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> In 1995 I quit my regular job as senior web engineer You had the job title "senior web engineer" when the web was 4 years old. That's pretty cool.

gcb0 13y ago
US corporations tend to do that. Instead of a big raise, small raise and "senior". That can even be negotiated in hiring, so you may join as senior for a position just created in the market.
- jpmatz 13y ago
  Not only in the US, unfortunately. I've even seen company creating other kind of superlative, when lead, senior, manager or director was taken. What about "International Senior Art Director" (even if your job is basic graphic designer in a 25 persons company) ?
SomeCallMeTim 13y ago
I had a "Senior Software Engineer" title after only about 2-3 years of real-world programming experience, at age 23 or so. I had shipped a couple games as lead by then, so it wasn't entirely unearned.
- enneff 13y ago
  But I'm sure software had existed a long time before you started. The GP's point was that being a "Senior web engineer," when the web itself has only been around a few years is impressive.
  - PeterisP 13y ago
    I'd say that it is trivial - if a new topic starts and is rapidly growing, then after 3-4 years almost anybody who started working on it near the beginning would be better than 99% of everyone else (simple 99% of others are newbies in the are), and his/her tasks would include a say in 'how it should be done' and mentoring those others - so, Senior xxx.
- chris_wot 13y ago
  I was senior consultant, but for a two man organisation. The other man was the owner. Later on he told me I wasn't up to standards to be "senior" consultant. He then became the sole member of the business :-)
- EnderMB 13y ago
  I started out at a non-technical startup that was pushing a technical tool as its main product. Out of a team of three developers, I became the Lead Developer, despite having barely a year of experience, simply because I was the better programmer and was willing to call management out when they tried to make technical decisions. I was offered a choice of "Senior Developer" and "Lead Developer" and went with the lead role because I didn't feel very senior. In reality, I was barely a junior dev, and being in charge of a site that's getting millions of views was absolutely terrifying. In some ways, it was one of the best training exercises I could have. It forced me to learn things, and to learn them well. It was also total bullshit. My pay wasn't that great, and although I was working in a startup that was slowly becoming technical, had absolute control over technical decisions, and was able to turn a company that struggled with FTPing to a server into one with automated builds, regular code reviews using a new source control system (Git), and much more, it still highlighted more than anything that I really didn't have the slightest clue what I was doing. It really couldn't have gone better for me. The company was acquired, and I landed a job at a great agency, and was able to work on enough projects to actually know what I was doing, and to see what good code looks like. I'm a mid-level developer now, with much better pay, but instead of looking back over old code and laughing, I tend to look back over the time where I led the technical side of a startup and laugh.
  - SomeCallMeTim 13y ago
    Congrats! Sounds like quite a ride. :) Can you believe that when I started, barely anyone used source control? That's what jumped out at me about your story, oddly enough. When I started the Web hadn't been invented, and the only version control packages were CVS and commercial options. CVS sucks, in case you're wondering. So did most of the commercial options. In my own case I'd been programming and writing games for fun since I was 14, so by the time I took my first job at 22, I'd already been coding pretty regularly for 8 years. Some of that was actually for-pay, though only a few months worth. So between the experience I did have and my oversized ego, I pretty much expected the "Senior" label.
adamconroy 13y ago
Sorry if it reduces self-esteem, but we (software developers) are not engineers. I've been brainwashed for many years by my brother, who is a Phd civil engineer, that professions that hijack the term engineer are kidding themselves. I know it sounds cool, and my current title is 'Senior Software Engineer', but it is all a scam.
- AndyKelley 13y ago
  I'm not convinced. Care to make a case?
  - adamconroy 13y ago
    Well it is really just semantics, so there is no right or wrong, and anyone can define what particular words mean to them. But there are a couple of things that make me personally think software engineering is a misnomer. Firstly, traditional engineering disciplines are generally pretty black and white. It is applied maths and science. If you build a bridge, you can use physics and maths to pretty much prove that it will handle a particular weight/load and so forth. Software development is rarely like that, and even if you are writing software for an engineer and therefore you could argue that you can prove the calculations the system is generating, it is really the problem domain that is engineering but the way the software is put together is not so easy to prove. Secondly, I think the term actually does us a disservice. Software development requires intuition, craftsmanship, pragmatism, determination, adaptability, artistry. It also often requires understanding human nature, empathy for users, being able to learn and understand endless problem domains, an eye for the aesthetic. All of these things aren't generally required for traditional engineering disciplines.
    - Daniel_Newby 13y ago
      The distinctions you are making are mere tendencies. Automotive engineering, for instance, requires everything on your list of software development traits—in spades. I would say that the essence of engineering is a devotion to verifying that the design works like you think it works. Software development often lacks this devotion, but when it is there it is entirely proper to call it software engineering.
kjackson2012 13y ago
I find it hard to believe. In 1995 people barely knew what the internet was. I was accessing the internet through Trumpet Winsock on Windows 3.11 and had a 14.4k modem. The idea that Time Warner already had a sophisticated Web division smells like BS to me. I would accept 1997 or 1998, but not 1995.
- neilk 13y ago
  It was called Pathfinder, and it launched in 1994. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathfinder_(web_site) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathfinder_(web_site) It was not sophisticated by today's standards, but it was one of the first real magazine sites on the web. Here are some screenshots. http://www.disobey.com/ghostsites/pathfindermuseum/index.shtml http://www.disobey.com/ghostsites/pathfindermuseum/index.sht...
- perfunctory 13y ago
  How old is 'big data' thing? Would you be surprised to see a 'senior big data engineer' title these days? > The idea that Time Warner already had a sophisticated Web division smells like BS to me the title 'senior' doesn't imply the division was sophisticated. If something smells like BS, doesn't mean it can't exist. There is a lot of BS around.
- pjc50 13y ago
  It's a rank indicator, not about experience. Also, fancy job titles are free employee motivation.
  - mk270 13y ago
    The Emperor has spoken.
  - GFischer 13y ago
    "Give me enough medals and I'll win any war" attributed to Napoleon Bonaparte
- chris_wot 13y ago
  You call that sophisticated?
bonemachine 13y ago
You had the job title "senior web engineer" when the web was 4 years old. That's pretty cool. Well normally they only hired people with 6+ years of solid web development experience as senior engineers (just like no one today would think of hiring a senior Node.js developer with less than 5 years under the belt). But they decided to give the article poster a break for his people skills and Team Player potential.

