it for the fact that it seems like the cool thing to be doing, but most have no idea how to run one and no experience in the space. IMO, there isn't much right now that the founders can gain from the partnership since both sides are basically feeling their way around. In the end though, I can't recommend Thailand enough as a place that you should come and bootstrap just for the cost of living, wonderful culture, and an assortment of holiday locations. Although, as a Thai, I may be completely biased. EDIT: Of course, I'm not exactly familiar with the visa situation since I don't actually need it. Based on the OP, it seems pretty complicated, but still worth the hassle.

throwawayQWERTY 13y ago

Note: Using throwaway so my employer doesn't find out about my plan to eventually leave. Are there any places similar to this in USA? Cost of living around $1000 (give or take), good internet access, no car needed, decently cheap food and rent, and possibly an affordable coworking space? I'm looking to bootstrap an internet company and while I don't mind living abroad, I'd be much more comfortable here in the US, seeing as I've lived here my whole life.

jeff_facebook 13y ago
How can you be sure of that last sentence without having tried something different? Go to Thailand with no solid commitments and see how you like it. P.S. Beware of amorous ladyboys and STIs (not necessarily at the same time).
larrykubin 13y ago
Back in college I used to rent 1 bedroom apartment in Austin for $400 a month near campus. I never had a car there either. Prices have gone up some, but still you can find cheap apartments there.
tomca32 13y ago
It's possible even in NYC. Around Jamaica you can get a room for $400-$500. Although it's not an apartment, just a room in a big house, so you can't make parties and stuff but is otherwise quite comfortable. Going to Manhattan also doesn't take too much time. E train goes directly and is express so it's a 45-60 min commute. As for food, cook at home. If in Manhattan, there's a great $1 pizza on Bleecker St. Lots of free coworking spaces in Manhattan - Wix for example. I wouldn't call it a luxurious life by any stretch of imagination, but it's doable to live in NY for $1000 a month and not really feel poor (or it could be just a story I tell to myself to feel better).
- diziet 13y ago
  You're much better finding a room somewhere further in Long Island and taking LIRR to the city than the E train!
13y ago

stratosvoukel 13y ago

1000$ is supposed to be enough to live in lots of european countries as well. Eg. Estonia, Greece, Austria

javert 13y ago
I found that number to be pretty depressing. I think I could get somewhere pretty close to that, here in North Carolina, USA.
- a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
  In the original post the point was raised that at that cost of living you don't have to lift a finger. All your cleaning, laundry, and cooking are done by others. It's trivially easy to find a really nice space to rent in the USA for $500 or so. The catch is you'll still be doing all your own cooking and cleaning. And you'll be surrounded by hicks.
  - javert 13y ago
    I think your hicks comment is unnecessary and incorrect, but otherwise, this is a good point.
jamornh 13y ago
I think that number is only if you're living very very comfortably. Personally, on a normal standard of living, I can get by with around $500 USD a month, and that's normal 3 meals a day with internet, phone, apartment (no pool or facilities.) Street food, normal portions are going around $1 to $1.5 USD so it's pretty cheap. Now of course, you might be able to only afford to go to socialize at bars and restaurants once a month or else you'll blow that budget, but it's possible.
- RomanPushkin 13y ago
  Would you please tell more? Country/city? Weather, visas, etc? Thanks!

jeff_facebook 13y ago

Cool story bro. Now try getting a long-term visa. In short: they don't want you.

robertlf 13y ago

Very informative post. I only have two questions. First, how difficult it is to get a good Internet connection there? Can you buy a "hotspot" device? Also, what about healthcare? If you get sick, can you get access to good medical care at a reasonable price?

