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Formula 1′s Leading Team Has a Big Secret

282 points by GFuller 13y ago

linux_devil 13y ago
Traction control sounds on youtube are very similar.
OhhHeyTyler 13y ago
Would it be fair to fine the team if they were in fact using the "assisted KERS suspension"? Technically it is not traction control.
- brey 13y ago
  Technically correct - the best kind of correct.
- CompelTechnic 13y ago
  Their implementation is almost certainly within the letter of the law in the rule book. So, no fine- but it could likely end up being the case that the rules are amended to ban whatever tech they are using in future seasons.
jlangenauer 13y ago
I was at the Formula 1 in Melbourne this year, back in March, and definitely noticed the unusual engine notes of the RBR cars as they accelerated out if corners. But it was definitely both cars making the sound, so both Webber and Vettel had the system, if it did in fact exist.
anoother 13y ago
I find the justification presented for only Vettel having the technology a little strange. It's common to test new systems on one car before rolling them out across the team. If the technology works and is reliable, Webber will have it before the end of the season.
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  >> "It's common to test new systems on one car before rolling them out across the team." Every weekend Red Bull claims the two cars are the same and Vettel is not given any advantage. Usually they test on one car in the practice sessions to gauge the advantage it gives over the current car but in quali/race the cars are usually (if we are to believe Red Bull) identical. I find the justification in the article regarding money unlikely though.
- buster 13y ago
  It could very well be that just in this race the technology was not working on Webbers car (as would be no surprise with new techology). Just wondering because of: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6532428 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6532428
  - adhipg 13y ago
    The article suggests that they are possibly linking the traction control to the KERS system. Guess who's had the most issues with KERS in the last two years? Mark Webber. Red Bull haven't been able to get either the weight distribution or something else right on his car to even get 'normal' KERS working reliably.
  - ChildOfChaos 13y ago
    Well Mark Webber did end up retiring from the race so something was not right with his car...
    - Oletros 13y ago
      > Well Mark Webber did end up retiring from the race so something was not right with his car... Yes, what was not right was the car being in flames because a crash :P
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- theshadow 13y ago
brey 13y ago
In an environment where innovation has been strictly regulated against (better engine management software? NOPE. better foil design? NOPE), the fine art of sticking to the letter of the law but totally bending the spirit of it is naturally where the bleeding edge of F1 design is going to lie.
- Shivetya 13y ago
  racing at most levels is highly regulated and innovation pretty much stifled. NASCAR almost ended themselves with the Car of Tomorrow and jellybean clones running down the tracks. About as much fun as watching IROC racing where cars were identical. The idea of subtle differences leading to a win is the source of drama and at times is very welcome in the sport In other racing, the Nissan Deltawing racer has raised a ruckus, small engine yet very competent racer. When tenths count its best to get as much of them from racer and pit screw skill which increases enjoyment of the fans and teams alike.
  - ericcumbee 13y ago
    The Delta Wing is nothing special. Especially compared with contemporary prototypes at Le Mans and WEC. Sure it looks like a prototype but its a prototype that they were able to pick and choose which parts of the rule book they wanted to follow.
- ronaldx 13y ago
  Much the same in cycling - there are many innovations that could potentially improve speeds: as a simple example, recumbent cycles are faster under many conditions. But, the UCI sets its rules based on innovations up to 1972, in order to make a fair comparison with Eddy Merckx. Consumer bikes surely suffer for this lack of innovation at race level.
  - 4ad 13y ago
    As a cyclist interested in recumbent and other alternative bicycle designs, I disagree. You can buy whatever kind of bicycle you want. Regarding competitions, I definitely think every cyclist has to ride the same type of bicycle, technology-wise, but I'd love to see competitions using alternative designs.
ChildOfChaos 13y ago
This is pure speculation, I am sure Red Bull are doing some things with there car but it's not as big of a deal as everyone makes out and I don't think it's one thing. It's worth noting, that Rosberg's engineer said that the rubber caught in his front wing for that race was costing him 1.7 seconds a lap. That's where the biggest difference came, Vettel wasn't that much faster in Korea.
bliti 13y ago
Link to Racecar Engineering web article: http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/red-bulls-traction-secret-revealed/ http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/red-bulls-traction-s... This is a very nice magazine to read/subscribe even if you are not a race fan. Lots of technical discussions.
cjrp 13y ago
If the secret is the automated use of KERS, you'd see it in the on-screen graphics (the HUD-esque display shows when a driver is deploying KERS). Also the article makes the comparison in noise - but surely that noise is caused by the engine being limited/throttled, something which they could not get away with in this season since the ECUs are all the same. A KERS-based traction control wouldn't make the same noise because it doesn't work in the same way.
- 7952 13y ago
  I'm not an engineer but couldn't you adjust how much energy the system generates on the recovery stage? If the magnets in the generator are electrical rather than rare earth you could adjust the strength of the magnets and the breaking affect of the generator would be adjustable. This would be akin to how ABS uses brake friction but with faster adjustment and less loss of energy.
  - bliti 13y ago
    Exactly. They can program the KERS to increase its resistance under given situations, and then tune the suspension to better respond to it. I can speculate about how this might seem less upsetting to the chassis, because it is not using force in the braking system (in the corners of the chassis). Having the resistance generated in the powertrain means that the tires do not have to deal with anything other than normal breaking, and acceleration.
  - cjrp 13y ago
    Good point, I was thinking more of the boost you might gain from deploying KERS, vs. the reduced force on the wheel while you're harvesting.
- Havoc 13y ago
  What you see on screen regarding KERS isn't a direct representation of whats happening. e.g. It might pick up more energy than is permitted for use & the graphics won't show that.
TillE 13y ago
The smeary tone of this article is really quite obvious and unpleasant, and I don't think qualifying it as a "conspiracy theory" makes up for that. For example the claim that "Christian Horner isn’t saying much", when in fact he's flatly denied any kind of rule breaking.
- ye 13y ago