gcb0 13y ago

US corporations tend to do that. Instead of a big raise, small raise and "senior". That can even be negotiated in hiring, so you may join as senior for a position just created in the market.

jpmatz 13y ago
Not only in the US, unfortunately. I've even seen company creating other kind of superlative, when lead, senior, manager or director was taken. What about "International Senior Art Director" (even if your job is basic graphic designer in a 25 persons company) ?

SomeCallMeTim 13y ago

I had a "Senior Software Engineer" title after only about 2-3 years of real-world programming experience, at age 23 or so. I had shipped a couple games as lead by then, so it wasn't entirely unearned.

enneff 13y ago
But I'm sure software had existed a long time before you started. The GP's point was that being a "Senior web engineer," when the web itself has only been around a few years is impressive.
- PeterisP 13y ago
  I'd say that it is trivial - if a new topic starts and is rapidly growing, then after 3-4 years almost anybody who started working on it near the beginning would be better than 99% of everyone else (simple 99% of others are newbies in the are), and his/her tasks would include a say in 'how it should be done' and mentoring those others - so, Senior xxx.
chris_wot 13y ago
I was senior consultant, but for a two man organisation. The other man was the owner. Later on he told me I wasn't up to standards to be "senior" consultant. He then became the sole member of the business :-)
EnderMB 13y ago
I started out at a non-technical startup that was pushing a technical tool as its main product. Out of a team of three developers, I became the Lead Developer, despite having barely a year of experience, simply because I was the better programmer and was willing to call management out when they tried to make technical decisions. I was offered a choice of "Senior Developer" and "Lead Developer" and went with the lead role because I didn't feel very senior. In reality, I was barely a junior dev, and being in charge of a site that's getting millions of views was absolutely terrifying. In some ways, it was one of the best training exercises I could have. It forced me to learn things, and to learn them well. It was also total bullshit. My pay wasn't that great, and although I was working in a startup that was slowly becoming technical, had absolute control over technical decisions, and was able to turn a company that struggled with FTPing to a server into one with automated builds, regular code reviews using a new source control system (Git), and much more, it still highlighted more than anything that I really didn't have the slightest clue what I was doing. It really couldn't have gone better for me. The company was acquired, and I landed a job at a great agency, and was able to work on enough projects to actually know what I was doing, and to see what good code looks like. I'm a mid-level developer now, with much better pay, but instead of looking back over old code and laughing, I tend to look back over the time where I led the technical side of a startup and laugh.
- SomeCallMeTim 13y ago
  Congrats! Sounds like quite a ride. :) Can you believe that when I started, barely anyone used source control? That's what jumped out at me about your story, oddly enough. When I started the Web hadn't been invented, and the only version control packages were CVS and commercial options. CVS sucks, in case you're wondering. So did most of the commercial options. In my own case I'd been programming and writing games for fun since I was 14, so by the time I took my first job at 22, I'd already been coding pretty regularly for 8 years. Some of that was actually for-pay, though only a few months worth. So between the experience I did have and my oversized ego, I pretty much expected the "Senior" label.

