7 ms·

Louis C.K.: I won't let my kids have cell phones

71 points by kunai 13y ago

leephillips 13y ago
This is a smart guy.
- vladimirralev 13y ago
  People are adapting to texting and emails very quickly, especially the new generation. It's not true that you are somehow less responsible for what you write in a text message these days. In fact I think the only reason for somebody to believe otherwise is that at least you have it now on record as opposed to hearing nothing or rumors who said what when.
  - psbp 13y ago
    I think he's arguing against the excuse for avoiding healthy interaction rather than the medium of communication. If text messaging provoked us to be more earnest and empathetic, then it wouldn't be considered as much of a problem.
    - vladimirralev 13y ago
      I understand that. But I am arguing that people are not less empathetic. People are the same. The expressive power of the text message is worse, but this is being fixed very quickly. If you count community-ranked reputation-based systems (such as say HN) it will be far superior to the so called "healthy interaction" in terms of efficiency and trust. Then there is video and audio communication. Perfectly viable to run 100 million dollar businesses and relationships. It's really not that bad.
- cko 13y ago
  I agree. I think he has a high degree of self-awareness, and he is able to communicate in a way that many people can understand.
shn 13y ago
Resistance is futile. (unfortunately)
- rll 13y ago
  I dunno, I am 44 and have never had a cell phone nor do I see the need for one. It's not that hard to resist.
s_q_b 13y ago
I have a rock in my pocket that has access to all of the world's knowledge. Why would anyone deprive another human being of that?
- kunai 13y ago
  Because they might also have a boulder on their desk at home that has access to all the world's knowledge as well?
  - s_q_b 13y ago
    Say that sentence out loud and I think you'll understand my point. Look, I understand the tremendously damaging addictive potential of new technologies. We've seen this again and again, from Pong to World of Warcraft, these devices provide dopamine and must be treated with caution. But is it wise to cloister our children away from these developments? Or is it better that they learn to adapt, especially in a world where the speed of technological advancement, and the addictive potential inherent therein, is accelerating at a rapid pace? Personally, I know which choice makes sense to me.
    - reader5000 13y ago
      I would rather have my kids be well adapted to interacting with other humans versus interacting with wikipedia.
    - kohanz 13y ago
      I guess it depends on how young we're talking when we say "children". It's all up to each individual parent, but personally, for the early years, I think there is plenty enough to see, learn and experience in the physical and social world that there's no need to introduce the virtual world. Nor do I think that learning about phones, the internet, etc. at a slightly later age is a negative in any sense.
    - jimbokun 13y ago
      "But is it wise to cloister our children away from these developments? Or is it better that they learn to adapt, especially in a world where the speed of technological advancement, and the addictive potential inherent therein, is accelerating at a rapid pace?" No, but I think the timing is critical. I do think a lot about the right time to grant access to specific pieces of technology. I think my wife and I are more conservative in this regard than many of the people around us. With the kind of people my sons are turning into, we're pretty happy with the results so far. Which is obviously a totally unscientific opinion, as we are not going to start running controlled studies on our kids. It's one of the difficult things about being a parent, you never know for sure what the results would be if you had made different decisions.
rodly 13y ago
I don't think his argument makes a ton of sense. Children still interact through school, recess, sports, etc. Yes, they might post something hateful on Facebook or text something insulting to a friend but they still get to see the effects of their actions by comments. They still have to answer for their words the next day or right in the comment thread. No child wants to be excluded and will learn to play nice eventually. Phones can probably be related to board games or cards of the years past. Children have always found ways to keep to themselves when they're bored.
- muzz 13y ago
  Yes, CK is equating ownership with excessive use.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    Which, statistically, it's pretty much correct.
    - jamesaguilar 13y ago
      What statistics are those?
    - Ygg2 13y ago
      Which statistic? To me it's highly unlikely all people are excesive users. Like excessive users of Firefox with 5+ tabs are like 8-11%.
      - coldtea 13y ago
        My personal exhaustive statistics of nearly every kid with a phone I've seen. Where excessive = anything beyond taking the ocassional call, sending a few text messages and playing a game for half an hour. Some people think excessive has to mean "needs to be sedated before someone can take the phone off his hands".
        13y ago
rabino 13y ago
Related: this is a great essay on the topic. http://m.chronicle.com/article/The-End-of-Solitude/3708 http://m.chronicle.com/article/The-End-of-Solitude/3708
Spittie 13y ago
I'm not a parent. I'm not old enough to have lived in an age when phones weren't common (19 years old). And I totally agree with him. I didn't have myself my first phone until I was 14 years old (with some exceptions, like when going on school trips), and I can't thanks my parents enough for this. I agree that smartphones can be really useful. You have infinite knowledge in your hand when you have a smartphone and a connection to internet. But, you can also start depending on it. I know several people that can't leave their smartphones alone for more than 5 minutes, even when involved in social events. And it's not to access knowledge, it's either to chat with someone else, or check the latest "meme" over facebook. Yes, it's "having fun", but when you're not able to live the moment, and have to access Facebook/Whatsapp every 5 minutes, it's called dependence. Hopefully, Louis's child will not get into it. Thanks to their dad, they'll learn to enjoy real life, to enjoy the moment. And when they'll get their first smartphone, they'll be to busy enjoying their live to use it everytime.
- alaskamiller 13y ago
