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The question in my mind is far more fundamental than anything related to the design of the battery packs or whether or not Elon Musk's involvement is of any rea
by robomartin 13y ago
The question in my mind is far more fundamental than anything related to the design of the battery packs or whether or not Elon Musk's involvement is of any real engineering value.
None of that matters. He/they would have to convince me that LiPo/LiIon packs are safe. This coming from someone who's waiting for Tesla's SUV's. I kind of draw a demarcation line between flight and road-based vehicles. Fires are a thousand times more dangerous at 30,000 feet.
The fundamental issue I keep coming back to is that Lithium Polymer batteries are dangerous. One or multiple cells. It does not matter.
I've been using and abusing them extensively for, I don't know, maybe a decade, in all of my RC gliders and helicopters. I keep them locked-up in a fireproof container and never --ever-- charge them unless I can be in the room during charging.
There are plenty of accounts in RC circles of battery packs spontaneously combusting, catching fire in flight, catching fire while charging or lighting-up if damaged. The problem, as it was explained to me, is that these cells can produce methane and have an avalanche failure mode. Methane is a product of a manufacturing defect whereby a small amount of moisture is sealed into the package. Lithium reacts unfavorably with moisture and the rest is history.
Lithium Polymer battery fires are extremely hot, fast and very powerful. I've seen it myself with three and six cell packs. I would not want to be anywhere near a fire in a larger pack.
And so the fundamental question for me is simple: Why? Why use Lithium-based chemistry for a flight battery pack. Yes, I know, lower weight, lower volume. However, I am not sure these packs can ever be considered to be safe. How can an aircraft manufacturer ensure that the quality of the packs it assembles is as required? Can you ever know?
I know millions of Lithium-based batteries are in use in everything from phones to laptops and more. Not sure how to think about that. A fire is a fire. A laptop stowed away in cargo can still cause a huge problem if it catches fire.
To be fair, I have never had a spontaneous fire in any of my thirty of forty packs (ranging from 2 cells to 12 cells). I have had cells spontaneously puff-up --inflating like a baloon-- and destroy the pack by expanding so much that the battery pack's casing cracks open. In those cases I've used them to experiment by overcharging to see how they light up. It does take a lot, but when they do it is massive fireball.
Perhaps someone with information closer to the source or quantifiable safety and reliability data can pitch in?
EDIT: Prior to LiPo's I was using NiCd (Nickel Cadmium) cells and have never had any issues, even with abuse and mechanical damage.
- jlgreco 13y agoFrom what I understand, locking up the Dreamliner batteries in a fireproof container is one of the steps they took to limit the severity of any potential future issues. The idea being that the batteries don't have to be perfectly safe if they can't take down the airplane.
- abstractbill 13y agoFrom this video, if it was the batteries, the new containers don't look very fireproof: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23295115 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23295115
- jlgreco 13y agoYeah, I'm leaning heavily towards this not actually being the batteries this time. In a way, that is kind of worse I think since it means they are not dealing with a known problem.
- VladRussian2 13y agoheavily electrified big vessel? like submarine or a ship. At least at the start, there were a lot of fires from wires and other pieces of electric equipment. And you can't just go with extra thick wires in the plane design.
- jccooper 13y agoFrom that video, if it was the batteries, someone moved them, and then set them on fire. The batteries are nowhere near there. They're low on the plane, one set near the wings and one forward. That's maybe the APU, though more forward than I'd expect. Looks more like the cabin, maybe even the "flight attendant rest area" which is above the cabin. My guess: random electrical. Or someone smoking carelessly.
- marvin 13y agoHow come we rarely hear about fires in Lithium-based battery packs in consumer electronics? I mean, it surely happens occasionally, but it has to be a very rare occurence.