9 ms·

Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much”

128 points by dboles99 13y ago

ryanackley 13y ago
He flew home to the USA but he was processed in Canada? In other words, did he fly into Canada from SE Asia and then immediately drive to the USA? Honestly, that would look a little suspicious to me if I was a customs officer. I've flown into L.A. and Dallas/Fort-Worth a bunch of times from the Asia Pacific region of the world and never received a glance at any of my visa pages.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  Plenty of international flights connect through Canada, like Vancouver on the west coast. Also, most big Canadian airports have American immigration facilities since they have so much traffic to process, quite efficient actually.
  - kevin_nisbet 13y ago
    More information about preclearance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_border_preclearance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_border_preclearan...
- jusben1369 13y ago
  Yes you're on to something. It's kind of a two part story to me: i) Was it reasonable to suspect this person of being worthy of a closer look? It seems like the answer is a yes based on his locations and pattern ii) Is the form that that 'closer look' takes reasonable? Causing someone to miss their connecting flight seems unfortunate.
w1ntermute 13y ago
I'm sorry, but if you try to enter the US with any physical objects that have even the remotest chance of being interpreted as being illegal, or digital storage that isn't encrypted, you're just asking for trouble these days.
- drdaeman 13y ago
  Uhm, in light of those, isn't it risky to enter US with encrypted digital storage too?
  - kintamanimatt 13y ago
    Cross borders with blank drives. Re-image when you're at your destination. Although it can be interpreted as such, it's not a sign of guilt, it's a response to the possible threat of immigration officers on a power trip. The vast majority are absolutely fine, but there are some that overstep their bounds or work within an egregious legal framework, e.g. the Brits. If they force you to decrypt your data (as they legally can in the UK), who knows what they'll do with it, especially if you've got proprietary work and confidential business stuff on there.
    - skrause 13y ago
      The drive doesn't have to be blank. Just put on a fresh install of an OS and don't put on any personal files. Then reimage after reaching your destination.
    - ErsatzVerkehr 13y ago
      > Cross borders with blank drives. Re-image when you're at your destination. I'm guessing you don't actually travel very much.
scrrr 13y ago
Yeah, this is not freedom. It's alright, USA. But stop pretending otherwise.
seanmcdirmid 13y ago
I have been searched by borders and customs so many times in Seattle that I think they single put Americans for special treatment. I never come with much in my luggage (I shop in the states since china is expensive), so the searches go,quickly at least.
reustle 13y ago
> They even went through his laptop and copied his hard disks. I may be completely out of line here but why can't he request a lawyer before doing this kind of stuff? Why are they allowed to dig so deep into someone without any evidence of doing something illegal?
- Spoom 13y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception Basically, the Fourth Amendment doesn't apply at the border, and they're under no obligation to allow him to contact anyone.
- kintamanimatt 13y ago
  And always have good backups, especially when traveling. Loss and theft are serious risks. There have even been anecdotes of people having their laptops confiscated for long periods of time by government employees at borders for the silliest of reasons. Hardware is replaceable, but all the projects, notes, and things you've been working on for possibly years are not.
mathattack 13y ago
I had a business colleague who was based elsewhere in Asia for several years. He visited Thailand every few weeks the entire stay. When he returned to the US, immigration gave him the same rundown. When he finally convinced them that he was just a young guy who wanted to have fun, they waved him through with a smile.
jacquesm 13y ago
Borders have three uses: 1) to keep people out 2) to keep people in 3) to be able to search/detain people without cause I've yet to see a border that I liked. In plenty of countries this now extends to a certain distance away from the border (sometimes surprisingly large), even when you are not actively crossing or have not crossed.
- bowlofpetunias 13y ago
  Assuming from your profile that, like myself, you live in the Netherlands, I'm pretty sure you have no objections to our land borders... Of course, yo have to pay attention to actually notice those as you cross them. My point is, those borders are still very real, they have great social, cultural, legal and economic significance, yet they don't serve any of those three purposes.
  - jacquesm 13y ago
    http://www.government.nl/documents-and-publications/press-releases/2011/05/31/full-mobile-controls-by-border-police-reinstated.html http://www.government.nl/documents-and-publications/press-re...
    - lambda 13y ago
      Note that in the US, we have strict stop everyone controls at the border (with Canada no less, this isn't just a Mexican border thing), at which you need to show your passport, and we have mobile border controls up to 100 miles within the border. I used to live near a place where they frequently put the "mobile" control on an interstate in Vermont about 80 miles from the border, so I got stopped by it a lot. Of course, I've always wondered about how useful the mobile controls are, other than for getting people used to a police state. They are not allowed to ask any US citizens for passports or proof of US citizenship; so they always ask "is everyone in this car a US citizen" and then wave you on if you say yes. When my friend, who is Malaysian, answered "no, I'm not a US citizen", they thought based on his excellent American English accent that he was joking and waved him on anyhow.