pieterhg 13y ago
You can get a 3G data card for $20/m from TRUE. That gives you fast 3G in all major city areas, and free ridiculously fast Wi-Fi all-over Bangkok. I'd upload 2GB videos for my YouTube channel daily on those connections. If there was no Wi-Fi, I'd tether my MBP to my iPhone's 3G connection. The network was always faster than I've ever experienced in Amsterdam. I can not advice about your particular healthcare situation, but I'm a Dutch national on a standard Netherlands healthcare plan. That means I have worldwide coverage and all treatments are covered up to the price that the same treatment would cost at home. The Thai private hospitals are usually cheaper than those in my country while offering a ridiculously luxurious service. That means I pay nothing. Fortunately, I haven't stayed there a lot. Only once, for food poisoning, when I visited Thailand a few years ago.
kordless 13y ago
I went last December and bought a SIM for $30 for the month. We were getting about 10Mbps down most places, sometimes higher. As pieterhg mentions, there is wifi all over Bangkok. I wouldn't suggest spending a ton of time there though - much cooler places if you get out of the big city/tourist destinations. I'll also add the Thai people are absolutely delightful. I've never met such positive happy people.

uladzislau 13y ago

Any language barrier issues in Thailand? "English is a mandatory school subject, but the number of fluent speakers remains very low, especially outside the cities." - Wikipedia.

pieterhg 13y ago
Yes, from what I've heard, most do learn it in school but they don't practice it. So most can speak very rudimentary English but that's about it. The university-educated and higher society do speak English a lot better. In a city like Bangkok, with its international allure, they also speak it a lot better. The further you go outside the big cities, the less they speak it. Kind of like most developing nations. I got by well though, by learning some basic Thai phrases and lots of hand gesturing and pointing.
jamornh 13y ago
Personally I think this depends largely on what types of community you're going to be around the majority of the time. If you're talking about living day to day, ordering food and getting around, you won't need much Thai to actually live here. Ordering food will require some pointing and sign languages at street food stores (most of them understand English numbers + sign language), but at restaurants in malls, English is "well-enough" understood and you won't have any problems (or they'll call the manager to talk to you.) Now of course, if you're in the startup scene, you're probably going to know some locals that can speak both languages well and are willing to help you around, however, you should alway try to learn the local language enough to get by on a daily basis. In the startup community and the white collar working population, we understand English well enough to understand what you're saying but maybe not converse with you fluently 100% of the time. EDIT: I'm only referring to Bangkok in this case.

RomanPushkin 13y ago

> The enterprise loves C# coders. But that’s not necessarily the best language for a startup stack. Why? It's quite easy, much more powerful, performance is great! Jeffrey Richter in his book "CLR via C#" says it's often more fasten than even compiled C/C++. Have you heard about Entity Framework and ASP.Net MVC? It's growing like a mad thing, a lotta features, improvements and so on. Maybe the license price is high? Yep, but with EF you can switch MS SQL database to any other one. And, moreover, you can obtain a license for free on bizspark. And, for sure, you can switch to Mono if you prefer Linux or Mac. BTW, you comparing "proprietary language C#" to Java, but Java is by Oracle ;) PS http://net.tutsplus.com/articles/editorials/why-many-developers-hate-asp-net-and-why-they-are-wrong/ http://net.tutsplus.com/articles/editorials/why-many-develop...

jamornh 13y ago
Regarding this, you can also even get started for free by joining microsoft's bizspark program. Since they already know the tech, and its being produced cheap by Microsoft for start ups, I'm guessing most will figure that its worth it to just stick with C#.
fingerprinter 13y ago
I've always liked C#, and even like Visual Studio to some degree, but I would never develop it for anything other than a hobby application. Why? Windows. I'm not going to be tied to a an entire ecosystem like that. If MS was serious about being developer friendly, really serious, they would not tie developers to Windows. It might not make the most strategic sense, but in the day and age of the cloud and big clusters of no-cost image spinups, Windows doesn't make sense. And, no, Mono is not a real alternative. There's too many good languages and frameworks to be fiddling with Mono in production.
djrobstep 13y ago
As somebody who has administered Mono apps in production, Mono is a huge pain in the arse. This was a year or two ago so mono may have improved, but you're always going to be somewhat behind the cutting edge, and you'll be suffering through much more sysadmin headaches than if you were running a python app. This essentially means you've got to stick with Windows if you want to run C#. Any why would you tie yourself to a dying ecosystem like that?

