6 ms·

India is bad for entrepreneurs.

24 points by linux_devil 13y ago

lake99 13y ago
> “You know what my problem is! We’ve already spoken about it, you told me to come back with more information and I did. I’ve come back four times with the correct documentation and you’re still telling me I won’t be approved?!” He was asking the wrong kind of questions. I figured out the right question when I was made told "the officer is busy at the moment", and asked to wait in an empty room. After sitting idly for about half an hour, I realized that the right question was "is there a fee that I could pay to make things go faster?" My task was accomplished in the next five minutes. Of course, I'm Indian, and this was not at a visa office. I don't mean this as advice to "Alex", but the rusty machine runs on greased palms.
- geekam 13y ago
  True. It is a highly corrupt country and there are two good ways to get things done - 1. Have cash ready 2. Know someone in the bureaucracy and 1. I am yet to figure out a third way.
yashg 13y ago
Oh people people apply for a work Visa to India? And India denies it?? I am surprised! Ok sarcasm apart, I didn't think getting a work Visa to India would be so difficult but yes the bureaucracy is strangling. I had to visit the Passport office 3 times to renew my passport. It's like your whole future depends on the whims and fancies of a single government official. And there is no coordination between different government departments. For instance India has come with this new SSN like Unique Identification Number (UID) thing called Aadhaar (Support in Hindi). Government says it is a valid proof of identity, it says so on the Passport web site as well as a valid documents accepted for proof of address but as my colleague recently experienced, the passport officers flatly refuse to accept Aadhaar card as proof of address! If you want your passport, produce the document that I ask for, I don't care what the web site says!
- linux_devil 13y ago
  tell me I don't have a passport Reason : My dad refused to pay bribe . I am fine with it, I will wait for one more year and apply again but without paying bribe
litegeek 13y ago
Well, the government side of things certainly sucks. But not as much as this article blows it out to be. And the title is pretty sensational at best. So, a whole nation is bad because a dozen officers were lazy? I really love the prostitute-ish ways Techcrunch goes sometimes to get pageviews. Well, it's their style anyway (Apple vs Samsung articles, anyone?) Let's forget Techcrunch now. First, I would like to point out certain things about the Indian eco-system for Entrepreneurs. If you plan to run a max-profit, high efficiency startup, India it is. Period. I say 'high efficiency' because you can optimize a lot of things for maximum profit. Programmers are dead cheap. By programmers, I mean real programmers. You can hire decent programmers for $150-$200 a month. And that's a pretty standard amount in the IT scenario in India. The last time I checked people were paying $1000-$2000 for an average marketer who cold calls and emails random people in Western countries. Of course, the next thing you'd argue is about the 'quality' of the programmers. See, these are real people. I know you get to meet a lot of shitty Indians everywhere. They're all over freelancing market places, take your money and do a shitty job. Agreed. But these people are not the 100% of the IT work force in India. They're probably like 30-40% which is large, but they are very much employable. All you need to do is just teach them the right way to do things and they'll grasp. And they improve. Just like everybody else. They're also people like us, right? Next, I say 'maximum profit' because there's a lot of things that will save you money in India. Need some office space? Here you go, starting from $60 a month. And these are in posh locations we're talking about (Contrary to popular belief, India has a lot of posh locations which were not shown in Slumdog Millionaire. Again, sensationalism. Oh this bastardized media!) So, you can get a decent lawyer for $100-200. These guys take care of all your company incorporation, etc. Need an auditor to file taxes? That's just $100 a year. Let's do the math for an American incorporation? $200-$600 for Incorporating an LLC $50-$100/yr for Registered agent. Attorney fees - $1000-$15000 (decent attorney) Travel is dead cheap in India. For $10 you can travel between two states comfortably on a Volvo A/C bus. Traveling within the city? That's just $2 cents. Or $1 cent. Actually even less. Depends on your mode. Safety. I know you've been reading a lot of rape and stuff in the news channel. So, everybody gets to read only the bad parts (Media, again). However, there are a lot of posh, decent areas where there are cops circling around almost 24/7 till night. These places cost slightly extra, but they are totally worth it. Also, it is very important that you realize that India has rape incidents mean the whole nation is spread out with rapists. Rape cases are most often encountered in the northern region. It's safe to say that Southern India is pretty safe (much much safe) compared to North India, which is almost full