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While the NSA stuff is really bad, what Groklaw is doing is absurd and should be called such.HN seems happy to point out that more people die from furniture tha

While the NSA stuff is really bad, what Groklaw is doing is absurd and should be called such.HN seems happy to point out that more people die from furniture than terrorism, but yet unwilling to correct people with similarly misguided opinions when it comes to this. 1)Groklaw doesnt' depend on anonymous tips. The site could simply put up a huge disclosure statement on a web form that THE NSA might get what you say. Or not accept tips except via public comments but still operate. 2)Most of the people Groklaw corresponds with don't need anonymity either. Those that do presumably know it and hence, will not correspond with them absent secure means (once made aware of the need for them) 3) Groklaw isn't an email service provider, it's a legal blog/online magazine. As such, likely none of the NSA's mechanisms for getting information from email providers apply. Compelling individuals to hand over their own correspondence is, as far as we know, hard. It can get worse with freedom of the press issues. So post a PGP key and say, if you really want anonymity, use this.(Edit) and use a mixnet or Pond, or something to send the message. PGP encrypted email from a new account just deals with the NSA's email intercept capability. If you are worried about their other abilities, you need something stronger then Tor since it fails for global passive adversary. Of course, that wouldn't get them publicity

damarquis 13y ago
"So post a PGP key and say, if you really want anonymity, use this." PGP only provides confidentiality, not anonymity. To get anonymity as well would require TOR.
- anologwintermut 13y ago
  Yeah, I realized my mistake, but Tor is not very useful against the NSA since it doesn't protect against a global passive adversary.
Joeri 13y ago
Maybe you should not so easily judge an operation you know nothing about. I will assume until proven otherwise by sufficient insight into the groklaw project that pj is an honest agent who sincerely feels that what groklaw does cannot be done with the nsa snooping in place.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > I will assume until proven otherwise by sufficient insight into the groklaw project that pj is an honest agent who sincerely feels that what groklaw does cannot be done with the nsa snooping in place That's not what PJ said. What PJ said is that she doesn't feel comfortable with using the internet with the NSA surveillance in place, and given her decision to minimize internet exposure, it is impossible for Groklaw to continue. Its not about what Groklaw does particularly, its about her own comfort level with use of the internet at all given the surveillance situation.
cube13 13y ago
>1)Groklaw doesnt' depend on anonymous tips. The site could simply put up a huge disclosure statement on a web form that THE NSA might get what you say. Or not accept tips except via public comments but still operate. That's what confuses me. The majority of Groklaw's content comes from PACER filings, which are public(at a cost). To my knowledge, they never posted anonymous rumors, and instead focused solely on the facts of the cases they cared about as presented on court. And honestly, if it's comments they are worried about... those are hardly private.
- davorak 13y ago
  Groklaw never claimed it depended on anonymous tips. They claimed that it in general changes how people communicate and that the author is just as uncomfortable with an unauthorized person going through their email as if they were going through their underwear drawer.
mpyne 13y ago
I can say that pj has always been protective of her privacy, even when Groklaw was essentially focused only on the SCO vs. IBM drama playing out. She's also a paralegal by training with a tech interest (which explains her comments about the rule of law), but she was not necessarily an expert in technical infrastructure, protocols, etc. Typically she relied on experts and other collaborators for things which needed a hefty dose of technical know-how on her site. So with that in mind I was quite shocked to read this morning that pj has abandoned the site, for the reasons you mention. But I can say that from what I've read of her over the years (I've had Groklaw on RSS for years now), it does kind of make sense if you look at it from her worldview; she values her privacy, geeks everywhere are saying that the NSA is literally reading every piece of mail sent by anyone to anyone, and the result is then not completely surprising...
davorak 13y ago
> 1)Groklaw doesnt' depend on anonymous tips. The site could simply put up a huge disclosure statement on a web form that THE NSA might get what you say. Or not accept tips except via public comments but still operate. I dont think Groklaw claimed it dependes on anonymous tips. The Groklaw fair well did indicate that they valued the privacy of their communications however just as they value not having anyone riffle through their underwear drawer. > 2)Most of the people Groklaw corresponds with don't need anonymity either. Those that do presumably know it and hence, will not correspond with them absent secure means (once made aware of the need for them) The need for anonymity was not claimed. No one siad lives or livelihoods were at direct risk. It was claimed that in general people act differently when they know they are being watched, recorded, or when it could be used against them in the future. > 3) Groklaw isn't an email service provider, it's a legal blog/online magazine. As such, likely none of the NSA's mechanisms for getting information from email providers apply. Compelling individuals to hand over their own correspondence is, as far as we know, hard. It can get worse with freedom of the press issues. I would assume that all of the email in question is likely to go through a email service provider and the NSA's normal mechanisms will work against that email provider. My understanding is that is uncommon for the NSA to compel "individuals to hand over their own correspondence" and that is normally happens at the email provider level. > So post a PGP key and say, if you really want anonymity, use this.(Edit) and use a mixnet or Pond, or something to send the message. PGP encrypted email from a new account just deals with the NSA's email intercept capability. If you are worried about their other abilities, you need something stronger then Tor since it fails for global passive adversary. What percentage of interested customers are lost when you add one more confirmation button in-between them and buying a product? I am sure a high percentage of people, interested in maintaing their privacy, are lost when GPG is required.