jasonkester 13y ago
For all the mean things that border control agents get away with every day, I personally enjoy "Returning From Thailand" as my little opportunity to even the score a bit. "How long have you been gone?" "I don't know. A year, give or take? Who keeps track?" "Which countries did you visit while you were away? Your landing card just says 'most of them'" "Well probably not most of them really, but definitely enough not to fit in that space. Let's see... [followed by a complete list] "What's your occupation?" "I own a software company. It pretty much runs itself these days, and I just check in every once in a while to see how things are going." "Is this bag your only luggage?" "Yeah. I was only gone a year, remember. I find you don't really need much stuff in the tropics. I've worn this shirt 40 days running now. I think I'll buy a new one now that I'm home" Basically, it's your opportunity to remind them that their job is to sit in a little cube talking to people who are actually out there leading exciting lives. And that their attempts to make other people's lives worse is not really doing a very good job of making their own life any better. One day they'll quit and go find a better job. Or give up trying to make other people's lives worse, thus making the world a slightly better place. Seems to be working. These days at LAX, it seems that one in four of the people manning those desks is genuinely friendly. And the ones that need this sort of treatment are few and far between.
- kintamanimatt 13y ago
  > Your landing card just says 'most of them'" I'm so sorry for not contributing anything of value to the conversation, but that's the funniest thing I've read all week! I've gotta try this next time I don't have a connecting flight!
- amirmc 13y ago
  Slightly tounge-in-cheek but I really hope that I'm not the guy behind you in line when I next visit the US.
  - kintamanimatt 13y ago
    Usually people of interest get whisked aside to a secondary screening area. They don't tend to hold up the queue that much, except for the fact the border agent has to temporarily close their desk for a few minutes while they escort that person to another room. In total you might face an extra 60-120 seconds in the line.
lignuist 13y ago
I wonder how many people have the US on their personal no-fly lists because of such stories?
- rjsw 13y ago
  Plenty of people, I haven't been to the US for 10 years.
- justadude 13y ago
  I certainly avoid the US for any connecting flights to Central and South America (I live in Europe). I've also been avoiding vacationing in the US since I experienced some rather rude TSA agents at Miami International a few years ago, although to be fair I have seen some of the US and wanted to expand my horizons.
sschueller 13y ago
What I would love to do is to get stamps from the 'axis of evil' all on one page of my passport by visiting Iran, Iraq and North Korea, then travel the the US. Maybe I can get them to also stamp that page :)
- jwr 13y ago
  You mean with a "Guantanamo Bay - ADMITTED" stamp? (I just realized that this would be a silly and not-too-funny joke several years back, while these days it is both not silly and not funny at all)
AmVess 13y ago
Honestly, if there were a minimum IQ rating of 25 at DHS to be considered for employment, most of our problems with that agency would evaporate overnight.
- jetti 13y ago
  The issue isn't "stupid employees" as you seem to think but an overreaching policy that is trying to cover all situations at once but doesn't really cover any. Add to that the reactionary measures that seem to be a staple of DHS since its inception and you just have a recipe for disaster.
cpursley 13y ago
This is another good case of having a second passport as an American (or any place for that matter) for travel and (shtf) insurance purposes. "Distributed Nationality" if you will.
- kintamanimatt 13y ago
  What risks are you trying to protect against?
  - tehwalrus 13y ago
    people being able to see your travel history. Go to places on one side of the argument with one passport, then the other with the other, they never need to know you went to both.
  - cpursley 13y ago
    Political risk, business risk, etc. The same reason you don't invest everything in one stock, one skill-set, etc. Same reason you back up your database and use version control. Distributed systems is all the rage now. It makes sense on all levels of life.
- walshemj 13y ago
  Useful if you want to visit Israel and Arab countrys and both Greece and Turkey. My college at an arab civil engineers aid that the FO was normaly quite understanding about this.
- superuser2 13y ago
  The State Department will sometimes grant a second passport if you can prove you need it - like if one of your visa stamps is known to get people killed in your new destination country.
  - cpursley 13y ago
    I mean second passport as in one issued by another nation state.
marvin 13y ago
I have no words. They won't even stop at looking through your files on a groundless suspicion - they'll clone your harddrive? With your naked pictures of your girlfriend, diary, company secrets and everything? And I'm a "rights-free person" (a foreigner). If they do this stuff to citizens, I can't even imagine what sort of authority they have over foreigners. You guys really need to rein in your government, this is getting insane.
- hyperventilator 13y ago
  Is it not the same elswhere? It is at least in the UK, what about the rest of Europe?
- auctiontheory 13y ago