  I'll let you in on a secret. You are likely boring in person, so your friends turn to little pocket computer games to entertain themselves instead. Your friends are also rude little kids that lack the ability to control themselves. Either way you all will grow out of it. You'll get old and boring, and those computer games turn into little email and skype apps where you constantly have to maintain for the sake of a job because your work life balance is whackadoodle. But for the most part you'll grow out of caring about your little phone because... here's the god honest truth... it's all pretty boring. Louis CK didn't tap into some new found glory, but at 19 you think he did, not realizing this just yet another repost, an old truth we keep rediscovering... that kids these days are always little tyrants. Socrates said it. Plato quoted it. Every single generation thereafter grow up and comment about it. Way back it was books of "questionable" morals and alcohol. Back then it was gangsta rap and MTV. Nowadays it's Farmville and iPhones. Next it's going to be fake realities and fake projections. There is always going to be something made by somebody else to distract you. It'll be okay. Take a deep breath. It'll be okay. You're on a fast track ticket to being old.
- goblinfoblin 13y ago
  I'm a bit older than you (6 years) and had a cell phone since I was in (I think) middle school. My phone was primarily for staying in contact with my mother because I was out of the house a large amount of the time, you don't need a smartphone for this. At this time I think it probably would suck to be older than 13 and not have a phone, everyone you know is going to have one and that is going to be how they communicate with their friends if you don't have one you will get left out of the loop. It is a parents choice but it might hurt children socially, on the other hand there were a few outliers in my high school who spent every minute of class on their phone (before smartphones were big) but this could be solved with prepaid phones.
vectorpush 13y ago
Why don't we just teach children how to practice moderation? Unless as a punishment, I think it makes more sense to simply guide them as to when phone use is appropriate or excessive and make sure to be stern with those standards. This is not a new problem, it's pretty similar to the generation before us dealing with kids who stayed in all day playing video games. Sure, the kid will do whatever they want once they're out of your sight, but at the end of the day they'll insert your lessons into the category of "behaviors that adults expect me to embrace" and the individual child will react accordingly.
Klinky 13y ago
When did Louis C.K. become the guru of the internet, and when did parents decide they should accept parenting advice from a comic who's act is extremely child unfriendly? Not only do I think a child not having a cellphone(even just a basic one) is a security risk, but I'd also think it could lead to less of a social life, not more of one. Kids not fitting into their peer group and being ostracized or picked on due to a lack of a phone/smartphone probably doesn't seem like a big deal to the 20, 30, or 40-something parent. Probably because that 20,30, or 40-something parent has forgotten what it was like to be a 7th grader. It also breeds feelings of resentment, and it portrays to the child a beautiful example of hypocrisy, as the parental unit continues to use the so-called "socially destructive" devices. If you are not planning on giving your child a cellphone because you're afraid of it's destructive effect on their ability to communicate with other human beings, then what more are you doing to encourage social growth in your child? Not giving your kid a cellphone is a passive action, not a proactive action.
- Helianthus 13y ago
  Let's be clear, Louis C.K. is a parent, and in general any advice given to parents is a priori given to caveat emptor.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- nether 13y ago
  http://www.theonion.com/articles/magazine-runs-article-about-louis-ck,32300/ http://www.theonion.com/articles/magazine-runs-article-about...
- kunai 13y ago
  A child will not get shot or kidnapped for not having a cell phone, and those who will ostracize your child because of the technology they don't have don't deserve to be your kid's friend anyhow. One could say that there is an ostensible social and security risk in not having a cell phone compared to if one didn't have a cell phone, but the risk really is very low, and if that level of risk disturbs you, an el-cheapo prepaid phone with no minutes on it (just 911) will suffice. I think people forget that we lived not even as early as 5 years ago where smartphones were not considered a necessity. Kids did fine with basic or no cell phones at all. And before you pull the "Did you forget 7th grade" argument, I'm in high school. I only own an unactivated iPhone for development and testing, and really never call anyone.
hooande 13y ago
I find it hard to disagree with Louis on this one. Overstimulation is a thing, and we live in a culture where the common case is for a room full of people to be staring at hunks of plastic instead of talking to one another. Let's be honest, given cellphones children are most likely to cyberbully, sext and drastically increase the intensity of the social feedback loop that is adolescence. Internet access in any form factor can be a gateway to all of the world's knowledge, but the majority of people don't use 4G connections for high minded purposes. I personally have a hard time coming up with a case where an internet connected cell phone is absolutely necessary for anything. In my experience I've usually been able to wait until I get home (with the exception of looking up lost directions). All of that being said, I don't think cellphones will bring about the end of childhood. "If everybody else is doing it..." isn't the worst argument when it comes to teenaged children, especially for larger values of "everyone else". If cellphones are truly harmful to child development then we're all screwed anyway. The overwhelming majority of teenagers have phones now... what's the point of one person teaching their kids how to communicate the old fashioned way if everybody else in the world is glued to a small screen? Like everything else that children will be exposed to, cellphones are a matter of self control. It seems like it would be better to have long two way conversations with children about how to socialize properly and how they can be better than their tech-addicted friends. It's possible that forbidding the phone is a parenting easy out. It could take more time and effort to raise children who can resist the siren call of facebook updates. We shouldn't confuse nostalgia for strong values. There has to be a balance between standing up for what we believe in as parents and giving children an experience that's consistent with the century that they were born in.
mmagin 13y ago
I'm kind of glad I didn't have a cell phone until I was 23. That's right around the point they became really mainstream, not just for the business types or the heavy telephone users. When you could get crazy replacement phone cases for your Nokia in Chinatown with trademark-infringing graphics on them. But I digress. It definitely feels like most people inherently tend toward having difficulty moderating their use of any technology that has a tight reward feedback loop. I think the interesting question here is whether giving kids a mobile phone enhances their psychological 'immune system' as an adult, or whether it just instills these patterns of almost-addictive mobile phone use earlier on at an age when it's more important to be learning basic facts, developing critical thinking skills, and developing creative ability.