  When one guy leads by 30+ seconds, while everyone else fights for fractions of a second, either there's a major breakthrough or somebody is cheating.
  - dolphenstein 13y ago
    That statement in the article is quite disingenuous. 30 seconds is a comfortable win but not something to get excited about. The front runners routinely lap the poorer teams, so it's hardly "fractions of a second".
  - buster 13y ago
    That's 30 seconds accumulated over many rounds. You should compare 1-2 seconds per round to your fractions of a second and that's not as uncommon as you suggest. For example, look at the Singapore Grand Prix 2011, except for #2 there are similar margins between the top racers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Singapore_Grand_Prix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Singapore_Grand_Prix Or Australia 2011, Vettel won with 22 seconds ahead: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Australian_Grand_Prix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Australian_Grand_Prix I'm sure there are enough examples to be found. Very often you have can find a margin of around 20-30 seconds between position 1 and 3 and sometimes large margins between 1 and 2.
    - vincentkriek 13y ago
      The problem is not only the +30 second lead. It's the time the 30 second lead was achieved in. After the second safety car, Vettel was just driving away from Rosberg with 2+ seconds a lap. That's an unbelievable difference, with Rosberg also racing for a top team (namely Mercedes, same team as Hamilton). There are also speculations Rosberg was on old tires and held the rest of the pack up, but still, 2+ seconds a lap is incredible.
kyro 13y ago
I love that this is really a cutthroat battle of engineering. Behind every driver there's a team of really bright individuals who are brainstorming, modeling, designing, tweaking, and refitting, to figure out just how Red Bull's doing it.
- Havoc 13y ago
  Plus some serious computers crunching the numbers
- zonkey 13y ago
  Wouldn't it be even more of an engineering battle if the drivers were replaced with computers?
  - beat 13y ago
    A lot of NASCAR fans argue that F1 is just that - driving skill has been replaced by technology. I think that's nonsense. Better cars are an advantage, but ultimately, it's the driver's nerve and imagination that wins. I'd choose a lesser car with a greater driver any day.
    - hencq 13y ago
      Completely agree. On Top Gear they have a segment where they have a celebrity drive a 'reasonably priced car'. They had to create a separate scoreboard for F1 drivers, because they are all so much faster than anybody else.
      - beat 13y ago
        They also note that the F1 drivers take certain turns differently from every other driver.
    - ahlatimer 13y ago
      I wouldn't. Not in F1, at least. Not if you wanted to regularly come in the points. You could stick Vettel in a Marussia, and he'd still finish near the back of the pack.
anonymous 13y ago
Couldn't it be some sort of new notification system for the driver which gives him instinctive feedback and lets him drive the engine the same way traction control would?
- alexeisadeski3 13y ago
  Nope. Humans can't react nearly quickly enough for such a notification system to be of any use.
  - Unosolo 13y ago
    Could that be a forecasting system that notifies the driver just in time for him to react about what is going to happen in a next moment?
    - alexeisadeski3 13y ago
      I suppose that it would be possible to predict what the driver should do x0ms in the future, and adjust your signal-to-driver to correct for that. The problem is that you'd need to be right almost every single time - a single slightly wrong prediction could quite easily cause a crash. Ultimately, I doubt that such a system (one which relies on the drivers' reaction to a TCS notification) would really gain very much. These drivers are already incredibly experienced, they have a team of professionals poring over their telemetry, and thus they are already using a sort of "traction control," albeit completely manually.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
- jzzskijj 13y ago
  F1 drivers surely have fast reactions, but could they really improve driver's reactions so much with a new kind of sound/light/tactile feedback, that a driver could replace TCS? Or be at least remarkably faster than drivers not using that notification technology. I find that quite unlikely. I am not confident that they have cheated either.
- 13y ago
rwmj 13y ago
I think they should just let the teams use whatever technology they can invent, as long as it doesn't make it unsafe. Who cares how good the drivers are? The technology is far more interesting.
- paddyoloughlin 13y ago
  Maybe I'm mistaken, but I believe that the market (spectators) does not agree with you and that is the reason why F1 has had more and more regulations added to it. Technological innovation appeared to be leading to a sport that was losing its spectacle more and more. And that's what the vast majority of people who watch(ed) F1 wanted. I love technological advantages as much as anyone, but people relate to people, not machines.
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  That wouldn't work. Firstly the smaller teams would be gone as they couldn't afford to compete. It's also likely a lot of the mid-field teams would struggle to afford to compete (Lotus, one of the top 5 teams can't even pay it's top driver). Secondly your qualification 'as long as it doesn't make it unsafe' is one of the reasons there are so many rules in F1. It's an incredibly dangerous sport. The engineers could easily make the cars go much quicker - but it would be too dangerous and costly.
  - marcosdumay 13y ago
    > It's an incredibly dangerous sport. Maybe it is time to make a clone of the race, but without the pilots.
  - mafro 13y ago
    Making the cars go fast has never been the issue. Making them slow down however is quite a different thing. :)
  - cmsimike 13y ago
    I would love to see that elusive budget cap implemented but if that were to happen, I would want to ease the technological limitations. Imagine the kind of innovation if you were free to do what you want up to a max of X million/year.
RaSoJo 13y ago
Minardi's old team was bought out by Dietrich Mateschitz and converted into Torro Rosso. I feel there is some bad blood still around, since it was Giancarlo Minardi who pretty much started this theory/conspiracy.
Sniperfish 13y ago
I think the BBC's article from Oct 3rd has some good commentary on this topic: "Red Bull's advantage is believed to come largely from a more effective use of the exhaust gases for aerodynamic effect. This creates more rear downforce than the other cars, meaning Vettel has the rear grip to enable him to accelerate sooner." http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24381349 http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24381349
- TheCondor 13y ago
  Blown diffusers. They did outlaw hot blown diffusers but blowing cold is still within the sporting regs. Thus the odd sound at low power, they are flowing air through the exhaust when they arent on the power to flow over the diffuser to provide more down force to accelerate quicker. Seems like there could be some clever uses if kers to bleed off power for traction control like applications though. This is what f1 is all about people... That's the drama and excitement. There is technology, intrigue, and then the real debates start when you simply suggest Vettel is the very best in the world and that's the difference. Fun stuff.