- anologwintermut 13y ago
  > What percentage of interested customers are lost when you add one more confirmation button in-between them and buying a product? I am sure a high percentage of people, interested in maintaing their privacy, are lost when GPG is required. This is true, there are massive usability problems. But you keep infinitely more customers if you keep your service running and allow them to choose if they want anonymity. In fact, again, I think most people don't care for this case. This is sort of the problem. Groklaw made the decision for their users in effect. We won't let you choose if you want privacy. I realize PJ is a party to those conversations and s/he gets to make privacy choices too for his/her end, but i am at al loss as to why someone accustom to public blog posts cannot conduct most of her correspondence about those public posts under the assumption they will be public.
Shivetya 13y ago
1) there was a claim by her that some sources are anonymous 2) always leave avenues of information open 3) Who is the press? Congress currently is trying to define who is the press and who is not. They seem to forget the 1st applies mentions speech and press separately. As for the PGP key, I am quite sure when they want it a FISA court will force you to give them your private key and not to say that you did. The government cannot be trusted with the information they are gathering. I don't care how many promises of "it won't be used", "it is private", "and it will be deleted". If anything the "leaks" from the IRS of people's personal information prove that no information is safe in the hands of government because they cannot keep their own people from misusing it. Who is to say that someone decides something posted to Groklaw gets some politicians panties in a wad? All the privacy rules in the world won't amount to jack if he has friends who accidentally find and leak it. Its been done in other organizations, it will occur with the NSA data. Most likely it will start showing up during election season.
- acqq 13y ago
  The new laws (I don't know how far they went?) that would declare bloggers "not the press" and under which bloggers lose even now debatable protection, together with the total collection of communication is really a good thing to make any blogger involved in controversies reconsider his future activity. Still I don't believe that the NSA activity is directly what moved PJ. We know that they give tips to other agencies from time to time but it's still FBI who's in charge for the things inside of the US. I remember that PJ already attempted to stop contributing directly to Groklaw. Now she really "closes the shop."
dragonwriter 13y ago
Groklaw isn't an organization, its a personal project, and its not shutting down because of the impact of the NSA revelations on Groklaw's mission, but because of the personal impact on the site operator. Groklaw is shutting down because Pamela Jones, in the wake of the NSA revelations, has made a "personal decision [...] to get off of the Internet to the degree it's possible".
- joe_the_user 13y ago
  This This clarification should be at the top the discussion
- malandrew 13y ago
  Yes, but she also made it clear that she often gets tips from sources that prefer to remain anonymous. Given that she comments on some pretty high-level court cases, this makes her a target. Take the Apple vs Samsung cases for example. It's very clear that these cases have become national political issues that have reached the desk of POTUS. What's to stop someone with close relations high up with relations to Obama, such as Tim Cook or an employee with close relations to the NSA due to collaboration between Apple and the NSA to ask a favor to figure out a leak that informed one of her blog stories? Given that parallel construction is official policy, we would have no way of knowing whether or not a corporate leaker was caught due to NSA involvement.
samstave 13y ago
>HN seems happy to point out that more people die from furniture than terrorism, but yet unwilling to correct people with similarly misguided opinions when it comes to this. This logic is broken. While more people may die from furniture than terrorism, what the NSA is doing is ensure that ZERO people are free. Period. You are not free when you simpl cannot communicate with another human being via electronic means without the government's ability to actually be party to that comm. While I cannot comment on any of these decisions to shut down their businesses - the fact that they are doing so shows that we are in a really really REALLY bad place with respect to any level of trust in the government. America is dead. So where do we live? Every single thing that the US stood for has literally been murdered in the last 13 years. We are not the land of the free. We are not a home for the brave. We have zero moral standing on any issue. We are 100% completely corrupt and destroyed as any nation we were raised to believe in. I believe this all leads to one place. A world war - but not between nations. Between humans and their governments. The systems of control will be stamping out any resistance to their control in the next few years. It doesnt get better from here.
- bostonpete 13y ago
  Comments like "We are 100% completely corrupt", "Every single thing that the US stood for has literally been murdered", and "America is dead" are so absurdly over the top that they undercut your message and turn off people who might otherwise be receptive to your comments.
  - samstave 13y ago
    While I am sure you are correct, I can't help that this is how I actually feel. The entire concept of "America", for me, has completely dissolved. The sad part is I now even have difficulty with the term "legal". All meaning from these terms has been removed. We live in an illusion. The actual reality we live in is a simple binary relationship: The haves. The have-nots. Those who have power (money) do literally anything they want in any situation. Legality is a tool to oppress the have-nots. So, take my upvote for calling me out on being emotional - but also know that I am actually having difficulty with the reality of the world we live in.
pbreit 13y ago
At first, I thought similar things. But then when you really look at Groklaw, an important reason for its success is its coverage of matters that probably did require a lot of anonymous sources.
typon 13y ago
> Of course, that wouldn't get them publicity So they're shutting down to get publicity for...what?

