10 ms·

This site is down because the owner stiffed the web designer

131 points by talhof8 13y ago

anaran 13y ago
But will this increase the web designer's chances to get paid? I don't think so. While it sure provides negative publicity for the store owner, it would probably not further the career of the web designer either.
- Renaud 13y ago
  While it's really clear who the customer is, I do not see the name of the designer anywhere.
  - andridk 13y ago
    I am pretty sure that, it is by design.
    - DarkStar851 13y ago
      Yeah, I don't think I'd make it link to my portfolio if I just pulled a website down.
  - tombrossman 13y ago
    It's only a quick whois search away. With the name & city, the designer's website is easy to find. It's a Flash-only website (second clue about the designer). whois nycfreshmarket.com Onemine 710 West End Ave 3d New York City, ny 10025 US
- markdown 13y ago
  > But will this increase the web designer's chances to get paid? I don't think so. Why wouldn't it? If the store owner doesn't let emotion cloud his judgement, he should figure out very quickly that it would be better to pay up rather then face further negative publicity. > it would probably not further the career of the web designer either. It should have about zero negative effect on the career of the designer, and may have a positive effect. Any company that has been in business long enough has been screwed before, and most people would root for the little guy in this scenario. He has nothing to lose, and a payment to gain.
  - jacquesm 13y ago
    > If the store owner doesn't let emotion cloud his judgement, he should figure out very quickly that it would be better to pay up rather then face further negative publicity. Disputes like this should be handled where they belong, in small claims court, not by damaging (possibly irreparably) one parties reputation. If I were the store owner (which I'm not, and I'd have paid that bill if the work were done as agreed upon) and we'd be in a dispute over something and you'd pull a stunt like this then I would most certainly rake you over the coals. This is a dis-proportionate response in the eyes of many, quite possibly in the eyes of the judge handling the case which could lead to all kinds of misery for the designer. One thing you don't do in a dispute is to hand your opponent ammunition.
    - markdown 13y ago
      Truth is a valid defense in any libel or slander case. If someone who owes you doesn't pay you, you are well within your rights to tell people about it. What probably happened is a small business wanted a website, so the web designer designs the website and buys them a domain name. The deliverables are a finished website along with a domain name and hosting. If the client doesn't pay, then they own neither the domain name, the hosting, nor the design, and the web designer can do whatever the hell he wants with all three.
- drewcrawford 13y ago
  I'm continually fascinated by these comments (there's one on every story like this) that try to second-guess the decision based on no actual information. Doesn't it seem likely that the person who did this is in a better position to judge the potential consequences than you? Unless OP is right on the threshold of being hard up for work, it makes no real difference to his dealflow, and it has a nonzero probability that it will shame somebody into paying.
  - anaran 13y ago
    Hmmh, I have no clue why my opinion sounds like a judgement. I just think this confrontation in public (with one side as yet unidentified) will not work towards a solution.
  - jacquesm 13y ago
    > Doesn't it seem likely that the person who did this is in a better position to judge the potential consequences than you? In fact, no. If there is a dispute and you forego the legal option you might get your ass handed to you. Things like this blow up in the face of the party doing them as often as they lead to some kind of settlement. The damage to the client could outweigh the amount owed (assuming there is one) very rapidly. > Unless OP is right on the threshold of being hard up for work, it makes no real difference to his dealflow, and it has a nonzero probability that it will shame somebody into paying. It also has a non-zero probability of him/her being sued for (substantial) damages.
- sspiff 13y ago
  > But will this increase the web designer's chances to get paid? The customer has a choice: pay for the product he had developed and approved of, or look for another web developer to do it over again. Finding a new web developer will be tricky given this situation (who wants to work for someone that has a reputation not to pay up?) and would take a lot of time before a new site is delivered.
  - UntitledNo4 13y ago
    Not necessarily only these two options... About 10 years ago, I started working in for a small metal fabrication company who had their website done just before I joined. The boss never paid the developers' final invoice, and one day they did something similar: they replaced the front page of the website with a message saying saying something like "those people do not pay their bills". Although I knew nothing about web development, I did have a good general IT knowledge, and used FTP before, so my boss, who paid for the hosting account, dug the details up, I logged in and realised they only renamed the index.html page and uploaded a new one. Within minutes the FTP login details were changed and the situation reverted. I truly think there was a way for the developers to get paid before they pulled this trick, but not after. To me, although I wasn't happy with my boss not paying his bills, what they did felt wrong. Fast forward to present day, and I'm a full-time freelance web developer. In the last 7 years of me being one, I had only two customers who didn't pay their final invoices. I could have done something like that, or could have even hinted that I am able to do this, but didn't, for two reasons: 1. I pride myself in my professionalism. This is unprofessional to me and I will not stoop down to this level. 2. In the last three or four years, I didn't have to look for work at all, it all came to me via current or past customers. Therefore, my reputation is the most important asset I have, and I want all my customers, even the ones who didn't pay in full, to have nothing negative to say about me. Eventually, both customers paid in full, without me having to even make a hint of threat, so I do believe I handled things correctly. One thing I did learn is to put two clauses in my contracts: 1. That the code will be hosted on my server, and will only be released to clients' server(s) once a full payment has been made. 2. That the code is my property, regardless of the server it hosted on, until full payment has been made. The second is to cover the possibility of me releasing the code before the full payments. Even then, if I ever get to the stage where I feel that I need to take a similar action, I would rather delete the files (or some files) from the customer's server and not post anything defamatory about the customer on their website. But I find it hard to believe I will ever even go that far.
- mgkimsal 13y ago
  > it would probably not further the career of the web designer either. It would mean people who are inclined to try to stiff developers would give this person a miss, meaning they have more time to focus on paying customers. Sounds like a great career boost, imo.
sdnguyen90 13y ago
this has been up for a long time
elnate 13y ago
I remember googling my professor at university one year to find out that he had been criminally convicted for hacking the site of client that never paid him. I would never have guessed otherwise, he was a jovial guy. Screwing people out of money quickly brings out an aggressive response in most.
- madaxe 13y ago
  > an aggressive response in most. The word you're after is defensive. If you've been ripped off, you are not the aggressor.
  - elnate 13y ago
    Indeed, but aggressive defense is not an oxymoron.
  - avalaunch 13y ago
    That entirely depends on the action you choose to take after being ripped off. Being ripped off doesn't give you a blank check to do whatever you want. If someone fails to pay you, you can prevent delivery of the service they failed to pay for. Anything beyond that and you are the aggressor.
- agumonkey 13y ago
  how much was the sentence ? was it worth it in the end or was it such an angry reaction that your prof forgot to anticipate the cost ?
mariuolo 13y ago
