16 ms·

New Zealand bans some software patents

902 points by gcforky 13y ago

klaut 13y ago
I am really impressed lately with New Zealand (it started with this MP speech http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfSGOK5jC9I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfSGOK5jC9I). Finally a country that is trying to correct the nonsense that are software patents.
- aidos 13y ago
  Don't be. This is the same country in which the PM thinks it's ok to literally walk out of a Q&A session with the press regarding a widely disputed bill that's being rushed into law.
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    Rushed into law is normal now. I must see the statement Passed Under Urgency most weeks. This is what happens when you give a banker the reins (reigns?).
    - mkingston 13y ago
      Did you ever do that thing in primary school where you put one finger in each corner of your mouth and say "My Dad's a national banker"? If you didn't, I acknowledge that it's weird, but it was funny when I was eight. Anyway, back to the point! We can now do the same and say "John Key's a National banker". Not that I dislike the National Party in general. Just the current National Party.
- mkingston 13y ago
  Kiwi here. As another commenter mentioned, don't be. Overall, I think things are going downhill. The New Zealand Law Society recently reported to the UN Human Rights Council indicating that we've passed a number of laws recently that are in breach of human rights. - We've very recently passed an odious bill to legitimise spying on NZ citizens. - We've recently passed a bill that cannot cannot be challenged in court. (IANAL, don't ask me how this can be the case). - We've recently passed a bill (copyright infringement) that presumes guilt. The report identifies more: http://www.lawsociety.org.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/68541/United-Nations,-Universal-Periodic-Review-17-6-13.pdf http://www.lawsociety.org.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/685... In 2010 many New Zealanders staged a huge protest against mining conservation land (owned by the government, accessible to everyone). The government stood down. Yesterday I discovered permits for mining exploration have been granted on conservation land. Technically, this is land that was not under explicit discussion in 2010, but it unquestionably violates the spirit of the protests. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11115354 http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&o... http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10642083 http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objecti... We're one of the few western democracies that hasn't banned or restricted shark finning. We'd rather have an estimated NZD 6m/yr (IIRC). We'll have a few million dollars instead of an entire species (Maui's dolphin). Another shameful example of our PM in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmF5b_t3PjA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmF5b_t3PjA That's all I can think of for now. Sorry to burst your NZ bubble.
  - mkingston 13y ago
    Upon re-reading my comment, I should probably clarify: the government backed down on mining conservation land.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
appleflaxen 13y ago
Wow; go New Zealand. First the sanity with due process in the Kim Dotcom case, and now this.
- xlevus 13y ago
  Flipside: GCSB bill.
  - NickNameNick 13y ago
    And asset sales, and the search and surveillance act, and...
bentoner 13y ago
Have they banned them like Europe has, or have they actually banned them?
- FOSSpatents 13y ago
  They say they've adopted UK case law, which they claim is more restrictive than the overall European practice, but even under UK rules, hundreds of thousands of European software patents are valid. HTC challenged four Apple software patents and claimed in each case that the invention was not patentable because it was a computer program "as such" (today's New Zealand bill also excludes only patents on programs "as such"), and succeeded on only one of them, and even that one was overturned on appeal. For further detail see the link in my first post to this thread in which I warn people against believing what they hope to be the case just because it makes them feel good, no matter how wrong it may be.
devx 13y ago
Wow. Despite all the lobbying, apparently democracy still works in some countries.
- 16s 13y ago
  As more and more people write code and become technically literate, I think we'll see lots of this sort of thing. Once the majority of normal people "get it" then it's all down hill for those trying to control ideas.
  - devx 13y ago
    The fact that it took them 2 years to do it with VP8...Both VP8 and Hangouts were launched a long time ago.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- mkingston 13y ago
  I wouldn't go that far (see my rant about NZ above). I'll be interested to see more analysis on this bill, or how it's interpreted in court.
16s 13y ago
Would it be possible for devs and small companies in other countries to take advantage of New Zealand laws without actually being there?
- cpursley 13y ago
  Wondering the same thing. What would it take to set up an equivalent of an LLC there to hold the IP of a saas business? And would Americans be able to do a tax pass-through (no or limited NZ tax liability and no change in US tax situation). Keeping the software company in a NZ trust and using that to own a US LLC (for US operations) might be a good way to minimize IP liability.
- scotty79 13y ago
  NZ is not the first country to disallow software patents (also patents on game rules and business methods in some countries). I'm guessing something is stopping Americans from exploiting that. We are talking about the country that taxes its citizens for what they earn while they live in another countries. Only sure way out of this stupidity is to ditch the US citizenship.
crncosta 13y ago
I am really glad this happened and hope other countries takes this as example.
FOSSpatents 13y ago
