29 ms·

If you want to live in a city, it's not the cost of the house that kills you: it's the dirt. In Seattle, where I live, my property tax statement tells me that

by finnh 13y ago

If you want to live in a city, it's not the cost of the house that kills you: it's the dirt. In Seattle, where I live, my property tax statement tells me that my (large, nice) house is worth roughly half as much as the land it sits on. Given that these domes don't float, you still need a place to put 'em. If your goal is to opt out of the cost of housing - an evil which this blog post expounds upon at length - your first order of business isn't so much "what to live in" but "where is it going to be".

brucehauman 13y ago
I agree with your statement whole heartedly. There are trade-offs to everything. I hope that you don't think I am claiming to have solved the housing issue. I am simply offering an "alternative" alternative structure. But there is a place for them and it works for me. Please see the tiny housing / simplification movement for discussion about the trade offs of relocating and living simply. It's not for everyone.
- finnh 13y ago
  I used to live in a pretty small house. I loved it. Then I had two kids =) EDIT: added smileyface.
  - samstave 13y ago
    Yeah, as a father to three... all I could think of when reading the article was "The bliss of ignorance a 20-something, single kid-less person has... if only I could live in a Dome with no restroom"!
    - gbog 13y ago
      Well, ahem, you may be aware that in some places in the world some families have plenty of kids and no restrooms in their houses. Actually there is quite a lot of them. Restrooms is not the problem here, the problem is this focus on frameless structure. Why not just doing a tent, like in so many traditional cultures? It must be easier to build and may even be more pleasing to the eyes.
      - samstave 13y ago
        SHHH - you're insulting my armchair activist! :-) While I am well aware that ther are billions that live in lesser conditions than the hipster-dome under discussion, one of the points of the article was that there is "inefficiency" in the home rental/ownership paradigm; while this may be true - I do not see how this is solved by sacraficing something as crucial as a bathroom (or kitchen [I lived in my house during a kitchen remodel, and I cooked using my backpacking gear for 2 months, and that FARKING SUCKED]) So - Yeah - this would be a great fort, or cool guest room, I'd not want to actually live there. Ever have to walk from your "room" to the bathroom when there is a monsoon-like storm outside which you must traverse (at 4am). No thanks
      - BrandonMarc 13y ago
        Exactly. My church helps build inexpensive (~$10,000) homes in central America, and this looks like an interesting option.
- dsizzle 13y ago
  So can you tell us what you did for the land/property part? Your Twitter profile says Asheville. How far is this from the city? Were there zoning issues?
outworlder 13y ago
True, to an extent. But considering that some people still live in unkempt shacks, there is some room for improvement. Mass producing the dome parts seem like a nice proposition. Might not even be for housing at first but as an addon for a existing house. Say you wanted to clear your garage and store your stuff somewhere else in the property. Maybe for government-sponsored housing programs. Or, I don't know, Africa? There are places where shelter is more important than the land.
- bargl 13y ago
  Africa would be an awesome idea, but you'd have to do a lot of work with the locals to get them to see this as a viable shelter. I worked on a project that tried to bring new types of homes to Haiti. This was a HUGE problem because if the locals don't like it (no matter how cool) your idea won't take off. The fact is that most Haitians thought that wood and corrugated metal were what a "house" was (assuming you couldn't afford a concrete home). This isn't only African's. You could look at forward swept wings in a similar manner (I'm oversimplifying some of the technical difficulties there though).
  - 3838 13y ago
    i remember someone who did a lot of aid work in africa said something similar - various ngo's would come to a village and build stuff and the locals weren't interested - have heard similar in the amazon. for instance someone had built communal latrines which were unused. his starting point was asking the villagers what they wanted to do they said "the chiefs house is a mess" - so they worked on that first, then built individual latrines for each house and made other improvements - they were able to do this by finding out what the locals wanted and working on that, if he'd just gone and built a bunch of stuff that he wanted to he would have been much less successful.
  - paulyg 13y ago
    I'm interested in what types of homes were being tried in Haiti. Can you share a link or any info?
- qq66 13y ago
sp332 13y ago