  - AmVess 13y ago
    Yeah, the weird plut-plut-plut of the Renault engine in the RBR is a result of the cold blowing. KERS based traction control would be silent.
chiph 13y ago
the RB9 could limit power when compressed and boost power when expanded Isn't that backwards? If you're light on the suspension, that means you have less grip, and thus less traction.
- CrazyCatDog 13y ago
  Right turn: right suspension compressed, left wheels on the outside have further to travel, if both spinning at the same speed then you will break traction on one side or the other. Not sure what type of differentials are legal in F1, but the technology in the article is plausible in the absence of some fancy limited slip diffs.
- hvidgaard 13y ago
  You do not want to floor the pedal while still getting out of the corner. The side way force means you have less grip for forward motion, and too much torque to the tires and they will spin.
eaurouge 13y ago
Or maybe their technical team is just better. Adrian Newey[1] has designed some very fast cars - at Williams, McLaren and now at Red Bull. Michael Schumacher managed to win seven championships in his career, but he was often racing against a (much) more superior Newey-designed car. F1 was fun in those days. With Vettel, arguably the most talented driver to drive a Newey designed car since Senna, it's no surprise Red Bull is cleaning up. Red Bull's pace is unfortunate, because with Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi and Vettel you have four incredibly fast drivers. And without Red Bull's dominance, the current era could have been one of the most exciting in F1 history. It doesn't help that Vettel is a bit of a dick, or at least that's the perception. Schumacher was a bit of dick too, but the crowd (or a sizable portion) liked him - the fact that he didn't always have the best car, also helped. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Newey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Newey
- GVIrish 13y ago
  Eh, I wouldn't say Schumacher won against vastly superior Adrian Newey cars. Once Ferrari hit their stride in the Schumacher years they often beat McLaren by being far more reliable and robust. They also built up their advantage with their Bridgestone partnership to a level that made them dominant. So dominant in fact, that it led to a spec tire. Adrian Newey designs in the past ran on the ragged edge of fragility in order to make the cars as fast as possible. But that resulted in many costly DNF's that cost McLaren at least one championship. Now the Red Bull cars are still blazing fast but they're also very reliable. I'm pretty sure Red Bull is cheating with traction control through their KERS system but I'm also sure they'd be winning races without it.
  - eaurouge 13y ago
    He won his first two titles in a Benetton Ford that was widely considered to be inferior to the Williamses. At Ferrari, it took the team four years after Schumacher joined, to build a car that was truly on par with the best on the grid. But even before that Schumacher had come close to winning the championship, challenging Villeneuve's Williams for the title in 97, and Hakkinen's McLaren in 98 and 99.
bowlofpetunias 13y ago
As a fan of the sport, I've so far only read about this unsubstantiated conspiracy theory on forums and low-end blogs. Wired adds no new insights, no facts, no sources, not even new speculative theories, it just rehashes old gossip. Fuck, this is one step down from Gawker. I'm so glad I stopped taken Wired seriously since the 90's.
- antris 13y ago
  As a non-fan of the sport, this story sounds exciting. Clearly something interesting is happening in the F1 scene, and nobody knows for sure what it is. It's a great mystery. Even if this story is a rehash of what has been already said in F1 fan blogs, it is very accessible to people who know little about the sport. Journalism is about so much more than pure facts.
  - beaker52 13y ago
    "As a non-fan of the sport, this story sounds exciting. Clearly something interesting is happening in the F1 scene, and nobody knows for sure what it is. It's a great mystery." This is the case most of the time whether it's a new design, or political. That's F1.
    - mikeryan 13y ago
      The point isn't that it is or isn't interesting the point is that Wired is bringing an intriguing technical story to a population who wouldn't normally care.
  - onebaddude 13y ago
    >Even if this story is a rehash of what has been already said in F1 fan blogs, it is very accessible to people who know little about the sport. Don't worry, that's just the obligatory HN top comment of: I happen to have more knowledge of the topic, therefore this article sucks. I also thought it was an interesting read.
- atonse 13y ago
  RBR is certainly one of those teams that is A+ in every facet. Traction control wouldn't explain their consistently amazing pitstop times, and their car's generally awesome reliability. I've been watching pretty much every F1 race for the past 3+ years, but don't read any F1 blogs. This was news to me. I have been growing a little tired of the Vettel's domination, even if it's well earned. That's why Silverstone was one of my favorite races this year. Because as soon as Vettel crashed, it was like, "oh, we have an actual race on our hands now!" and the commentators said something similar, something about it no longer just being a race for second place.
csmatt 13y ago
Obligatory Smokey Yunick mention. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokey_Yunick http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokey_Yunick The guy was a hacker in many senses of the word!
Zigurd 13y ago
My theory is that they implemented an equivalent to traction control, but with no sensors at the wheel. It's all internal to the KERS, and probably a software hack. For example, if a drop in current from the KERS indicates the motor/generator needs less power even though the throttle is open, you might be able to infer wheel-spin without measuring it directly, and momentarily shut down the KERS to reduce power to the wheels. Even if they audited the code, it might look like code that protects that motor/generator from over-revving than a software traction control.
- AmVess 13y ago
  How it would work is to use the KERS to charge during engine acceleration. A brilliant idea, and it wouldn't have to be plumbed into the standard McLaren ECU all the teams have to use. Lewis Hamilton stated that Vettel's RBR car was getting on full throttle 65 feet(!) sooner than all the other cars at a corner in Singapore...which means that there's clearly something going on that isn't just Newey's aero.
- burgreblast 13y ago
  Wow, that's a really compelling guess. I've been lucky enough to go to MC for several years and usually get at least one session on the outside of Rascasse. Everyone has problems accelerating out of that corner, especially the first 10-15 laps. They all get on the power, and oversteer. You watch their rear tires get shiny, the rear slips out of line, and you hear them back off the throttle. Except Vettel. Constant power, a strange exhaust, and never ever oversteering. I remember jumping up and down the first time I saw it: "THAT'S why he's so fast--RB have different technology. No one else can go though the turn like that. No one." I never did figure out what it could be, but your theory makes perfect sense. Thanks.