  Canada does this too. [http://tynan.com/ohcanada http://tynan.com/ohcanada] Probably every country with the technological capability does this when they feel like it. You have no rights at an international border. And if you're non-white, you have even fewer rights.
CitizenKane 13y ago
To be honest, this isn't so hard to do. I went to Kazakhstan to visit a college friend once and got placed on the watch list for the two years after that. Apparently visiting a country with stan in the name, regardless of purpose, is cause for suspicion. I'm a little surprised they bothered to copy the hard drives. Usually they just do a full search down and then they want you to be gone as soon as possible. It makes me sad, but I'm unsure as to what to do about it. I'd generally suggest removing the hard drive from the computer, but that's becoming more difficult to do. You can use full drive encryption, but then if they want they might just confiscate the whole computer. Beyond that, at this point that unless your paranoid your communications can be monitored with ease.
kseistrup 13y ago
US, land of the free…
graup 13y ago
> The pictures of your kids taking a bath maybe interpreted in a different way by immigration officers Reminds me of a story just like that. The only source I can find now: http://www.muripo.com/2013/06/07/elderly-man-arrested-for-possession-of-photos-of-children-playing-with-water/ http://www.muripo.com/2013/06/07/elderly-man-arrested-for-po... but I'm sure quite it was on HN.
morgante 13y ago
Unfortunate story, but also very different than my experience with US border control. As someone who travels outside the US many times a year, including to somewhat odd places (last year has included Sudan, United Arab Emirates, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Malaysia, Ukraine), I've never had a single problem or spent more than a minute talking to anyone from customs or immigration. Of course, the TSA is another story.
gnu8 13y ago
It's odd that we still "stamp" passports, allowing border guards to see what countries you have visited in the past. This information should not be available to any authorities by any means, but especially not appended to your identity documents. Afaik, only Israel has a correct policy on this.
- kyllo 13y ago
  A passport was not originally intended to be an identity document, only a travel document. But the US doesn't have any official identity document, so the passport gets de facto used as one. This is unfortunate for a number of reasons.
jwr 13y ago
As a dual-citizen I still find it mind-boggling that a US border guard asks me questions about my private life. It still isn't clear to me what can happen if I answer "wrong" (e.g. the answers do not meet his expectations). For comparison, in many (if not most) countries (I don't want to name my specific case because this could derail the discussino) a border guard presented with a passport issued by his own country has exactly two options: 1) arrest the person on the spot (arrest meaning what it should, e.g. call the police and follow the law) or 2) let the person in. There are no questions, because the border guard has zero discretion in letting the person in. In general, a citizen of any country should always be able to enter that country, no questions asked (with the possibility of being arrested right afterwards, of course). I find it both strange and disturbing that this gray area seems to be universally accepted and that outrage (like in the article above) is rare.
- twoodfin 13y ago
  This is a type of "behavioral profiling". They take you on a random walk down a conversation tree, and unless you're a very good liar, it will be difficult for you to answer the questions without delays, inconsistencies or other signs of prevarication. It's a common claim around here that airport security is mostly theater and that El Al does it right. But El Al uses behavioral profiling, and as you point out, that can seem as intrusive as any scan.
  - theycallmemorty 13y ago
    > it will be difficult for you to answer the questions without delays, inconsistencies or other signs of prevarication. What if I'm a little absent minded and I already have a hard time answering without delays and inconsistencies?
    - twoodfin 13y ago
      Are you arguing that behavioral profiling is useless or that it's not perfect? The classification technique goes beyond just watching how fast you answer: It's a skill that takes training and practice, but can be extremely effective, which is why the Israelis and U.S. ICE use it.
dr_ 13y ago
Few articles on here lately regarding government "security" operations and the TSA. I can sympathize with these people, however most of the issues I have personally encountered have been outside the US, not while leaving the States or upon arrival. I've recently signed up for Global Entry, which is worth it I think, if you're concerned about any of these things. You are pre-screened in advance, and pretty much not bothered with immigration beyond that when you leave or arrive (note: TSA screenings still apply, unless you are a candidate for TSA pre check which, I believe, only applies to domestic flights as of now).
lukeschlather 13y ago
Honestly, this is refreshing. The US does not have a serious terrorism problem, so the massive amount of border searches are very trouble. We're giving up a lot of freedom to solve a problem that we don't really have. On the other hand, we do have a pretty serious human trafficking problem, so I'm glad to see someone taking it seriously.
MFR1965 13y ago
You are a mean person. Even if the ends justify these particular means, as you suggest (and I don't even think you've got the cause and effect right here), insulting and demeaning someone far less privileged than you was immoral.

