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Hipster-hate strikes me as just another thinly veiled form of bullying, and it's interesting to see how readily internet nerds - the people who are disproportio

Hipster-hate strikes me as just another thinly veiled form of bullying, and it's interesting to see how readily internet nerds - the people who are disproportionately to have been bullied in the past - engage in it. Look! He's different! Let's make assumptions about his motivations and get him! It's also interesting to see how many times Reddit (and other communities) fly into a rage-fest because of lack of context, only to make an about-face when the full picture comes out. It's also interesting how no matter how many times this exact situation happens, there is no stopping the next rage-fest. Above all other things, internet communities is what makes me cynical about humanity.

mikestew 13y ago
"it's interesting to see how readily internet nerds - the people who are disproportionately to have been bullied in the past - engage in it." My theory has been that the downtrodden are pissed because they're on the receiving end, not because it's wrong, evidenced by many examples of them engaging in the same behavior when the opportunity presents itself. Whether it's immigrant minorities or geeks/nerds, the pattern seems to come up time and again.
- roc 13y ago
  It's simpler (and more universal) than that: tribal identity is based on ascribing virtues to the tribe -- and vices to others -- based not on objective reality but based on their own values. "We do the things that we perceive as good for reasons we perceive as good. They do the things that we perceive as bad for reasons that we perceive as bad." And the teasing/bullying of members of other tribes is just a core human behavior to reinforce status within their own tribe. "Look at how well I recognize what's wrong with them! I'm a good one of us!"
  - gurkendoktor 13y ago
    But then the next question is, why does the geek tribe pick on the hipster tribe as nastily as it does? I don't see the same amount of _personal_ hatred against bankers, or people who do sports to the extreme. Weren't hipsters the least likely to pick on geeks (me)? Is that why they're now at the bottom of the pecking order? I don't see how a difference in values alone explains it.
blhack 13y ago
This is really common, unfortunately. People who are raised being abused, or being excluded, are taught that those in power should abuse or exclude those not in power.
- criley2 13y ago
  "cycle of abuse"
- eshvk 13y ago
  Naipaul wrote about this when he was talking about post-colonial societies that ended up as brutal as the white man they replaced. "Hate oppression but fear the oppressed."
  - smsm42 13y ago
    Just because some people are oppressed, it doesn't mean they are all nice and pleasant otherwise. "Noble savage" is a western invention, but many undeveloped (from out POV) societies are brutal, violent and harsh without any external influence, just by themselves. Being brutal is natural, being nice comes later.
OriginalAT 13y ago
The whole situation would have been completely different if people waited for some context and explanation. Unfortunately pre-judging people based on quick first impressions is something pretty much everyone does. Some are just more vocal about it. I quit browsing Reddit because of the comment sections.
bolder88 13y ago
The other funny thing is that there's a violent dislike of mainstream media on websites such as Reddit, and constant criticism when news stations take things out of context. Then they do things like this themselves on a daily basis!
- idProQuo 13y ago
  ^People write this comment on Reddit a lot. The one I'm about to write, they also write this one too. You can't talk about Reddit as a hivemind, because it isn't one person, or even a definite collective of people. The people who take things out of context, and the people who call them out, are different sets of people. If Reddit seems to have multiple personalities, it's because... well, it does.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    Particularly obnoxious is when the most popular comments are in the vein of "most people here are being idiots" or "'the hivemind' disagrees with this, but..." Really? Most people? Then why is your comment the most popular comment? (Hint: because the majority of people like to believe themselves superior to the majority of people. 'If everyone is being dumb but me, then that means I am unusually smart!')
  - bolder88 13y ago
    It's a fascinating example of what happens when very bored people get together online and start swarming about as if they were one person though. Mob rule, hivemind, internet hate groups, react first, research / put into context later. Also pretty ugly to watch. I don't bother commenting on Reddit anymore, and rarely on here. There is absolutely no point.
  - criley2 13y ago
    Also, and possibly more importantly: Each subreddit is a dramatically different place. Subreddits like /r/politics and /r/worldnews have devolved into very stereotypical circlejerks or very blind pro-snowden fervor. And, with the reach that some of these larger subreddits achieve, it's naive to assume they are not actively manipulated. There's always rumors and occasional wisps of evidence of intentional bias being enforced by moderators in secret. It's best to judge reddit by community, especially for subjects like "news" where there are several different communities with very different approaches in practice.
drzaiusapelord 13y ago
On top of it, geek culture is a hipster culture. Oh you listen to obscure geeky bands and wear comic/anime t-shirts all the time? You purposely disengage from mainstream society? You're overly critical of the status quo and only socialize with people exactly like you? Gee, that sounds like the guy you're criticizing.
- Torgo 13y ago
  I can't help but feel that a large portion of the current "geek culture" is a collection of appropriations from a different group, selected for "authenticity", similar to criticisms of the wider hipster culture. I wore thick-rim glasses because 1. I didn't/couldn't care about fashion 2. my parents didn't have the money for nicer frames and 3. I actually could not see without glasses. So yeah, when I see thick rim glasses being worn _because_ they "look geeky," or worse, without even any lenses because the person has perfect vision, it annoys me a little bit. Because I got treated like dog shit by the exact same class of person who now dresses in a parody of my life as a frivolous fashion decision.
  - md224 13y ago