EarthLaunch 13y ago

Be careful about that cultural isolation. I'm an arch-introvert with mostly online friendships. I lived in a small mountain community alone for a year and was happy enough. But I tried working from Ukraine for 3 months, and although it was fascinating, the cultural isolation made me leave. It's a strange feeling, almost like you aren't on the same plane as the society you're in, or as if you're watching from a bubble.

iambateman 13y ago
cultural isolation is painful, even for introverts (I'm with ya). It's bizarre to watch people, and see them as fundamentally different, separate, and other from you. The chasm is tough.
yashodhan 13y ago
Cultural isolation defines me as a person. So no problems there. How did you like Ukraine? Where were you based? Was it cheap and comparable to Thailand for a place to bootstrap in?
- EarthLaunch 13y ago
  The isolation is extreme when it's an unknown language and non-"western" culture. Though I would still consider Ukraine relatively western. I was in Luhans'k, an industrial city with a college district, located near the eastern border with Russia. I worked remotely from a euro-style ($1200/mo) flat. It was 4 years ago. I loved walking around the city in the snow, looking at shops and markets. The local tech scene was pretty much dead, at least for a foreigner who didn't speak the language. It might be as cheap as Thailand, but probably less accessible and fun. I have yet to visit Asia. I couldn't handle continuing to bootstrap there because of my isolation. Edit: I think you'd have MUCH better luck in Kiev.
  - phillc73 13y ago
    I believe even better chances in Lviv, in terms of not feeling so isolated. The West of Ukraine is more orientated to the European Union, than the East of Ukraine, which looks towards Russia and has a large ethnic Russian population. My, albeit brief, experience in Lviv was that enough people spoke at least basic English enabling me to communicate. Knowing German also helped in many cases, as did learning at least the basics of Ukrainian for simple daily situations. Housing is expensive, if you want something other than a badly fading Soviet era apartment on the edge of town. Food and entertainment is reasonably cheap.

kirk21 13y ago

Awesome! How did your family/friends react? What is your next stop? Moving to Berlin next month to bootstrap.

pieterhg 13y ago
They are quite used to me moving around a lot and just want to see me happy. I am now in Saigon and my next stop is probably Phnom Penh and then celebrate NYE in Hong Kong. Berlin is awesome! What are you working on?
- yla92 13y ago
  Quite nice to read your story. Btw, it will be great if you can make it to Yangon/Rangoon too. (: (I am from Yangon)
- eriksank 13y ago
  I live and work from Phnom Penh. Cambodia is much more welcoming than Thailand. I wonder why anybody would actually even consider Thailand? Thai ruk Thai. Thailand for the Thai people. I totally agree. Anybody who isn't Thai should never set a foot there.

MichaelTieso 13y ago

I've been traveling around the world for the last 5 years and have started various businesses on the road. It's been an incredible experience. I just moved to Sayulita, Mexico a week ago where I plan to finish my new startup ForkFox.com. I'll be here for 6-months. The downside is that there isn't much for resources. I'm basically here to just focus on programming but in paradise. Having been to Thailand several times, the food there is AMAZING.

uladzislau 13y ago

Other post by OP is very interesting and helps to ponder upon such questions as: 1. Why it's cheaper over there? 2. What are the downsides and hidden pitfalls? http://levels.io/make-money-where-prices-are-high-spend-it-where-prices-are-low-does-income-arbitrage-work/ http://levels.io/make-money-where-prices-are-high-spend-it-w...

homakov 13y ago

If you dont like sex tourism it is ur mental problem. Feel free to agitate in your europez but please leave my thailand as is. Every girl has a right to do anything and its not your business.

homakov 13y ago
Ps. Traveled around the world now living in pattaya. Asq questions.
- Pinatubo 13y ago
  Do you honestly believe those prostitutes enjoy sleeping with people like you?
  - parennoob 13y ago
    If you think enjoyment is a prerequisite to doing a job, then there are several people working on crufty "enterprise" Java-based systems that would love to benefit from your crusade.
    - homakov 13y ago
      That. Do you honestly enjoy writing PHP? Likely no. Nobody cares
    - Pinatubo 13y ago
      My question was in response to this post by the same person: >"If you dont like sex tourism it is ur mental problem. Feel free to agitate in your europez but please leave my thailand as is. Every girl has a right to do anything and its not your business." That seemed to imply that the prostitutes had willingly chosen their profession, which led to my question.
      - homakov 13y ago
        Oh so you imply they all was forced? Hell no. It is just better than clerq in 7 11 for 5 times less salary

