4 ms·

Expected. Still much, much better security than no code at all. I will use it (with full knowledge of its downsides and tradeoffs) and it would behoove the CCC

by arrrg 13y ago

Expected. Still much, much better security than no code at all. I will use it (with full knowledge of its downsides and tradeoffs) and it would behoove the CCC to not portray security as a binary state. (Just as much as it would behoove Apple to be truthful in their marketing.) Don't use it if thieves would consider going through all the effort of faking out the scanner. That's what I take from this no doubt valuable and important work from the CCC. (I assume that iPhone tracking and activation lock cannot be disabled with the fingerprint, so stolen phones will still be easily remotely wiped and bricked, with fingerprint or without. Thieves will have to be crafty and quick if the want to pull this off.)

bpatrianakos 13y ago
Yes, we often say security and think it means total protection. It doesn't. Its rare to see any security feature that cannot be bypassed or broken by some means. This is why we implement security in layers. If it were a binary state then a single layer would be sufficient. The idea is to make it so difficult to break through every layer of security that it becomes impractical but there will always be someone who does it. I also don't think Apple is dishonest in their marketing. Fingerprint scanning is absolutely better than a pass code and the marketing around it all gives the impression that using it ensures no one can unlock your phone without your fingerprint. Nothing dishonest in that. Plus the layperson really has no interest in learning the specifics anyway so I'm not sure it matters what they say about it so long as it sounds cool and futuristic.
- panzi 13y ago
  > Fingerprint scanning is absolutely better than a pass code How often can you change your fingerprint? I can change my pass code virtually an infinite number of times. How often do you inadvertently leave your pass code in random places just by touching things? A good pass code is absolutely better than fingerprint scanning.
  - Osmium 13y ago
    That's hyperbolic. How often can someone see your passcode over your shoulder? Or have it picked up by a security camera? Fingerprint scanning absolutely has advantages over pass codes. Security is all about trade-offs. This result was to be expected (in some form). What will be worry me is if the "secure enclave" where the fingerprint data is stored is cracked (and I wouldn't be surprised if that happens too eventually).
    - ce4 13y ago
      Your point is moot. As soon as your fp is digitally available online. E.g.,the CCC has captured and published former german minister of the interior, Wolfgang Schäuble's fingerprint in 2008 [1]. This finger of him is not secure any more and readily available via a google image search. [1] http://www.h-online.com/newsticker/news/item/CCC-publishes-fingerprints-of-German-Home-Secretary-734713.html http://www.h-online.com/newsticker/news/item/CCC-publishes-f...
      - Osmium 13y ago
        Agreed: that's why I said it would be especially worrying if this "secure enclave" Apple talks about is cracked and if it's then possible to reconstruct fingerprints from the data inside. But unless that happens, the iPhone itself doesn't make my fingerprints any easier to leak; someone can already get them from everything I touch!
  - ce4 13y ago
    Even worse: Other manufacturers will jump ship and this sort of device becomes omnipresent on smartphones. Probably, apps will get access to capture raw prints themselves at some time. Someone will start to store real and unhashed fp's in their database. As happening frequently with databases containing CC numbers (and even CC pins), that DB will eventually get copied and accessible on the net. Buying one's fp data will become possible at some point.
    - MBCook 13y ago
makomk 13y ago
Not that expected. I know a lot of people were BSing about how much more secure Apple's fingerprint sensor was and how the usual techniques for faking a finger wouldn't work on it, including some security researchers.
- thrownaway2424 13y ago
  Yes. I anxiously await Gruber's lengthy post-mortem about the fingerprint reader being just as bad as all previous fingerprint readers, equal in number, length and enthusiasm to his previous posts about how wonderful and advanced it is.
  - Anechoic 13y ago
    I know folks love to have on Gruber, but looking at df.net I don't see where he has compared the security of TouchID to other fingerprint readers - rather he's compared the convenience and performance of TouchID to other fingerprint implementations, and I don't know that anything in the OP would, or should, change his assessment of that. (not an iPhone or Android user, at least not yet).
    - yapcguy 13y ago
      Gruber is an ignorant fanboy. There are too many examples to pick from, but here's a recent one. In his iPhone 5S review he rambles on about how Apple is an innovator and picks out the A7 procesor, TouchID and a new burst-mode camera feature: "But the real innovation — there’s that word — is software, right there on the device itself, that makes it easy to select only the shots from those bursts that you really want to keep, and to throw away the rest." Yet Samsung did the same thing for the S3 back in 2012. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxXEAyuoyQk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxXEAyuoyQk
      - melange 13y ago
        So rather than addressing the point, you attack him on something completely different. Presumably because there are actually no examples where he's been wrong about TouchID.