Not so fast. Spin doctoring is no substitute for substance. As Caesar used to say, "fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt" (people are ready to believe what they want to be the case). The fact of the matter is that New Zealand has passed a law with some restrictive language, but this is far from abolition. Broad swaths of software patents can still be granted. Here's my more detailed take on it: http://www.fosspatents.com/2013/08/new-zealand-parliament-adopts-uk.html http://www.fosspatents.com/2013/08/new-zealand-parliament-ad... And this is what a publication read by patent lawyers says: http://www.iam-magazine.com/blog/Detail.aspx?g=96d4aeaf-dedf-4ab8-a1f6-f28e2ea1ba0d http://www.iam-magazine.com/blog/Detail.aspx?g=96d4aeaf-dedf...
- logn 13y ago
  The rationale here was that they still wanted to allow patents of machines and devices and they had to draw the line somewhere since software these days is embedded in almost everything. I think New Zealand has a very good set of laws in place and has shown remarkable courage to pass this anti-software-patent legislation. Unfortunately, their legislation to support government surveillance and software backdoors is really terrible.
- 1010011010 13y ago
  Are you still getting paid by Oracle?
  - kvb 13y ago
    Is that relevant to the merits of his argument?
    - teddyh 13y ago
      Well, as he said, “Spin doctoring is no substitute for substance.”.
    - parfe 13y ago
      Since Mueller isn't a lawyer, and his only other credentials are being a paid lobbyist, yeah it matters. Sure a lobbyist might be correct, but why would you trust them for information to begin with? And looking at his post with a sceptical mind would have you learn his only third party source is a magazine whose tag-line is "Maximising IP value for business". Even if correct his post is blatant propaganda. In fact, I'd go so far as to question why he chose today to register an account on hacker news. This isn't the first patent related news we've seen.
timje1 13y ago
The real test of this will be if software companies flood to New Zealand to tinker to their hearts content without fear of litigation... or if they flee NZ for fear of invalidating any patents they could have brought on their upcoming software. I'd like to be able to say it will be the former, but I bet corporate lawyers will be pushing for the latter (if only out of a sense of self-preservation).
- cLeEOGPw 13y ago
  If the product is created in NZ that uses technology patented in US for example, would it still be legal for them to do business in US, like offering services?
  - lrem 13y ago
    No. But then, is selling software over a .nz web site to an US resident doing software in NZ or US?
    - NickNameNick 13y ago
      That depends on who is suing you, and where they file. I remember a decision from a few years ago that said something to the effect that any activity that involved transmission of data through the US could be interpreted as having happened in the US, even if the computers, their owners, and operators all resided outside the US.
  - noonespecial 13y ago
    Technically, it's import could be banned, but this only matters if you're Samsung. Practically speaking I doubt the typical east Texas troll even has a clue what kind of shakedown letter to send abroad.
throwaway1979 13y ago
I'm glad this happened. For things like copyright, I thought there were international conventions - countries that were lax were hounded by others diplomatically. Is this not the case for patents?
- FOSSpatents 13y ago
  You're right on. There's a WTO treaty on the Trade-related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (TRIPS), and it requires patents to be available in all fields of technology. See TRIPS Art. 27: http://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/27-trips_04c_e.htm http://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/27-trips_04c_e.htm That's probably part of the reason why New Zealand did't actually ban software patents today. For more information on why today's bill is not tantamount to the abolition of software patents, see my other comments on this thread.
lettergram 13y ago
Country wide spying efforts, but no software patents issues. You win some you lose some I guess.
- lostlogin 13y ago
  I cc the odd email to the prime minister and add a line saying that I've done this to save him asking to see it. His time is valuable.
Qantourisc 13y ago
Victory lap!
lifeisstillgood 13y ago
Very roughly - if the innovation to be patented (ie the software) is used to improve the operation of the hardware then it is patentable. So buffering code in a HDD chip is presumably patentable (-ed). However if its a new way to display email - probably not. Not a clear win, and apparently similar to UK case law. (Cribbing off FOSSPatents links)
- FOSSpatents 13y ago
  Yes, European-style "as such" exclusion, a bit clarified but still the same basic idea. Lexology writes this about today's decision: http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=b966049f-14d9-466c-86d0-70a632dd7a66 http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=b966049f-14d9-... "The computer program exclusion is the subject of two governmental supplementary order papers (SOPs). Government SOP 120 introduces a European-style 'as such' exclusion that is considered to be more consistent with New Zealand's international obligations and precedents. More recent SOP 237 introduces several additional new clauses intended to clarify the meaning of the term 'as such'."
ataggart 13y ago
As Orwell wrote, "the English language ... becomes ugly and inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts." Considering that patents are entirely a government creation, "ban" or "outlaw" does not apply, for such language treats patents as something apart from the state. Perhaps "stops issuing" would be more accurate, but it's not clear from the article whether that's actually the case.
- diminish 13y ago
  Would NZ accept patents from USA (or other WTO countries), in legal processes?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- foobarbazqux 13y ago
  I don't know. Every legal concept is entirely the government's creation, including both physical and intellectual property, so I'm not sure it's worth quibbling about that part.
  - johnchristopher 13y ago
    Every legal concept is entirely the government's creation, including both physical and intellectual property, so I'm not sure it's worth quibbling about that part. Not entirely true. I want to point out that we have to consider how lobbying is influencing lawmakers.