Knowing that you don't need a big house gives you a lot more flexibility in choosing where to put it.
- icambron 13y ago
  In some ways. The dome is great, but one thing it isn't is stackable.
  - netcan 13y ago
    Maybe it is. It's light. Maybe you could have giant shelves with domes on them.
    - icambron 13y ago
      But then you need structural supports to hold up the shelves, which is what the dome is designed to avoid. The low wall weight would help, I suppose, but you still need to hold up everything inside the units. Once you're pouring concrete onto rebar, it seems like you might as well just have an apartment block.
      - dsuth 13y ago
        You could support a stack with scaffolding.
- SomeCallMeTim 13y ago
  Actually, not necessarily. A lot of zoning regulations in cities require a minimum square footage of a house. And a lot of zoning rules also prohibit nonstandard construction. It's terribly frustrating when you're looking at alternative building methods. In some states you're pretty mostly stuck building in either really rural towns or in unincorporated locations. My own favorite alternative building technique is a "monolithic dome." [1] You get a form (an inflatable balloon in the shape you want the house, effectively) and literally spray a concrete and foam mixture on the inside; you can make a small house like OP or a huge building. Insulation is amazing, and it's weather-proof. They're rated safe against tornadoes, for instance. As a bonus, it's also fireproof, so you can put one up in the mountains and not worry about forest fires destroying it. The frameless dome is a neat trick and an elegant design, but there are a dozen other techniques I'd rather use to build a "simple" home. It's more art project than practical building method. [1] http://www.monolithic.com/ http://www.monolithic.com/
ZitchDog 13y ago
Exactly. This structure basically assumes you're living in the country somewhere. If you're willing to move out to the country, on a programmer's salary you could quickly save enough to pay cash for a smallish, newly constructed home with many modern comforts, such as "rooms".
- SomeCallMeTim 13y ago
  I moved to Colorado from the SF Bay Area. I'm near Boulder and Denver, and can walk to a dozen restaurants, a grocery store, a bar, multiple cafes, and a big library with free Internet access (oddly enough, almost ALL of the above have free Internet access, now that I think of it -- even the grocery store). And if you like public transit, I'm really close to multiple bus lines, but the city I live in is also very bike friendly. And I don't have a mortgage on my 2500 sq. ft. house. No living "in the country" necessary. ;) Similar house prices can be had in Denver proper as well, though I'm in more of a suburb. Programmers can make a lot of money. If you don't waste it all, it's not hard to save up a lot. I only do paid work about half the time now; the other half I work on my own projects.
  - franklovecchio 13y ago
    But you're renting, right? Isn't part of the point not to be wasting capital on rent? (I'm a CO man myself)
    - agilebyte 13y ago
      Why is rent wasting money? I am not entirely sold on that idea. If you have a lot of cash that you do not need to access in a foreseeable future then maybe.
      - franklovecchio 13y ago
        It's a waste in capital _relative_ to what this chap's doing. Now, in terms of _experiences_ or _ease_, it's not necessarily a waste. Plus, rent usually comes with deposits. I've had the experience of rarely getting back deposits. So, there's some overhead right there.
monkeynotes 13y ago
This is exactly my dilemma. I've come up with numerous novel ways to live cheaply but all of them require a plot of land which always ruins the budget. Further compounding the problem is few banks will loan money for unbuilt land. Strangely the land is worth more than houses but in the eyes of a bank the house is what you secure the loan against.
- franklovecchio 13y ago
  Not true! I purchased 5 acres in Southwestern CO (with mountain views!) for 2 grand in cash. I built a small cabin, and program out of it. But, it lacks luxuries for my many "projects", so now I'm building a house. http://frank.lovecch.io/projects/walden-ranch.html http://frank.lovecch.io/projects/walden-ranch.html
  - molsongolden 13y ago
    The SLV! I am strongly considering buying a plot there but the lack of water is the trade off. Can you provide a ballpark for your construction costs? Are you drilling a well, burying a tank and hauling water, or something else? What's the nearest town? Have you had trouble with burglars/vandals while leaving your cabin unattended for long periods of time?
    - franklovecchio 13y ago