    I grew up wearing "dorky" glasses, switched to vertically narrower frames, and now wear a pair of Warby Parker retro-ish glasses (http://bit.ly/1btLNTC http://bit.ly/1btLNTC for reference). So as someone who's been on both sides, I find your response pretty interesting. I can understand your annoyance and you're certainly entitled to it. I suppose the first thing I did when I read your post is ask myself "Well, why do I wear these glasses?" The simple answer is that my girlfriend thought I should get new glasses, so we picked out a bunch from Warby Parker to try on and she liked these the best. But even though she picked them out, I was complicit in the choice; if she had picked out some sort of bizarrely-shaped polka-dotted frame, I'm pretty sure I would've vetoed that. So there was some part of me that said "hey, I kinda like how I look in these." Now, does this mean I'm appropriating a look that was formerly a magnet for bullies? Maybe. But the key thing to remember when considering the relationship between ridicule and compliments is that both are equally arbitrary. There was no reason for people to mock you or me for our choice of glasses back then, just like there's no intrinsic reason that these same glasses should appear attractive 10 years later. That's just how fashion/culture works. I think if someone personally harassed someone else for wearing "dorky" glasses, and then later decided to wear that same style of glasses to appear fashionable while continuing to deride people that don't share their taste in clothing, then yeah, that would seem pretty hypocritical.
sliverstorm 13y ago
it's interesting to see how readily internet nerds - the people who are disproportionately to have been bullied in the past - engage in it. Nothing new there. This how pecking orders form in human society; people who are pushed around look for other people to push around, to feel better about themselves.
- georgemcbay 13y ago
  Agreed. In my experience the worst bullies are always people who are "paying it forward". That bully who stuffed the smaller kids the locker at school? He was probably being bullied at home by bad parents. Works also with "internet nerds" with a history of being bullied. Give them an ounce of leverage and they will lord it over other people, they just tend to engage in psychological bullying instead of the physical kind.
Camillo 13y ago
I found it interesting that the redditors - or, as some might say, the "straight white male neckbeards" of Reddit - quickly turned apologetic when they heard the full story, while the enlightened feminists at xoJane ignored the new facts and persisted in their vitriol.
- md224 13y ago
  You also have to consider the context; the xoJane post was about a breakup, and it's a natural tendency for people to demonize another person's ex as a way of providing emotional support (not saying this is ideal, but it seems pretty common).
- veridies 13y ago
  The situations aren't exactly analogous. All reddit had to go on was a photograph, whereas xoJane's userbase were told the story by someone directly wronged by this guy. (At least as they perceived it.)
corresation 13y ago
Reddit is visited by tens of millions of people of virtually every demographic. Corralling them as "internet nerds" seems a bit like you're trying for some bullying yourself. In any case, talk about much ado about absolutely nothing. A bunch of people said silly things, largely under the assumption that it was no consequence (that no one was hurt, etc): In many ways the comments on there are performance art. It is the most astonishingly meaningless thing going, and really the purpose of this entry that we're discussing is the chap talking a moment to extend that fifteen minutes. Above all other things, internet communities is what makes me cynical about humanity. People declaring their cynicism about humanity (or trite variations like "faith restored") make me cynical about humanity.
- yetanotherphd 13y ago
  >Corralling them as "internet nerds" seems a bit like you're trying for some bullying yourself. Exactly. Encouraging the stereotype that in addition to having deserved bullying in high school for their poor social skills, nerds deserved bullying because they are mean spirited and just waiting till it's their turn to be the bully.
- jmduke 13y ago
  Reddit is visited by tens of millions of people of virtually every demographic. Corralling them as "internet nerds" seems a bit like you're trying for some bullying yourself. The post to which you're replying didn't even mention Reddit. Reddit is by no means the only place where a nerdy demographic (and I'll define 'nerdy demographic' as 18-25 that skew towards STEM education and exhibit above-average internet usage) tends to engage in destructive behavior, but they're certainly guilty of it. A bunch of people said silly things, largely under the assumption that it was no consequence (that no one was hurt, etc) The whole point of the article is the inherent falsity of the assumption that what you do online has diminished/no consequences. People who are on the Internet tend to forget that literally everybody else is on the Internet too. Being a jackass isn't somehow excusable just because you don't know who you're being a jackass to (in fact, some would argue that it makes it worse.)
  - jlgreco 13y ago
josefresco 13y ago
Author summarizes the rage quite well: "The reaction, then, had nothing to do with hipsters. It was a hatred of people that need to stand out for standing-out's sake. That realization was at once positive and negative—people didn't hate me because I was a hipster, they hated me because I looked like I was nakedly desperate for attention, and had gone about that attention-grabbing by glomming on to marginalized trends." I believe that statement would be true even without the "glomming" part. Societies seem to both love and hate attention seekers. We pour accolades on attention-seeking celebrities, but scowl at neighbors who buy flashy cars or ride a Penny-farthing (I had to look that up) seemingly only for the attention.
- dnautics 13y ago
  "It was a hatred of people that need to stand out for standing-out's sake. That realization was at once positive and negative—people didn't hate me because I was a hipster, they hated me because I looked like I was nakedly desperate for attention, and had gone about that attention-grabbing by glomming on to marginalized trends" But that is (one) definition of hipster. Casual speculation: Would the situation have been different if the sign advertising the service weren't hidden? I think yes. Would the situation have been different if he weren't wearing stereotypical "hipster attire", and instead were in say a pinstripe suit? I think yes.
  - ebiester 13y ago
    Eh, I'd think hipster if I saw a pinstripe suit. Loose fitting jeans and a polo, however, might do it.
    - prawn 13y ago
      They he'd just be a hipster doing it wrong...
- roc 13y ago