    - foobarbazqux 13y ago
      Sure, lots of things influence the government. But the point is that none of our legal concepts actually exist until the government decides to make laws and enforce them.
  - humanrebar 13y ago
    While intellectual property is almost entirely a legal creation, government is not necessary for property to exist. Indeed, John Locke considered property to be a natural right along with life and liberty.
forlorn 13y ago
Finally!
cpursley 13y ago
Good news. NZ is already in the top-5 economically free countries while still maintaining a respectable social safety. And a couple SaaS heavyweights. Plus, no snakes. http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
- jbooth 13y ago
  The top 2 free-est counties on that list are run by generally benevolent but completely autocratic governments.
  - cpursley 13y ago
    But NZ is not. That's why it's appealing. Seems like a very sensible place to me.
  - ddeck 13y ago
    That is simply not true. While clearly not democratic, Hong Kong for example, is most definitely not an autocracy.
logn 13y ago
Are there any good articles about how people in countries which allow software patents can benefit from this New Zealand body of law, such as incorporating as a New Zealand company and avoiding US jurisdiction for patent lawsuits?
- marcosdumay 13y ago
  If you want to sell your software to US people (who doesn't?), you'll have to deal with software patents, whatever local laws say.
nh 13y ago
US has banned 'software patents' long time ago. However, you can still patent a software being performed by a processor or computer, which then becomes 'hardware'. NZ has now caught up with US. It is not what you think it is.
- dangrossman 13y ago
  Merely being performed by a computer does not make software patentable in NZ under this new law. The inventive step has to involve the hardware to be eligible. They did just make a broad swath of software inventions non-patentable.
  - betterunix 13y ago
    I suspect that people will start writing their patent claims like this: "A method of representing numbers as binary strings in the registers of a CPU, and manipulating those registers such that the output is the representation of the sum of the input numbers." That is what happened in America when we "banned" math^H^H^H^Hsoftware patents. Software itself is not patentable, but the use of a machine to execute specific software is. So the NZ equivalent of "on a computer" will be "manipulating CPU registers" or some similar nonsense.
nawitus 13y ago
Many countries have "banned" software patents. "EU patents" have also "banned" software patents, but they pass thousands of them every year.
consider_this 13y ago
If an idea is truly novel and valuable to the marketplace no patent is needed because the novelty itself provides ample time for you to 'recover' your investment. Either no patents or very short patents[<=12 months for anything] is a basic requirement for a progressive society.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- marcosdumay 13y ago
  The problem is that you can neither get a patent granted nor sue somebody in 12 months. We need faster governments.
shmerl 13y ago
This is great. Hopefully crooked lawyers will be prevented from coming up with workarounds how it happens in Europe.
cromwellian 13y ago
Software patents are an abomination. I could stomach copyright on software, because at least one is still permitted independent implementation and expression. I can't copy your code, but I can rewrite it. Software patents on the other hand put a fence around ideas themselves. You can't draw a cursor using XOR by implementing it yourself, period, for 20 years. The patent system is deeply broken, and it doesn't even stop big players anyway. Really, Apple successfully sued Samsung, did it stop Samsung from taking over half the market? Does $1 billion in fines really matter or Apple or Samsung over the long term? By the time these cases are settled, it has already played out in the consumer marketplace anyway. You can't defeat consumer success with patent attacks. Microsoft's Android revenue shakedown won't replace the death of Windows if it happens, and it won't make Windows Phone/Surface RT a winner. It's a game only lawyers, IP trolls, or paid industry shills love.
- jgeerts 13y ago
  You got my vote on the first sentence.
- cromwellian 13y ago
  BTW, for Florian Mueller who might be reading, here is your paymaster's official published position on software patents: http://www.ibiblio.org/patents/txt/020294.txt http://www.ibiblio.org/patents/txt/020294.txt
- flixic 13y ago
  It is, as John Siracusa called it, "Sport of Kings". He elaborated a lot on the topic in episode 69 of Hypercritical: http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/69 http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/69
- leeoniya 13y ago
  "Get a dozen sharp programmers together, give them all a hard problem to work on, and a bunch of them will come up with solutions that would probably be patentable, and be similar enough that the first programmer to file the patent could sue the others for patent infringement." -- John Carmack from http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/patents/carmack http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/patents/carmack
please_advise 13y ago
Here is a question for the lawyers out there (which I am not): would it be possible to conceive a legal framework somewhat similar in spirit to the GPL, but with the goal of making any patent relying on it free of charge, ie. such that a patent delivered under those terms would be free of use, but also impose the same terms to any patent building up on its content?
DigitalSea 13y ago
Finally. A country gets it. Hell will freeze over before a country like the United States would pass such a bill.
alien3d 13y ago
So i need to move New Zealand for development software.. Any software developer from New Zealand ??
Vektorweg 13y ago
"New Zealand Parliament adopts UK approach to software patents, allows broad swaths of them" - http://www.fosspatents.com/2013/08/new-zealand-parliament-adopts-uk.html http://www.fosspatents.com/2013/08/new-zealand-parliament-ad...
garry420 13y ago
why ?

