13 ms·
Now that we have to consider the iPhones to be backdoored by the NSA, I wonder whether I really want to give them my fingerprint together with the rest of my da
by pilif 13y ago
Now that we have to consider the iPhones to be backdoored by the NSA, I wonder whether I really want to give them my fingerprint together with the rest of my data. I'm also not so sure whether a fingerprint can't still be easily faked (like it was possible on that Mythbusters episode for example).
Personally, I think I'd rather stay with my passcode.
Did you btw know that you can turn off "simple passcode" and then use a purely numeric longer passcode? In that case the iPhone will still show the big easy-to-hit numeric keyboard allowing you to type in the arbitrary length numeric code.
Yes. It's not as safe as a long alphanumeric password, but this gets annoying SO quickly, I'd rather type in my 8 digits.
- cwilson 13y agoApple specifically stated that your fingerprint is stored and encrypted only on the A7 chip, and not iCloud or anywhere else. It's mentioned in the video as well: http://www.apple.com/iphone-5s/videos/#video-touch http://www.apple.com/iphone-5s/videos/#video-touch
- lfuller 13y agoI believe that pilif's issue is with potential undisclosed storage of the fingerprint data on Apple's servers.
- jontas 13y agoI'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, but if in fact the NSA required copies of all fingerprints, I doubt Apple would be allowed to publicize it.
- danabramov 13y agoBut would they still go about implementing it? I mean, it sounds crazy from a business perspective.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- afterburner 13y agoWhat if the NSA told them they had to have access to the data, or else jail and whatnot.
- mcintyre1994 13y agoAm I understanding this correctly? What if the NSA went to Apple and said you have to get us access to everyone's fingerprints or you'll go to jail and other stuff, so Apple put a fingerprint scanner on the iPhone? It seems like a stretch to me.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- gknoy 13y agoMore of: - Apple releases the new finger print reader 5S - NSA: "Heyyy ... we'd like those." - Apple: ".... Crap." (or: "Sure!")
- jlgreco 13y agoMuch more likely: "Do it, or your datafeed of intel from industrial espionage will run dry."
- lttlrck 13y agoNor would they bother explicitly highlighting that it's kept local...
- typon 13y agoBut that's exactly what they want you to think.
- laureny 13y agoMakes me think of all these companies that your passwords are secure until one day, someone hacks their database and decrypts them. When confronted, the company says "But they were very secure, you should have mentioned that by 'secure' you meant "with one way encryption".
- swamp40 13y agoHonestly, to effectively market this technology in today's waters, they have to say that it's kept local. If they send out 8 bytes of your fingerprint data hidden in every picture you take (so your fingerprint can be regenerated by looking at your first 500 pictures) I doubt anyone will ever find it.
- jonmrodriguez 13y agoNot publicizing it would massively backfire as soon as the first teardown happens.
- yapcguy 13y agoWhat they didn't mention is that it's stored in the L2 cache ;-)
- jonhohle 13y agoIn this case, the L2 cache is part of the A7, so that would be fair. I would guess this means it's also only stored in NVRAM local to the SOC and not persisted to the general flash filesystem.
- derefr 13y agoI would guess they just tacked a bog-standard TPM chip into their SoC design. Biometric (fingerprint) sensors and TPM chips go together; see any enterprise-targeted laptop from the last five years.
- mpclark 13y agoQuite. It'll be a little hardware black box that nobody can see into, one that just gives a 'yes' or 'no' answer. Additionally -- if things are like they used to be when I was in the biometrics world in the mid-90s -- the fingerprint template will be small and work like a one way hash; if you have the template you cannot reconstruct the fingerprint from it. It wouldn't really be very useful to the NSA or anyone else.