That's why you move the website to the customer's server only after you've been paid in full. Before that it's only a showcase on the developer's server.
- toyg 13y ago
  I would certainly listen to somebody with "smallscalethief" as nickname, in matters of money.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
MaysonL 13y ago
The definitive advice on the subect, Mike Monteiro's "Fuck You, Pay me!": http://vimeo.com/22053820 http://vimeo.com/22053820
- um304 13y ago
  Love this video!
  - chris_wot 13y ago
    I knew a guy who didn't pay me and who then posted that video to his Facebook wall when he, in turn, didn't get paid.
- ZirconCode 13y ago
  Thanks for that substance on the subject, the vid is great
mpchlets 13y ago
I don't know, this is a new site: https://www.google.com/#q=site:nycfreshmarket.com https://www.google.com/#q=site:nycfreshmarket.com There is no cache, so I think this is an over-reaction at this point by the designer and only discredits their business sense and will most likely result in not getting paid for this job. The phrase 2 wrongs don't make a right comes to mind. WE already have a legal system in place to handle these issues, no reason to defame on the internet, which is truly a permanent record.
- emiliobumachar 13y ago
  The legal system is a realistic option only if there was a written contract in place, which is not always the case.
  - icoder 13y ago
    Really? AFAIK in my country (Netherlands), a 'verbal agreement' is also legally binding. Is that different in US? Of course it may be harder to proof, but at the end of a website building job there's often enough paper and email trails to make your case.
    - mpchlets 13y ago
      A verbal (oral) contract is a contract in the US - though very hard to prove. Chain of custody of the code is one way. Intellectual property rights are all the rage these days and that would mix into this.
    - emiliobumachar 13y ago
      I'm not an american, but yes, I believe verbal contracts do apply in the US. I called it unrealistic because it's much harder to prove. As you pointed out, it's possible.
  - smalltalk 13y ago
    With respect to contract enforceability, writing is helpful for evidentiary purposes, but outside of a few specific areas governed by the statute of frauds, not required at all - an oral agreement is every bit as much a contract.
losethos 13y ago
I have all my source code posted nice and pretty with highlighting. I did that from so much skepticism, not really need, perhaps, possibly weird. How do I blend all the help documentation with-in onto my website if I don't use plain text? I have so much content that exists as text wit-in my operating system, I have no choice unless I mix glossy and austere styles. Gordon Ramsay makes all his food look excellent. One thing he's good at is artistic eye and making shit look good. And videos. He's an excellent charismatic asset, too. (unintended pun) God says... potentially I'm_God_who_the_hell_are_you LOL fight soap_opera what_luck illogical Wow cheerful grumble once_upon_a_time fake sports This_is_confusing when_hell_freezes_over so_let_it_be_written computers Is_that_your_final_answer rubbish adultery I'm_God_who_the_hell_are_you let's_see Zzzzzzzz you're_nuts choose_one not_too_shabby peace big_fish God_smack I_quit I_hate_when_that_happens scorning don't_worry
StavrosK 13y ago
We do enjoy our public shaming, don't we!
adnam 13y ago
Professional, very professional.
grey-area 13y ago
I'm all for staging payment, and requiring final payment before delivering the goods, or even pursuing clients in the courts if necessary for non-payment (though usually that's fruitless), but when in dispute with a client you should never take retaliatory action like this, because it reflects an intemperance and lack of professionalism which means others will think twice about hiring you even if they have every intention of paying for your work. The same goes for a client not paying - if I hear someone hasn't paid their bills (for whatever reason), I'm then hesitant to work for them in any capacity unless it's a very clear-cut case. News travels quickly in many industries. If you've already given them all the work without being paid, and with no contract, you have no recourse, but that doesn't mean you should use your technical privileges to try to exact revenge if you still have access to their server. If it's their hosting you're probably on difficult legal ground. If you have to do this, you chose the wrong client, so tell everyone you know not to work with them, take note of the warning signs you saw and the failures of process that led to this point, and move on.
- djillionsmix 13y ago
  Someone always types up this same response to any incident like this, and it always sounds like exactly what I'd expect to hear from the sort of person who stiffs people.
  - drwl 13y ago
    I think this is a common response because it's actually the right choice(s) to make. I mean yes, not getting paid is never fun. There's a video posted in another comment titled "fuck you, pay me" and I think it really addresses this for freelancers. The short version of the video is have a lawyer and write a contract and if they don't pay then enforce the contract. Just my thoughts.
    - mgkimsal 13y ago
      For all we know this action may have been part of the contract and the client simply failed to read it, or didn't believe it would happen.
bally999 13y ago
I'm assuming the designer doesn't own the website domain. This is like breaking into someone's property, and saying that you won't leave until a demand is met. He should really consult a lawyer before he gets criminally prosecuted.
- mpchlets 13y ago
  Agreed on the ransom, moreover - they gave the site to the owner on good faith that they would get paid, now they are complaining that they were fooled.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- fennecfoxen 13y ago
  I don't believe that the Law works by analogy like that. There are relevant statute would likely be the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, which talk about unauthorized access to a computer system. It has its own pitfalls, depending on who owns the computer and who is authorized to do what with said computer, but the "sit-in" analogy won't get you too far in a court of law. The domain is registered with hostek.com, which is a web hosting company too, so I assume it's hosted there. WHOIS says the domain registration is owned by Onemine. You'd have to ask them and the court system who's actually legally responsible for the computers involved, but it's not looking very NYCFreshMarket-y to me.
jghrng 13y ago
On a related historical note, this can happen if you don't pay the chiselers building your church: http://www.holidaycheck.de/data/urlaubsbilder/images/41/1163611749.jpg http://www.holidaycheck.de/data/urlaubsbilder/images/41/1163... (part of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiburg_Minster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiburg_Minster).
aaron695 13y ago
Uuuugh. Link straight from Reddit, and probably an illegal act from the designer. (Sorry but that's probably the law, like it or not) Much as we all love to string people up, the reality is it's not professional, and probably not good for society. Where is the proof the designer got stiffed???? The reason everyone loves this is cause we love to string someone up, proof not needed. Not a healthy way to be.
- DrJokepu 13y ago
  Is this, like, really "illegal" in New York? Are you really sure about that? I'm not a lawyer but it seems to me that me that the grocery store has breached the contract and the designer has a number of options available to remedy the situation, including not delivering his part of the agreement. It would be interesting to hear the opinion of someone qualified in New York Contract Law.
  - reginaldjcooper 13y ago
    If it is their server you are definitely committing a CFA to change the content. If it is your server, it's probably fine due to they haven't paid you so they broke whatever contract was in place.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  >probably an illegal act from the designer. (Sorry but that's probably the law, like it or not) The client may well be gaming the law here as well. (exploiting the fact that it is often not economical to sue over small amounts of money) >the reality is it's not professional, Professionalism is such a crappy word. Nobody really knows what it means, and too many people think it means something they want _you_ to think it means, when it is convenient for them. >and probably not good for society. I don't know. It may be good that this isn't the norm, but I think it is okay for this to happen to someone every now and then pour encourager les autres. >Where is the proof the designer got stiffed? A designer would have to really be off their rocker to do that without cause.