902 points by gcforky 13y ago

klaut 13y ago

I am really impressed lately with New Zealand (it started with this MP speech http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfSGOK5jC9I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfSGOK5jC9I). Finally a country that is trying to correct the nonsense that are software patents.

aidos 13y ago
Don't be. This is the same country in which the PM thinks it's ok to literally walk out of a Q&A session with the press regarding a widely disputed bill that's being rushed into law.
- lostlogin 13y ago
  Rushed into law is normal now. I must see the statement Passed Under Urgency most weeks. This is what happens when you give a banker the reins (reigns?).
  - mkingston 13y ago
    Did you ever do that thing in primary school where you put one finger in each corner of your mouth and say "My Dad's a national banker"? If you didn't, I acknowledge that it's weird, but it was funny when I was eight. Anyway, back to the point! We can now do the same and say "John Key's a National banker". Not that I dislike the National Party in general. Just the current National Party.
mkingston 13y ago
Kiwi here. As another commenter mentioned, don't be. Overall, I think things are going downhill. The New Zealand Law Society recently reported to the UN Human Rights Council indicating that we've passed a number of laws recently that are in breach of human rights. - We've very recently passed an odious bill to legitimise spying on NZ citizens. - We've recently passed a bill that cannot cannot be challenged in court. (IANAL, don't ask me how this can be the case). - We've recently passed a bill (copyright infringement) that presumes guilt. The report identifies more: http://www.lawsociety.org.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/68541/United-Nations,-Universal-Periodic-Review-17-6-13.pdf http://www.lawsociety.org.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/685... In 2010 many New Zealanders staged a huge protest against mining conservation land (owned by the government, accessible to everyone). The government stood down. Yesterday I discovered permits for mining exploration have been granted on conservation land. Technically, this is land that was not under explicit discussion in 2010, but it unquestionably violates the spirit of the protests. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11115354 http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&o... http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10642083 http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objecti... We're one of the few western democracies that hasn't banned or restricted shark finning. We'd rather have an estimated NZD 6m/yr (IIRC). We'll have a few million dollars instead of an entire species (Maui's dolphin). Another shameful example of our PM in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmF5b_t3PjA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmF5b_t3PjA That's all I can think of for now. Sorry to burst your NZ bubble.
- mkingston 13y ago
  Upon re-reading my comment, I should probably clarify: the government backed down on mining conservation land.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

appleflaxen 13y ago

Wow; go New Zealand. First the sanity with due process in the Kim Dotcom case, and now this.

xlevus 13y ago
Flipside: GCSB bill.
- NickNameNick 13y ago
  And asset sales, and the search and surveillance act, and...

bentoner 13y ago

Have they banned them like Europe has, or have they actually banned them?