- swamp40 13y ago
  I think you are probably right. Your theory is getting some press, too: http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=37858:f1-spanish-media-suspect-kers-to-mimic-traction-control-on-rb9-formula-1-car&catid=1:f1&Itemid=157 http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=articl...
- 13y ago
ChikkaChiChi 13y ago
Personally, I'd be all for a league similar to F1 that allowed for much greater disparaties between teams. We're talking about the most well funded teams in the world; no chance of a small upstart coming in with a low bankroll and making a splash anyway.
- beat 13y ago
  There used to be such a beast. It was called Can-Am, and the rules were basically that cars had to have two seats, fenders, and at least one engine. Other than that, it was anything goes. It made for spectacular racing, but tended to be dominated by one team at a time, and it was ridiculously expensive. It was ultimately shut down for cost reasons.
  - justin66 13y ago
    Not the sort of thing you could bring back today, even without the cost concerns. The "let's do everything we can do to make this fast" cars competing in that series killed a lot of drivers.
    - beat 13y ago
      Yeah. I used to watch Can Am when I was a little kid. Drivers got killed a lot. Those cars were insane - 1000 horsepower sometimes.
      - justin66 13y ago
        Something like the Porsche 917k30 was capable of close to 1500hp. (I can't imagine you'd actually run on race day with that setup) My dad and his friends commented on watching that car many times, and specifically the amount of noise that it made. That car was illustrative of a few of the problems with the "let's just allow the teams to build the fastest cars they possibly can!" notion. Teams didn't pay as much attention to safety in general as they should have in the seventies, but more to the point: the performance differential between some of those cars - racing on the same crowded track - was just too extreme. There is no safe way to run when that extreme difference exists.
cmsimike 13y ago
I've been keeping up on this and I don't believe it to be what Wired speculates (though I've seen those rumors myself). The generally accepted answer to this seems to be that the Redbull's engine (Renault) cuts half its cylinders[0]. Yes this can be seen as a type of _torque_ control, not traction control. The sound was what my engine sounded like when a spark plug cable came loose and thus not firing the cylinder. As for why Webber doesn't sound like that - well you can speculate that Webber just doesn't have the trust in his car as Vettel has to get on the power that early. And, if you've kept up with this season at all, you'd understand why Webber has no trust in his car[1]. [0] http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/news/racing/red-bull-traction http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/news/racing/red-bull-traction [1] https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/600837_10101889413082864_224334807_n.jpg https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/600837_1010...
graycat 13y ago
An old remark was, without rules, auto racing would soon become about as exciting as watching the jets land at JFK. Another point is, mostly sports are sold as drama, that is, about human characters the audience can identify with, characters taking on challenges. So, see lots of pictures of the drivers, that is, the characters in the drama, and commentary about the characters, but next to nothing on the engineering of the cars. So, what's the bore/stroke ratio, max piston speed, max RPMs, number of valves per cylinder, valve spring design (last I heard, they don't use metal springs and use compressed gas instead), intake boost design and pressures, intercooler design, fuel injection design, fuel chemistry, clutch design, transmission design, suspension design, etc.? Don't hear much about those details! So, it's not sold as a competition or lesson in engineering or the old "improve the breed" but as human drama. So, have rules to deemphasize the engineering and just let the drama show. On with the show!
JulianMorrison 13y ago
I wonder what a race with "truly, anything goes" as the rule for car design would be like?
brianbreslin 13y ago
I am not really a huge racing fan, but am fascinated by the innovation going on in formula 1, and other race circuits. These innovations eventually make it into mainstream cars. By self-imposing constraints, they are pushing the engineers to get creative.
swamp40 13y ago
Regarding the mysterious hidden traction control that no one can find. How about a modified wireless air pressure sensor inside the tires that also reported tire slippage? Then perhaps that slippage info gets received by electronics built into the drivers shoes? Then the millisecond acceleration and braking is controlled by actuators inside the shoes that hit the pedals, faster than any human can and using instant, actionable slippage data. When the driver walks away, nothing unusual can be found on the car when it is presented for inspection.
chrismealy 13y ago
I'm pretty sure there's a ton of money in constructors' points, way more than the entrance fee, but the prize money isn't disclosed.
lob4tt 13y ago
From http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_the_sport/8763.html http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_the_sport/87... How is the stored energy released by the driver? The regulations stipulate that the release must be completely under the driver’s control. There is a boost button on the steering wheel which can be pressed by the driver. Is it really OK to let suspension system to control the releasing of boost power?
jotm 13y ago
F1 was supposed to be about the fastest cars with the best technologies, why did they ban traction control (among other things)? What a joke...
- TallGuyShort 13y ago
  While I agree with your disappointment, many people believe F1 was supposed to be about the best drivers more than about the best cars. I will admit that the regulations have made the races more exciting in the sense of competition, even though I would love to see what happened if you just let the engineers go crazy.
iSloth 13y ago
The FIA must be aware of the system that they are using, buy looking at this section of the rules: 8.2.1 All components of the engine and gearbox, including clutch, differential and KERS in addition to all associated actuators must be controlled by an Electronic Control Unit (ECU) which has been manufactured by an FIA designated supplier to a specification determined by the FIA. The ECU may only be used with FIA approved software and may only be connected to the control system wiring loom, sensors and actuators in a manner specified by the FIA. Additional information regarding the ECU software versions and setup may be found in the Appendix to these regulations.
Fuzzwah 13y ago
I'm a huge F1 fan and this is the best wrap up of what red bull are probably doing: http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2013/10/so-how-is-red-bull-running-traction.html http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2013/10/so-how-is-red-bull-r...
danbmil99 13y ago
This is why I hate all sports.
WalterBright 13y ago
What I'd do if I was in charge of it (and I never would be) would be to outlaw all semiconductors in the car.