gosukiwi 13y ago

Living in Argentina is quite cheap too if you are from North America or Europe, the currency is devaluating so hard dollar is actually 10 to 1, meaning you can rent a nice place for $200 (no pool just a normal appartment), good thing is though, there are no prostitutes and such, and you wont get charged so much for beeing foreigner, Argentina is full of europeans forgeigners so nobody can really say if you are from Argentina or not unless you are asian or black, and even so, people just dont care. Now dont go to the north though, I'm talkign south of Buenos Aires and below that is a whole different story xD

hauk1 13y ago
Why not north?
- gosukiwi 13y ago
  Well... In a nutshell the north is poor and south is rich and full of international tourism. It's something weird of Argentina as a country, 50% of the population lives only in the capital, Buenos Aires. The capital has always had a lot of power (they used to have access to the only port of the city, so they kept ALL the taxes money, while all other provinces received none and were not allowed to have a port). So, only people in Buenos Aires were rich, everyone else was poor, what made the south "not poor" is the fact that basically nobody lived there (because of "La conquista del desierto" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_the_Desert http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_the_Desert), people moved south from Buenos Aires to find new customers, find new oportunities and just avoid the "city life". Also, the south is full of international tourism, cities like Bariloche are full of immigrants and a beautiful Apine-styled architecture, tourists and outsiders are treated quite nicely :) The north on the other hand has a very native south american culture as there are a lot of immigrants from Bolivia and Peru which have a strong native south american lineage, people is closed-minded and isn't really used to outsiders.
  - hauk1 13y ago
    Great thanks! Always wanted to go to Argentina.

johnnyfd 13y ago

I made Panda in Chiang Mai at the co-working office space, Punspace. I too have bootstrapped my business while working here on the cheap. Since I was on a budget I was living off of $600US a month, I authored the book "12 Weeks in Thailand" base on how I quit my job, moved to Thailand to live on the cheap. Now that my business is successful, my budget is closer to $1,500 a month and I'm living a great life in Thailand. I have some video tours of life in Thailand at http://www.JohnnyFD.com http://www.JohnnyFD.com - my blog

cyrilga 13y ago

Amazing article! I am doing the same (bootstrapping from Asia) and would agree with almost anything but the budget. I am currently in Ko Tao (=paradise) and during low season, you get a comfortable room for 8000 baht / month ($300) 5 min from the beach. In Chiang Mai I was renting a large bedroom on Airbnb for $9/day. Vientiane as well is a good option, they love foreigners there and there are a lot of french expats. I would stay away from Vietnam (Saigon and Hanoi) as you have constantly to be on your guards unless you go to Hoi An or Nha Trang. Has anybody tried the Philippines?

cyrilga 13y ago
Of course during low season, there is quite a bit of rain, which helps focusing on developing your startup and not going to the beach.
- macarthy12 13y ago
  But downpours = bad internet in Thailand :-)
rajeemcariazo 13y ago
Philippines is a good country for bootstrapping, there are plenty of good English speakers and low cost of living.

mathattack 13y ago

How is the education there? I found locals to complain about the talent the schools produced. That said, it's a wonderful country. Avoid the tourist traps and you miss much of the sleazy side. If I were 23 I would take it over Iowa ten times out of ten.

boy88 13y ago

just to confirm if I go to Thailand and want to do a business road trip wherein i'm speaking at say a meetup.com event, I can get into trouble?

boy88 13y ago

just to confirm if I go to Thailand and want to do a business road trip wherein i'm speaking at say a meetup.com event, I can get into trouble?