- pilif 13y agoYes. And how exactly do we check this? Why is it that we can still trust Apple? For all we know, the data gets sent directly to the NSA or, if it doesn't, there might be some secret backdoor that will make the device send the data at a later point. The last round of leaks was specifically talking about backdoors with all bigger US companies in order to circumvent encryption. That's what I means by "we have to consider the iPhones backdoored". Once you can't trust the device any more, all bets are off and thus we can't be sure that what Apple says they do with that fingerprint is what they actually are doing. (edit: regarding jailbreaking, I seriously doubt that a sufficiently well-hidden backdoor would be found by a jailbreaker. Or have we found the backdoors in OSX or Windows yet? Since the latest leak, we know they are there)
- drinchev 13y agoI'm pretty sure, when they jailbreak it the truth will come out. And I doubt Apple would take the risk for lying about that.
- IgorPartola 13y agoWho has the decryption key?
- Someone 13y agoIn the ideal world, there is no decryption key. They should use a one-way hash of the encoded fingerprint. They might want to do approximate matching, though. That could make it hard or impossible to do without the decryption key.
- luscious 13y agoWhich is also when we can start hacking it for fun and profit.
- mrb 13y agoWell, as a computer/network security professional, historically there are plenty examples of companies who have lied about the security of their systems (eg. "without your password, our flash drives cannot be decrypted" when in fact the key is not related to the password and stored in plaintext in a sector on the drive).
- Cakez0r 13y agoWell as long as they specifically stated it! We can totally rely on their word.
- cwilson 13y agoAs others have mentioned, I'm sure we'll learn much more when the jailbreaking begins. Just reporting the facts we have.
- mason240 13y ago>Apple specifically stated that your fingerprint is stored and encrypted only on the A7 chip, and Apple couldn't legally tell us anything different.
- laureny 13y agoDon't trust the NSA, trust Apple instead because they have no interest in your private information. Makes perfect sense.
- muyuu 13y agoOh OK. If Apple says so then that settles it.
- wmoxam 13y agoSo what? How many webapps have encypted and stored their users password "only on their own servers", to later have them leaked via combination of exploit in 3rd party software that allowed the download of their DB and a little brute force? Only difference on an iPhone is that there are literally 100s of thousand of apps that can possibly be exploited
- seiji 13y agoDid you btw know that you can turn off "simple passcode" and then use a purely numeric longer passcode? In that case the iphone will still show the big easy-to-hit numeric keyboard allowing you to type in the arbitrary length numeric code. Brilliant! I did not know that. I haven't been using Long Passcode Mode because I didn't want to type on the tiny keyboard to unlock 100 times a day.
- gfodor 13y agoSerious question -- what is the big deal if someone gets your fingerprints? I can't think of the last time my fingerprint was used as some infallible method of identification, if ever. If the spooks want it, they already have it. I'd rather someone get their hands on my fingerprint than my passport, driver's license, and credit cards, and it seems much more difficult to steal than those things. I think the fingerprint scanner is positioned not to be some indestructible lock like RSA or a safe-deposit box, but a reasonably decent deterrent like door locks and The Club. It seems to be at the same level of security as your iPhone passcode -- a well-equipped intruder can certainly get into your stuff, but your mom or a pickpocket won't be able to.
- pilif 13y agoThe problem is that I can't change my fingerprint. If it gets out by some third-party abusing the secret backdoor (or just abusing whatever other place you have your fingerprint stored), then they can potentially forge your fingerprint when committing a crime or when otherwise attempting to access resources you have access to. When a third-party loses your password, you change it and life goes on (you are not reusing passwords, are you?). When a third-party loses your fingerprint, what do you do? Cut off your fingers? Grow a new hand? Yes. The fingerprint information is supposed to be irreversibly hashed. But so are passwords. And yet we still see them being stored unencrypted. No. I'm very careful with my fingerprints. Also, the data on my phone must be some of the most valuable data I have. When I lose my phone and you gain access, you immediately own all my online identities. My phone has SSH keys, it has the password to my Email account stored in its keychain (very handy for all these "I have forgotten my password" features on all the sites), it has my 2 factor authentication tokens - I can't even begin to imagine how bad it would be if somebody had access to my phone. Yours is probably as valuable to you.