128 points by dboles99 13y ago

He flew home to the USA but he was processed in Canada? In other words, did he fly into Canada from SE Asia and then immediately drive to the USA? Honestly, that would look a little suspicious to me if I was a customs officer. I've flown into L.A. and Dallas/Fort-Worth a bunch of times from the Asia Pacific region of the world and never received a glance at any of my visa pages.

seanmcdirmid 13y ago
Plenty of international flights connect through Canada, like Vancouver on the west coast. Also, most big Canadian airports have American immigration facilities since they have so much traffic to process, quite efficient actually.
- kevin_nisbet 13y ago
  More information about preclearance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_border_preclearance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_border_preclearan...
jusben1369 13y ago
Yes you're on to something. It's kind of a two part story to me: i) Was it reasonable to suspect this person of being worthy of a closer look? It seems like the answer is a yes based on his locations and pattern ii) Is the form that that 'closer look' takes reasonable? Causing someone to miss their connecting flight seems unfortunate.

w1ntermute 13y ago

I'm sorry, but if you try to enter the US with any physical objects that have even the remotest chance of being interpreted as being illegal, or digital storage that isn't encrypted, you're just asking for trouble these days.

drdaeman 13y ago
Uhm, in light of those, isn't it risky to enter US with encrypted digital storage too?
- kintamanimatt 13y ago
  Cross borders with blank drives. Re-image when you're at your destination. Although it can be interpreted as such, it's not a sign of guilt, it's a response to the possible threat of immigration officers on a power trip. The vast majority are absolutely fine, but there are some that overstep their bounds or work within an egregious legal framework, e.g. the Brits. If they force you to decrypt your data (as they legally can in the UK), who knows what they'll do with it, especially if you've got proprietary work and confidential business stuff on there.
  - skrause 13y ago
    The drive doesn't have to be blank. Just put on a fresh install of an OS and don't put on any personal files. Then reimage after reaching your destination.
  - ErsatzVerkehr 13y ago
    > Cross borders with blank drives. Re-image when you're at your destination. I'm guessing you don't actually travel very much.