adamconroy 13y ago

Sorry if it reduces self-esteem, but we (software developers) are not engineers. I've been brainwashed for many years by my brother, who is a Phd civil engineer, that professions that hijack the term engineer are kidding themselves. I know it sounds cool, and my current title is 'Senior Software Engineer', but it is all a scam.

AndyKelley 13y ago
I'm not convinced. Care to make a case?
- adamconroy 13y ago
  Well it is really just semantics, so there is no right or wrong, and anyone can define what particular words mean to them. But there are a couple of things that make me personally think software engineering is a misnomer. Firstly, traditional engineering disciplines are generally pretty black and white. It is applied maths and science. If you build a bridge, you can use physics and maths to pretty much prove that it will handle a particular weight/load and so forth. Software development is rarely like that, and even if you are writing software for an engineer and therefore you could argue that you can prove the calculations the system is generating, it is really the problem domain that is engineering but the way the software is put together is not so easy to prove. Secondly, I think the term actually does us a disservice. Software development requires intuition, craftsmanship, pragmatism, determination, adaptability, artistry. It also often requires understanding human nature, empathy for users, being able to learn and understand endless problem domains, an eye for the aesthetic. All of these things aren't generally required for traditional engineering disciplines.
  - Daniel_Newby 13y ago
    The distinctions you are making are mere tendencies. Automotive engineering, for instance, requires everything on your list of software development traits—in spades. I would say that the essence of engineering is a devotion to verifying that the design works like you think it works. Software development often lacks this devotion, but when it is there it is entirely proper to call it software engineering.

kjackson2012 13y ago

I find it hard to believe. In 1995 people barely knew what the internet was. I was accessing the internet through Trumpet Winsock on Windows 3.11 and had a 14.4k modem. The idea that Time Warner already had a sophisticated Web division smells like BS to me. I would accept 1997 or 1998, but not 1995.

neilk 13y ago
It was called Pathfinder, and it launched in 1994. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathfinder_(web_site) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathfinder_(web_site) It was not sophisticated by today's standards, but it was one of the first real magazine sites on the web. Here are some screenshots. http://www.disobey.com/ghostsites/pathfindermuseum/index.shtml http://www.disobey.com/ghostsites/pathfindermuseum/index.sht...
perfunctory 13y ago
How old is 'big data' thing? Would you be surprised to see a 'senior big data engineer' title these days? > The idea that Time Warner already had a sophisticated Web division smells like BS to me the title 'senior' doesn't imply the division was sophisticated. If something smells like BS, doesn't mean it can't exist. There is a lot of BS around.
pjc50 13y ago
It's a rank indicator, not about experience. Also, fancy job titles are free employee motivation.
- mk270 13y ago
  The Emperor has spoken.
- GFischer 13y ago
  "Give me enough medals and I'll win any war" attributed to Napoleon Bonaparte
chris_wot 13y ago
You call that sophisticated?

bonemachine 13y ago

You had the job title "senior web engineer" when the web was 4 years old. That's pretty cool. Well normally they only hired people with 6+ years of solid web development experience as senior engineers (just like no one today would think of hiring a senior Node.js developer with less than 5 years under the belt). But they decided to give the article poster a break for his people skills and Team Player potential.