      The finite numbers I have are thus: Land: I purchased 5 acres for $2,000 of Craigslist. It's worth about 5-6 getting it from a real-estate company. Slab: 4" deep, 8" deep around a 1' perimeter..1100 sq ft total - 18 yards concrete, $2200 - Bobcat rental (days w/ gas), $450 - Rented tools (concrete blankets for cold, et), $150 - Rebar/tongue-groove insulation: $1000 Solar: Currently, I run off a generator, which was about $500. On the cheap end they seem to last a few years. Solar is cheap, though, and a decent setup from Arizona Wind Solar would cost about $2500 (4-5 panels, controllers, converters, wire, and extra batteries). You'd have to be careful with what appliances you used, though. Heat: I purchased a wood stove for $200 for the small cabin. Eventually, a nice Morso one will run me about $1500. Framing: - 16, 16' 13/12 gable trusses (building this by myself, so it's a modern pole barn), $1500 Windows: - 15 3'x 5' picture windows (it's fucking dusty here), $2500 Well: $8,000 50' out, piped 4' down to the house. That's as far as I've gotten on the new build costs and well forecast. The costs are in the _slab_ (which will be stained for the floor) and the _well_. Initially, I did not know about the "theft" problem. In 4 years owning this property (and having an unfinished cabin w/ easy entry for about 2 of those), nothing has been stolen. I'm not sure there is one, but I have heard stories. That said, I'm 3 miles off the highway, and you can't see me from the road. I'm half-way in b/t San Luis and Fort Garland, which are each about 15 minutes either way. Currently, I bring in water. It sucks!
netcan 13y ago
Being inexpensive is just part of what makes this cool, part of the simplicity. Another part is ease of building. It makes me want to participate. I really do feel like going out right now and tinkering. This structure and the post about it is art. Thank you for sharing.
tootie 13y ago
We also have a thing called apartment buildings. Hundreds of homes stacked vertically and centrally heated is still the efficiency champion.
samstave 13y ago
>Given that these domes don't float This has been an idea I have been pushing around fro a while. Building a living platform floating in the SFBay. Admittedly, this has been nothing more than a day-dream - so I am unfamiliar with what imperial entanglements attach themselves to the reality of this.... But assuming that it can be done, what would be the barrier to entry for the following scenario: * Standardized deployment platforms. * Assume a Hex shape * Standardized MEP+IT infra in the base of each platform. * Set solar capacity for each platform * A range of models of living spaces * Communal-esque structure for shared work/meeting type spaces * [a range of other options, I could go on and on] --- I do not know the legal preclusions to an idea such as this... and clearly there are costing issues. But if you can have an open design for the platforms, figure out how to get them economically built - and provide the standards/spec requirements for the on-platform structures.. it may be viable, and while this has long been just a thought-exercise for me; I'll just ask the obvious: Anyone else interested in this type of thing?
- stcredzero 13y ago
  > I'll just ask the obvious: Anyone else interested in this type of thing? http://www.seasteading.org/ http://www.seasteading.org/
  - sirsar 13y ago
    Don't forget Blueseed, the floating startup community http://blueseed.co/ http://blueseed.co/
- Someone 13y ago
  For inspiration: http://www.rohmer.nl/?view=detail&pageAlias=projecten&subAlias=jaar&jaarId=18&projId=24&settaal=EN http://www.rohmer.nl/?view=detail&pageAlias=projecten&subAli...
ChrisNorstrom 13y ago
If you live way out in the middle of nowhere the property taxes are TINY. $25/year for 2 acres. No building codes, tons of freedom. My only issue with this awesome dome is that because of its shapes it wastes a lot of material. I'd like to see some kind of cube or cylinder shaped home built from square pieces that maximizes the material's use.
duncan_bayne 13y ago
Depends where you live - if you're capable of working remotely, land can be incredibly cheap. AUD$49,000 gets you this: http://www.realestate.com.au/200677503 http://www.realestate.com.au/200677503 "2.5 acres [10,117 m2 or 108,900 ft2] with a large flat area at the front of the block and some scattered timber at the back. Electricity at the front of the block and rural/town water available."
- lifeformed 13y ago
  Just 2.5 acres? Here's 160 acres for $39,000: http://www.marktwite.com/Drexel-montana-hunting-land-for-sale.htm http://www.marktwite.com/Drexel-montana-hunting-land-for-sal... Of course, that puts you in the middle of nowhere, but it's like $240 an acre.
  - duncan_bayne 13y ago
    Yeah, I was assuming that you'd want power and water to the property. That Montana property is beautiful though. Sometimes I'm jealous of you folks in the US; not only do you get rain, you're allowed modern firearms as well.
ballard 13y ago
The only way to scale it seems is for cities to go extremely vertical. Then if there were attractive choices for DIY housing that meets building code The alternatives include taking on a longer commute or being farther from the action.