of sex-starved assholes (vague generalizaion) This is not to say that South India has no rape at all. Just like any other country, abuse exists, but it's pretty controlled in the South. The last time a child molester was caught, he was shot dead in an encounter. (encounters of nasty criminals are pretty common here). Just avoid going out in the nights to lonely places and you should be pretty safe. Avoid public transportation if you can, or opt for deluxe buses/trains. India is as safe as any other country if you take some general precautions. Now back to our start up. If you started up in the United states/United Kingdom, you'd be blowing out money like water. But if you start up in India and seek funding from abroad, most likely people will avoid you because you are an India, and the complications involved. My advice - Setup a C-Corp/LLC/whatever in the States/UK or which ever country you need funding from and then run it from India through an Indian Pvt limited as its partner. Why? Because in India, nobody wants to sue you for rounded corners. Nobody sues startups in India. And even if they do (0.01% probability), the lawyers are pretty cheap. And even if you lose in court, you will most likely have loopholes to escape. And even if you lose the case, you'd be paying very few for damages ($500-$10000) much much lower than compared to what you'd be paying in America/UK. But, the Indian startup scenario is also full of assholes. The founders are generally good, but most lack decent vision. And the accelerators. Oh god, these guys want to be the face of the start up eco-system and will be all over the place. They will want huge percentages in your company to introduce you to some founder you can actually meet over coffee yourself. And seeking funding? Good luck figuring out the terms. Shady at best. But, with all that said, India is the best place for efficient bootstrapping startups. Period. FYI Zoho is from (South) India. The best example I can show you that this is valid advice is to set myself up in India and become really successful, which I will and let my lovely HN community know soon. Ty
pfisch 13y ago
So.....you are probably not going to be an effective entrepreneur in a country like India if you can't even figure out how to pay the cost of doing business for the visa you need to even start your company. If you don't understand that this is a shakedown/bribe situation you should not be incorporating in India. How could you be an effective leader there if you can't even figure this one out.
- jotm 13y ago
  I wish they could just say "there's a special fast track fee if you wish" or simply make it an actual fast track fee. But nooo, it has to be all hint hint, wink wink. And that doesn't concern only India, it's the same thing in all countries with low-mid level corruption. I know they take a risk, but they'd make more money that way AND benefit their country/economy, too.
  - ghshephard 13y ago
    The problem is that it's the clerk who is pocketing the "tea money", so they can't request it, they have to wait for you to offer it.
- lquist 13y ago
  Any country that demands that you commit illegal acts to be an effective entrepreneur is one that is openly hostile to entrepreneurship. Plain and simple.
  - litegeek 13y ago
    So, America should be ranked #1 in your list then. Remember what happened to the Apple vs Samsung verdict? The biased judge? How is that friendly to entrepreneurs when you keep getting bullshit cease and desist letter from shell companies? Stop this cliched bullshit dude.
    - 001sky 13y ago
      Stop this cliched bullshit dude. This shows what a cliched mindset you have. Again you have a cliched mentality. Why? Because it's a cliched mindset. Get stuck much? You try to argue this point in every comment on this thread. Shitty governance may be a cliche, but its a dealkiller in many ways. Its still prevalent in certain areas. Part of it is legal. Part of it is structural. There are some cultural dynamics as to why some things are as they are. Its more beneficial to understand the real problems, to think through them, and to know what you are up against. Than to deny they are figments of the imagination.
parennoob 13y ago
This is more or less exactly how foreign engineers trying to get permanent residency or in the States feel. Both of these systems are horrible, and need exact documentation regarding number of applications processed, along with specific targets. They also need to be staffed with people eager to do their job and welcome people in unless there are specific, real concerns, not actively try to keep them out by any means possible, including infinitely long "processing" delays. [edit: not exactly sure why I'm being downvoted here, but downvoters, please do try and leave a comment if possible. thanks!]
- litegeek 13y ago
  Anti-America isn't HN friendly, my friend. Now watch as this comment gets down-voted into abyss.
  - Koulia 13y ago
    Maybe you will get downvoted because you add exactly nothing to the discussion.
    - litegeek 13y ago
      I'd like to see how you do either - We both have throwaway profiles, commenting about stuff we are offended about and by your definition add nothing to the real discussion ;)