- therobot24 13y agoyou can rub off your fingerprints, it does occur, however is not very practical (though better than cutting off your hand)
- 13y ago
- cocoflunchy 13y agoIf you've ever left the country, they already have your fingerprints anyway...
- nknighthb 13y agoI acquired a passport in 2010, and left the country that year, and the year after, and was never asked for my fingerprints. You may be thinking of a program that applies only to non-citizens.
- cocoflunchy 13y agoYes, you're right. Don't they ask for your fingerprints when you make a passport though? They do in France.
- ewang1 13y agoIf you're part of the Global Entry program, they have all 10 prints as well.
- nknighthb 13y agoNot in the US, no. I ended up sending them my life story to convince them I was who I said I was, but they did not ask for fingerprints. I've never had to be fingerprinted for any reason. There is a palm geometry scan on file for me with a datacenter, but that works on a different principle.
- mortenjorck 13y agoI think more countries' immigration controls require it for guest entry than departments of state require it for gaining a passport.
- kyleowen212 13y agoI had to give my fingerprints when I got my drivers' license. I trust Apple's encryption way more than I trust the DMV's hack protection.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- jbigelow76 13y agoI don't know, the bureaucratic apathy coupled with decades old technology of your local DMV might make a decently effective example of security through obfuscation.
- mkhpalm 13y agoI don't think people are all that concerned about the dirty deeds of some nefarious black hat in this case. I think people are concerned about secret courts, a government that interprets its own laws, and a substantial portion of the public that hasn't graduated from issues commonly found in high school.
- ianstallings 13y agoI stopped having to worry about them keeping my fingerprints private when I turned 14. Turns out you need a license to drive a car down the road! How was I supposed to know?
- pyrocat 13y agoYou don't need to fingerprint to get a license, at least not in my state.
- randomdata 13y agoBut do you need to fingerprint when you are 14 and caught without a license in your state?
- ianstallings 13y agoExactly!
- dev_jim 13y agoUrgh. When do we get to the point where I can read HN without a snarky NSA comment being voted to the top?
- mcphilip 13y agoUrgh. When do we get to the point where I can read HN without comments complaining about very relevant NSA discussions being voted to the top? It's foolish not to speculate on reasons why giving your thumbprint to a vendor may not be in your best interest. I'd much rather see the OP comment on the top of this discussion rather than some inane debate about whether the new phone is an incremental upgrade or an exciting evolution.
- cheald 13y agoProbably when the NSA stops illegally spying on the citizens it is supposed to serve.
- moogleii 13y agoIf we're assuming the worst, then nothing you use is safe. Google? No... Downgrade to a regular non-smart phone? I guess that's safer. They'll still have your phone records, though.
- scrrr 13y agoYeah, but FWIW, as a foreigner traveling to the US, I already had to give my fingerprints to Homeland Security. So they are on file I suppose.
- lttlrck 13y agoIts not like it stores all the prints on all your hands... Does the signature output of the sensor even resemble something that would be useful to a third-party? It seems doubtful that it dumps out a little JPEG... and it might not even be possible to reconstruct.
- kyro 13y agoYes, absolutely. While the idea of fingerprint-purchasing might have interesting applications, what you mention should also be a serious concern. The saddest part to me is that people are attempting to put an end to this worry by saying "well, Apple said they don't give apps access to it." And no other tech company has ever told us about any of their involvement and cooperation with the NSA in the collection of private user data. People shouldn't wooed by this new feature and be blinded to its security implications. Start taking this stuff seriously, instead of what these companies are telling you.