by finnh 13y ago

brucehauman 13y ago

I agree with your statement whole heartedly. There are trade-offs to everything. I hope that you don't think I am claiming to have solved the housing issue. I am simply offering an "alternative" alternative structure. But there is a place for them and it works for me. Please see the tiny housing / simplification movement for discussion about the trade offs of relocating and living simply. It's not for everyone.

finnh 13y ago
I used to live in a pretty small house. I loved it. Then I had two kids =) EDIT: added smileyface.
- samstave 13y ago
  Yeah, as a father to three... all I could think of when reading the article was "The bliss of ignorance a 20-something, single kid-less person has... if only I could live in a Dome with no restroom"!
  - gbog 13y ago
    Well, ahem, you may be aware that in some places in the world some families have plenty of kids and no restrooms in their houses. Actually there is quite a lot of them. Restrooms is not the problem here, the problem is this focus on frameless structure. Why not just doing a tent, like in so many traditional cultures? It must be easier to build and may even be more pleasing to the eyes.
    - samstave 13y ago
      SHHH - you're insulting my armchair activist! :-) While I am well aware that ther are billions that live in lesser conditions than the hipster-dome under discussion, one of the points of the article was that there is "inefficiency" in the home rental/ownership paradigm; while this may be true - I do not see how this is solved by sacraficing something as crucial as a bathroom (or kitchen [I lived in my house during a kitchen remodel, and I cooked using my backpacking gear for 2 months, and that FARKING SUCKED]) So - Yeah - this would be a great fort, or cool guest room, I'd not want to actually live there. Ever have to walk from your "room" to the bathroom when there is a monsoon-like storm outside which you must traverse (at 4am). No thanks
    - BrandonMarc 13y ago
      Exactly. My church helps build inexpensive (~$10,000) homes in central America, and this looks like an interesting option.
dsizzle 13y ago
So can you tell us what you did for the land/property part? Your Twitter profile says Asheville. How far is this from the city? Were there zoning issues?

outworlder 13y ago

True, to an extent. But considering that some people still live in unkempt shacks, there is some room for improvement. Mass producing the dome parts seem like a nice proposition. Might not even be for housing at first but as an addon for a existing house. Say you wanted to clear your garage and store your stuff somewhere else in the property. Maybe for government-sponsored housing programs. Or, I don't know, Africa? There are places where shelter is more important than the land.

bargl 13y ago
Africa would be an awesome idea, but you'd have to do a lot of work with the locals to get them to see this as a viable shelter. I worked on a project that tried to bring new types of homes to Haiti. This was a HUGE problem because if the locals don't like it (no matter how cool) your idea won't take off. The fact is that most Haitians thought that wood and corrugated metal were what a "house" was (assuming you couldn't afford a concrete home). This isn't only African's. You could look at forward swept wings in a similar manner (I'm oversimplifying some of the technical difficulties there though).
- 3838 13y ago
  i remember someone who did a lot of aid work in africa said something similar - various ngo's would come to a village and build stuff and the locals weren't interested - have heard similar in the amazon. for instance someone had built communal latrines which were unused. his starting point was asking the villagers what they wanted to do they said "the chiefs house is a mess" - so they worked on that first, then built individual latrines for each house and made other improvements - they were able to do this by finding out what the locals wanted and working on that, if he'd just gone and built a bunch of stuff that he wanted to he would have been much less successful.
- paulyg 13y ago
  I'm interested in what types of homes were being tried in Haiti. Can you share a link or any info?
qq66 13y ago

sp332 13y ago

Knowing that you don't need a big house gives you a lot more flexibility in choosing where to put it.