      - Koulia 13y ago
        This is actually my first and only account, but good for you.
- ahomescu1 13y ago
  Reading between the lines of the article suggests that the officials wanted a bribe (which is also what several commenters pointed out). I have never, ever been in any experience like that with a US official (been in the US since 2010 on a student visa).
eksith 13y ago
The situation is pretty much identical in Sri Lanka. If you don't know the right people or don't grease the right wheels, whatever proposal you have is pretty much DOA. Spend cash. Make friends. Then, carry on with your business.
danmaz74 13y ago
Just a nitpick... "Alex (not his real name)" ... "Steven’s plight" = real name? :)
Casseres 13y ago
Derek Sivers is working on a new start-up called Wood Egg. Wood Egg is producing "Entrepreneur’s Guides to Asia" that are updated every year. He choose 16 countries in which he combines insights and instructions for starting business in 16 countries in Asia. One of those countries is India. You can see a list of questions that are answered about operating a start-up in India here: http://woodegg.com/in http://woodegg.com/in If you are not familiar with who Derek Sivers is, you can learn more about him at his website: http://sivers.org/ http://sivers.org/ Most notably, he started CD Baby which he sold for $22M.
MarkMc 13y ago
I have been seriously considering moving to India to set up an IT development shop for my UK company. It seems the bureaucratic path of least resistance is for my UK company to hire an Indian company to do the work. But I don't want to outsource the work - I want to be the lead programmer and have day-to-day management control. So here's my proposed solution: I would say to an Indian accountant, "Please set up an Indian company which you own and are the director. The company would (a) rent an office of my choosing; (b) hire employees of my choosing; (c) pay the director's fees; (d) issue a contract to help me get a 5-year business visa. The company would make a profit of exactly zero because its sales to my UK company would exactly cover its costs." Is this a reasonable approach?
- GrinningFool 13y ago
  Why the development shop in India at all? Is it just a cost benefit - cheaper developers? Because there is some truth in "you get what you pay for". The ratio of good to bad programmers in India is the same as anywhere else[1]. But the pool is quite a bit larger than anywhere else, and there is a massive push of people into IT and IS because of the disproportionate pay. This combines to make very, very difficult to find significant talent[2]. It's comparable to the sudden influx of people into comp sci tracks in the US in the late 90s, but with a population base that's triple the size. If you're looking for people to follow an exact, detailed, spec that you or other senior developer has written -- without exercising any independent though[3]; or if you have already located skilled individuals then it's worth going ahead. Otherwise, make sure it's the right move for your business. The cost can easily run deeper than expenses. The talent is there, but you're going to have a hell of a time finding it if you don't have an connections. [1], [2]: experience in hiring while working for a large US company that employed multiple large indian hiring mills, most notably TCS and InfoSys. [3] the vast majority of the remote hires out of India that I've worked with both at the company above, and subsequent employment.
  - MarkMc 13y ago
    Thanks for the feedback! I have other non-business reasons to be in India, but yes 'cheaper developers' is certainly one reason. You are right that you generally get what you pay for, and I've heard numerous horror stories from foreigners who have tried to hire Indian workers. I have no IT-related connections and would be looking to hire programmers who show initiative and are capable of independent thought. That might sound impossible but I think it's worth a shot - I guess I'm trying to be the Oakland A's of software development [1]. If I couldn't find an excellent programmer in a year I would give up and go home, but even in that case I don't think I'd regret the experience. [1] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1210166/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1210166/
markdown 13y ago
I studied in India about a decade ago and remember it being the same. I never faced the shenanigans this guy did, but wow the red tape was mind-boggling. Just to get admission to the university, I had to get approved by the police commissioner of Hyderabad(then a city of 5 million), which involved an actual meeting with the guy. This despite being in the country on an Indian Government scholarship.
vijayanands 13y ago
Welcome to the world of immigration. Common sense makes very little sense that. Is not a case just for India, it is the case for every country out there, including the US. It is mostly easy to get a short term visa and then extend it, rather than asking for a 5 year visa. lets turn the tables around, would the US issue a five year visa to a entrepreneur trying to come in? Does that make US a bad place for entrepreneurs? I call bullshit.