damarquis 13y ago

"So post a PGP key and say, if you really want anonymity, use this." PGP only provides confidentiality, not anonymity. To get anonymity as well would require TOR.

anologwintermut 13y ago
Yeah, I realized my mistake, but Tor is not very useful against the NSA since it doesn't protect against a global passive adversary.

Joeri 13y ago

Maybe you should not so easily judge an operation you know nothing about. I will assume until proven otherwise by sufficient insight into the groklaw project that pj is an honest agent who sincerely feels that what groklaw does cannot be done with the nsa snooping in place.

dragonwriter 13y ago
> I will assume until proven otherwise by sufficient insight into the groklaw project that pj is an honest agent who sincerely feels that what groklaw does cannot be done with the nsa snooping in place That's not what PJ said. What PJ said is that she doesn't feel comfortable with using the internet with the NSA surveillance in place, and given her decision to minimize internet exposure, it is impossible for Groklaw to continue. Its not about what Groklaw does particularly, its about her own comfort level with use of the internet at all given the surveillance situation.

cube13 13y ago

>1)Groklaw doesnt' depend on anonymous tips. The site could simply put up a huge disclosure statement on a web form that THE NSA might get what you say. Or not accept tips except via public comments but still operate. That's what confuses me. The majority of Groklaw's content comes from PACER filings, which are public(at a cost). To my knowledge, they never posted anonymous rumors, and instead focused solely on the facts of the cases they cared about as presented on court. And honestly, if it's comments they are worried about... those are hardly private.