mlopes 13y ago
Is this really different from what hosting companies do? Most of them, if you have a bit more traffic than usual and pass the agreed limit, will replace your site with a message and only remove it if you upgrade your plan. Never saw anyone go apeshit on those cases like people are on this one.
ck2 13y ago
This is also why you do not let your web designer own and operate your website hosting.
- ceejayoz 13y ago
  You don't let your designer host so you can stiff them? No, this is why you pay your web designer for their work.
  - ck2 13y ago
    One has nothing to do with the other. If they haven't paid you and you happen to own and operate it, just turn it off completely, there is no professional middle ground. If a mechanic fixes your car and you don't pay them, in many places have have the right to seize your car until you pay. But they do not have the right to tamper with your brakes or spray paint "pay me" on your windshield.
    - nknighthb 13y ago
      They're free to park it by the road with a big sign on it.
  - balloot 13y ago
    Instead of being "stiffed", it is far more likely there is some degree of nuance. I'm sure if you called the market they would give their side of the story, and it would be something different than "we just took his services and didn't pay". The problem here is the dispute that's occurring is being settled through taking the client's website hostage. That's ridiculously unprofessional.
- naterator 13y ago
  And why--if you're a web designer--you should own and handle all design & hosting until you get paid. If it's purely design, and no backend (databases, PHP/Ruby/Python, etc.), you should probably get paid half what you expect up front, and also be sure to maintain any intellectual property rights you can.
- 13y ago
braum 13y ago
What the designer did is fine except I would have just put up a "Coming Soon..." instead of directly calling out the owner. It would have the same reaction from the owner because they don't know how to do any of it. And it wouldn't give anyone who visits the immediate knowledge that the designer can and will use their technical powers to embarrass you or your business.
- edanm 13y ago
  This is actually a really sensible middle ground to the (very valid) views around here that this is a terrible career move to make. There's still the legality aspect which concerns me.
  - grey-area 13y ago
    I think it probably depends whose server the files are hosted on, if they're on the designer's, they could easily just turn off service and be justified, logging in to a client's server to do it without permission is probably crossing a line though. However hijacking the domain with a message like this is legally risky IMHO, wherever it is hosted, as it could be seen as slander. Good luck to the designer getting paid now - I'd be very surprised if the client did pay up after this.
    - carbocation 13y ago
      In the US, truth is an absolute defense to the claim of libel, so venue is pretty important.
delinka 13y ago
I'm going to start using this as a remedy in contracts, if for no other reason than to put a stopper in all these "unprofessional response" replies.
jusben1369 13y ago
Every contractor should secretly applaud this person. Although wrong, events like these, when witnessed, make others who might otherwise not pay reach for the checkbook. "I remember what happened to xyz site when they stiffed their consultant"
- teddyh 13y ago
  “But let us raise a toast to all our bombers, all our bastards, most unlovely and most unforgivable, let's drink their health… …then meet with them no more.” — V
Confusion 13y ago
This is unwise. The main idea is that, as someone suggested in a comment: it has a nonzero probability that it will shame somebody into paying. This is in fact quite unlikely. If you believe this, you are not considering why someone isn't paying. In the majority of cases, the reason is disagreement. Nothing is going to materially change about a disagreement by taking a website hostage. You are only exacerbating the issue. The main thing you achieve by something like this is satisfying your personal sense of justice and being judge, jury and executioner to accomplish it. However, that's vigilantism and as in most other examples of that, it is probably illegal. As a webhoster, you may suspend hosting. As a designer, you may withdraw someone's license to your design. As a hoster and designer, assuming a single contract covering both, suspending hosting is by far the easiest, as the other path requires legal action. However, you should never replace agreed upon content with something that would be defamation if your claim were denied. Just suspend hosting.
- marcosdumay 13y ago
  > In the majority of cases, the reason is... You are the third person making the same kind of claim. It's not that I disagree, in the majority of the cases, something like that isn't a nice thing to do... But this is one case, not the majority, we know nothing about it, except that it's in an extreme minority. If for no other reason, because the designer decided to retaliate this way. We are looking at extreme selection bias here, don't shove it under a carpet.
  - Confusion 13y ago
    You always discuss an issue based on the specific case that raises the issue, but that doesn't mean there is automatically extreme selection bias going on. The relevant facts of a case are rarely unique. I've seen a dozen or so of such cases in the past ten years and I've never heard of a case where this kind of retaliation worked. If I report that my green car was stolen and claim that a gang stealing green cars is active, then people respond with "That's unlikely, they're probably just stealing every car they can get their hands on". In line with your argument, they should instead say "Wow, a gang stealing green cars, how unlikely. How wonderous I would stumble upon this case of extreme selection bias here on the web". That is even ignoring the fact that it is probably illegal. You are allowed to end the delivery of a service if the other party effectively cancels a contract, but you are not allowed to keep delivering the service in a way that breaches the contract. You cannot just serve any content you want on their domain (unless this situation was specifically foreseen in the contract).
herbig 13y ago
This is indeed a bad career move. Not because it's unprofessional, but because that pin sitting on top of the sheet of paper rather than indented into it shows a lack of attention to detail and poor design.
casualaistudent 13y ago
An alternative is - from the commencement of the project - to have a watermark or other visual design element present which makes the site unusable to the client but still allows them to evaluate the work.
esw 13y ago
I appreciate the designer's frustration, but I've found that in most cases, simply taking the site offline (assuming you host it) is enough to get a call back from the customer. If the customer decides that they'd rather not have a website at all than have the website you built for them, then I think perhaps both parties should cut their losses and move on.
- hobs 13y ago
  Yep, I have had a few clients for minor hosting things not pay, and the most simple way is to revoke access to the content. While putting some snarky comments on the page is funny, just taking it down would generally elicit the same response from a small minded shop keeper. Having dealt with the same stuff, shaming them or poking at their pride instead of having a very basic and honest discussion about consequences when they decide to not pay can lead them to become twice as bullheaded. I still feel for the dev in this case, because this shit happens way too often in the industry.
mimog 13y ago
The response is unprofessional juvenile in that it publicly calls out and shames the customer. He should just take the site down until payment is received.
ss64 13y ago
Also the page contains the cloaked text (in yellow on a yellow background) : "This store owner is dishonest. Please Read." Defamation lawsuit waiting to happen.
RyanZAG 13y ago