  Typically, celebrities acquire accolades for having done things of note, other than attention-seeking. [1] The ones that deliberately seek attention for its own sake get as much scorn as anyone else; they're essentially tabloid heels. And they exist for the same reason cable news is in such a state: There just isn't enough 'news' to justify 24x7 coverage, so programming must be invented that is, by definition, not things that would otherwise be considered news. [2] [1] Without stepping into discussion of merit, our culture does ascribe value to people who play sports well, act well, are likable parts of the media, are fashionable/attractive, etc. [2] There are cross-overs, sure. Some famous-for-being-famous types cross over into 'actual' celebrity. But that's more an effect of the secondary content operating as a 'farm league' of sorts. They throw a lot of famous-for-being-famous / 'reality-star' stuff against the wall and graduate anything that 'sticks'. And I personally wonder at what point the 'celebrity media' will start openly paying C and D-listers directly, to generate content. e.g. pay a couple fashion models to go to the beach and provide photo content. maybe even get some clothing labels on-board to under-write the thing for the sake of having -their- products featured and plugged in the resulting copy. But I digress.
agentultra 13y ago
This is going to sound inflammatory but I basically consider anyone younger than around 25 to be functionally insane. They're in a period in their life where they seriously believe that they cannot spend the rest of their lives with someone who doesn't have the same taste in music as they do. You're busy cultivating a sense of identity, I get it. But more often than not you grow up and find yourself in love with someone who likes everything you used to hate and you find it endearing. It's not a bad thing and I try not to treat anyone differently because of it... but young people pick on each other for these sorts of things. That's pretty insane IMO. Update I could probably justify this comment by making a point other than, "young whipper snappers be cray, yo." Hipster hate has been around for years. I find that it comes from young, self-conscious people posturing and picking on other people based on the way they look, the music they like, and other trivial things. It's cruel to pick on other people for something so utterly trivial. There's nothing thinly veiled about it, IMO: it's just bullying and it seems to be a phenomenon I strongly attribute to young people. Maybe that makes me an old, ignorant, ruddy-duddy but I seriously haven't really heard someone over the age of 30 or so make snarky remarks about how so-and-so is such a hipster douchebag. They'd get funny looks and people might think, "What is this, high school!?" I think someone should make this a youtube video. Old people picking on other old people for liking obscure bands young people have never heard of in forty years. Calling them hipsters (a term that originated in the 50s beat movement, no?).
- badman_ting 13y ago
  Ha, I know what you mean. But it's not the kids I'm worried about, it's the adults.
  - nooneelse 13y ago
    Perhaps the cultural pendulum has swung a bit too far into elevating the voices of those with traits of psychological neoteny. How could we insert a counterbalancing force of support for mental gerontomorphic features in online discourse?
- smsm42 13y ago
  Unfortunately, biological age and mental age don't always go hand in hand.
sc00ter 13y ago
Ah yes, because that kind of thing never happens on HN...
- potatolicious 13y ago
  Oh it most certainly does, which is why I use this site less and less over time, and referred to "internet communities" in general, Reddit being only one of many.
derefr 13y ago
I find it interesting how the word "hipster" has morphed in usage over the last five-or-so years. Originally, as far as I could tell, it had a specific meaning: "someone who prefers unknown bands just for their being unknown, and dislikes well-known bands just for their being well-known." This, obviously, is a person to not hold in high regard--their mannerism, after all, is entirely defined by contempt for the majority of humanity. ("As soon as everyone likes it, I hate it.") Then an image and a lifestyle got attached to it--some mix of the effete New Yorker, the post-punk Seattlite, and the "urban woodsman" Portlander. And now it just refers to those things, and no longer really carries the requirement that the person so-labelled define themselves via contrarianism and contempt. But language influences thought, people still remember the old meaning, and "slur it forward": seeing people who are hipsters-as-in-culture and assuming they're worthy of the same contempt given to hipsters-as-in-contemptuous-assholes.
- cma 13y ago
  Hipster goes back way further; hippie actually derives from it and not vice versa. And it isn't a term that just completely died out in the 50s and was reborn in the aughts (e.g. in Seinfeld, Kramer gets called a "Hipster Doofus").
- Dylan16807 13y ago
  Has it really changed that way? As far as I'm aware it still carries the requirement they the person defines themselves via contrarianism and contempt; that image is just a big blinking warning sign.
  - derefr 13y ago
    I'm pretty sure there's a large contingent of people who self-identify as hipsters--in that they dress like them, enjoy bands hipsters used to like at some defining moment ca. 2006, etc.--but enjoy mainstream culture otherwise.
jonnathanson 13y ago
"Above all other things, internet communities is what makes me cynical about humanity." The internet is like alcohol: it doesn't put ideas into people's heads. It just lowers their inhibitions. If people are being dicks on the internet, it's because they are dicks, and the internet gives them a relatively consequence-free forum for expressing their dickitude. If we're "cynical about humanity" because of "internet communities," we should be "cynical about humanity" because of humanity, full stop.
- aninhumer 13y ago
  >it doesn't put ideas into people's heads. I'm going to assume this statement was meant as a rhetorical device, because on its own it's clearly ridiculous. Of course the internet puts ideas into people's heads. More generally, while I understand the point you're making, I think you're underestimating the influence of a community on the behaviour of its members. I would say that by far the most significant factor causing people to be dicks on the internet are communities that normalise that kind of behaviour. People see others criticising "hipsters" and they are taught that this behaviour is accepted and even encouraged. Many of these people would be offended by the same behaviour in real life, and not even notice the hypocrisy.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
roc 13y ago
Given the most core of the criticisms of hipsterism are its judgementalism and superiority complex, your argument seems to be tantamount to decrying the bullying of bullies, or the lack of tolerance for the intolerant.
- jessedhillon 13y ago
  Is that really the core criticism of hipsterdom? I hear much more often the appropriation of poor/outsider chic and concordance devaluation of intrinsic meaning. Consider the kiffeyeh (plaid arabesque scarf) worn originally to signal solidarity with Palestinians. Now the overriding significance of it, when you see it worn (it's a little dated now) is that of an empty fashion trend. Another common critique I hear is the mindless pursuit of "authenticity", an aping of anything whose style is "old" -- the automatic assumption that old is authentic, and authentic is better. These are, in my mind, two core branches of an otherwise very difficult to define notion.