davorak 13y ago
Groklaw never claimed it depended on anonymous tips. They claimed that it in general changes how people communicate and that the author is just as uncomfortable with an unauthorized person going through their email as if they were going through their underwear drawer.

mpyne 13y ago

I can say that pj has always been protective of her privacy, even when Groklaw was essentially focused only on the SCO vs. IBM drama playing out. She's also a paralegal by training with a tech interest (which explains her comments about the rule of law), but she was not necessarily an expert in technical infrastructure, protocols, etc. Typically she relied on experts and other collaborators for things which needed a hefty dose of technical know-how on her site. So with that in mind I was quite shocked to read this morning that pj has abandoned the site, for the reasons you mention. But I can say that from what I've read of her over the years (I've had Groklaw on RSS for years now), it does kind of make sense if you look at it from her worldview; she values her privacy, geeks everywhere are saying that the NSA is literally reading every piece of mail sent by anyone to anyone, and the result is then not completely surprising...

davorak 13y ago

> 1)Groklaw doesnt' depend on anonymous tips. The site could simply put up a huge disclosure statement on a web form that THE NSA might get what you say. Or not accept tips except via public comments but still operate. I dont think Groklaw claimed it dependes on anonymous tips. The Groklaw fair well did indicate that they valued the privacy of their communications however just as they value not having anyone riffle through their underwear drawer. > 2)Most of the people Groklaw corresponds with don't need anonymity either. Those that do presumably know it and hence, will not correspond with them absent secure means (once made aware of the need for them) The need for anonymity was not claimed. No one siad lives or livelihoods were at direct risk. It was claimed that in general people act differently when they know they are being watched, recorded, or when it could be used against them in the future. > 3) Groklaw isn't an email service provider, it's a legal blog/online magazine. As such, likely none of the NSA's mechanisms for getting information from email providers apply. Compelling individuals to hand over their own correspondence is, as far as we know, hard. It can get worse with freedom of the press issues. I would assume that all of the email in question is likely to go through a email service provider and the NSA's normal mechanisms will work against that email provider. My understanding is that is uncommon for the NSA to compel "individuals to hand over their own correspondence" and that is normally happens at the email provider level. > So post a PGP key and say, if you really want anonymity, use this.(Edit) and use a mixnet or Pond, or something to send the message. PGP encrypted email from a new account just deals with the NSA's email intercept capability. If you are worried about their other abilities, you need something stronger then Tor since it fails for global passive adversary. What percentage of interested customers are lost when you add one more confirmation button in-between them and buying a product? I am sure a high percentage of people, interested in maintaing their privacy, are lost when GPG is required.

anologwintermut 13y ago
> What percentage of interested customers are lost when you add one more confirmation button in-between them and buying a product? I am sure a high percentage of people, interested in maintaing their privacy, are lost when GPG is required. This is true, there are massive usability problems. But you keep infinitely more customers if you keep your service running and allow them to choose if they want anonymity. In fact, again, I think most people don't care for this case. This is sort of the problem. Groklaw made the decision for their users in effect. We won't let you choose if you want privacy. I realize PJ is a party to those conversations and s/he gets to make privacy choices too for his/her end, but i am at al loss as to why someone accustom to public blog posts cannot conduct most of her correspondence about those public posts under the assumption they will be public.