24 points by linux_devil 13y ago

> “You know what my problem is! We’ve already spoken about it, you told me to come back with more information and I did. I’ve come back four times with the correct documentation and you’re still telling me I won’t be approved?!” He was asking the wrong kind of questions. I figured out the right question when I was made told "the officer is busy at the moment", and asked to wait in an empty room. After sitting idly for about half an hour, I realized that the right question was "is there a fee that I could pay to make things go faster?" My task was accomplished in the next five minutes. Of course, I'm Indian, and this was not at a visa office. I don't mean this as advice to "Alex", but the rusty machine runs on greased palms.

geekam 13y ago
True. It is a highly corrupt country and there are two good ways to get things done - 1. Have cash ready 2. Know someone in the bureaucracy and 1. I am yet to figure out a third way.

yashg 13y ago

Oh people people apply for a work Visa to India? And India denies it?? I am surprised! Ok sarcasm apart, I didn't think getting a work Visa to India would be so difficult but yes the bureaucracy is strangling. I had to visit the Passport office 3 times to renew my passport. It's like your whole future depends on the whims and fancies of a single government official. And there is no coordination between different government departments. For instance India has come with this new SSN like Unique Identification Number (UID) thing called Aadhaar (Support in Hindi). Government says it is a valid proof of identity, it says so on the Passport web site as well as a valid documents accepted for proof of address but as my colleague recently experienced, the passport officers flatly refuse to accept Aadhaar card as proof of address! If you want your passport, produce the document that I ask for, I don't care what the web site says!

linux_devil 13y ago
tell me I don't have a passport Reason : My dad refused to pay bribe . I am fine with it, I will wait for one more year and apply again but without paying bribe

litegeek 13y ago

Well, the government side of things certainly sucks. But not as much as this article blows it out to be. And the title is pretty sensational at best. So, a whole nation is bad because a dozen officers were lazy? I really love the prostitute-ish ways Techcrunch goes sometimes to get pageviews. Well, it's their style anyway (Apple vs Samsung articles, anyone?) Let's forget Techcrunch now. First, I would like to point out certain things about the Indian eco-system for Entrepreneurs. If you plan to run a max-profit, high efficiency startup, India it is. Period. I say 'high efficiency' because you can optimize a lot of things for maximum profit. Programmers are dead cheap. By programmers, I mean real programmers. You can hire decent programmers for $150-$200 a month. And that's a pretty standard amount in the IT scenario in India. The last time I checked people were paying $1000-$2000 for an average marketer who cold calls and emails random people in Western countries. Of course, the next thing you'd argue is about the 'quality' of the programmers. See, these are real people. I know you get to meet a lot of shitty Indians everywhere. They're all over freelancing market places, take your money and do a shitty job. Agreed. But these people are not the 100% of the IT work force in India. They're probably like 30-40% which is large, but they are very much employable. All you need to do is just teach them the right way to do things and they'll grasp. And they improve. Just like everybody else. They're also people like us, right? Next, I say 'maximum profit' because there's a lot of things that will save you money in India. Need some office space? Here you go, starting from $60 a month. And these are in posh locations we're talking about (Contrary to popular belief, India has a lot of posh locations which were not shown in Slumdog Millionaire. Again, sensationalism. Oh this bastardized media!) So, you can get a decent lawyer for $100-200. These guys take care of all your company incorporation, etc. Need an auditor to file taxes? That's just $100 a year. Let's do the math for an American incorporation? $200-$600 for Incorporating an LLC $50-$100/yr for Registered agent. Attorney fees - $1000-$15000 (decent attorney) Travel is dead cheap in India. For $10 you can travel between two states comfortably on a Volvo A/C bus. Traveling within the city? That's just $2 cents. Or $1 cent. Actually even less. Depends on your mode. Safety. I know you've been reading a lot of rape and stuff in the news channel. So, everybody gets to read only the bad parts (Media, again). However, there are a lot of posh, decent areas where there are cops circling around almost 24/7 till night. These places cost slightly extra, but they are totally worth it. Also, it is very important that you realize that India has rape incidents mean the whole nation is spread out with rapists. Rape cases are most often encountered in the northern region. It's safe to say that Southern India is pretty safe (much much safe) compared to North India, which is almost full of sex-starved assholes (vague generalizaion) This is not to say that South India has no rape at all. Just like any other country, abuse exists, but it's pretty controlled in the South. The last time a child molester was caught, he was shot dead in an encounter. (encounters of nasty criminals are pretty common here). Just avoid going out in the nights to lonely places and you should be pretty safe. Avoid public transportation if you can, or opt for deluxe buses/trains. India is as safe as any other country if you take some general precautions. Now back to our start up. If you started up in the United states/United Kingdom, you'd be blowing out money like water. But if you start up in India and seek funding from abroad, most likely people will avoid you because you are an India, and the complications involved. My advice - Setup a C-Corp/LLC/whatever in the States/UK or which ever country you need funding from and then run it from India through an Indian Pvt limited as its partner. Why? Because in India, nobody wants to sue you for rounded corners. Nobody sues startups in India. And even if they do (0.01% probability), the lawyers are pretty cheap. And even if you lose in court, you will most likely have loopholes to escape. And even if you lose the case, you'd be paying very few for damages ($500-$10000) much much lower than compared to what you'd be paying in America/UK. But, the Indian startup scenario is also full of assholes. The founders are generally good, but most lack decent vision. And the accelerators. Oh god, these guys want to be the face of the start up eco-system and will be all over the place. They will want huge percentages in your company to introduce you to some founder you can actually meet over coffee yourself. And seeking funding? Good luck figuring out the terms. Shady at best. But, with all that said, India is the best place for efficient bootstrapping startups. Period. FYI Zoho is from (South) India. The best example I can show you that this is valid advice is to set myself up in India and become really successful, which I will and let my lovely HN community know soon. Ty