mbenjaminsmith 13y ago

I've lived and built two companies in Thailand over the last 14 years. Before your pop your Macbook Air in a backpack, read my points. 1. Bangkok is not cheap. If you want to have a life that resembles anything you're used to coming from a Western country, you're going to live in Bangkok and you're going to live in a relatively expensive part of the city. Yes, you can live in a concrete block with plastic furniture and eat noodles on the street every day. You can probably get by for not much more than $1k doing so. When you can no longer stomach that, you'll find the city is quite expensive. A decent apartment in a favorable part of town will cost you $1300 - $2000 per month. I don't mean a family-sized place, I mean a 1 bedroom with a "livable" amount of room and furniture that doesn't give you the willies. Once you're sick of your local noodle vendor you'll find food prices quite high as well. My wife and I spend more on groceries than we did when we lived in SF (we shopped at the Safeway in the financial district). As for restaurants: We grabbed two meals outside yesterday. One was dim sum that came to about $30 for the two of us. The other was a tonkatsu place and the bill came to about $25. While that's probably cheaper than the US (for the same quality) that's hardly a meal for $1. We spend over $100 for a meal often. I don't know anyone (Thai or foreign) that would consider that overly expensive. Wine and imported beer are expensive and the taxes are going up. American craft beer is going to go up to $10/bottle direct from the distributor. If you can stomach the local swill (think Budweiser without the quality control) knock yourself out. When you're sick of taking taxis and the BTS/MRT, have fun buying a car at 50% - 300% above US prices. 2. Visas are not easy. If you really want to fake it here it means constantly traveling in and out of the country. The problem with that (beyond the fact that it usually means traveling to the least interesting parts of the surrounding countries) is that they limit it to a certain number of tourist visas for every six month period or something similar (I can't remember the actual rules, sorry). The common way around this is to use a "visa service" which basically means you're paying someone to bribe someone to look the other way. It's not only illegal, the rules for it change seemingly month to month, based on whoever ends up in a position of power in what embassy. To do it properly: a) register a business with the requisite capital and Thai shareholders, b) get the appropriate visa c) get a work permit. I've been through it. It's not cheap or easy. To not do it properly means breaking the law in a country where you most likely don't speak the language. Have fun with that. 3. Sex isn't everywhere. My wife and I go out for drinks 1.5 times a month and I can't remember the last time I saw a prostitute. If you're going somewhere with a free flow of hookers then you're probably seeking that out. I see young people do this quite often -- the only difference between these young people and so-called "sexpats" is that young people often go "ironically". They're all equally as stupid. 4. The local talent pool is mixed. The entrepreneurs here are generally managers, not doers, so you're probably never going to find a technical co-founder. Programming/technical ability on the whole is quite low. Try browsing the website of any publicly traded Thai company and you'll see what I mean. It is possible to find good graphic designers, administrative types, etc. Salaries are low here so that could possibly be an advantage. Having said that, I know people who have built large tech companies (100+ employees) and the consensus is that the disadvantages here outweigh the advantages. Most people I know in tech here outsource to Eastern Europe or somewhere else. Investors are hard to find and mostly unsophisticated in relation to tech. Tech-savvy ones do exist, but they generally buy companies outright and keep you on as a glorified project manager. 5. When you're ready to put down roots, you'll find doing things legally is an expensive pain in the ass and -- here's the kicker -- you'll have to give up 51% of your company to one or more Thai people. If it's not someone you've known for a decade then, well, good luck with that. Yes, there are ways around this but they require you to put your company in a legal gray area. 6. Inflation isn't rampant. Cost of living has gone up considerably on the scale of decades but it's pretty hard to notice in a few months.

mattront 13y ago

Education visa is a good option for staying long-term in Thailand. You just need to enrol into a course (usually 60 to 180 hour Thai language or English language course) and that will give you 15 months visa that can be extended for up to 5 years. Total cost for 15 months is around 1000 USD and you don't have to leave the country every couple of months. Just Google "thailand education visa". It's also a good way to learn something while staying in Thailand.

moepstar 13y ago
Does that have any limitations, though? Like an age limit?
- mattront 13y ago
  No age limit. Most courses are run by small private schools that are flexible with how and when you actually study. Education visa can be arranged before coming to Thailand, or for 500 USD you can change your tourist visa to EDU visa while in Thailand.

imperio59 13y ago

The article seems to imply that it is impossible to live for less than $1000 a month (internet included) in the US in a remote area where you can focus. I regularly travel out to Eastern Washington (close to the border by Montana) and the area is very rural and prices relatively cheap for rent (and house prices are not unreasonable if you're looking to buy). No one will come bug you if you live in the woods, and Satellite internet (while not perfect) is decent as long as you're not doing anything too bandwidth intensive. You can also always live near a bigger city and get Cable internet. As far as food costs go, if you can fish, hunt and grow a vegetable garden, you can be self-sufficient most of the year. I'm not saying everyone needs to go out and live that lifestyle, but I just wanted to challenge the assumption that you couldn't live for less than $1000 a month in the US. A lot of people do, and aren't necessarily poor or bad off either.