282 points by GFuller 13y ago

Traction control sounds on youtube are very similar.

Would it be fair to fine the team if they were in fact using the "assisted KERS suspension"? Technically it is not traction control.

brey 13y ago
Technically correct - the best kind of correct.
CompelTechnic 13y ago
Their implementation is almost certainly within the letter of the law in the rule book. So, no fine- but it could likely end up being the case that the rules are amended to ban whatever tech they are using in future seasons.

jlangenauer 13y ago

I was at the Formula 1 in Melbourne this year, back in March, and definitely noticed the unusual engine notes of the RBR cars as they accelerated out if corners. But it was definitely both cars making the sound, so both Webber and Vettel had the system, if it did in fact exist.

anoother 13y ago

I find the justification presented for only Vettel having the technology a little strange. It's common to test new systems on one car before rolling them out across the team. If the technology works and is reliable, Webber will have it before the end of the season.

k-mcgrady 13y ago
>> "It's common to test new systems on one car before rolling them out across the team." Every weekend Red Bull claims the two cars are the same and Vettel is not given any advantage. Usually they test on one car in the practice sessions to gauge the advantage it gives over the current car but in quali/race the cars are usually (if we are to believe Red Bull) identical. I find the justification in the article regarding money unlikely though.
buster 13y ago
It could very well be that just in this race the technology was not working on Webbers car (as would be no surprise with new techology). Just wondering because of: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6532428 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6532428
- adhipg 13y ago
  The article suggests that they are possibly linking the traction control to the KERS system. Guess who's had the most issues with KERS in the last two years? Mark Webber. Red Bull haven't been able to get either the weight distribution or something else right on his car to even get 'normal' KERS working reliably.
- ChildOfChaos 13y ago
  Well Mark Webber did end up retiring from the race so something was not right with his car...
  - Oletros 13y ago
    > Well Mark Webber did end up retiring from the race so something was not right with his car... Yes, what was not right was the car being in flames because a crash :P
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
theshadow 13y ago

brey 13y ago

In an environment where innovation has been strictly regulated against (better engine management software? NOPE. better foil design? NOPE), the fine art of sticking to the letter of the law but totally bending the spirit of it is naturally where the bleeding edge of F1 design is going to lie.

Shivetya 13y ago
racing at most levels is highly regulated and innovation pretty much stifled. NASCAR almost ended themselves with the Car of Tomorrow and jellybean clones running down the tracks. About as much fun as watching IROC racing where cars were identical. The idea of subtle differences leading to a win is the source of drama and at times is very welcome in the sport In other racing, the Nissan Deltawing racer has raised a ruckus, small engine yet very competent racer. When tenths count its best to get as much of them from racer and pit screw skill which increases enjoyment of the fans and teams alike.
- ericcumbee 13y ago
  The Delta Wing is nothing special. Especially compared with contemporary prototypes at Le Mans and WEC. Sure it looks like a prototype but its a prototype that they were able to pick and choose which parts of the rule book they wanted to follow.
ronaldx 13y ago
Much the same in cycling - there are many innovations that could potentially improve speeds: as a simple example, recumbent cycles are faster under many conditions. But, the UCI sets its rules based on innovations up to 1972, in order to make a fair comparison with Eddy Merckx. Consumer bikes surely suffer for this lack of innovation at race level.
- 4ad 13y ago
  As a cyclist interested in recumbent and other alternative bicycle designs, I disagree. You can buy whatever kind of bicycle you want. Regarding competitions, I definitely think every cyclist has to ride the same type of bicycle, technology-wise, but I'd love to see competitions using alternative designs.

ChildOfChaos 13y ago

This is pure speculation, I am sure Red Bull are doing some things with there car but it's not as big of a deal as everyone makes out and I don't think it's one thing. It's worth noting, that Rosberg's engineer said that the rubber caught in his front wing for that race was costing him 1.7 seconds a lap. That's where the biggest difference came, Vettel wasn't that much faster in Korea.

bliti 13y ago

Link to Racecar Engineering web article: http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/red-bulls-traction-secret-revealed/ http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/red-bulls-traction-s... This is a very nice magazine to read/subscribe even if you are not a race fan. Lots of technical discussions.

cjrp 13y ago

If the secret is the automated use of KERS, you'd see it in the on-screen graphics (the HUD-esque display shows when a driver is deploying KERS). Also the article makes the comparison in noise - but surely that noise is caused by the engine being limited/throttled, something which they could not get away with in this season since the ECUs are all the same. A KERS-based traction control wouldn't make the same noise because it doesn't work in the same way.

7952 13y ago
I'm not an engineer but couldn't you adjust how much energy the system generates on the recovery stage? If the magnets in the generator are electrical rather than rare earth you could adjust the strength of the magnets and the breaking affect of the generator would be adjustable. This would be akin to how ABS uses brake friction but with faster adjustment and less loss of energy.
- bliti 13y ago
  Exactly. They can program the KERS to increase its resistance under given situations, and then tune the suspension to better respond to it. I can speculate about how this might seem less upsetting to the chassis, because it is not using force in the braking system (in the corners of the chassis). Having the resistance generated in the powertrain means that the tires do not have to deal with anything other than normal breaking, and acceleration.
- cjrp 13y ago
  Good point, I was thinking more of the boost you might gain from deploying KERS, vs. the reduced force on the wheel while you're harvesting.
Havoc 13y ago
What you see on screen regarding KERS isn't a direct representation of whats happening. e.g. It might pick up more energy than is permitted for use & the graphics won't show that.