71 points by kunai 13y ago

leephillips 13y ago

This is a smart guy.

vladimirralev 13y ago
People are adapting to texting and emails very quickly, especially the new generation. It's not true that you are somehow less responsible for what you write in a text message these days. In fact I think the only reason for somebody to believe otherwise is that at least you have it now on record as opposed to hearing nothing or rumors who said what when.
- psbp 13y ago
  I think he's arguing against the excuse for avoiding healthy interaction rather than the medium of communication. If text messaging provoked us to be more earnest and empathetic, then it wouldn't be considered as much of a problem.
  - vladimirralev 13y ago
    I understand that. But I am arguing that people are not less empathetic. People are the same. The expressive power of the text message is worse, but this is being fixed very quickly. If you count community-ranked reputation-based systems (such as say HN) it will be far superior to the so called "healthy interaction" in terms of efficiency and trust. Then there is video and audio communication. Perfectly viable to run 100 million dollar businesses and relationships. It's really not that bad.
cko 13y ago
I agree. I think he has a high degree of self-awareness, and he is able to communicate in a way that many people can understand.

shn 13y ago

Resistance is futile. (unfortunately)

rll 13y ago
I dunno, I am 44 and have never had a cell phone nor do I see the need for one. It's not that hard to resist.

s_q_b 13y ago

I have a rock in my pocket that has access to all of the world's knowledge. Why would anyone deprive another human being of that?