scrrr 13y ago

Yeah, this is not freedom. It's alright, USA. But stop pretending otherwise.

seanmcdirmid 13y ago

I have been searched by borders and customs so many times in Seattle that I think they single put Americans for special treatment. I never come with much in my luggage (I shop in the states since china is expensive), so the searches go,quickly at least.

reustle 13y ago

> They even went through his laptop and copied his hard disks. I may be completely out of line here but why can't he request a lawyer before doing this kind of stuff? Why are they allowed to dig so deep into someone without any evidence of doing something illegal?

Spoom 13y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception Basically, the Fourth Amendment doesn't apply at the border, and they're under no obligation to allow him to contact anyone.
kintamanimatt 13y ago
And always have good backups, especially when traveling. Loss and theft are serious risks. There have even been anecdotes of people having their laptops confiscated for long periods of time by government employees at borders for the silliest of reasons. Hardware is replaceable, but all the projects, notes, and things you've been working on for possibly years are not.

mathattack 13y ago

I had a business colleague who was based elsewhere in Asia for several years. He visited Thailand every few weeks the entire stay. When he returned to the US, immigration gave him the same rundown. When he finally convinced them that he was just a young guy who wanted to have fun, they waved him through with a smile.

jacquesm 13y ago

Borders have three uses: 1) to keep people out 2) to keep people in 3) to be able to search/detain people without cause I've yet to see a border that I liked. In plenty of countries this now extends to a certain distance away from the border (sometimes surprisingly large), even when you are not actively crossing or have not crossed.

bowlofpetunias 13y ago
Assuming from your profile that, like myself, you live in the Netherlands, I'm pretty sure you have no objections to our land borders... Of course, yo have to pay attention to actually notice those as you cross them. My point is, those borders are still very real, they have great social, cultural, legal and economic significance, yet they don't serve any of those three purposes.
- jacquesm 13y ago
  http://www.government.nl/documents-and-publications/press-releases/2011/05/31/full-mobile-controls-by-border-police-reinstated.html http://www.government.nl/documents-and-publications/press-re...
  - lambda 13y ago
    Note that in the US, we have strict stop everyone controls at the border (with Canada no less, this isn't just a Mexican border thing), at which you need to show your passport, and we have mobile border controls up to 100 miles within the border. I used to live near a place where they frequently put the "mobile" control on an interstate in Vermont about 80 miles from the border, so I got stopped by it a lot. Of course, I've always wondered about how useful the mobile controls are, other than for getting people used to a police state. They are not allowed to ask any US citizens for passports or proof of US citizenship; so they always ask "is everyone in this car a US citizen" and then wave you on if you say yes. When my friend, who is Malaysian, answered "no, I'm not a US citizen", they thought based on his excellent American English accent that he was joking and waved him on anyhow.

jasonkester 13y ago

For all the mean things that border control agents get away with every day, I personally enjoy "Returning From Thailand" as my little opportunity to even the score a bit. "How long have you been gone?" "I don't know. A year, give or take? Who keeps track?" "Which countries did you visit while you were away? Your landing card just says 'most of them'" "Well probably not most of them really, but definitely enough not to fit in that space. Let's see... [followed by a complete list] "What's your occupation?" "I own a software company. It pretty much runs itself these days, and I just check in every once in a while to see how things are going." "Is this bag your only luggage?" "Yeah. I was only gone a year, remember. I find you don't really need much stuff in the tropics. I've worn this shirt 40 days running now. I think I'll buy a new one now that I'm home" Basically, it's your opportunity to remind them that their job is to sit in a little cube talking to people who are actually out there leading exciting lives. And that their attempts to make other people's lives worse is not really doing a very good job of making their own life any better. One day they'll quit and go find a better job. Or give up trying to make other people's lives worse, thus making the world a slightly better place. Seems to be working. These days at LAX, it seems that one in four of the people manning those desks is genuinely friendly. And the ones that need this sort of treatment are few and far between.