pfisch 13y ago

So.....you are probably not going to be an effective entrepreneur in a country like India if you can't even figure out how to pay the cost of doing business for the visa you need to even start your company. If you don't understand that this is a shakedown/bribe situation you should not be incorporating in India. How could you be an effective leader there if you can't even figure this one out.

jotm 13y ago
I wish they could just say "there's a special fast track fee if you wish" or simply make it an actual fast track fee. But nooo, it has to be all hint hint, wink wink. And that doesn't concern only India, it's the same thing in all countries with low-mid level corruption. I know they take a risk, but they'd make more money that way AND benefit their country/economy, too.
- ghshephard 13y ago
  The problem is that it's the clerk who is pocketing the "tea money", so they can't request it, they have to wait for you to offer it.
lquist 13y ago
Any country that demands that you commit illegal acts to be an effective entrepreneur is one that is openly hostile to entrepreneurship. Plain and simple.
- litegeek 13y ago
  So, America should be ranked #1 in your list then. Remember what happened to the Apple vs Samsung verdict? The biased judge? How is that friendly to entrepreneurs when you keep getting bullshit cease and desist letter from shell companies? Stop this cliched bullshit dude.
  - 001sky 13y ago
    Stop this cliched bullshit dude. This shows what a cliched mindset you have. Again you have a cliched mentality. Why? Because it's a cliched mindset. Get stuck much? You try to argue this point in every comment on this thread. Shitty governance may be a cliche, but its a dealkiller in many ways. Its still prevalent in certain areas. Part of it is legal. Part of it is structural. There are some cultural dynamics as to why some things are as they are. Its more beneficial to understand the real problems, to think through them, and to know what you are up against. Than to deny they are figments of the imagination.

parennoob 13y ago

This is more or less exactly how foreign engineers trying to get permanent residency or in the States feel. Both of these systems are horrible, and need exact documentation regarding number of applications processed, along with specific targets. They also need to be staffed with people eager to do their job and welcome people in unless there are specific, real concerns, not actively try to keep them out by any means possible, including infinitely long "processing" delays. [edit: not exactly sure why I'm being downvoted here, but downvoters, please do try and leave a comment if possible. thanks!]