  - roc 13y ago
    > "Is that really the core criticism of hipsterdom?" How would a hipster caricature respond to the kiffeyeh becoming an empty fashion trend? "I wore it before it was cool" i.e. I was better/smarter/above simple fashion herding. So, yeah. I think that's the over-riding common thread linking the various branches and spectra of hipsterdom and the one thing that's almost universally criticized wherever hipsters are being discussed.
- flumbaps 13y ago
  The core criticism is always that hipsters are purposefully contrary as a method of attention seeking. Also, being judgemental and having a superiority complex are very different to bullying. Thinking you are better than someone is very different to telling them they are worse than you.
mathattack 13y ago
The strange thing about NYC is weird hipsters (and yes I'll call him that) are one of the things that make such a commerce driven city a livable place. They're behind random cool stuff in the park, most of the bars with really awesome beers, and a lot of the other quirks that makes a financial center liveable. Of course they just get bullied as a result...
darkchasma 13y ago
It's interesting how in one sentence you identify a slight against 'hipsters', and then fall into slighting another group in the same comment...
vacri 13y ago
Hipsterism itself is thinly-veiled bullying - it's essentially "I'm cool and you're not". It's like before Apple became really popular, some users exhibited a 'smug field', where they considered themselves better people for using this elite product, being part of those 'in the know', and were just better than you. I have an aunt who was like that, who would mock me for not using Apple... yet she couldn't articulate why. It was just 'better', and she'd backed it. Hipsterism is like that, putting on airs without having the substance, and that annoys people. Above all other things, internet communities is what makes me cynical about humanity. Pre-internet communities were far from unicorns and rainbows. Conformity was much more strongly required.
- flumbaps 13y ago
  "Putting on airs" is not bullying. Being smug is not bullying. Your Aunt mocking you could be a form of bullying, however, I strongly doubt that your Aunt is representative of the hipster movement.
  - Loughla 13y ago
    Being smug and putting on airs are bullying. Subtle, but still bullying. It's exclusionary and it's condescending. Imagine this: Young nerdy guy sees incredibly popular hipster guy in his high school listening to some band, I don't know WAM! or whatever the kids listen to these days. Either way, young nerdy guy LOVES that band, but has only recently started listening to it. So he decides to strike up a conversation with popular hipster about WAM's newest album. Popular hipster shuts him down simply by saying, "Oh, yeah, that album's okay, if you like mainstream sounds, but I've been listening to them for like 5 years now. You should hear their unreleased Japanese single called 'Kuma o tabetai'." Young nerd now has nothing to talk about, and shambles away. Not OVERT bullying, but it is absolutely asserting dominance in an aggressive way through exclusion.
- gurkendoktor 13y ago
  > Pre-internet communities were far from unicorns and rainbows. Conformity was much more strongly required. Yes, but if someone took an embarrassing photo of you, you could move to another city and be done with it. There's no escape from internet ridicule. I honestly don't know if I'll be able to handle the world of Google Glass & co where no public faux pas will be forgotten - at least the OP was out there in the public by his own choice. :/
TWAndrews 13y ago
Being bullied doesn't breed sensitivity--quite often the reverse.
fixxer 13y ago
I personally really like hipsters. They made tattoos non-scary. Before them, it was all bikers and sailors... many of them want to hurt me. I'm sort of joking and sort of very serious. I think hipsters, with their funny tight pants, single-speed bikes, and amusing attention to facial hair, have had a positive influence on society. The world needs people to be overly fixated on the mundane, or else we get too productive. I personally am not cool in any way, nor do I aspire to indicate coolness through my physical appearance. I've got a wife, a kid, and a mortgage. I just can't spare the cycles trying to look cool. But, I'm happy the hipsters are out there. Plus, some of them serve excellent coffee.
Kiro 13y ago
I don't know. Where I'm from the hipsters are the bullies.
mbesto 13y ago
> Above all other things, internet communities is what makes me cynical about humanity. What makes an internet community any different from any "other" community? They are both human social constructs. The only difference I would argue is that online communities are much more public about their members' views. "Offline" communities can often hide under a veil of an organizational hierarchy of structure (usually in the form of a representative such as "head of").
zamryok 13y ago
It amazes me how so many commenters here can miss an essential point about hipsters and hipster-hate. Hipster-hate is more than bullying, it can be understood if we consider that socio-economic classes are at war with each other: in this understanding, hipsters are the ones that have crossed the trench lines. They're percieved as people who mostly come from a wealthy white background, from which they want to be independent, but which gives them a certain legacy and advantage over non-white poor people. This helps them colonize/gentrify poor neighborhoods, thus pushing the prices up and paving the way for the city to push it's poor further away. Not to mention the fact that they are easy targets from the traditional upper class who percieves them as "willfully bohemian". We have the same kind of hate here in France for our "bobos". Hipster hate has a material economic basis.
Tycho 13y ago
I think it's considered 'OK' to hate hipsters. You won't be considered racist, sexist, agist or anything. So I guess it's an outlet of sorts.
pintglass 13y ago
While I agree with some of what you are saying and I don't join in hipster hate, I think this is the main thing: Any self-righteous style that tries to come off as cool and aloof that seem ridiculous to others is going to be made fun of. It doesn't matter what it is. Portlandia makes fun of hipsters. Zoolander made fun of high fashion. Be yourself first and foremost: type on an old typewriter in the park, wear RPGs even though you were never formerly in the military, drink double Doppios from non-chain coffee shops, and break up with a girl because she said PETA stood for People Eating Tasty Animals. But being made fun of comes with that game.