kintamanimatt 13y ago
> Your landing card just says 'most of them'" I'm so sorry for not contributing anything of value to the conversation, but that's the funniest thing I've read all week! I've gotta try this next time I don't have a connecting flight!
amirmc 13y ago
Slightly tounge-in-cheek but I really hope that I'm not the guy behind you in line when I next visit the US.
- kintamanimatt 13y ago
  Usually people of interest get whisked aside to a secondary screening area. They don't tend to hold up the queue that much, except for the fact the border agent has to temporarily close their desk for a few minutes while they escort that person to another room. In total you might face an extra 60-120 seconds in the line.

lignuist 13y ago

I wonder how many people have the US on their personal no-fly lists because of such stories?

rjsw 13y ago
Plenty of people, I haven't been to the US for 10 years.
justadude 13y ago
I certainly avoid the US for any connecting flights to Central and South America (I live in Europe). I've also been avoiding vacationing in the US since I experienced some rather rude TSA agents at Miami International a few years ago, although to be fair I have seen some of the US and wanted to expand my horizons.

sschueller 13y ago

What I would love to do is to get stamps from the 'axis of evil' all on one page of my passport by visiting Iran, Iraq and North Korea, then travel the the US. Maybe I can get them to also stamp that page :)

jwr 13y ago
You mean with a "Guantanamo Bay - ADMITTED" stamp? (I just realized that this would be a silly and not-too-funny joke several years back, while these days it is both not silly and not funny at all)

AmVess 13y ago

Honestly, if there were a minimum IQ rating of 25 at DHS to be considered for employment, most of our problems with that agency would evaporate overnight.

jetti 13y ago
The issue isn't "stupid employees" as you seem to think but an overreaching policy that is trying to cover all situations at once but doesn't really cover any. Add to that the reactionary measures that seem to be a staple of DHS since its inception and you just have a recipe for disaster.

cpursley 13y ago

This is another good case of having a second passport as an American (or any place for that matter) for travel and (shtf) insurance purposes. "Distributed Nationality" if you will.

kintamanimatt 13y ago
What risks are you trying to protect against?
- tehwalrus 13y ago
  people being able to see your travel history. Go to places on one side of the argument with one passport, then the other with the other, they never need to know you went to both.
- cpursley 13y ago
  Political risk, business risk, etc. The same reason you don't invest everything in one stock, one skill-set, etc. Same reason you back up your database and use version control. Distributed systems is all the rage now. It makes sense on all levels of life.
walshemj 13y ago
Useful if you want to visit Israel and Arab countrys and both Greece and Turkey. My college at an arab civil engineers aid that the FO was normaly quite understanding about this.
superuser2 13y ago
The State Department will sometimes grant a second passport if you can prove you need it - like if one of your visa stamps is known to get people killed in your new destination country.
- cpursley 13y ago
  I mean second passport as in one issued by another nation state.

marvin 13y ago

I have no words. They won't even stop at looking through your files on a groundless suspicion - they'll clone your harddrive? With your naked pictures of your girlfriend, diary, company secrets and everything? And I'm a "rights-free person" (a foreigner). If they do this stuff to citizens, I can't even imagine what sort of authority they have over foreigners. You guys really need to rein in your government, this is getting insane.

hyperventilator 13y ago
Is it not the same elswhere? It is at least in the UK, what about the rest of Europe?
auctiontheory 13y ago
Canada does this too. [http://tynan.com/ohcanada http://tynan.com/ohcanada] Probably every country with the technological capability does this when they feel like it. You have no rights at an international border. And if you're non-white, you have even fewer rights.