- cma 13y agoIn the future you aren't going to be able to keep your fingerprints to yourself anyway: http://www.dvice.com/archives/2012/06/keeping_you_saf.php http://www.dvice.com/archives/2012/06/keeping_you_saf.php
- AsymetricCom 13y agoInstalling such machines in public or private property would require all sorts of legislation that doesn't yet exist otherwise the machine would be illegal in both of those environments because of existing legislation.
- sliverstorm 13y agoIf the NSA has compromised everything, what's the point of all this paranoia? If you can't trust your software, your compiler, your operating system, your microprocessor, your network adapter, your router, or your ISP- you're hosed. It's over. You lost. So can we at least stop banging the war-drums? There's either absolutely nothing you can do about it, or it's not as bad as you think and you are being wildly over fearful.
- hershel 13y agoI don't think they compromised everything. From reading the last exposures it seems that they can wiretap Blackberry emails on a targeted basis, not on a dragnet basic(please tell if i'm wrong here). But since we don't know if they compromised apple(an american company), and the benefits of fingerprint ID is not that big, maybe we need to think about not using it?
- mikeash 13y agoI'm not quite sure I get this level of paranoia. We all leave thousands of fingerprints in public areas every day.
- jonknee 13y agoNot on high resolution cameras designed to record them attached to your identity.
- mikeash 13y agoHow hard would it be to run a mobile scanner over public surfaces and correlate the data with security camera footage? In any case, we're talking about devices that can already spy on you to an enormous extent (conversations, photos, e-mail, passwords, plenty more). Fingerprints seem way down the list of important things they could be stealing.
- danenania 13y ago"How hard would it be to run a mobile scanner over public surfaces and correlate the data with security camera footage?" For the NSA? A hell of a lot harder than backdooring iPhones.
- msluyter 13y agoActually, my gym (24 Hr Fitness) uses fingerprint scanners to sign people in. I hadn't really given it much thought before, but indeed, it would be possible for their system to be compromised and for my fingerprint data to be released into the wild...
- mikeash 13y agoYes, hackers could compromise your gym's systems, steal your fingerprint data, and then use it to... mooch off your gym membership?
- dragonwriter 13y ago
- prehkugler 13y agoI think it's prudent to note that Apple made specific guarantees of fingerprint privacy; however such explicit guarantees haven't been made for passcode privacy.
- seangarita 13y agoThe government already has your fingerprints... DMV, TSA...
- nycruz 13y agoDoesn't the DMV requires thumbprint?
- cheald 13y agoThat varies by state. It doesn't in mine, for example.
- lukeman 13y agoGoing at your premise and skipping over the fingerprint conversation: we have no evidence that the iPhone is backdoored. The NSA documents referred to scripts that were used on compromised computers that the phones were synced to, which indicates to me that they target unencrypted backup files.
- pudquick 13y agoI am not concerned about my fingerprint data being part of some larger database. However, if you're using a fingerprint to unlock, it's much harder to say "I've forgotten my password" - or stop them from using your finger while you're unconscious. Deniability becomes much lower.
- jasomill 13y agoMore realistically, fingerprints aren't considered "testimony" for the purposes of fifth amendment protection against self-incriminating testimony.
- jimwalsh 13y agoThe US government has fingerprints of every person born in the US already.
- downandout 13y agoSo use a passcode - the fingerprint feature is optional. That said, I doubt they are doing anything nefarious with it - if it eventually leaked that fingerprints were being sent to the NSA, the cost to Apple would be incalculable. I would bet, or at least hope, that Apple has designed the hardware involved to be subpoena proof - meaning that the design would make it impossible to remotely collect fingerprints even if a court ordered them to initiate efforts to do so.
- plg 13y agoit HAS already leaked that emails, browsing, who knows what else, is being sucked up by NSA ... so apparently it doesn't matter. Apple is still selling plenty of iPhones, people are still using Gmail, etc etc. Apparently Americans don't much care.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- harrytuttle 13y agoOr just not buy the fucking thing to start with...