TillE 13y ago

The smeary tone of this article is really quite obvious and unpleasant, and I don't think qualifying it as a "conspiracy theory" makes up for that. For example the claim that "Christian Horner isn’t saying much", when in fact he's flatly denied any kind of rule breaking.

ye 13y ago
When one guy leads by 30+ seconds, while everyone else fights for fractions of a second, either there's a major breakthrough or somebody is cheating.
- dolphenstein 13y ago
  That statement in the article is quite disingenuous. 30 seconds is a comfortable win but not something to get excited about. The front runners routinely lap the poorer teams, so it's hardly "fractions of a second".
- buster 13y ago
  That's 30 seconds accumulated over many rounds. You should compare 1-2 seconds per round to your fractions of a second and that's not as uncommon as you suggest. For example, look at the Singapore Grand Prix 2011, except for #2 there are similar margins between the top racers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Singapore_Grand_Prix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Singapore_Grand_Prix Or Australia 2011, Vettel won with 22 seconds ahead: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Australian_Grand_Prix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Australian_Grand_Prix I'm sure there are enough examples to be found. Very often you have can find a margin of around 20-30 seconds between position 1 and 3 and sometimes large margins between 1 and 2.
  - vincentkriek 13y ago
    The problem is not only the +30 second lead. It's the time the 30 second lead was achieved in. After the second safety car, Vettel was just driving away from Rosberg with 2+ seconds a lap. That's an unbelievable difference, with Rosberg also racing for a top team (namely Mercedes, same team as Hamilton). There are also speculations Rosberg was on old tires and held the rest of the pack up, but still, 2+ seconds a lap is incredible.

kyro 13y ago

I love that this is really a cutthroat battle of engineering. Behind every driver there's a team of really bright individuals who are brainstorming, modeling, designing, tweaking, and refitting, to figure out just how Red Bull's doing it.

Havoc 13y ago
Plus some serious computers crunching the numbers
zonkey 13y ago
Wouldn't it be even more of an engineering battle if the drivers were replaced with computers?
- beat 13y ago
  A lot of NASCAR fans argue that F1 is just that - driving skill has been replaced by technology. I think that's nonsense. Better cars are an advantage, but ultimately, it's the driver's nerve and imagination that wins. I'd choose a lesser car with a greater driver any day.
  - hencq 13y ago
    Completely agree. On Top Gear they have a segment where they have a celebrity drive a 'reasonably priced car'. They had to create a separate scoreboard for F1 drivers, because they are all so much faster than anybody else.
    - beat 13y ago
      They also note that the F1 drivers take certain turns differently from every other driver.
  - ahlatimer 13y ago
    I wouldn't. Not in F1, at least. Not if you wanted to regularly come in the points. You could stick Vettel in a Marussia, and he'd still finish near the back of the pack.

anonymous 13y ago

Couldn't it be some sort of new notification system for the driver which gives him instinctive feedback and lets him drive the engine the same way traction control would?

alexeisadeski3 13y ago
Nope. Humans can't react nearly quickly enough for such a notification system to be of any use.
- Unosolo 13y ago
  Could that be a forecasting system that notifies the driver just in time for him to react about what is going to happen in a next moment?
  - alexeisadeski3 13y ago
    I suppose that it would be possible to predict what the driver should do x0ms in the future, and adjust your signal-to-driver to correct for that. The problem is that you'd need to be right almost every single time - a single slightly wrong prediction could quite easily cause a crash. Ultimately, I doubt that such a system (one which relies on the drivers' reaction to a TCS notification) would really gain very much. These drivers are already incredibly experienced, they have a team of professionals poring over their telemetry, and thus they are already using a sort of "traction control," albeit completely manually.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
jzzskijj 13y ago
F1 drivers surely have fast reactions, but could they really improve driver's reactions so much with a new kind of sound/light/tactile feedback, that a driver could replace TCS? Or be at least remarkably faster than drivers not using that notification technology. I find that quite unlikely. I am not confident that they have cheated either.
13y ago

rwmj 13y ago

I think they should just let the teams use whatever technology they can invent, as long as it doesn't make it unsafe. Who cares how good the drivers are? The technology is far more interesting.

paddyoloughlin 13y ago
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I believe that the market (spectators) does not agree with you and that is the reason why F1 has had more and more regulations added to it. Technological innovation appeared to be leading to a sport that was losing its spectacle more and more. And that's what the vast majority of people who watch(ed) F1 wanted. I love technological advantages as much as anyone, but people relate to people, not machines.
k-mcgrady 13y ago
That wouldn't work. Firstly the smaller teams would be gone as they couldn't afford to compete. It's also likely a lot of the mid-field teams would struggle to afford to compete (Lotus, one of the top 5 teams can't even pay it's top driver). Secondly your qualification 'as long as it doesn't make it unsafe' is one of the reasons there are so many rules in F1. It's an incredibly dangerous sport. The engineers could easily make the cars go much quicker - but it would be too dangerous and costly.
- marcosdumay 13y ago
  > It's an incredibly dangerous sport. Maybe it is time to make a clone of the race, but without the pilots.
- mafro 13y ago
  Making the cars go fast has never been the issue. Making them slow down however is quite a different thing. :)
- cmsimike 13y ago
  I would love to see that elusive budget cap implemented but if that were to happen, I would want to ease the technological limitations. Imagine the kind of innovation if you were free to do what you want up to a max of X million/year.

RaSoJo 13y ago

Minardi's old team was bought out by Dietrich Mateschitz and converted into Torro Rosso. I feel there is some bad blood still around, since it was Giancarlo Minardi who pretty much started this theory/conspiracy.

Sniperfish 13y ago

I think the BBC's article from Oct 3rd has some good commentary on this topic: "Red Bull's advantage is believed to come largely from a more effective use of the exhaust gases for aerodynamic effect. This creates more rear downforce than the other cars, meaning Vettel has the rear grip to enable him to accelerate sooner." http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24381349 http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24381349

TheCondor 13y ago
Blown diffusers. They did outlaw hot blown diffusers but blowing cold is still within the sporting regs. Thus the odd sound at low power, they are flowing air through the exhaust when they arent on the power to flow over the diffuser to provide more down force to accelerate quicker. Seems like there could be some clever uses if kers to bleed off power for traction control like applications though. This is what f1 is all about people... That's the drama and excitement. There is technology, intrigue, and then the real debates start when you simply suggest Vettel is the very best in the world and that's the difference. Fun stuff.
- AmVess 13y ago
  Yeah, the weird plut-plut-plut of the Renault engine in the RBR is a result of the cold blowing. KERS based traction control would be silent.

chiph 13y ago

the RB9 could limit power when compressed and boost power when expanded Isn't that backwards? If you're light on the suspension, that means you have less grip, and thus less traction.