litegeek 13y ago
Anti-America isn't HN friendly, my friend. Now watch as this comment gets down-voted into abyss.
- Koulia 13y ago
  Maybe you will get downvoted because you add exactly nothing to the discussion.
  - litegeek 13y ago
    I'd like to see how you do either - We both have throwaway profiles, commenting about stuff we are offended about and by your definition add nothing to the real discussion ;)
    - Koulia 13y ago
      This is actually my first and only account, but good for you.
ahomescu1 13y ago
Reading between the lines of the article suggests that the officials wanted a bribe (which is also what several commenters pointed out). I have never, ever been in any experience like that with a US official (been in the US since 2010 on a student visa).

eksith 13y ago

The situation is pretty much identical in Sri Lanka. If you don't know the right people or don't grease the right wheels, whatever proposal you have is pretty much DOA. Spend cash. Make friends. Then, carry on with your business.

danmaz74 13y ago

Just a nitpick... "Alex (not his real name)" ... "Steven’s plight" = real name? :)

Casseres 13y ago

Derek Sivers is working on a new start-up called Wood Egg. Wood Egg is producing "Entrepreneur’s Guides to Asia" that are updated every year. He choose 16 countries in which he combines insights and instructions for starting business in 16 countries in Asia. One of those countries is India. You can see a list of questions that are answered about operating a start-up in India here: http://woodegg.com/in http://woodegg.com/in If you are not familiar with who Derek Sivers is, you can learn more about him at his website: http://sivers.org/ http://sivers.org/ Most notably, he started CD Baby which he sold for $22M.

MarkMc 13y ago

I have been seriously considering moving to India to set up an IT development shop for my UK company. It seems the bureaucratic path of least resistance is for my UK company to hire an Indian company to do the work. But I don't want to outsource the work - I want to be the lead programmer and have day-to-day management control. So here's my proposed solution: I would say to an Indian accountant, "Please set up an Indian company which you own and are the director. The company would (a) rent an office of my choosing; (b) hire employees of my choosing; (c) pay the director's fees; (d) issue a contract to help me get a 5-year business visa. The company would make a profit of exactly zero because its sales to my UK company would exactly cover its costs." Is this a reasonable approach?

GrinningFool 13y ago
Why the development shop in India at all? Is it just a cost benefit - cheaper developers? Because there is some truth in "you get what you pay for". The ratio of good to bad programmers in India is the same as anywhere else[1]. But the pool is quite a bit larger than anywhere else, and there is a massive push of people into IT and IS because of the disproportionate pay. This combines to make very, very difficult to find significant talent[2]. It's comparable to the sudden influx of people into comp sci tracks in the US in the late 90s, but with a population base that's triple the size. If you're looking for people to follow an exact, detailed, spec that you or other senior developer has written -- without exercising any independent though[3]; or if you have already located skilled individuals then it's worth going ahead. Otherwise, make sure it's the right move for your business. The cost can easily run deeper than expenses. The talent is there, but you're going to have a hell of a time finding it if you don't have an connections. [1], [2]: experience in hiring while working for a large US company that employed multiple large indian hiring mills, most notably TCS and InfoSys. [3] the vast majority of the remote hires out of India that I've worked with both at the company above, and subsequent employment.
- MarkMc 13y ago
  Thanks for the feedback! I have other non-business reasons to be in India, but yes 'cheaper developers' is certainly one reason. You are right that you generally get what you pay for, and I've heard numerous horror stories from foreigners who have tried to hire Indian workers. I have no IT-related connections and would be looking to hire programmers who show initiative and are capable of independent thought. That might sound impossible but I think it's worth a shot - I guess I'm trying to be the Oakland A's of software development [1]. If I couldn't find an excellent programmer in a year I would give up and go home, but even in that case I don't think I'd regret the experience. [1] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1210166/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1210166/

markdown 13y ago

I studied in India about a decade ago and remember it being the same. I never faced the shenanigans this guy did, but wow the red tape was mind-boggling. Just to get admission to the university, I had to get approved by the police commissioner of Hyderabad(then a city of 5 million), which involved an actual meeting with the guy. This despite being in the country on an Indian Government scholarship.

vijayanands 13y ago

Welcome to the world of immigration. Common sense makes very little sense that. Is not a case just for India, it is the case for every country out there, including the US. It is mostly easy to get a short term visa and then extend it, rather than asking for a 5 year visa. lets turn the tables around, would the US issue a five year visa to a entrepreneur trying to come in? Does that make US a bad place for entrepreneurs? I call bullshit.