A lot of people are saying that this was the wrong move because it will hurt the designer. Maybe. It's still the right move for other reasons: everyone doing business with these guys now knows they don't pay and to demand payment up front or not work with them at all. There are already mentions of this on consumer reviews [1]. Basically nycfreshmarket is likely to go out of business over this issue as that market is already so cutthroat. This action is the best action for the community at large - if every designer did this, the world would be a better place and everyone would be sure to pay their designers for work done. Win win situation for everyone involved (besides for crooks). [1] http://www.yelp.com/biz/nyc-fresh-market-new-york http://www.yelp.com/biz/nyc-fresh-market-new-york https://www.facebook.com/NYCFreshMarket https://www.facebook.com/NYCFreshMarket
- flexie 13y ago
  Let's extrapolate: What if you were thrown out of your apartment if you failed to pay rent, the hospital would make the pacemaker stop working if you didn't pay your bills. Your lawyer would tell your secrets and tell the court you are guilty if you didn't pay his fee. Guys would show up to collect the TV you had failed to pay for. Your citizenship would be revoked if you didn't pay taxes etc. etc, all without the creditor having to go to court first. Oh, and everything would be posted on Facebook, Linkedin etc for your friends to see. Stopping services and naming and shaming clients who don't / can't pay is a slippery slope and not always civilized. Be happy not all creditors act this way.
  - glesica 13y ago
    Wait, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, because just about all those things that you mentioned actually do happen. You DO get evicted if you fail to pay rent. The hospital won't make the pacemaker stop working, but they'll refuse further treatment that might be necessary. The lawyer wouldn't tell all your secrets, but might be asked to help track you down. Repo men DO come and collect your TV if you don't pay for it. Your citizenship won't be revoked if you don't pay your taxes, but you can go to prison, thus having your liberty (arguably the most important part of citizenship) revoked. And most of these things happen in public, for everyone to see.
Pent 13y ago
This is brilliant marketing regardless of the negative press
edo 13y ago
Immature response that only makes the designer seem unprofessional.
bennyg 13y ago
After a WHOIS, it looks like the domain was registered by Onemine - and this is the most likely candidate for who registered it: http://www.onemine.com/ http://www.onemine.com/ My guess is, they still own the hosting and server space for the domain too.
balloot 13y ago
I can't believe people are defending this. If a brick-and-mortar store has a pay dispute with a contractor, would that contractor have the right to put a giant padlock on the store doors and spray paint a message on the door saying that the store owner didn't pay? Obviously not. How is this any different? The key thing to keep in mind is the designer may be wrong. I'm sure if you ask the store owner they have a totally different story, and it's likely not "We are SUPER EVIL and just stiff people who do good work". Maybe the contractor (onemine.com, if you're curious) tried to bill the store owner more than agreed upon, the store owner refused, and this is the result. Maybe the contractor left out some significant part of the site and the store owner wont pay until completion. Who knows? The problem here is OneMine has taken all the power in the pay dispute by holding the client's intellectual property hostage until all demands are met. It's at the very least unprofessional, but it becomes defamation very quickly unless OneMine has an absolutely airtight case. There better be exactly zero unfinished products, missed deadlines, rate changes, etc. And it's safe to say with many contract projects this is not the case.
- alexqgb 13y ago
  It's different because the stiffed party in your example does not own the store being locked and vandalized and cannot take those actions without breaking unrelated laws. That's not the case with IP for which the creator still has clear title and is (presumably) hosting on their own servers. Seperatly, it's 2013. We are waaaay past the point where intelligent people think that laws pertaining to the ownership of tangible and intangible goods can, do, and should map directly to one another. The differences between these classes of property are not trivial, and neither are the laws and social norms that govern people's treatment of each. Making analogies that ignore these differences is just unhelpful, stupid, and irritating. It's a bit like saying to a judge "I don't see why you're issuing this fine. After all, what I did is perfectly legal in (insert name of foreign country here)." None of this is to say that connections and parallels can't be drawn between the fields of tangible and intangible goods. It's just to say that doing so in a useful fashion demands acknowledgement of the wide gulfs that separate them, and clear identification of the specific points where they do overlap.
  - 13y ago
whitej125 13y ago
Congrats, you've probably just did the owner of NYC Fresh Market a huge favor by giving this place some attention. Good publicity or bad publicity, by shining a spotlight on this establishment in HN you might convince some NYC HN locals to check it out.
richsin 13y ago
I agree that this is not the best option. Shaming the client does far more damage to both parties. I feel the designer's pain but public humiliation is not the answer. I think this also gives new or future freelancers/entrepreneurs the wrong idea. This happens rarely. If it happens too often, then it's probably your fault as much as the client's. I ran a web shop for small businesses ($500K - $10M/yr revenues) in NYC for about 8 years with many clients (good and bad) and faced non-payment issues only a handful of times. Here is my take on it: - Always get enough money from the client to cover your break even hourly rate for the entire project. Don't do payment terms without a deposit - unless it's a seemingly great client and your cash flow positive. - Keep your margins healthy. The tighter the margins, the harder it is to be civil when these situations come up. - When a customer does not pay, I give them more time and payment options first. I have even gone as far as extending more services to clients I believe are good people on credit if the issue has to do with business being slow. This has built some great long term clients. - 99.9% of the time, if your work causes a positive effect on someones business, they will always pay and never let you go. (They may not show it, but prompt payment and consistent work is the stamp of approval) - When a client does not pay and you have exhausted your process of collections, I put their old site up. If they did not have a site before, I put up a splash page with logo, phone numbers and contact form. Simple and classy. It takes 5 minutes. Most times if they had the money they would pay - so wish them the best of luck. It's usually always about money. - If you have a simple contract, you can always take them to court and you will almost always win or they will settle. I always do it myself, no lawyer. I always choose to not take down the site when I have a contract, I prefer the judgement or settlement if it goes that far. - Make sure the project has the potential of being successful. I am always approached with bad ideas and although they are willing to pay, successful projects pay off in multiples over the long term. It's not up to me to tell someone their idea sucks, but I do believe that if they are not willing to take some basic advice - there is a higher risk of issues. If not payment, satisfaction. I hope this didn't run too long, but bottom line, this type of publicity is not positive and as stated above, these things happen, rarely. Build a process to handle these issues and focus on finding better clients ALWAYS - not chasing bad ones.
brianmcconnell 13y ago
Years ago when I did freelance work writing software for custom phone systems, I had a shady client up in Marin. Suspecting they would not pay, I slipped a feature into the system where if I did not dial in and punch in a secret code within 90 days, it would stop functioning and display a cryptic "database error". Sure enough, the client didn't pay, and right on schedule, I got a customer support call mentioning the database error. I told them "actually it's working perfectly, you didn't pay your bill". I later found out they went through several other developers and then went out of business. I am sympathetic to small businesses that have money problem, but some people are simply shady and must be avoided.