CrazyCatDog 13y ago
Right turn: right suspension compressed, left wheels on the outside have further to travel, if both spinning at the same speed then you will break traction on one side or the other. Not sure what type of differentials are legal in F1, but the technology in the article is plausible in the absence of some fancy limited slip diffs.
hvidgaard 13y ago
You do not want to floor the pedal while still getting out of the corner. The side way force means you have less grip for forward motion, and too much torque to the tires and they will spin.

eaurouge 13y ago

Or maybe their technical team is just better. Adrian Newey[1] has designed some very fast cars - at Williams, McLaren and now at Red Bull. Michael Schumacher managed to win seven championships in his career, but he was often racing against a (much) more superior Newey-designed car. F1 was fun in those days. With Vettel, arguably the most talented driver to drive a Newey designed car since Senna, it's no surprise Red Bull is cleaning up. Red Bull's pace is unfortunate, because with Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi and Vettel you have four incredibly fast drivers. And without Red Bull's dominance, the current era could have been one of the most exciting in F1 history. It doesn't help that Vettel is a bit of a dick, or at least that's the perception. Schumacher was a bit of dick too, but the crowd (or a sizable portion) liked him - the fact that he didn't always have the best car, also helped. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Newey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Newey

GVIrish 13y ago
Eh, I wouldn't say Schumacher won against vastly superior Adrian Newey cars. Once Ferrari hit their stride in the Schumacher years they often beat McLaren by being far more reliable and robust. They also built up their advantage with their Bridgestone partnership to a level that made them dominant. So dominant in fact, that it led to a spec tire. Adrian Newey designs in the past ran on the ragged edge of fragility in order to make the cars as fast as possible. But that resulted in many costly DNF's that cost McLaren at least one championship. Now the Red Bull cars are still blazing fast but they're also very reliable. I'm pretty sure Red Bull is cheating with traction control through their KERS system but I'm also sure they'd be winning races without it.
- eaurouge 13y ago
  He won his first two titles in a Benetton Ford that was widely considered to be inferior to the Williamses. At Ferrari, it took the team four years after Schumacher joined, to build a car that was truly on par with the best on the grid. But even before that Schumacher had come close to winning the championship, challenging Villeneuve's Williams for the title in 97, and Hakkinen's McLaren in 98 and 99.

bowlofpetunias 13y ago

As a fan of the sport, I've so far only read about this unsubstantiated conspiracy theory on forums and low-end blogs. Wired adds no new insights, no facts, no sources, not even new speculative theories, it just rehashes old gossip. Fuck, this is one step down from Gawker. I'm so glad I stopped taken Wired seriously since the 90's.

antris 13y ago
As a non-fan of the sport, this story sounds exciting. Clearly something interesting is happening in the F1 scene, and nobody knows for sure what it is. It's a great mystery. Even if this story is a rehash of what has been already said in F1 fan blogs, it is very accessible to people who know little about the sport. Journalism is about so much more than pure facts.
- beaker52 13y ago
  "As a non-fan of the sport, this story sounds exciting. Clearly something interesting is happening in the F1 scene, and nobody knows for sure what it is. It's a great mystery." This is the case most of the time whether it's a new design, or political. That's F1.
  - mikeryan 13y ago
    The point isn't that it is or isn't interesting the point is that Wired is bringing an intriguing technical story to a population who wouldn't normally care.
- onebaddude 13y ago
  >Even if this story is a rehash of what has been already said in F1 fan blogs, it is very accessible to people who know little about the sport. Don't worry, that's just the obligatory HN top comment of: I happen to have more knowledge of the topic, therefore this article sucks. I also thought it was an interesting read.
atonse 13y ago
RBR is certainly one of those teams that is A+ in every facet. Traction control wouldn't explain their consistently amazing pitstop times, and their car's generally awesome reliability. I've been watching pretty much every F1 race for the past 3+ years, but don't read any F1 blogs. This was news to me. I have been growing a little tired of the Vettel's domination, even if it's well earned. That's why Silverstone was one of my favorite races this year. Because as soon as Vettel crashed, it was like, "oh, we have an actual race on our hands now!" and the commentators said something similar, something about it no longer just being a race for second place.

csmatt 13y ago

Obligatory Smokey Yunick mention. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokey_Yunick http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokey_Yunick The guy was a hacker in many senses of the word!

Zigurd 13y ago

My theory is that they implemented an equivalent to traction control, but with no sensors at the wheel. It's all internal to the KERS, and probably a software hack. For example, if a drop in current from the KERS indicates the motor/generator needs less power even though the throttle is open, you might be able to infer wheel-spin without measuring it directly, and momentarily shut down the KERS to reduce power to the wheels. Even if they audited the code, it might look like code that protects that motor/generator from over-revving than a software traction control.