Shivetya 13y ago

1) there was a claim by her that some sources are anonymous 2) always leave avenues of information open 3) Who is the press? Congress currently is trying to define who is the press and who is not. They seem to forget the 1st applies mentions speech and press separately. As for the PGP key, I am quite sure when they want it a FISA court will force you to give them your private key and not to say that you did. The government cannot be trusted with the information they are gathering. I don't care how many promises of "it won't be used", "it is private", "and it will be deleted". If anything the "leaks" from the IRS of people's personal information prove that no information is safe in the hands of government because they cannot keep their own people from misusing it. Who is to say that someone decides something posted to Groklaw gets some politicians panties in a wad? All the privacy rules in the world won't amount to jack if he has friends who accidentally find and leak it. Its been done in other organizations, it will occur with the NSA data. Most likely it will start showing up during election season.

acqq 13y ago
The new laws (I don't know how far they went?) that would declare bloggers "not the press" and under which bloggers lose even now debatable protection, together with the total collection of communication is really a good thing to make any blogger involved in controversies reconsider his future activity. Still I don't believe that the NSA activity is directly what moved PJ. We know that they give tips to other agencies from time to time but it's still FBI who's in charge for the things inside of the US. I remember that PJ already attempted to stop contributing directly to Groklaw. Now she really "closes the shop."

dragonwriter 13y ago

Groklaw isn't an organization, its a personal project, and its not shutting down because of the impact of the NSA revelations on Groklaw's mission, but because of the personal impact on the site operator. Groklaw is shutting down because Pamela Jones, in the wake of the NSA revelations, has made a "personal decision [...] to get off of the Internet to the degree it's possible".

joe_the_user 13y ago
This This clarification should be at the top the discussion
malandrew 13y ago
Yes, but she also made it clear that she often gets tips from sources that prefer to remain anonymous. Given that she comments on some pretty high-level court cases, this makes her a target. Take the Apple vs Samsung cases for example. It's very clear that these cases have become national political issues that have reached the desk of POTUS. What's to stop someone with close relations high up with relations to Obama, such as Tim Cook or an employee with close relations to the NSA due to collaboration between Apple and the NSA to ask a favor to figure out a leak that informed one of her blog stories? Given that parallel construction is official policy, we would have no way of knowing whether or not a corporate leaker was caught due to NSA involvement.

samstave 13y ago

>HN seems happy to point out that more people die from furniture than terrorism, but yet unwilling to correct people with similarly misguided opinions when it comes to this. This logic is broken. While more people may die from furniture than terrorism, what the NSA is doing is ensure that ZERO people are free. Period. You are not free when you simpl cannot communicate with another human being via electronic means without the government's ability to actually be party to that comm. While I cannot comment on any of these decisions to shut down their businesses - the fact that they are doing so shows that we are in a really really REALLY bad place with respect to any level of trust in the government. America is dead. So where do we live? Every single thing that the US stood for has literally been murdered in the last 13 years. We are not the land of the free. We are not a home for the brave. We have zero moral standing on any issue. We are 100% completely corrupt and destroyed as any nation we were raised to believe in. I believe this all leads to one place. A world war - but not between nations. Between humans and their governments. The systems of control will be stamping out any resistance to their control in the next few years. It doesnt get better from here.

bostonpete 13y ago
Comments like "We are 100% completely corrupt", "Every single thing that the US stood for has literally been murdered", and "America is dead" are so absurdly over the top that they undercut your message and turn off people who might otherwise be receptive to your comments.
- samstave 13y ago
  While I am sure you are correct, I can't help that this is how I actually feel. The entire concept of "America", for me, has completely dissolved. The sad part is I now even have difficulty with the term "legal". All meaning from these terms has been removed. We live in an illusion. The actual reality we live in is a simple binary relationship: The haves. The have-nots. Those who have power (money) do literally anything they want in any situation. Legality is a tool to oppress the have-nots. So, take my upvote for calling me out on being emotional - but also know that I am actually having difficulty with the reality of the world we live in.

pbreit 13y ago

At first, I thought similar things. But then when you really look at Groklaw, an important reason for its success is its coverage of matters that probably did require a lot of anonymous sources.

typon 13y ago

> Of course, that wouldn't get them publicity So they're shutting down to get publicity for...what?