CitizenKane 13y ago

To be honest, this isn't so hard to do. I went to Kazakhstan to visit a college friend once and got placed on the watch list for the two years after that. Apparently visiting a country with stan in the name, regardless of purpose, is cause for suspicion. I'm a little surprised they bothered to copy the hard drives. Usually they just do a full search down and then they want you to be gone as soon as possible. It makes me sad, but I'm unsure as to what to do about it. I'd generally suggest removing the hard drive from the computer, but that's becoming more difficult to do. You can use full drive encryption, but then if they want they might just confiscate the whole computer. Beyond that, at this point that unless your paranoid your communications can be monitored with ease.

kseistrup 13y ago

US, land of the free…

graup 13y ago

> The pictures of your kids taking a bath maybe interpreted in a different way by immigration officers Reminds me of a story just like that. The only source I can find now: http://www.muripo.com/2013/06/07/elderly-man-arrested-for-possession-of-photos-of-children-playing-with-water/ http://www.muripo.com/2013/06/07/elderly-man-arrested-for-po... but I'm sure quite it was on HN.

morgante 13y ago

Unfortunate story, but also very different than my experience with US border control. As someone who travels outside the US many times a year, including to somewhat odd places (last year has included Sudan, United Arab Emirates, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Malaysia, Ukraine), I've never had a single problem or spent more than a minute talking to anyone from customs or immigration. Of course, the TSA is another story.

gnu8 13y ago

It's odd that we still "stamp" passports, allowing border guards to see what countries you have visited in the past. This information should not be available to any authorities by any means, but especially not appended to your identity documents. Afaik, only Israel has a correct policy on this.

kyllo 13y ago
A passport was not originally intended to be an identity document, only a travel document. But the US doesn't have any official identity document, so the passport gets de facto used as one. This is unfortunate for a number of reasons.

jwr 13y ago

As a dual-citizen I still find it mind-boggling that a US border guard asks me questions about my private life. It still isn't clear to me what can happen if I answer "wrong" (e.g. the answers do not meet his expectations). For comparison, in many (if not most) countries (I don't want to name my specific case because this could derail the discussino) a border guard presented with a passport issued by his own country has exactly two options: 1) arrest the person on the spot (arrest meaning what it should, e.g. call the police and follow the law) or 2) let the person in. There are no questions, because the border guard has zero discretion in letting the person in. In general, a citizen of any country should always be able to enter that country, no questions asked (with the possibility of being arrested right afterwards, of course). I find it both strange and disturbing that this gray area seems to be universally accepted and that outrage (like in the article above) is rare.

twoodfin 13y ago
This is a type of "behavioral profiling". They take you on a random walk down a conversation tree, and unless you're a very good liar, it will be difficult for you to answer the questions without delays, inconsistencies or other signs of prevarication. It's a common claim around here that airport security is mostly theater and that El Al does it right. But El Al uses behavioral profiling, and as you point out, that can seem as intrusive as any scan.
- theycallmemorty 13y ago
  > it will be difficult for you to answer the questions without delays, inconsistencies or other signs of prevarication. What if I'm a little absent minded and I already have a hard time answering without delays and inconsistencies?
  - twoodfin 13y ago
    Are you arguing that behavioral profiling is useless or that it's not perfect? The classification technique goes beyond just watching how fast you answer: It's a skill that takes training and practice, but can be extremely effective, which is why the Israelis and U.S. ICE use it.

dr_ 13y ago

Few articles on here lately regarding government "security" operations and the TSA. I can sympathize with these people, however most of the issues I have personally encountered have been outside the US, not while leaving the States or upon arrival. I've recently signed up for Global Entry, which is worth it I think, if you're concerned about any of these things. You are pre-screened in advance, and pretty much not bothered with immigration beyond that when you leave or arrive (note: TSA screenings still apply, unless you are a candidate for TSA pre check which, I believe, only applies to domestic flights as of now).

lukeschlather 13y ago

Honestly, this is refreshing. The US does not have a serious terrorism problem, so the massive amount of border searches are very trouble. We're giving up a lot of freedom to solve a problem that we don't really have. On the other hand, we do have a pretty serious human trafficking problem, so I'm glad to see someone taking it seriously.

MFR1965 13y ago

You are a mean person. Even if the ends justify these particular means, as you suggest (and I don't even think you've got the cause and effect right here), insulting and demeaning someone far less privileged than you was immoral.