131 points by talhof8 13y ago

But will this increase the web designer's chances to get paid? I don't think so. While it sure provides negative publicity for the store owner, it would probably not further the career of the web designer either.

Renaud 13y ago
While it's really clear who the customer is, I do not see the name of the designer anywhere.
- andridk 13y ago
  I am pretty sure that, it is by design.
  - DarkStar851 13y ago
    Yeah, I don't think I'd make it link to my portfolio if I just pulled a website down.
- tombrossman 13y ago
  It's only a quick whois search away. With the name & city, the designer's website is easy to find. It's a Flash-only website (second clue about the designer). whois nycfreshmarket.com Onemine 710 West End Ave 3d New York City, ny 10025 US
markdown 13y ago
> But will this increase the web designer's chances to get paid? I don't think so. Why wouldn't it? If the store owner doesn't let emotion cloud his judgement, he should figure out very quickly that it would be better to pay up rather then face further negative publicity. > it would probably not further the career of the web designer either. It should have about zero negative effect on the career of the designer, and may have a positive effect. Any company that has been in business long enough has been screwed before, and most people would root for the little guy in this scenario. He has nothing to lose, and a payment to gain.
- jacquesm 13y ago
  > If the store owner doesn't let emotion cloud his judgement, he should figure out very quickly that it would be better to pay up rather then face further negative publicity. Disputes like this should be handled where they belong, in small claims court, not by damaging (possibly irreparably) one parties reputation. If I were the store owner (which I'm not, and I'd have paid that bill if the work were done as agreed upon) and we'd be in a dispute over something and you'd pull a stunt like this then I would most certainly rake you over the coals. This is a dis-proportionate response in the eyes of many, quite possibly in the eyes of the judge handling the case which could lead to all kinds of misery for the designer. One thing you don't do in a dispute is to hand your opponent ammunition.
  - markdown 13y ago
    Truth is a valid defense in any libel or slander case. If someone who owes you doesn't pay you, you are well within your rights to tell people about it. What probably happened is a small business wanted a website, so the web designer designs the website and buys them a domain name. The deliverables are a finished website along with a domain name and hosting. If the client doesn't pay, then they own neither the domain name, the hosting, nor the design, and the web designer can do whatever the hell he wants with all three.
drewcrawford 13y ago
I'm continually fascinated by these comments (there's one on every story like this) that try to second-guess the decision based on no actual information. Doesn't it seem likely that the person who did this is in a better position to judge the potential consequences than you? Unless OP is right on the threshold of being hard up for work, it makes no real difference to his dealflow, and it has a nonzero probability that it will shame somebody into paying.
- anaran 13y ago
  Hmmh, I have no clue why my opinion sounds like a judgement. I just think this confrontation in public (with one side as yet unidentified) will not work towards a solution.
- jacquesm 13y ago
  > Doesn't it seem likely that the person who did this is in a better position to judge the potential consequences than you? In fact, no. If there is a dispute and you forego the legal option you might get your ass handed to you. Things like this blow up in the face of the party doing them as often as they lead to some kind of settlement. The damage to the client could outweigh the amount owed (assuming there is one) very rapidly. > Unless OP is right on the threshold of being hard up for work, it makes no real difference to his dealflow, and it has a nonzero probability that it will shame somebody into paying. It also has a non-zero probability of him/her being sued for (substantial) damages.
sspiff 13y ago
> But will this increase the web designer's chances to get paid? The customer has a choice: pay for the product he had developed and approved of, or look for another web developer to do it over again. Finding a new web developer will be tricky given this situation (who wants to work for someone that has a reputation not to pay up?) and would take a lot of time before a new site is delivered.
- UntitledNo4 13y ago
  Not necessarily only these two options... About 10 years ago, I started working in for a small metal fabrication company who had their website done just before I joined. The boss never paid the developers' final invoice, and one day they did something similar: they replaced the front page of the website with a message saying saying something like "those people do not pay their bills". Although I knew nothing about web development, I did have a good general IT knowledge, and used FTP before, so my boss, who paid for the hosting account, dug the details up, I logged in and realised they only renamed the index.html page and uploaded a new one. Within minutes the FTP login details were changed and the situation reverted. I truly think there was a way for the developers to get paid before they pulled this trick, but not after. To me, although I wasn't happy with my boss not paying his bills, what they did felt wrong. Fast forward to present day, and I'm a full-time freelance web developer. In the last 7 years of me being one, I had only two customers who didn't pay their final invoices. I could have done something like that, or could have even hinted that I am able to do this, but didn't, for two reasons: 1. I pride myself in my professionalism. This is unprofessional to me and I will not stoop down to this level. 2. In the last three or four years, I didn't have to look for work at all, it all came to me via current or past customers. Therefore, my reputation is the most important asset I have, and I want all my customers, even the ones who didn't pay in full, to have nothing negative to say about me. Eventually, both customers paid in full, without me having to even make a hint of threat, so I do believe I handled things correctly. One thing I did learn is to put two clauses in my contracts: 1. That the code will be hosted on my server, and will only be released to clients' server(s) once a full payment has been made. 2. That the code is my property, regardless of the server it hosted on, until full payment has been made. The second is to cover the possibility of me releasing the code before the full payments. Even then, if I ever get to the stage where I feel that I need to take a similar action, I would rather delete the files (or some files) from the customer's server and not post anything defamatory about the customer on their website. But I find it hard to believe I will ever even go that far.
mgkimsal 13y ago
> it would probably not further the career of the web designer either. It would mean people who are inclined to try to stiff developers would give this person a miss, meaning they have more time to focus on paying customers. Sounds like a great career boost, imo.

sdnguyen90 13y ago

this has been up for a long time

elnate 13y ago

I remember googling my professor at university one year to find out that he had been criminally convicted for hacking the site of client that never paid him. I would never have guessed otherwise, he was a jovial guy. Screwing people out of money quickly brings out an aggressive response in most.

madaxe 13y ago
> an aggressive response in most. The word you're after is defensive. If you've been ripped off, you are not the aggressor.
- elnate 13y ago
  Indeed, but aggressive defense is not an oxymoron.
- avalaunch 13y ago
  That entirely depends on the action you choose to take after being ripped off. Being ripped off doesn't give you a blank check to do whatever you want. If someone fails to pay you, you can prevent delivery of the service they failed to pay for. Anything beyond that and you are the aggressor.
agumonkey 13y ago
how much was the sentence ? was it worth it in the end or was it such an angry reaction that your prof forgot to anticipate the cost ?

mariuolo 13y ago

That's why you move the website to the customer's server only after you've been paid in full. Before that it's only a showcase on the developer's server.