mikestew 13y ago

"it's interesting to see how readily internet nerds - the people who are disproportionately to have been bullied in the past - engage in it." My theory has been that the downtrodden are pissed because they're on the receiving end, not because it's wrong, evidenced by many examples of them engaging in the same behavior when the opportunity presents itself. Whether it's immigrant minorities or geeks/nerds, the pattern seems to come up time and again.

roc 13y ago
It's simpler (and more universal) than that: tribal identity is based on ascribing virtues to the tribe -- and vices to others -- based not on objective reality but based on their own values. "We do the things that we perceive as good for reasons we perceive as good. They do the things that we perceive as bad for reasons that we perceive as bad." And the teasing/bullying of members of other tribes is just a core human behavior to reinforce status within their own tribe. "Look at how well I recognize what's wrong with them! I'm a good one of us!"
- gurkendoktor 13y ago
  But then the next question is, why does the geek tribe pick on the hipster tribe as nastily as it does? I don't see the same amount of _personal_ hatred against bankers, or people who do sports to the extreme. Weren't hipsters the least likely to pick on geeks (me)? Is that why they're now at the bottom of the pecking order? I don't see how a difference in values alone explains it.

blhack 13y ago

This is really common, unfortunately. People who are raised being abused, or being excluded, are taught that those in power should abuse or exclude those not in power.

criley2 13y ago
"cycle of abuse"
eshvk 13y ago
Naipaul wrote about this when he was talking about post-colonial societies that ended up as brutal as the white man they replaced. "Hate oppression but fear the oppressed."
- smsm42 13y ago
  Just because some people are oppressed, it doesn't mean they are all nice and pleasant otherwise. "Noble savage" is a western invention, but many undeveloped (from out POV) societies are brutal, violent and harsh without any external influence, just by themselves. Being brutal is natural, being nice comes later.

OriginalAT 13y ago

The whole situation would have been completely different if people waited for some context and explanation. Unfortunately pre-judging people based on quick first impressions is something pretty much everyone does. Some are just more vocal about it. I quit browsing Reddit because of the comment sections.

bolder88 13y ago

The other funny thing is that there's a violent dislike of mainstream media on websites such as Reddit, and constant criticism when news stations take things out of context. Then they do things like this themselves on a daily basis!

idProQuo 13y ago
^People write this comment on Reddit a lot. The one I'm about to write, they also write this one too. You can't talk about Reddit as a hivemind, because it isn't one person, or even a definite collective of people. The people who take things out of context, and the people who call them out, are different sets of people. If Reddit seems to have multiple personalities, it's because... well, it does.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Particularly obnoxious is when the most popular comments are in the vein of "most people here are being idiots" or "'the hivemind' disagrees with this, but..." Really? Most people? Then why is your comment the most popular comment? (Hint: because the majority of people like to believe themselves superior to the majority of people. 'If everyone is being dumb but me, then that means I am unusually smart!')
- bolder88 13y ago
  It's a fascinating example of what happens when very bored people get together online and start swarming about as if they were one person though. Mob rule, hivemind, internet hate groups, react first, research / put into context later. Also pretty ugly to watch. I don't bother commenting on Reddit anymore, and rarely on here. There is absolutely no point.
- criley2 13y ago
  Also, and possibly more importantly: Each subreddit is a dramatically different place. Subreddits like /r/politics and /r/worldnews have devolved into very stereotypical circlejerks or very blind pro-snowden fervor. And, with the reach that some of these larger subreddits achieve, it's naive to assume they are not actively manipulated. There's always rumors and occasional wisps of evidence of intentional bias being enforced by moderators in secret. It's best to judge reddit by community, especially for subjects like "news" where there are several different communities with very different approaches in practice.

drzaiusapelord 13y ago

On top of it, geek culture is a hipster culture. Oh you listen to obscure geeky bands and wear comic/anime t-shirts all the time? You purposely disengage from mainstream society? You're overly critical of the status quo and only socialize with people exactly like you? Gee, that sounds like the guy you're criticizing.

Torgo 13y ago
I can't help but feel that a large portion of the current "geek culture" is a collection of appropriations from a different group, selected for "authenticity", similar to criticisms of the wider hipster culture. I wore thick-rim glasses because 1. I didn't/couldn't care about fashion 2. my parents didn't have the money for nicer frames and 3. I actually could not see without glasses. So yeah, when I see thick rim glasses being worn _because_ they "look geeky," or worse, without even any lenses because the person has perfect vision, it annoys me a little bit. Because I got treated like dog shit by the exact same class of person who now dresses in a parody of my life as a frivolous fashion decision.
- md224 13y ago
  I grew up wearing "dorky" glasses, switched to vertically narrower frames, and now wear a pair of Warby Parker retro-ish glasses (http://bit.ly/1btLNTC http://bit.ly/1btLNTC for reference). So as someone who's been on both sides, I find your response pretty interesting. I can understand your annoyance and you're certainly entitled to it. I suppose the first thing I did when I read your post is ask myself "Well, why do I wear these glasses?" The simple answer is that my girlfriend thought I should get new glasses, so we picked out a bunch from Warby Parker to try on and she liked these the best. But even though she picked them out, I was complicit in the choice; if she had picked out some sort of bizarrely-shaped polka-dotted frame, I'm pretty sure I would've vetoed that. So there was some part of me that said "hey, I kinda like how I look in these." Now, does this mean I'm appropriating a look that was formerly a magnet for bullies? Maybe. But the key thing to remember when considering the relationship between ridicule and compliments is that both are equally arbitrary. There was no reason for people to mock you or me for our choice of glasses back then, just like there's no intrinsic reason that these same glasses should appear attractive 10 years later. That's just how fashion/culture works. I think if someone personally harassed someone else for wearing "dorky" glasses, and then later decided to wear that same style of glasses to appear fashionable while continuing to deride people that don't share their taste in clothing, then yeah, that would seem pretty hypocritical.