FOSSpatents 13y ago
They say they've adopted UK case law, which they claim is more restrictive than the overall European practice, but even under UK rules, hundreds of thousands of European software patents are valid. HTC challenged four Apple software patents and claimed in each case that the invention was not patentable because it was a computer program "as such" (today's New Zealand bill also excludes only patents on programs "as such"), and succeeded on only one of them, and even that one was overturned on appeal. For further detail see the link in my first post to this thread in which I warn people against believing what they hope to be the case just because it makes them feel good, no matter how wrong it may be.

devx 13y ago

Wow. Despite all the lobbying, apparently democracy still works in some countries.

16s 13y ago
As more and more people write code and become technically literate, I think we'll see lots of this sort of thing. Once the majority of normal people "get it" then it's all down hill for those trying to control ideas.
- devx 13y ago
  The fact that it took them 2 years to do it with VP8...Both VP8 and Hangouts were launched a long time ago.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
mkingston 13y ago
I wouldn't go that far (see my rant about NZ above). I'll be interested to see more analysis on this bill, or how it's interpreted in court.

16s 13y ago

Would it be possible for devs and small companies in other countries to take advantage of New Zealand laws without actually being there?

cpursley 13y ago
Wondering the same thing. What would it take to set up an equivalent of an LLC there to hold the IP of a saas business? And would Americans be able to do a tax pass-through (no or limited NZ tax liability and no change in US tax situation). Keeping the software company in a NZ trust and using that to own a US LLC (for US operations) might be a good way to minimize IP liability.
scotty79 13y ago
NZ is not the first country to disallow software patents (also patents on game rules and business methods in some countries). I'm guessing something is stopping Americans from exploiting that. We are talking about the country that taxes its citizens for what they earn while they live in another countries. Only sure way out of this stupidity is to ditch the US citizenship.

crncosta 13y ago

I am really glad this happened and hope other countries takes this as example.

FOSSpatents 13y ago

Not so fast. Spin doctoring is no substitute for substance. As Caesar used to say, "fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt" (people are ready to believe what they want to be the case). The fact of the matter is that New Zealand has passed a law with some restrictive language, but this is far from abolition. Broad swaths of software patents can still be granted. Here's my more detailed take on it: http://www.fosspatents.com/2013/08/new-zealand-parliament-adopts-uk.html http://www.fosspatents.com/2013/08/new-zealand-parliament-ad... And this is what a publication read by patent lawyers says: http://www.iam-magazine.com/blog/Detail.aspx?g=96d4aeaf-dedf-4ab8-a1f6-f28e2ea1ba0d http://www.iam-magazine.com/blog/Detail.aspx?g=96d4aeaf-dedf...

logn 13y ago
The rationale here was that they still wanted to allow patents of machines and devices and they had to draw the line somewhere since software these days is embedded in almost everything. I think New Zealand has a very good set of laws in place and has shown remarkable courage to pass this anti-software-patent legislation. Unfortunately, their legislation to support government surveillance and software backdoors is really terrible.
1010011010 13y ago
Are you still getting paid by Oracle?
- kvb 13y ago
  Is that relevant to the merits of his argument?
  - teddyh 13y ago
    Well, as he said, “Spin doctoring is no substitute for substance.”.
  - parfe 13y ago
    Since Mueller isn't a lawyer, and his only other credentials are being a paid lobbyist, yeah it matters. Sure a lobbyist might be correct, but why would you trust them for information to begin with? And looking at his post with a sceptical mind would have you learn his only third party source is a magazine whose tag-line is "Maximising IP value for business". Even if correct his post is blatant propaganda. In fact, I'd go so far as to question why he chose today to register an account on hacker news. This isn't the first patent related news we've seen.