by arrrg 13y ago

bpatrianakos 13y ago

Yes, we often say security and think it means total protection. It doesn't. Its rare to see any security feature that cannot be bypassed or broken by some means. This is why we implement security in layers. If it were a binary state then a single layer would be sufficient. The idea is to make it so difficult to break through every layer of security that it becomes impractical but there will always be someone who does it. I also don't think Apple is dishonest in their marketing. Fingerprint scanning is absolutely better than a pass code and the marketing around it all gives the impression that using it ensures no one can unlock your phone without your fingerprint. Nothing dishonest in that. Plus the layperson really has no interest in learning the specifics anyway so I'm not sure it matters what they say about it so long as it sounds cool and futuristic.

panzi 13y ago
> Fingerprint scanning is absolutely better than a pass code How often can you change your fingerprint? I can change my pass code virtually an infinite number of times. How often do you inadvertently leave your pass code in random places just by touching things? A good pass code is absolutely better than fingerprint scanning.
- Osmium 13y ago
  That's hyperbolic. How often can someone see your passcode over your shoulder? Or have it picked up by a security camera? Fingerprint scanning absolutely has advantages over pass codes. Security is all about trade-offs. This result was to be expected (in some form). What will be worry me is if the "secure enclave" where the fingerprint data is stored is cracked (and I wouldn't be surprised if that happens too eventually).
  - ce4 13y ago
    Your point is moot. As soon as your fp is digitally available online. E.g.,the CCC has captured and published former german minister of the interior, Wolfgang Schäuble's fingerprint in 2008 [1]. This finger of him is not secure any more and readily available via a google image search. [1] http://www.h-online.com/newsticker/news/item/CCC-publishes-fingerprints-of-German-Home-Secretary-734713.html http://www.h-online.com/newsticker/news/item/CCC-publishes-f...
    - Osmium 13y ago
      Agreed: that's why I said it would be especially worrying if this "secure enclave" Apple talks about is cracked and if it's then possible to reconstruct fingerprints from the data inside. But unless that happens, the iPhone itself doesn't make my fingerprints any easier to leak; someone can already get them from everything I touch!
- ce4 13y ago
  Even worse: Other manufacturers will jump ship and this sort of device becomes omnipresent on smartphones. Probably, apps will get access to capture raw prints themselves at some time. Someone will start to store real and unhashed fp's in their database. As happening frequently with databases containing CC numbers (and even CC pins), that DB will eventually get copied and accessible on the net. Buying one's fp data will become possible at some point.
  - MBCook 13y ago

makomk 13y ago

Not that expected. I know a lot of people were BSing about how much more secure Apple's fingerprint sensor was and how the usual techniques for faking a finger wouldn't work on it, including some security researchers.

thrownaway2424 13y ago
Yes. I anxiously await Gruber's lengthy post-mortem about the fingerprint reader being just as bad as all previous fingerprint readers, equal in number, length and enthusiasm to his previous posts about how wonderful and advanced it is.
- Anechoic 13y ago
  I know folks love to have on Gruber, but looking at df.net I don't see where he has compared the security of TouchID to other fingerprint readers - rather he's compared the convenience and performance of TouchID to other fingerprint implementations, and I don't know that anything in the OP would, or should, change his assessment of that. (not an iPhone or Android user, at least not yet).
  - yapcguy 13y ago
    Gruber is an ignorant fanboy. There are too many examples to pick from, but here's a recent one. In his iPhone 5S review he rambles on about how Apple is an innovator and picks out the A7 procesor, TouchID and a new burst-mode camera feature: "But the real innovation — there’s that word — is software, right there on the device itself, that makes it easy to select only the shots from those bursts that you really want to keep, and to throw away the rest." Yet Samsung did the same thing for the S3 back in 2012. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxXEAyuoyQk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxXEAyuoyQk
    - melange 13y ago
      So rather than addressing the point, you attack him on something completely different. Presumably because there are actually no examples where he's been wrong about TouchID.