kunai 13y ago
Because they might also have a boulder on their desk at home that has access to all the world's knowledge as well?
- s_q_b 13y ago
  Say that sentence out loud and I think you'll understand my point. Look, I understand the tremendously damaging addictive potential of new technologies. We've seen this again and again, from Pong to World of Warcraft, these devices provide dopamine and must be treated with caution. But is it wise to cloister our children away from these developments? Or is it better that they learn to adapt, especially in a world where the speed of technological advancement, and the addictive potential inherent therein, is accelerating at a rapid pace? Personally, I know which choice makes sense to me.
  - reader5000 13y ago
    I would rather have my kids be well adapted to interacting with other humans versus interacting with wikipedia.
  - kohanz 13y ago
    I guess it depends on how young we're talking when we say "children". It's all up to each individual parent, but personally, for the early years, I think there is plenty enough to see, learn and experience in the physical and social world that there's no need to introduce the virtual world. Nor do I think that learning about phones, the internet, etc. at a slightly later age is a negative in any sense.
  - jimbokun 13y ago
    "But is it wise to cloister our children away from these developments? Or is it better that they learn to adapt, especially in a world where the speed of technological advancement, and the addictive potential inherent therein, is accelerating at a rapid pace?" No, but I think the timing is critical. I do think a lot about the right time to grant access to specific pieces of technology. I think my wife and I are more conservative in this regard than many of the people around us. With the kind of people my sons are turning into, we're pretty happy with the results so far. Which is obviously a totally unscientific opinion, as we are not going to start running controlled studies on our kids. It's one of the difficult things about being a parent, you never know for sure what the results would be if you had made different decisions.

rodly 13y ago

I don't think his argument makes a ton of sense. Children still interact through school, recess, sports, etc. Yes, they might post something hateful on Facebook or text something insulting to a friend but they still get to see the effects of their actions by comments. They still have to answer for their words the next day or right in the comment thread. No child wants to be excluded and will learn to play nice eventually. Phones can probably be related to board games or cards of the years past. Children have always found ways to keep to themselves when they're bored.

muzz 13y ago
Yes, CK is equating ownership with excessive use.
- coldtea 13y ago
  Which, statistically, it's pretty much correct.
  - jamesaguilar 13y ago
    What statistics are those?
  - Ygg2 13y ago
    Which statistic? To me it's highly unlikely all people are excesive users. Like excessive users of Firefox with 5+ tabs are like 8-11%.
    - coldtea 13y ago
      My personal exhaustive statistics of nearly every kid with a phone I've seen. Where excessive = anything beyond taking the ocassional call, sending a few text messages and playing a game for half an hour. Some people think excessive has to mean "needs to be sedated before someone can take the phone off his hands".
      - 13y ago

rabino 13y ago

Related: this is a great essay on the topic. http://m.chronicle.com/article/The-End-of-Solitude/3708 http://m.chronicle.com/article/The-End-of-Solitude/3708

Spittie 13y ago

I'm not a parent. I'm not old enough to have lived in an age when phones weren't common (19 years old). And I totally agree with him. I didn't have myself my first phone until I was 14 years old (with some exceptions, like when going on school trips), and I can't thanks my parents enough for this. I agree that smartphones can be really useful. You have infinite knowledge in your hand when you have a smartphone and a connection to internet. But, you can also start depending on it. I know several people that can't leave their smartphones alone for more than 5 minutes, even when involved in social events. And it's not to access knowledge, it's either to chat with someone else, or check the latest "meme" over facebook. Yes, it's "having fun", but when you're not able to live the moment, and have to access Facebook/Whatsapp every 5 minutes, it's called dependence. Hopefully, Louis's child will not get into it. Thanks to their dad, they'll learn to enjoy real life, to enjoy the moment. And when they'll get their first smartphone, they'll be to busy enjoying their live to use it everytime.

alaskamiller 13y ago
I'll let you in on a secret. You are likely boring in person, so your friends turn to little pocket computer games to entertain themselves instead. Your friends are also rude little kids that lack the ability to control themselves. Either way you all will grow out of it. You'll get old and boring, and those computer games turn into little email and skype apps where you constantly have to maintain for the sake of a job because your work life balance is whackadoodle. But for the most part you'll grow out of caring about your little phone because... here's the god honest truth... it's all pretty boring. Louis CK didn't tap into some new found glory, but at 19 you think he did, not realizing this just yet another repost, an old truth we keep rediscovering... that kids these days are always little tyrants. Socrates said it. Plato quoted it. Every single generation thereafter grow up and comment about it. Way back it was books of "questionable" morals and alcohol. Back then it was gangsta rap and MTV. Nowadays it's Farmville and iPhones. Next it's going to be fake realities and fake projections. There is always going to be something made by somebody else to distract you. It'll be okay. Take a deep breath. It'll be okay. You're on a fast track ticket to being old.
goblinfoblin 13y ago
I'm a bit older than you (6 years) and had a cell phone since I was in (I think) middle school. My phone was primarily for staying in contact with my mother because I was out of the house a large amount of the time, you don't need a smartphone for this. At this time I think it probably would suck to be older than 13 and not have a phone, everyone you know is going to have one and that is going to be how they communicate with their friends if you don't have one you will get left out of the loop. It is a parents choice but it might hurt children socially, on the other hand there were a few outliers in my high school who spent every minute of class on their phone (before smartphones were big) but this could be solved with prepaid phones.

vectorpush 13y ago

Why don't we just teach children how to practice moderation? Unless as a punishment, I think it makes more sense to simply guide them as to when phone use is appropriate or excessive and make sure to be stern with those standards. This is not a new problem, it's pretty similar to the generation before us dealing with kids who stayed in all day playing video games. Sure, the kid will do whatever they want once they're out of your sight, but at the end of the day they'll insert your lessons into the category of "behaviors that adults expect me to embrace" and the individual child will react accordingly.