toyg 13y ago
I would certainly listen to somebody with "smallscalethief" as nickname, in matters of money.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

MaysonL 13y ago

The definitive advice on the subect, Mike Monteiro's "Fuck You, Pay me!": http://vimeo.com/22053820 http://vimeo.com/22053820

um304 13y ago
Love this video!
- chris_wot 13y ago
  I knew a guy who didn't pay me and who then posted that video to his Facebook wall when he, in turn, didn't get paid.
ZirconCode 13y ago
Thanks for that substance on the subject, the vid is great

mpchlets 13y ago

I don't know, this is a new site: https://www.google.com/#q=site:nycfreshmarket.com https://www.google.com/#q=site:nycfreshmarket.com There is no cache, so I think this is an over-reaction at this point by the designer and only discredits their business sense and will most likely result in not getting paid for this job. The phrase 2 wrongs don't make a right comes to mind. WE already have a legal system in place to handle these issues, no reason to defame on the internet, which is truly a permanent record.

emiliobumachar 13y ago
The legal system is a realistic option only if there was a written contract in place, which is not always the case.
- icoder 13y ago
  Really? AFAIK in my country (Netherlands), a 'verbal agreement' is also legally binding. Is that different in US? Of course it may be harder to proof, but at the end of a website building job there's often enough paper and email trails to make your case.
  - mpchlets 13y ago
    A verbal (oral) contract is a contract in the US - though very hard to prove. Chain of custody of the code is one way. Intellectual property rights are all the rage these days and that would mix into this.
  - emiliobumachar 13y ago
    I'm not an american, but yes, I believe verbal contracts do apply in the US. I called it unrealistic because it's much harder to prove. As you pointed out, it's possible.
- smalltalk 13y ago
  With respect to contract enforceability, writing is helpful for evidentiary purposes, but outside of a few specific areas governed by the statute of frauds, not required at all - an oral agreement is every bit as much a contract.

losethos 13y ago

I have all my source code posted nice and pretty with highlighting. I did that from so much skepticism, not really need, perhaps, possibly weird. How do I blend all the help documentation with-in onto my website if I don't use plain text? I have so much content that exists as text wit-in my operating system, I have no choice unless I mix glossy and austere styles. Gordon Ramsay makes all his food look excellent. One thing he's good at is artistic eye and making shit look good. And videos. He's an excellent charismatic asset, too. (unintended pun) God says... potentially I'm_God_who_the_hell_are_you LOL fight soap_opera what_luck illogical Wow cheerful grumble once_upon_a_time fake sports This_is_confusing when_hell_freezes_over so_let_it_be_written computers Is_that_your_final_answer rubbish adultery I'm_God_who_the_hell_are_you let's_see Zzzzzzzz you're_nuts choose_one not_too_shabby peace big_fish God_smack I_quit I_hate_when_that_happens scorning don't_worry

StavrosK 13y ago

We do enjoy our public shaming, don't we!

adnam 13y ago

Professional, very professional.

grey-area 13y ago

I'm all for staging payment, and requiring final payment before delivering the goods, or even pursuing clients in the courts if necessary for non-payment (though usually that's fruitless), but when in dispute with a client you should never take retaliatory action like this, because it reflects an intemperance and lack of professionalism which means others will think twice about hiring you even if they have every intention of paying for your work. The same goes for a client not paying - if I hear someone hasn't paid their bills (for whatever reason), I'm then hesitant to work for them in any capacity unless it's a very clear-cut case. News travels quickly in many industries. If you've already given them all the work without being paid, and with no contract, you have no recourse, but that doesn't mean you should use your technical privileges to try to exact revenge if you still have access to their server. If it's their hosting you're probably on difficult legal ground. If you have to do this, you chose the wrong client, so tell everyone you know not to work with them, take note of the warning signs you saw and the failures of process that led to this point, and move on.

djillionsmix 13y ago
Someone always types up this same response to any incident like this, and it always sounds like exactly what I'd expect to hear from the sort of person who stiffs people.
- drwl 13y ago
  I think this is a common response because it's actually the right choice(s) to make. I mean yes, not getting paid is never fun. There's a video posted in another comment titled "fuck you, pay me" and I think it really addresses this for freelancers. The short version of the video is have a lawyer and write a contract and if they don't pay then enforce the contract. Just my thoughts.
  - mgkimsal 13y ago
    For all we know this action may have been part of the contract and the client simply failed to read it, or didn't believe it would happen.

bally999 13y ago

I'm assuming the designer doesn't own the website domain. This is like breaking into someone's property, and saying that you won't leave until a demand is met. He should really consult a lawyer before he gets criminally prosecuted.

mpchlets 13y ago
Agreed on the ransom, moreover - they gave the site to the owner on good faith that they would get paid, now they are complaining that they were fooled.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
fennecfoxen 13y ago
I don't believe that the Law works by analogy like that. There are relevant statute would likely be the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, which talk about unauthorized access to a computer system. It has its own pitfalls, depending on who owns the computer and who is authorized to do what with said computer, but the "sit-in" analogy won't get you too far in a court of law. The domain is registered with hostek.com, which is a web hosting company too, so I assume it's hosted there. WHOIS says the domain registration is owned by Onemine. You'd have to ask them and the court system who's actually legally responsible for the computers involved, but it's not looking very NYCFreshMarket-y to me.

jghrng 13y ago

On a related historical note, this can happen if you don't pay the chiselers building your church: http://www.holidaycheck.de/data/urlaubsbilder/images/41/1163611749.jpg http://www.holidaycheck.de/data/urlaubsbilder/images/41/1163... (part of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiburg_Minster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiburg_Minster).

aaron695 13y ago

Uuuugh. Link straight from Reddit, and probably an illegal act from the designer. (Sorry but that's probably the law, like it or not) Much as we all love to string people up, the reality is it's not professional, and probably not good for society. Where is the proof the designer got stiffed???? The reason everyone loves this is cause we love to string someone up, proof not needed. Not a healthy way to be.