icambron 13y ago
In some ways. The dome is great, but one thing it isn't is stackable.
- netcan 13y ago
  Maybe it is. It's light. Maybe you could have giant shelves with domes on them.
  - icambron 13y ago
    But then you need structural supports to hold up the shelves, which is what the dome is designed to avoid. The low wall weight would help, I suppose, but you still need to hold up everything inside the units. Once you're pouring concrete onto rebar, it seems like you might as well just have an apartment block.
    - dsuth 13y ago
      You could support a stack with scaffolding.
SomeCallMeTim 13y ago
Actually, not necessarily. A lot of zoning regulations in cities require a minimum square footage of a house. And a lot of zoning rules also prohibit nonstandard construction. It's terribly frustrating when you're looking at alternative building methods. In some states you're pretty mostly stuck building in either really rural towns or in unincorporated locations. My own favorite alternative building technique is a "monolithic dome." [1] You get a form (an inflatable balloon in the shape you want the house, effectively) and literally spray a concrete and foam mixture on the inside; you can make a small house like OP or a huge building. Insulation is amazing, and it's weather-proof. They're rated safe against tornadoes, for instance. As a bonus, it's also fireproof, so you can put one up in the mountains and not worry about forest fires destroying it. The frameless dome is a neat trick and an elegant design, but there are a dozen other techniques I'd rather use to build a "simple" home. It's more art project than practical building method. [1] http://www.monolithic.com/ http://www.monolithic.com/

ZitchDog 13y ago

Exactly. This structure basically assumes you're living in the country somewhere. If you're willing to move out to the country, on a programmer's salary you could quickly save enough to pay cash for a smallish, newly constructed home with many modern comforts, such as "rooms".

SomeCallMeTim 13y ago
I moved to Colorado from the SF Bay Area. I'm near Boulder and Denver, and can walk to a dozen restaurants, a grocery store, a bar, multiple cafes, and a big library with free Internet access (oddly enough, almost ALL of the above have free Internet access, now that I think of it -- even the grocery store). And if you like public transit, I'm really close to multiple bus lines, but the city I live in is also very bike friendly. And I don't have a mortgage on my 2500 sq. ft. house. No living "in the country" necessary. ;) Similar house prices can be had in Denver proper as well, though I'm in more of a suburb. Programmers can make a lot of money. If you don't waste it all, it's not hard to save up a lot. I only do paid work about half the time now; the other half I work on my own projects.
- franklovecchio 13y ago
  But you're renting, right? Isn't part of the point not to be wasting capital on rent? (I'm a CO man myself)
  - agilebyte 13y ago
    Why is rent wasting money? I am not entirely sold on that idea. If you have a lot of cash that you do not need to access in a foreseeable future then maybe.
    - franklovecchio 13y ago
      It's a waste in capital _relative_ to what this chap's doing. Now, in terms of _experiences_ or _ease_, it's not necessarily a waste. Plus, rent usually comes with deposits. I've had the experience of rarely getting back deposits. So, there's some overhead right there.

monkeynotes 13y ago

This is exactly my dilemma. I've come up with numerous novel ways to live cheaply but all of them require a plot of land which always ruins the budget. Further compounding the problem is few banks will loan money for unbuilt land. Strangely the land is worth more than houses but in the eyes of a bank the house is what you secure the loan against.

franklovecchio 13y ago
Not true! I purchased 5 acres in Southwestern CO (with mountain views!) for 2 grand in cash. I built a small cabin, and program out of it. But, it lacks luxuries for my many "projects", so now I'm building a house. http://frank.lovecch.io/projects/walden-ranch.html http://frank.lovecch.io/projects/walden-ranch.html
- molsongolden 13y ago
  The SLV! I am strongly considering buying a plot there but the lack of water is the trade off. Can you provide a ballpark for your construction costs? Are you drilling a well, burying a tank and hauling water, or something else? What's the nearest town? Have you had trouble with burglars/vandals while leaving your cabin unattended for long periods of time?
  - franklovecchio 13y ago
    The finite numbers I have are thus: Land: I purchased 5 acres for $2,000 of Craigslist. It's worth about 5-6 getting it from a real-estate company. Slab: 4" deep, 8" deep around a 1' perimeter..1100 sq ft total - 18 yards concrete, $2200 - Bobcat rental (days w/ gas), $450 - Rented tools (concrete blankets for cold, et), $150 - Rebar/tongue-groove insulation: $1000 Solar: Currently, I run off a generator, which was about $500. On the cheap end they seem to last a few years. Solar is cheap, though, and a decent setup from Arizona Wind Solar would cost about $2500 (4-5 panels, controllers, converters, wire, and extra batteries). You'd have to be careful with what appliances you used, though. Heat: I purchased a wood stove for $200 for the small cabin. Eventually, a nice Morso one will run me about $1500. Framing: - 16, 16' 13/12 gable trusses (building this by myself, so it's a modern pole barn), $1500 Windows: - 15 3'x 5' picture windows (it's fucking dusty here), $2500 Well: $8,000 50' out, piped 4' down to the house. That's as far as I've gotten on the new build costs and well forecast. The costs are in the _slab_ (which will be stained for the floor) and the _well_. Initially, I did not know about the "theft" problem. In 4 years owning this property (and having an unfinished cabin w/ easy entry for about 2 of those), nothing has been stolen. I'm not sure there is one, but I have heard stories. That said, I'm 3 miles off the highway, and you can't see me from the road. I'm half-way in b/t San Luis and Fort Garland, which are each about 15 minutes either way. Currently, I bring in water. It sucks!