sliverstorm 13y ago

it's interesting to see how readily internet nerds - the people who are disproportionately to have been bullied in the past - engage in it. Nothing new there. This how pecking orders form in human society; people who are pushed around look for other people to push around, to feel better about themselves.

georgemcbay 13y ago
Agreed. In my experience the worst bullies are always people who are "paying it forward". That bully who stuffed the smaller kids the locker at school? He was probably being bullied at home by bad parents. Works also with "internet nerds" with a history of being bullied. Give them an ounce of leverage and they will lord it over other people, they just tend to engage in psychological bullying instead of the physical kind.

Camillo 13y ago

I found it interesting that the redditors - or, as some might say, the "straight white male neckbeards" of Reddit - quickly turned apologetic when they heard the full story, while the enlightened feminists at xoJane ignored the new facts and persisted in their vitriol.

md224 13y ago
You also have to consider the context; the xoJane post was about a breakup, and it's a natural tendency for people to demonize another person's ex as a way of providing emotional support (not saying this is ideal, but it seems pretty common).
veridies 13y ago
The situations aren't exactly analogous. All reddit had to go on was a photograph, whereas xoJane's userbase were told the story by someone directly wronged by this guy. (At least as they perceived it.)

corresation 13y ago

Reddit is visited by tens of millions of people of virtually every demographic. Corralling them as "internet nerds" seems a bit like you're trying for some bullying yourself. In any case, talk about much ado about absolutely nothing. A bunch of people said silly things, largely under the assumption that it was no consequence (that no one was hurt, etc): In many ways the comments on there are performance art. It is the most astonishingly meaningless thing going, and really the purpose of this entry that we're discussing is the chap talking a moment to extend that fifteen minutes. Above all other things, internet communities is what makes me cynical about humanity. People declaring their cynicism about humanity (or trite variations like "faith restored") make me cynical about humanity.

yetanotherphd 13y ago
>Corralling them as "internet nerds" seems a bit like you're trying for some bullying yourself. Exactly. Encouraging the stereotype that in addition to having deserved bullying in high school for their poor social skills, nerds deserved bullying because they are mean spirited and just waiting till it's their turn to be the bully.
jmduke 13y ago
Reddit is visited by tens of millions of people of virtually every demographic. Corralling them as "internet nerds" seems a bit like you're trying for some bullying yourself. The post to which you're replying didn't even mention Reddit. Reddit is by no means the only place where a nerdy demographic (and I'll define 'nerdy demographic' as 18-25 that skew towards STEM education and exhibit above-average internet usage) tends to engage in destructive behavior, but they're certainly guilty of it. A bunch of people said silly things, largely under the assumption that it was no consequence (that no one was hurt, etc) The whole point of the article is the inherent falsity of the assumption that what you do online has diminished/no consequences. People who are on the Internet tend to forget that literally everybody else is on the Internet too. Being a jackass isn't somehow excusable just because you don't know who you're being a jackass to (in fact, some would argue that it makes it worse.)
- jlgreco 13y ago

josefresco 13y ago

Author summarizes the rage quite well: "The reaction, then, had nothing to do with hipsters. It was a hatred of people that need to stand out for standing-out's sake. That realization was at once positive and negative—people didn't hate me because I was a hipster, they hated me because I looked like I was nakedly desperate for attention, and had gone about that attention-grabbing by glomming on to marginalized trends." I believe that statement would be true even without the "glomming" part. Societies seem to both love and hate attention seekers. We pour accolades on attention-seeking celebrities, but scowl at neighbors who buy flashy cars or ride a Penny-farthing (I had to look that up) seemingly only for the attention.

dnautics 13y ago
"It was a hatred of people that need to stand out for standing-out's sake. That realization was at once positive and negative—people didn't hate me because I was a hipster, they hated me because I looked like I was nakedly desperate for attention, and had gone about that attention-grabbing by glomming on to marginalized trends" But that is (one) definition of hipster. Casual speculation: Would the situation have been different if the sign advertising the service weren't hidden? I think yes. Would the situation have been different if he weren't wearing stereotypical "hipster attire", and instead were in say a pinstripe suit? I think yes.
- ebiester 13y ago
  Eh, I'd think hipster if I saw a pinstripe suit. Loose fitting jeans and a polo, however, might do it.
  - prawn 13y ago
    They he'd just be a hipster doing it wrong...
roc 13y ago
Typically, celebrities acquire accolades for having done things of note, other than attention-seeking. [1] The ones that deliberately seek attention for its own sake get as much scorn as anyone else; they're essentially tabloid heels. And they exist for the same reason cable news is in such a state: There just isn't enough 'news' to justify 24x7 coverage, so programming must be invented that is, by definition, not things that would otherwise be considered news. [2] [1] Without stepping into discussion of merit, our culture does ascribe value to people who play sports well, act well, are likable parts of the media, are fashionable/attractive, etc. [2] There are cross-overs, sure. Some famous-for-being-famous types cross over into 'actual' celebrity. But that's more an effect of the secondary content operating as a 'farm league' of sorts. They throw a lot of famous-for-being-famous / 'reality-star' stuff against the wall and graduate anything that 'sticks'. And I personally wonder at what point the 'celebrity media' will start openly paying C and D-listers directly, to generate content. e.g. pay a couple fashion models to go to the beach and provide photo content. maybe even get some clothing labels on-board to under-write the thing for the sake of having -their- products featured and plugged in the resulting copy. But I digress.