- gnaffle 13y agoWhat? Is iPhone leaking emails and browsing? Can you provide me more information on that? If you're talking about ISP monitoring, that's not specific to the iPhone, and not relevant to this discussion.
- sillysaurus2 13y agoApple was added to the PRISM program in 2010 iirc, and PRISM is a program designed for one purpose: surreptitious data collection.
- gnaffle 13y ago
- plg 13y agoand when you press the unlock button (containing the fingerprint reader that you think is inactive, but is actually still reading your prints) .... presto blammo hello mr nsa
- superuser2 13y agoJust a thought... the third-party doctrine is what enables perfectly legal surveillance of most communications. However, something residing on your device and never entering a third party's possession would seem to be directly covered by "your papers" in the 4th amendment. The bar for lifting fingerprints out of your CPU is much higher than the bar for lifting emails out of Yahoo.
- rahoulb 13y agoI live in England and I have been arrested. This means that GCHQ (and by implication probably the NSA), already have my fingerprints.
- rb2k_ 13y agoSeeing as I get my fingerprints taken at the airport every time I enter the US, I personally don't care :)
- gnaffle 13y agoYou don't _have_ to. You can root your iPhone and log all packets sent from the phone, and block out any stuff going to Apple (turn off iMessage, iCloud and Siri). For downloading apps etc, you can do that through iTunes and sync your iPhone using a cable.
- harrisonjackson 13y agoYou might be able to do this through a self hosted VPN too. Just setup your own Great Firewall that won't talk to apple. That way you don't have to root your phone. Not sure how much control you have over which traffic goes over a VPN connection though. And this might block your iMessages haha.
- qwertzlcoatl 13y ago> I'm also not so sure whether a fingerprint can't still be easily faked How to fake fingerprints from ChaosComputerClub: http://dasalte.ccc.de/biometrie/fingerabdruck_kopieren?language=en http://dasalte.ccc.de/biometrie/fingerabdruck_kopieren?langu...
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- brown9-2 13y agoAre you similarly worried about the GPS in your iPhone that you presumably keep in your pocket wherever you go, which is tied to your credit card and billing account with the telephone company?
- mixmastamyk 13y agoYes, why I keep it in airplane mode most of the time.
- baddox 13y agoWhy would you believe that the radios are actually off when in airplane mode?
- jasomill 13y agoGenerally speaking, because some regulatory agency or other would refuse or revoke certification of a device that has a "disable radio" feature that doesn't work. I wouldn't assume that a device is incapable of accumulating GPS tracking information in "airplane mode" and forwarding it when the radio is turned back on, however, or that intelligence and law enforcement agencies would never quietly disable "airplane mode" in the course of specific investigations.
- krallja 13y agoIt's fun to see that you trust your government to regulate the "disable radio" feature! </g>
- brown9-2 13y agoThe same government that backdoored the phone?
- oakwhiz 13y agoAirplane mode more or less disables the phone's transmitters, but not necessarily the receivers. Even if the baseband processor is told to shut down the radio, it can still be listening for a remote backdoor message, and subsequently enable the transmitter for some nefarious purpose - similar to a remote shell.
- gpmcadam 13y agoApple claims that the fingerprint data is never transmitted to any servers and is kept only on the phone for the purposes of authentication.
- Geee 13y agoNot only that, but it can't be accessed by software either. Only the Touch ID sensor has hardware access to the actual fingerprint data, which is stored on separate memory on the A7 chip. That was in the keynote presentation.
- wepple 13y agoThe thing that mystifies me most about the whole NSA scare is: Did you honestly not suspect they were doing this all along? Why the concern just because some details have been leaked?
- nitrogen 13y agoOf course most HN users suspected it, but nobody else would listen. Now that there's proof, those who keep beating the drum are doing so because the public might still be paying attention and it might actually do some good. Plus, who can resist a good "I told you so!" ;-)
- rabino 13y agoGovernment has my fingerprint already. You need to give it to them every time you go through customs.