Klinky 13y ago

When did Louis C.K. become the guru of the internet, and when did parents decide they should accept parenting advice from a comic who's act is extremely child unfriendly? Not only do I think a child not having a cellphone(even just a basic one) is a security risk, but I'd also think it could lead to less of a social life, not more of one. Kids not fitting into their peer group and being ostracized or picked on due to a lack of a phone/smartphone probably doesn't seem like a big deal to the 20, 30, or 40-something parent. Probably because that 20,30, or 40-something parent has forgotten what it was like to be a 7th grader. It also breeds feelings of resentment, and it portrays to the child a beautiful example of hypocrisy, as the parental unit continues to use the so-called "socially destructive" devices. If you are not planning on giving your child a cellphone because you're afraid of it's destructive effect on their ability to communicate with other human beings, then what more are you doing to encourage social growth in your child? Not giving your kid a cellphone is a passive action, not a proactive action.

Helianthus 13y ago
Let's be clear, Louis C.K. is a parent, and in general any advice given to parents is a priori given to caveat emptor.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
nether 13y ago
http://www.theonion.com/articles/magazine-runs-article-about-louis-ck,32300/ http://www.theonion.com/articles/magazine-runs-article-about...
kunai 13y ago
A child will not get shot or kidnapped for not having a cell phone, and those who will ostracize your child because of the technology they don't have don't deserve to be your kid's friend anyhow. One could say that there is an ostensible social and security risk in not having a cell phone compared to if one didn't have a cell phone, but the risk really is very low, and if that level of risk disturbs you, an el-cheapo prepaid phone with no minutes on it (just 911) will suffice. I think people forget that we lived not even as early as 5 years ago where smartphones were not considered a necessity. Kids did fine with basic or no cell phones at all. And before you pull the "Did you forget 7th grade" argument, I'm in high school. I only own an unactivated iPhone for development and testing, and really never call anyone.

hooande 13y ago

I find it hard to disagree with Louis on this one. Overstimulation is a thing, and we live in a culture where the common case is for a room full of people to be staring at hunks of plastic instead of talking to one another. Let's be honest, given cellphones children are most likely to cyberbully, sext and drastically increase the intensity of the social feedback loop that is adolescence. Internet access in any form factor can be a gateway to all of the world's knowledge, but the majority of people don't use 4G connections for high minded purposes. I personally have a hard time coming up with a case where an internet connected cell phone is absolutely necessary for anything. In my experience I've usually been able to wait until I get home (with the exception of looking up lost directions). All of that being said, I don't think cellphones will bring about the end of childhood. "If everybody else is doing it..." isn't the worst argument when it comes to teenaged children, especially for larger values of "everyone else". If cellphones are truly harmful to child development then we're all screwed anyway. The overwhelming majority of teenagers have phones now... what's the point of one person teaching their kids how to communicate the old fashioned way if everybody else in the world is glued to a small screen? Like everything else that children will be exposed to, cellphones are a matter of self control. It seems like it would be better to have long two way conversations with children about how to socialize properly and how they can be better than their tech-addicted friends. It's possible that forbidding the phone is a parenting easy out. It could take more time and effort to raise children who can resist the siren call of facebook updates. We shouldn't confuse nostalgia for strong values. There has to be a balance between standing up for what we believe in as parents and giving children an experience that's consistent with the century that they were born in.

mmagin 13y ago

I'm kind of glad I didn't have a cell phone until I was 23. That's right around the point they became really mainstream, not just for the business types or the heavy telephone users. When you could get crazy replacement phone cases for your Nokia in Chinatown with trademark-infringing graphics on them. But I digress. It definitely feels like most people inherently tend toward having difficulty moderating their use of any technology that has a tight reward feedback loop. I think the interesting question here is whether giving kids a mobile phone enhances their psychological 'immune system' as an adult, or whether it just instills these patterns of almost-addictive mobile phone use earlier on at an age when it's more important to be learning basic facts, developing critical thinking skills, and developing creative ability.