timje1 13y ago

The real test of this will be if software companies flood to New Zealand to tinker to their hearts content without fear of litigation... or if they flee NZ for fear of invalidating any patents they could have brought on their upcoming software. I'd like to be able to say it will be the former, but I bet corporate lawyers will be pushing for the latter (if only out of a sense of self-preservation).

cLeEOGPw 13y ago
If the product is created in NZ that uses technology patented in US for example, would it still be legal for them to do business in US, like offering services?
- lrem 13y ago
  No. But then, is selling software over a .nz web site to an US resident doing software in NZ or US?
  - NickNameNick 13y ago
    That depends on who is suing you, and where they file. I remember a decision from a few years ago that said something to the effect that any activity that involved transmission of data through the US could be interpreted as having happened in the US, even if the computers, their owners, and operators all resided outside the US.
- noonespecial 13y ago
  Technically, it's import could be banned, but this only matters if you're Samsung. Practically speaking I doubt the typical east Texas troll even has a clue what kind of shakedown letter to send abroad.

throwaway1979 13y ago

I'm glad this happened. For things like copyright, I thought there were international conventions - countries that were lax were hounded by others diplomatically. Is this not the case for patents?

FOSSpatents 13y ago
You're right on. There's a WTO treaty on the Trade-related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (TRIPS), and it requires patents to be available in all fields of technology. See TRIPS Art. 27: http://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/27-trips_04c_e.htm http://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/27-trips_04c_e.htm That's probably part of the reason why New Zealand did't actually ban software patents today. For more information on why today's bill is not tantamount to the abolition of software patents, see my other comments on this thread.

lettergram 13y ago

Country wide spying efforts, but no software patents issues. You win some you lose some I guess.

lostlogin 13y ago
I cc the odd email to the prime minister and add a line saying that I've done this to save him asking to see it. His time is valuable.

Qantourisc 13y ago

Victory lap!

lifeisstillgood 13y ago

Very roughly - if the innovation to be patented (ie the software) is used to improve the operation of the hardware then it is patentable. So buffering code in a HDD chip is presumably patentable (-ed). However if its a new way to display email - probably not. Not a clear win, and apparently similar to UK case law. (Cribbing off FOSSPatents links)

FOSSpatents 13y ago
Yes, European-style "as such" exclusion, a bit clarified but still the same basic idea. Lexology writes this about today's decision: http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=b966049f-14d9-466c-86d0-70a632dd7a66 http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=b966049f-14d9-... "The computer program exclusion is the subject of two governmental supplementary order papers (SOPs). Government SOP 120 introduces a European-style 'as such' exclusion that is considered to be more consistent with New Zealand's international obligations and precedents. More recent SOP 237 introduces several additional new clauses intended to clarify the meaning of the term 'as such'."

ataggart 13y ago

As Orwell wrote, "the English language ... becomes ugly and inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts." Considering that patents are entirely a government creation, "ban" or "outlaw" does not apply, for such language treats patents as something apart from the state. Perhaps "stops issuing" would be more accurate, but it's not clear from the article whether that's actually the case.

diminish 13y ago
Would NZ accept patents from USA (or other WTO countries), in legal processes?
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
foobarbazqux 13y ago
I don't know. Every legal concept is entirely the government's creation, including both physical and intellectual property, so I'm not sure it's worth quibbling about that part.
- johnchristopher 13y ago
  Every legal concept is entirely the government's creation, including both physical and intellectual property, so I'm not sure it's worth quibbling about that part. Not entirely true. I want to point out that we have to consider how lobbying is influencing lawmakers.
  - foobarbazqux 13y ago
    Sure, lots of things influence the government. But the point is that none of our legal concepts actually exist until the government decides to make laws and enforce them.
- humanrebar 13y ago
  While intellectual property is almost entirely a legal creation, government is not necessary for property to exist. Indeed, John Locke considered property to be a natural right along with life and liberty.

forlorn 13y ago

Finally!

cpursley 13y ago

Good news. NZ is already in the top-5 economically free countries while still maintaining a respectable social safety. And a couple SaaS heavyweights. Plus, no snakes. http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

jbooth 13y ago
The top 2 free-est counties on that list are run by generally benevolent but completely autocratic governments.
- cpursley 13y ago
  But NZ is not. That's why it's appealing. Seems like a very sensible place to me.
- ddeck 13y ago
  That is simply not true. While clearly not democratic, Hong Kong for example, is most definitely not an autocracy.