AmVess 13y ago
How it would work is to use the KERS to charge during engine acceleration. A brilliant idea, and it wouldn't have to be plumbed into the standard McLaren ECU all the teams have to use. Lewis Hamilton stated that Vettel's RBR car was getting on full throttle 65 feet(!) sooner than all the other cars at a corner in Singapore...which means that there's clearly something going on that isn't just Newey's aero.
burgreblast 13y ago
Wow, that's a really compelling guess. I've been lucky enough to go to MC for several years and usually get at least one session on the outside of Rascasse. Everyone has problems accelerating out of that corner, especially the first 10-15 laps. They all get on the power, and oversteer. You watch their rear tires get shiny, the rear slips out of line, and you hear them back off the throttle. Except Vettel. Constant power, a strange exhaust, and never ever oversteering. I remember jumping up and down the first time I saw it: "THAT'S why he's so fast--RB have different technology. No one else can go though the turn like that. No one." I never did figure out what it could be, but your theory makes perfect sense. Thanks.
swamp40 13y ago
I think you are probably right. Your theory is getting some press, too: http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=37858:f1-spanish-media-suspect-kers-to-mimic-traction-control-on-rb9-formula-1-car&catid=1:f1&Itemid=157 http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=articl...
13y ago

ChikkaChiChi 13y ago

Personally, I'd be all for a league similar to F1 that allowed for much greater disparaties between teams. We're talking about the most well funded teams in the world; no chance of a small upstart coming in with a low bankroll and making a splash anyway.

beat 13y ago
There used to be such a beast. It was called Can-Am, and the rules were basically that cars had to have two seats, fenders, and at least one engine. Other than that, it was anything goes. It made for spectacular racing, but tended to be dominated by one team at a time, and it was ridiculously expensive. It was ultimately shut down for cost reasons.
- justin66 13y ago
  Not the sort of thing you could bring back today, even without the cost concerns. The "let's do everything we can do to make this fast" cars competing in that series killed a lot of drivers.
  - beat 13y ago
    Yeah. I used to watch Can Am when I was a little kid. Drivers got killed a lot. Those cars were insane - 1000 horsepower sometimes.
    - justin66 13y ago
      Something like the Porsche 917k30 was capable of close to 1500hp. (I can't imagine you'd actually run on race day with that setup) My dad and his friends commented on watching that car many times, and specifically the amount of noise that it made. That car was illustrative of a few of the problems with the "let's just allow the teams to build the fastest cars they possibly can!" notion. Teams didn't pay as much attention to safety in general as they should have in the seventies, but more to the point: the performance differential between some of those cars - racing on the same crowded track - was just too extreme. There is no safe way to run when that extreme difference exists.

cmsimike 13y ago

I've been keeping up on this and I don't believe it to be what Wired speculates (though I've seen those rumors myself). The generally accepted answer to this seems to be that the Redbull's engine (Renault) cuts half its cylinders[0]. Yes this can be seen as a type of _torque_ control, not traction control. The sound was what my engine sounded like when a spark plug cable came loose and thus not firing the cylinder. As for why Webber doesn't sound like that - well you can speculate that Webber just doesn't have the trust in his car as Vettel has to get on the power that early. And, if you've kept up with this season at all, you'd understand why Webber has no trust in his car[1]. [0] http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/news/racing/red-bull-traction http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/news/racing/red-bull-traction [1] https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/600837_10101889413082864_224334807_n.jpg https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/600837_1010...

graycat 13y ago

An old remark was, without rules, auto racing would soon become about as exciting as watching the jets land at JFK. Another point is, mostly sports are sold as drama, that is, about human characters the audience can identify with, characters taking on challenges. So, see lots of pictures of the drivers, that is, the characters in the drama, and commentary about the characters, but next to nothing on the engineering of the cars. So, what's the bore/stroke ratio, max piston speed, max RPMs, number of valves per cylinder, valve spring design (last I heard, they don't use metal springs and use compressed gas instead), intake boost design and pressures, intercooler design, fuel injection design, fuel chemistry, clutch design, transmission design, suspension design, etc.? Don't hear much about those details! So, it's not sold as a competition or lesson in engineering or the old "improve the breed" but as human drama. So, have rules to deemphasize the engineering and just let the drama show. On with the show!

JulianMorrison 13y ago

I wonder what a race with "truly, anything goes" as the rule for car design would be like?

brianbreslin 13y ago

I am not really a huge racing fan, but am fascinated by the innovation going on in formula 1, and other race circuits. These innovations eventually make it into mainstream cars. By self-imposing constraints, they are pushing the engineers to get creative.

swamp40 13y ago

Regarding the mysterious hidden traction control that no one can find. How about a modified wireless air pressure sensor inside the tires that also reported tire slippage? Then perhaps that slippage info gets received by electronics built into the drivers shoes? Then the millisecond acceleration and braking is controlled by actuators inside the shoes that hit the pedals, faster than any human can and using instant, actionable slippage data. When the driver walks away, nothing unusual can be found on the car when it is presented for inspection.

chrismealy 13y ago

I'm pretty sure there's a ton of money in constructors' points, way more than the entrance fee, but the prize money isn't disclosed.

lob4tt 13y ago

From http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_the_sport/8763.html http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_the_sport/87... How is the stored energy released by the driver? The regulations stipulate that the release must be completely under the driver’s control. There is a boost button on the steering wheel which can be pressed by the driver. Is it really OK to let suspension system to control the releasing of boost power?

jotm 13y ago

F1 was supposed to be about the fastest cars with the best technologies, why did they ban traction control (among other things)? What a joke...

TallGuyShort 13y ago
While I agree with your disappointment, many people believe F1 was supposed to be about the best drivers more than about the best cars. I will admit that the regulations have made the races more exciting in the sense of competition, even though I would love to see what happened if you just let the engineers go crazy.

iSloth 13y ago

The FIA must be aware of the system that they are using, buy looking at this section of the rules: 8.2.1 All components of the engine and gearbox, including clutch, differential and KERS in addition to all associated actuators must be controlled by an Electronic Control Unit (ECU) which has been manufactured by an FIA designated supplier to a specification determined by the FIA. The ECU may only be used with FIA approved software and may only be connected to the control system wiring loom, sensors and actuators in a manner specified by the FIA. Additional information regarding the ECU software versions and setup may be found in the Appendix to these regulations.

Fuzzwah 13y ago

I'm a huge F1 fan and this is the best wrap up of what red bull are probably doing: http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2013/10/so-how-is-red-bull-running-traction.html http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2013/10/so-how-is-red-bull-r...

danbmil99 13y ago

This is why I hate all sports.

WalterBright 13y ago

What I'd do if I was in charge of it (and I never would be) would be to outlaw all semiconductors in the car.