agentultra 13y ago

This is going to sound inflammatory but I basically consider anyone younger than around 25 to be functionally insane. They're in a period in their life where they seriously believe that they cannot spend the rest of their lives with someone who doesn't have the same taste in music as they do. You're busy cultivating a sense of identity, I get it. But more often than not you grow up and find yourself in love with someone who likes everything you used to hate and you find it endearing. It's not a bad thing and I try not to treat anyone differently because of it... but young people pick on each other for these sorts of things. That's pretty insane IMO. Update I could probably justify this comment by making a point other than, "young whipper snappers be cray, yo." Hipster hate has been around for years. I find that it comes from young, self-conscious people posturing and picking on other people based on the way they look, the music they like, and other trivial things. It's cruel to pick on other people for something so utterly trivial. There's nothing thinly veiled about it, IMO: it's just bullying and it seems to be a phenomenon I strongly attribute to young people. Maybe that makes me an old, ignorant, ruddy-duddy but I seriously haven't really heard someone over the age of 30 or so make snarky remarks about how so-and-so is such a hipster douchebag. They'd get funny looks and people might think, "What is this, high school!?" I think someone should make this a youtube video. Old people picking on other old people for liking obscure bands young people have never heard of in forty years. Calling them hipsters (a term that originated in the 50s beat movement, no?).

badman_ting 13y ago
Ha, I know what you mean. But it's not the kids I'm worried about, it's the adults.
- nooneelse 13y ago
  Perhaps the cultural pendulum has swung a bit too far into elevating the voices of those with traits of psychological neoteny. How could we insert a counterbalancing force of support for mental gerontomorphic features in online discourse?
smsm42 13y ago
Unfortunately, biological age and mental age don't always go hand in hand.

sc00ter 13y ago

Ah yes, because that kind of thing never happens on HN...

potatolicious 13y ago
Oh it most certainly does, which is why I use this site less and less over time, and referred to "internet communities" in general, Reddit being only one of many.

derefr 13y ago

I find it interesting how the word "hipster" has morphed in usage over the last five-or-so years. Originally, as far as I could tell, it had a specific meaning: "someone who prefers unknown bands just for their being unknown, and dislikes well-known bands just for their being well-known." This, obviously, is a person to not hold in high regard--their mannerism, after all, is entirely defined by contempt for the majority of humanity. ("As soon as everyone likes it, I hate it.") Then an image and a lifestyle got attached to it--some mix of the effete New Yorker, the post-punk Seattlite, and the "urban woodsman" Portlander. And now it just refers to those things, and no longer really carries the requirement that the person so-labelled define themselves via contrarianism and contempt. But language influences thought, people still remember the old meaning, and "slur it forward": seeing people who are hipsters-as-in-culture and assuming they're worthy of the same contempt given to hipsters-as-in-contemptuous-assholes.

cma 13y ago
Hipster goes back way further; hippie actually derives from it and not vice versa. And it isn't a term that just completely died out in the 50s and was reborn in the aughts (e.g. in Seinfeld, Kramer gets called a "Hipster Doofus").
Dylan16807 13y ago
Has it really changed that way? As far as I'm aware it still carries the requirement they the person defines themselves via contrarianism and contempt; that image is just a big blinking warning sign.
- derefr 13y ago
  I'm pretty sure there's a large contingent of people who self-identify as hipsters--in that they dress like them, enjoy bands hipsters used to like at some defining moment ca. 2006, etc.--but enjoy mainstream culture otherwise.

jonnathanson 13y ago

"Above all other things, internet communities is what makes me cynical about humanity." The internet is like alcohol: it doesn't put ideas into people's heads. It just lowers their inhibitions. If people are being dicks on the internet, it's because they are dicks, and the internet gives them a relatively consequence-free forum for expressing their dickitude. If we're "cynical about humanity" because of "internet communities," we should be "cynical about humanity" because of humanity, full stop.

aninhumer 13y ago
>it doesn't put ideas into people's heads. I'm going to assume this statement was meant as a rhetorical device, because on its own it's clearly ridiculous. Of course the internet puts ideas into people's heads. More generally, while I understand the point you're making, I think you're underestimating the influence of a community on the behaviour of its members. I would say that by far the most significant factor causing people to be dicks on the internet are communities that normalise that kind of behaviour. People see others criticising "hipsters" and they are taught that this behaviour is accepted and even encouraged. Many of these people would be offended by the same behaviour in real life, and not even notice the hypocrisy.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

roc 13y ago

Given the most core of the criticisms of hipsterism are its judgementalism and superiority complex, your argument seems to be tantamount to decrying the bullying of bullies, or the lack of tolerance for the intolerant.