logn 13y ago

Are there any good articles about how people in countries which allow software patents can benefit from this New Zealand body of law, such as incorporating as a New Zealand company and avoiding US jurisdiction for patent lawsuits?

marcosdumay 13y ago
If you want to sell your software to US people (who doesn't?), you'll have to deal with software patents, whatever local laws say.

nh 13y ago

US has banned 'software patents' long time ago. However, you can still patent a software being performed by a processor or computer, which then becomes 'hardware'. NZ has now caught up with US. It is not what you think it is.

dangrossman 13y ago
Merely being performed by a computer does not make software patentable in NZ under this new law. The inventive step has to involve the hardware to be eligible. They did just make a broad swath of software inventions non-patentable.
- betterunix 13y ago
  I suspect that people will start writing their patent claims like this: "A method of representing numbers as binary strings in the registers of a CPU, and manipulating those registers such that the output is the representation of the sum of the input numbers." That is what happened in America when we "banned" math^H^H^H^Hsoftware patents. Software itself is not patentable, but the use of a machine to execute specific software is. So the NZ equivalent of "on a computer" will be "manipulating CPU registers" or some similar nonsense.

nawitus 13y ago

Many countries have "banned" software patents. "EU patents" have also "banned" software patents, but they pass thousands of them every year.

consider_this 13y ago

If an idea is truly novel and valuable to the marketplace no patent is needed because the novelty itself provides ample time for you to 'recover' your investment. Either no patents or very short patents[<=12 months for anything] is a basic requirement for a progressive society.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
marcosdumay 13y ago
The problem is that you can neither get a patent granted nor sue somebody in 12 months. We need faster governments.

shmerl 13y ago

This is great. Hopefully crooked lawyers will be prevented from coming up with workarounds how it happens in Europe.

cromwellian 13y ago

Software patents are an abomination. I could stomach copyright on software, because at least one is still permitted independent implementation and expression. I can't copy your code, but I can rewrite it. Software patents on the other hand put a fence around ideas themselves. You can't draw a cursor using XOR by implementing it yourself, period, for 20 years. The patent system is deeply broken, and it doesn't even stop big players anyway. Really, Apple successfully sued Samsung, did it stop Samsung from taking over half the market? Does $1 billion in fines really matter or Apple or Samsung over the long term? By the time these cases are settled, it has already played out in the consumer marketplace anyway. You can't defeat consumer success with patent attacks. Microsoft's Android revenue shakedown won't replace the death of Windows if it happens, and it won't make Windows Phone/Surface RT a winner. It's a game only lawyers, IP trolls, or paid industry shills love.

jgeerts 13y ago
You got my vote on the first sentence.
cromwellian 13y ago
BTW, for Florian Mueller who might be reading, here is your paymaster's official published position on software patents: http://www.ibiblio.org/patents/txt/020294.txt http://www.ibiblio.org/patents/txt/020294.txt
flixic 13y ago
It is, as John Siracusa called it, "Sport of Kings". He elaborated a lot on the topic in episode 69 of Hypercritical: http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/69 http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/69
leeoniya 13y ago
"Get a dozen sharp programmers together, give them all a hard problem to work on, and a bunch of them will come up with solutions that would probably be patentable, and be similar enough that the first programmer to file the patent could sue the others for patent infringement." -- John Carmack from http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/patents/carmack http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/patents/carmack

please_advise 13y ago

Here is a question for the lawyers out there (which I am not): would it be possible to conceive a legal framework somewhat similar in spirit to the GPL, but with the goal of making any patent relying on it free of charge, ie. such that a patent delivered under those terms would be free of use, but also impose the same terms to any patent building up on its content?

DigitalSea 13y ago

Finally. A country gets it. Hell will freeze over before a country like the United States would pass such a bill.

alien3d 13y ago

So i need to move New Zealand for development software.. Any software developer from New Zealand ??

Vektorweg 13y ago

"New Zealand Parliament adopts UK approach to software patents, allows broad swaths of them" - http://www.fosspatents.com/2013/08/new-zealand-parliament-adopts-uk.html http://www.fosspatents.com/2013/08/new-zealand-parliament-ad...

garry420 13y ago

why ?