DrJokepu 13y ago
Is this, like, really "illegal" in New York? Are you really sure about that? I'm not a lawyer but it seems to me that me that the grocery store has breached the contract and the designer has a number of options available to remedy the situation, including not delivering his part of the agreement. It would be interesting to hear the opinion of someone qualified in New York Contract Law.
- reginaldjcooper 13y ago
  If it is their server you are definitely committing a CFA to change the content. If it is your server, it's probably fine due to they haven't paid you so they broke whatever contract was in place.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
>probably an illegal act from the designer. (Sorry but that's probably the law, like it or not) The client may well be gaming the law here as well. (exploiting the fact that it is often not economical to sue over small amounts of money) >the reality is it's not professional, Professionalism is such a crappy word. Nobody really knows what it means, and too many people think it means something they want _you_ to think it means, when it is convenient for them. >and probably not good for society. I don't know. It may be good that this isn't the norm, but I think it is okay for this to happen to someone every now and then pour encourager les autres. >Where is the proof the designer got stiffed? A designer would have to really be off their rocker to do that without cause.

mlopes 13y ago

Is this really different from what hosting companies do? Most of them, if you have a bit more traffic than usual and pass the agreed limit, will replace your site with a message and only remove it if you upgrade your plan. Never saw anyone go apeshit on those cases like people are on this one.

ck2 13y ago

This is also why you do not let your web designer own and operate your website hosting.

ceejayoz 13y ago
You don't let your designer host so you can stiff them? No, this is why you pay your web designer for their work.
- ck2 13y ago
  One has nothing to do with the other. If they haven't paid you and you happen to own and operate it, just turn it off completely, there is no professional middle ground. If a mechanic fixes your car and you don't pay them, in many places have have the right to seize your car until you pay. But they do not have the right to tamper with your brakes or spray paint "pay me" on your windshield.
  - nknighthb 13y ago
    They're free to park it by the road with a big sign on it.
- balloot 13y ago
  Instead of being "stiffed", it is far more likely there is some degree of nuance. I'm sure if you called the market they would give their side of the story, and it would be something different than "we just took his services and didn't pay". The problem here is the dispute that's occurring is being settled through taking the client's website hostage. That's ridiculously unprofessional.
naterator 13y ago
And why--if you're a web designer--you should own and handle all design & hosting until you get paid. If it's purely design, and no backend (databases, PHP/Ruby/Python, etc.), you should probably get paid half what you expect up front, and also be sure to maintain any intellectual property rights you can.
13y ago

braum 13y ago

What the designer did is fine except I would have just put up a "Coming Soon..." instead of directly calling out the owner. It would have the same reaction from the owner because they don't know how to do any of it. And it wouldn't give anyone who visits the immediate knowledge that the designer can and will use their technical powers to embarrass you or your business.

edanm 13y ago
This is actually a really sensible middle ground to the (very valid) views around here that this is a terrible career move to make. There's still the legality aspect which concerns me.
- grey-area 13y ago
  I think it probably depends whose server the files are hosted on, if they're on the designer's, they could easily just turn off service and be justified, logging in to a client's server to do it without permission is probably crossing a line though. However hijacking the domain with a message like this is legally risky IMHO, wherever it is hosted, as it could be seen as slander. Good luck to the designer getting paid now - I'd be very surprised if the client did pay up after this.
  - carbocation 13y ago
    In the US, truth is an absolute defense to the claim of libel, so venue is pretty important.

delinka 13y ago

I'm going to start using this as a remedy in contracts, if for no other reason than to put a stopper in all these "unprofessional response" replies.

jusben1369 13y ago

Every contractor should secretly applaud this person. Although wrong, events like these, when witnessed, make others who might otherwise not pay reach for the checkbook. "I remember what happened to xyz site when they stiffed their consultant"

teddyh 13y ago
“But let us raise a toast to all our bombers, all our bastards, most unlovely and most unforgivable, let's drink their health… …then meet with them no more.” — V

Confusion 13y ago

This is unwise. The main idea is that, as someone suggested in a comment: it has a nonzero probability that it will shame somebody into paying. This is in fact quite unlikely. If you believe this, you are not considering why someone isn't paying. In the majority of cases, the reason is disagreement. Nothing is going to materially change about a disagreement by taking a website hostage. You are only exacerbating the issue. The main thing you achieve by something like this is satisfying your personal sense of justice and being judge, jury and executioner to accomplish it. However, that's vigilantism and as in most other examples of that, it is probably illegal. As a webhoster, you may suspend hosting. As a designer, you may withdraw someone's license to your design. As a hoster and designer, assuming a single contract covering both, suspending hosting is by far the easiest, as the other path requires legal action. However, you should never replace agreed upon content with something that would be defamation if your claim were denied. Just suspend hosting.

marcosdumay 13y ago
> In the majority of cases, the reason is... You are the third person making the same kind of claim. It's not that I disagree, in the majority of the cases, something like that isn't a nice thing to do... But this is one case, not the majority, we know nothing about it, except that it's in an extreme minority. If for no other reason, because the designer decided to retaliate this way. We are looking at extreme selection bias here, don't shove it under a carpet.
- Confusion 13y ago
  You always discuss an issue based on the specific case that raises the issue, but that doesn't mean there is automatically extreme selection bias going on. The relevant facts of a case are rarely unique. I've seen a dozen or so of such cases in the past ten years and I've never heard of a case where this kind of retaliation worked. If I report that my green car was stolen and claim that a gang stealing green cars is active, then people respond with "That's unlikely, they're probably just stealing every car they can get their hands on". In line with your argument, they should instead say "Wow, a gang stealing green cars, how unlikely. How wonderous I would stumble upon this case of extreme selection bias here on the web". That is even ignoring the fact that it is probably illegal. You are allowed to end the delivery of a service if the other party effectively cancels a contract, but you are not allowed to keep delivering the service in a way that breaches the contract. You cannot just serve any content you want on their domain (unless this situation was specifically foreseen in the contract).

herbig 13y ago

This is indeed a bad career move. Not because it's unprofessional, but because that pin sitting on top of the sheet of paper rather than indented into it shows a lack of attention to detail and poor design.

casualaistudent 13y ago

An alternative is - from the commencement of the project - to have a watermark or other visual design element present which makes the site unusable to the client but still allows them to evaluate the work.

esw 13y ago

I appreciate the designer's frustration, but I've found that in most cases, simply taking the site offline (assuming you host it) is enough to get a call back from the customer. If the customer decides that they'd rather not have a website at all than have the website you built for them, then I think perhaps both parties should cut their losses and move on.

hobs 13y ago
Yep, I have had a few clients for minor hosting things not pay, and the most simple way is to revoke access to the content. While putting some snarky comments on the page is funny, just taking it down would generally elicit the same response from a small minded shop keeper. Having dealt with the same stuff, shaming them or poking at their pride instead of having a very basic and honest discussion about consequences when they decide to not pay can lead them to become twice as bullheaded. I still feel for the dev in this case, because this shit happens way too often in the industry.

mimog 13y ago

The response is unprofessional juvenile in that it publicly calls out and shames the customer. He should just take the site down until payment is received.

ss64 13y ago

Also the page contains the cloaked text (in yellow on a yellow background) : "This store owner is dishonest. Please Read." Defamation lawsuit waiting to happen.