seanmcdirmid 13y ago
I hope you mean Idaho and not Montana. Spokane is cheap but not that cheap, in the more rural communities like Newport, you could probably do $1000/month with lots of work cutting wood and such. If you want cheaper, cross the border to Idaho or Montana, but the farther away we get from infrastructure, things actually become more expensive, not less.
- imperio59 13y ago
  I did mean Idaho, Colville/Metaline Falls area. It's true once you get far enough the cost of living goes up in a way, but I've found those parts to still be fairly cheap cost of living (on the face of it), assuming you already own land.

scheff 13y ago

My small amount of research discovered that you can live in a serviced hotel room for between 15,000 and 30,000 THB per month, which is $500 - $1000 USD. This was in Chiang Mai. I explored a couple of different hotels. You can get serious discounts for booking a room for 3, 6 months. Combine that with eating out for every meal (instead of grocery shopping and cooking for yourself) and it's an incredibly cheap option. Meals are as cheap as $1 each.

RisingInflation 13y ago

Inflation rising... I don't know what you are on about. Check your facts laddy :) http://www.tradingeconomics.com/thailand/inflation-cpi http://www.tradingeconomics.com/thailand/inflation-cpi Interesting story, however.

rogerthatplease 13y ago

On one hand, it's a great article. On the other hand, it's really misleading! Lots of commenters in here would agree with "levels," but that's only because they are like-minded. You can easily live on 500-600 euros per month, stay in beach bungalows, rented houses, or amazing bamboo houses where the owners bring you fruit every morning, and that includes unlimited 3G internet, the wireless internet they already have on site, and your bus and plane tickets around Asia. No offense, but it's a little bit of a shame to accidentally mislead people on how much the costs are (a pool??!?!?!), and it's also a shame that the author didn't check out Malaysia, which is far less touristy, has almost no sex tourism, and has some really incredible places (with internet). Shop at the markets. Eat at night markets, food stalls, and normal thai restaurants (but proper restos... not all stalls)... we went out with some local friends in Bangkok, ate famously, and the bill came to like 8 dollars (three different restos). Look for places like Chiang Mai... but also, move about yo! We did 3 weeks at a time in each place, moving down through sukhothai, ahyuthaya, etc., worked with laser focus, and spent way, way less money. Really not much need for an incubator if you're confident in what you're doing.

genX 13y ago

Should be called "When I take my laptop to country "x" I call it bootstrapping a company, and now I will school you with my vast experience gained over 6 months in a hostel".....get a life, and a real job, you annoying tourist with a laptop

umphetico 13y ago

damn I know I wouldn't be able to focus on my work if I lived in Thailand...and it's definitely not the women

chespirito 13y ago

One qualifier to: "Thailand’s government is wholly responsible for this situation" (viz. rampant sex tourism). I would clarify that it is fully but not uniquely responsible. Sort of like if two men set out to murder a third and they both poison his drink on the same night, they are both fully but not uniquely responsible for his death. Analogously, sex tourists share responsibility, as perhaps do other governments whose actions influence the kind of governments that Thailand is likely to have. Just a minor point of mine on a side-observation! Otherwise, lots of insights I enjoyed. I hadn't given much thought to start-up culture in SE Asia. One thing that doesn't get mentioned is the language: Did you get by exclusively with English (and Dutch, lots of ex-colonies being out that way)? If you're serious about growing a start-up over a long stretch of time in Thailand it seems like you would want to have some Thai, if nothing else to draw from a greater pool of local talent when recruiting.

mr-happy 13y ago

Is the quality of hackers good in Thailand? I'm particularly thinking about skills to deal with javascript, node.js and MongoDB. I've heard mixed reviews in the past - and it's been touched on a few times here - but would be great to hear what the latest situation is.

hmkcode 13y ago

So interesting..especially the article you wrote about how this article has attracted 15K visitors to your site. Thanks