jessedhillon 13y ago
Is that really the core criticism of hipsterdom? I hear much more often the appropriation of poor/outsider chic and concordance devaluation of intrinsic meaning. Consider the kiffeyeh (plaid arabesque scarf) worn originally to signal solidarity with Palestinians. Now the overriding significance of it, when you see it worn (it's a little dated now) is that of an empty fashion trend. Another common critique I hear is the mindless pursuit of "authenticity", an aping of anything whose style is "old" -- the automatic assumption that old is authentic, and authentic is better. These are, in my mind, two core branches of an otherwise very difficult to define notion.
- roc 13y ago
  > "Is that really the core criticism of hipsterdom?" How would a hipster caricature respond to the kiffeyeh becoming an empty fashion trend? "I wore it before it was cool" i.e. I was better/smarter/above simple fashion herding. So, yeah. I think that's the over-riding common thread linking the various branches and spectra of hipsterdom and the one thing that's almost universally criticized wherever hipsters are being discussed.
flumbaps 13y ago
The core criticism is always that hipsters are purposefully contrary as a method of attention seeking. Also, being judgemental and having a superiority complex are very different to bullying. Thinking you are better than someone is very different to telling them they are worse than you.

mathattack 13y ago

The strange thing about NYC is weird hipsters (and yes I'll call him that) are one of the things that make such a commerce driven city a livable place. They're behind random cool stuff in the park, most of the bars with really awesome beers, and a lot of the other quirks that makes a financial center liveable. Of course they just get bullied as a result...

darkchasma 13y ago

It's interesting how in one sentence you identify a slight against 'hipsters', and then fall into slighting another group in the same comment...

vacri 13y ago

Hipsterism itself is thinly-veiled bullying - it's essentially "I'm cool and you're not". It's like before Apple became really popular, some users exhibited a 'smug field', where they considered themselves better people for using this elite product, being part of those 'in the know', and were just better than you. I have an aunt who was like that, who would mock me for not using Apple... yet she couldn't articulate why. It was just 'better', and she'd backed it. Hipsterism is like that, putting on airs without having the substance, and that annoys people. Above all other things, internet communities is what makes me cynical about humanity. Pre-internet communities were far from unicorns and rainbows. Conformity was much more strongly required.

flumbaps 13y ago
"Putting on airs" is not bullying. Being smug is not bullying. Your Aunt mocking you could be a form of bullying, however, I strongly doubt that your Aunt is representative of the hipster movement.
- Loughla 13y ago
  Being smug and putting on airs are bullying. Subtle, but still bullying. It's exclusionary and it's condescending. Imagine this: Young nerdy guy sees incredibly popular hipster guy in his high school listening to some band, I don't know WAM! or whatever the kids listen to these days. Either way, young nerdy guy LOVES that band, but has only recently started listening to it. So he decides to strike up a conversation with popular hipster about WAM's newest album. Popular hipster shuts him down simply by saying, "Oh, yeah, that album's okay, if you like mainstream sounds, but I've been listening to them for like 5 years now. You should hear their unreleased Japanese single called 'Kuma o tabetai'." Young nerd now has nothing to talk about, and shambles away. Not OVERT bullying, but it is absolutely asserting dominance in an aggressive way through exclusion.
gurkendoktor 13y ago
> Pre-internet communities were far from unicorns and rainbows. Conformity was much more strongly required. Yes, but if someone took an embarrassing photo of you, you could move to another city and be done with it. There's no escape from internet ridicule. I honestly don't know if I'll be able to handle the world of Google Glass & co where no public faux pas will be forgotten - at least the OP was out there in the public by his own choice. :/

TWAndrews 13y ago

Being bullied doesn't breed sensitivity--quite often the reverse.

fixxer 13y ago

I personally really like hipsters. They made tattoos non-scary. Before them, it was all bikers and sailors... many of them want to hurt me. I'm sort of joking and sort of very serious. I think hipsters, with their funny tight pants, single-speed bikes, and amusing attention to facial hair, have had a positive influence on society. The world needs people to be overly fixated on the mundane, or else we get too productive. I personally am not cool in any way, nor do I aspire to indicate coolness through my physical appearance. I've got a wife, a kid, and a mortgage. I just can't spare the cycles trying to look cool. But, I'm happy the hipsters are out there. Plus, some of them serve excellent coffee.

Kiro 13y ago

I don't know. Where I'm from the hipsters are the bullies.

mbesto 13y ago

> Above all other things, internet communities is what makes me cynical about humanity. What makes an internet community any different from any "other" community? They are both human social constructs. The only difference I would argue is that online communities are much more public about their members' views. "Offline" communities can often hide under a veil of an organizational hierarchy of structure (usually in the form of a representative such as "head of").

zamryok 13y ago

It amazes me how so many commenters here can miss an essential point about hipsters and hipster-hate. Hipster-hate is more than bullying, it can be understood if we consider that socio-economic classes are at war with each other: in this understanding, hipsters are the ones that have crossed the trench lines. They're percieved as people who mostly come from a wealthy white background, from which they want to be independent, but which gives them a certain legacy and advantage over non-white poor people. This helps them colonize/gentrify poor neighborhoods, thus pushing the prices up and paving the way for the city to push it's poor further away. Not to mention the fact that they are easy targets from the traditional upper class who percieves them as "willfully bohemian". We have the same kind of hate here in France for our "bobos". Hipster hate has a material economic basis.

Tycho 13y ago

I think it's considered 'OK' to hate hipsters. You won't be considered racist, sexist, agist or anything. So I guess it's an outlet of sorts.

pintglass 13y ago

While I agree with some of what you are saying and I don't join in hipster hate, I think this is the main thing: Any self-righteous style that tries to come off as cool and aloof that seem ridiculous to others is going to be made fun of. It doesn't matter what it is. Portlandia makes fun of hipsters. Zoolander made fun of high fashion. Be yourself first and foremost: type on an old typewriter in the park, wear RPGs even though you were never formerly in the military, drink double Doppios from non-chain coffee shops, and break up with a girl because she said PETA stood for People Eating Tasty Animals. But being made fun of comes with that game.