RyanZAG 13y ago

A lot of people are saying that this was the wrong move because it will hurt the designer. Maybe. It's still the right move for other reasons: everyone doing business with these guys now knows they don't pay and to demand payment up front or not work with them at all. There are already mentions of this on consumer reviews [1]. Basically nycfreshmarket is likely to go out of business over this issue as that market is already so cutthroat. This action is the best action for the community at large - if every designer did this, the world would be a better place and everyone would be sure to pay their designers for work done. Win win situation for everyone involved (besides for crooks). [1] http://www.yelp.com/biz/nyc-fresh-market-new-york http://www.yelp.com/biz/nyc-fresh-market-new-york https://www.facebook.com/NYCFreshMarket https://www.facebook.com/NYCFreshMarket

flexie 13y ago
Let's extrapolate: What if you were thrown out of your apartment if you failed to pay rent, the hospital would make the pacemaker stop working if you didn't pay your bills. Your lawyer would tell your secrets and tell the court you are guilty if you didn't pay his fee. Guys would show up to collect the TV you had failed to pay for. Your citizenship would be revoked if you didn't pay taxes etc. etc, all without the creditor having to go to court first. Oh, and everything would be posted on Facebook, Linkedin etc for your friends to see. Stopping services and naming and shaming clients who don't / can't pay is a slippery slope and not always civilized. Be happy not all creditors act this way.
- glesica 13y ago
  Wait, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, because just about all those things that you mentioned actually do happen. You DO get evicted if you fail to pay rent. The hospital won't make the pacemaker stop working, but they'll refuse further treatment that might be necessary. The lawyer wouldn't tell all your secrets, but might be asked to help track you down. Repo men DO come and collect your TV if you don't pay for it. Your citizenship won't be revoked if you don't pay your taxes, but you can go to prison, thus having your liberty (arguably the most important part of citizenship) revoked. And most of these things happen in public, for everyone to see.

Pent 13y ago

This is brilliant marketing regardless of the negative press

edo 13y ago

Immature response that only makes the designer seem unprofessional.

bennyg 13y ago

After a WHOIS, it looks like the domain was registered by Onemine - and this is the most likely candidate for who registered it: http://www.onemine.com/ http://www.onemine.com/ My guess is, they still own the hosting and server space for the domain too.

balloot 13y ago

I can't believe people are defending this. If a brick-and-mortar store has a pay dispute with a contractor, would that contractor have the right to put a giant padlock on the store doors and spray paint a message on the door saying that the store owner didn't pay? Obviously not. How is this any different? The key thing to keep in mind is the designer may be wrong. I'm sure if you ask the store owner they have a totally different story, and it's likely not "We are SUPER EVIL and just stiff people who do good work". Maybe the contractor (onemine.com, if you're curious) tried to bill the store owner more than agreed upon, the store owner refused, and this is the result. Maybe the contractor left out some significant part of the site and the store owner wont pay until completion. Who knows? The problem here is OneMine has taken all the power in the pay dispute by holding the client's intellectual property hostage until all demands are met. It's at the very least unprofessional, but it becomes defamation very quickly unless OneMine has an absolutely airtight case. There better be exactly zero unfinished products, missed deadlines, rate changes, etc. And it's safe to say with many contract projects this is not the case.

alexqgb 13y ago
It's different because the stiffed party in your example does not own the store being locked and vandalized and cannot take those actions without breaking unrelated laws. That's not the case with IP for which the creator still has clear title and is (presumably) hosting on their own servers. Seperatly, it's 2013. We are waaaay past the point where intelligent people think that laws pertaining to the ownership of tangible and intangible goods can, do, and should map directly to one another. The differences between these classes of property are not trivial, and neither are the laws and social norms that govern people's treatment of each. Making analogies that ignore these differences is just unhelpful, stupid, and irritating. It's a bit like saying to a judge "I don't see why you're issuing this fine. After all, what I did is perfectly legal in (insert name of foreign country here)." None of this is to say that connections and parallels can't be drawn between the fields of tangible and intangible goods. It's just to say that doing so in a useful fashion demands acknowledgement of the wide gulfs that separate them, and clear identification of the specific points where they do overlap.
- 13y ago

whitej125 13y ago

Congrats, you've probably just did the owner of NYC Fresh Market a huge favor by giving this place some attention. Good publicity or bad publicity, by shining a spotlight on this establishment in HN you might convince some NYC HN locals to check it out.

richsin 13y ago

I agree that this is not the best option. Shaming the client does far more damage to both parties. I feel the designer's pain but public humiliation is not the answer. I think this also gives new or future freelancers/entrepreneurs the wrong idea. This happens rarely. If it happens too often, then it's probably your fault as much as the client's. I ran a web shop for small businesses ($500K - $10M/yr revenues) in NYC for about 8 years with many clients (good and bad) and faced non-payment issues only a handful of times. Here is my take on it: - Always get enough money from the client to cover your break even hourly rate for the entire project. Don't do payment terms without a deposit - unless it's a seemingly great client and your cash flow positive. - Keep your margins healthy. The tighter the margins, the harder it is to be civil when these situations come up. - When a customer does not pay, I give them more time and payment options first. I have even gone as far as extending more services to clients I believe are good people on credit if the issue has to do with business being slow. This has built some great long term clients. - 99.9% of the time, if your work causes a positive effect on someones business, they will always pay and never let you go. (They may not show it, but prompt payment and consistent work is the stamp of approval) - When a client does not pay and you have exhausted your process of collections, I put their old site up. If they did not have a site before, I put up a splash page with logo, phone numbers and contact form. Simple and classy. It takes 5 minutes. Most times if they had the money they would pay - so wish them the best of luck. It's usually always about money. - If you have a simple contract, you can always take them to court and you will almost always win or they will settle. I always do it myself, no lawyer. I always choose to not take down the site when I have a contract, I prefer the judgement or settlement if it goes that far. - Make sure the project has the potential of being successful. I am always approached with bad ideas and although they are willing to pay, successful projects pay off in multiples over the long term. It's not up to me to tell someone their idea sucks, but I do believe that if they are not willing to take some basic advice - there is a higher risk of issues. If not payment, satisfaction. I hope this didn't run too long, but bottom line, this type of publicity is not positive and as stated above, these things happen, rarely. Build a process to handle these issues and focus on finding better clients ALWAYS - not chasing bad ones.

brianmcconnell 13y ago

Years ago when I did freelance work writing software for custom phone systems, I had a shady client up in Marin. Suspecting they would not pay, I slipped a feature into the system where if I did not dial in and punch in a secret code within 90 days, it would stop functioning and display a cryptic "database error". Sure enough, the client didn't pay, and right on schedule, I got a customer support call mentioning the database error. I told them "actually it's working perfectly, you didn't pay your bill". I later found out they went through several other developers and then went out of business. I am sympathetic to small businesses that have money problem, but some people are simply shady and must be avoided.