netcan 13y ago

Being inexpensive is just part of what makes this cool, part of the simplicity. Another part is ease of building. It makes me want to participate. I really do feel like going out right now and tinkering. This structure and the post about it is art. Thank you for sharing.

tootie 13y ago

We also have a thing called apartment buildings. Hundreds of homes stacked vertically and centrally heated is still the efficiency champion.

samstave 13y ago

>Given that these domes don't float This has been an idea I have been pushing around fro a while. Building a living platform floating in the SFBay. Admittedly, this has been nothing more than a day-dream - so I am unfamiliar with what imperial entanglements attach themselves to the reality of this.... But assuming that it can be done, what would be the barrier to entry for the following scenario: * Standardized deployment platforms. * Assume a Hex shape * Standardized MEP+IT infra in the base of each platform. * Set solar capacity for each platform * A range of models of living spaces * Communal-esque structure for shared work/meeting type spaces * [a range of other options, I could go on and on] --- I do not know the legal preclusions to an idea such as this... and clearly there are costing issues. But if you can have an open design for the platforms, figure out how to get them economically built - and provide the standards/spec requirements for the on-platform structures.. it may be viable, and while this has long been just a thought-exercise for me; I'll just ask the obvious: Anyone else interested in this type of thing?

stcredzero 13y ago
> I'll just ask the obvious: Anyone else interested in this type of thing? http://www.seasteading.org/ http://www.seasteading.org/
- sirsar 13y ago
  Don't forget Blueseed, the floating startup community http://blueseed.co/ http://blueseed.co/
Someone 13y ago
For inspiration: http://www.rohmer.nl/?view=detail&pageAlias=projecten&subAlias=jaar&jaarId=18&projId=24&settaal=EN http://www.rohmer.nl/?view=detail&pageAlias=projecten&subAli...

ChrisNorstrom 13y ago

If you live way out in the middle of nowhere the property taxes are TINY. $25/year for 2 acres. No building codes, tons of freedom. My only issue with this awesome dome is that because of its shapes it wastes a lot of material. I'd like to see some kind of cube or cylinder shaped home built from square pieces that maximizes the material's use.

duncan_bayne 13y ago

Depends where you live - if you're capable of working remotely, land can be incredibly cheap. AUD$49,000 gets you this: http://www.realestate.com.au/200677503 http://www.realestate.com.au/200677503 "2.5 acres [10,117 m2 or 108,900 ft2] with a large flat area at the front of the block and some scattered timber at the back. Electricity at the front of the block and rural/town water available."

lifeformed 13y ago
Just 2.5 acres? Here's 160 acres for $39,000: http://www.marktwite.com/Drexel-montana-hunting-land-for-sale.htm http://www.marktwite.com/Drexel-montana-hunting-land-for-sal... Of course, that puts you in the middle of nowhere, but it's like $240 an acre.
- duncan_bayne 13y ago
  Yeah, I was assuming that you'd want power and water to the property. That Montana property is beautiful though. Sometimes I'm jealous of you folks in the US; not only do you get rain, you're allowed modern firearms as well.

ballard 13y ago

The only way to scale it seems is for cities to go extremely vertical. Then if there were attractive choices for DIY housing that meets building code The alternatives include taking on a longer commute or being farther from the action.