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Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

429 points by tankenmate 13y ago

schrodingersCat 13y ago
I don't know how we got here, but you must admit that SWAT teams in mine-resistant personnel carriers sure look spiffy. If your police force isn't ready for battle, the terrorists win
- xroche 13y ago
  You’re More Likely to be Killed by a Toddler than a Terrorist. (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/06/youre-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-a-toddler-than-a-terrorist.html http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/06/youre-more-likely-to-...)
  - digitalengineer 13y ago
    From the article: "–You are 8 times more likely to be killed by a police officer than by a terrorist"... Wow, so we need a war against... The police? If we follow todays logic?
    - glogla 13y ago
      Maybe they can use their military-grade hardware and shoot themselves.
    - JonSkeptic 13y ago
      You misunderstand his point: what we really need is a war on toddlers.
      - daraul 13y ago
        Toddlers are assholes anyways. I really support this endeavor.
      - angersock 13y ago
        Enough babying them--it is time to stop letting their infantile behavior and juvenile antics hurt our civilization. We can't continue to let minor offenses slide.
      - schrodingersCat 13y ago
        If the military hardware fails, we can always eat them ala modest proposal
    - vijayr 13y ago
      at this rate, we'll soon have something like "war of the day". Seems like the media likes us to be at "war" with something, all the time.
  - kens 13y ago
    I was wondering how toddlers kill people, so I went to the original source, which describes 5 fatal shootings. All but one were by preschoolers, not toddlers, which ruins the alliteration. And the article cherry-picks data from 2013; terrorism deaths are considerably higher if you include other years (even excluding 2001). I'd classify this as a catchy link title, not an accurate statement.
- digitalengineer 13y ago
  What terrorists? Did you read the article? "Today, the use of this sort of force is in too many jurisdictions the first option for serving search warrants instead of the last. SWAT teams today are used to break up poker games and massage parlors, for immigration enforcement, even to perform regulatory inspections."
  - SkyMarshal 13y ago
    Sarcasm.
    - rfnslyr 13y ago
      In ASCII. Totally works.
      - angersock 13y ago
        It's a new header type in the HTTP/2.0 spec.
        schrodingersCat 13y ago
        And people say the standard isn't interesting
        angersock 13y ago
        See! You used it right there, and my browser didn't even display it--must be conforming.
cypherpunks01 13y ago
FYI Two days ago there was a very extensive discussion on a Salon article which was an excerpt of this book: “Why did you shoot me? I was reading a book” (salon.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6001843 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6001843
- tehwalrus 13y ago
  Thanks, I didn't connect the dots here (I had read the Salon article.)
Shivetya 13y ago
Simple, do you see the limits to preventive actions they can take in most cities? Have you read how "rights" activist are going to strip NYC cops from doing just that which has resulted in an incredible drop in murders and similar crimes? We got there because we stopped police from policing and instead forced them to respond to situations left to build until they explode. We got there by telling them, no you can't look at that guy because of where he lives, where he doesn't live, his skin color, the type of clothing he wears, or such.
- mercurial 13y ago
  I'm not sure of what you're trying to say here. Is it OK for the police to harass people because they're black, or sport a beard, or wear the wrong T-shirt? That's what you call "preventive policing"?
  - dsr_ 13y ago
    You can't deny the effectiveness of putting everyone in jail.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - gknoy 13y ago
      You must have a different definition of "effective" than I do. Prison is like graduate school for criminal behavior.
      - drharris 13y ago
        He didn't say they get back out.
        dragonwriter 13y ago
        Crime still happens in jail. If you put everyone (presumably, except for the jail guards) in jail, you don't reduce the crime rate, you increase it and change the location.
kevincennis 13y ago
"But whether it's with the ubiquity of these SWAT raids, stop-and-frisk, or the default geared-up, Robocop response to political protest, the relationship between police and the public on the whole is growing increasingly antagonistic -- and oddly, this comes during a period when both crime and on-duty police deaths are at historic lows." Author seems to completely miss the possibility that this is causal. Edit: Just see gizmo686's comment below. Pretty much sums up my line of thinking.
- drzaiusapelord 13y ago
  Or maybe the author doesn't want to pull something completely out his ass? Isn't this what we criticize journalists for? Especially in social sciences reporting? There has been a lot of spilled ink regarding why big city crime has been going down with lots of decent theories (abortion access, gentrification, easier access to higher education, smarter policing, larger prison population, etc) and I've never really heard that heavy handed SWAT tactics account for this.
  - gizmo686 13y ago
    But the author is making a claim that this is a contradiction. There is an obvious explanation that disagrees with the author that was ommited. That is exactly what we complain about in journalism.
- king_jester 13y ago
  If you want to say its causal, you are going to have to show some kind of evidence that it is. The author is correct not to make that leap since they don't have any such evidence or info to provide on that point.
- chipotle_coyote 13y ago
  I suspect that what you're intending to assert is the possibility that lower crime and higher police survival rates are due to the access the police have to better, "military-style" weapons, and you're accusing the author of missing that possibility. But that's not what the thesis of the sentence you quoted above is. The thesis is "it is odd that the relationship between police and the public on the whole is growing increasingly antagonistic." For that relationship to be casual, that would mean that lower crime and higher police survival rates are due to the practice of responding to illegal poker games among retirees at the Elks Lodge with the same degree of force as they'd use to take down an international drug cartel.
vondur 13y ago
A large number of police officers are former military personnel. It's not surprising that this militarized philosophy is common among police today.
- ihsw 13y ago
  This is an awful generalization, there are many veterans that see this as excessive and abhorrent. They left the Middle East to trade the military environment for quiet(er) civilian life.
  - arh68 13y ago
    Yet they presumably chose to join the military, right? Is it really excessive and abhorrent to suggest that those who decide to join the military would tend towards militarized philosophies? They're not saints.
    - tomgirl1 13y ago
      It is absolutely not true that local police forces are largely ex-military, or even close. They are by and large civil servants who have been handed a federally subsidized budget of military grade armaments from the dept of homeland security and been "militarized" by the federal govt. Tanks, automatic weapons, helicopters, bulletproof vests, helmets, armor piercing ammunition, bomb squads, all provided by the federal arms dealers. Any idea that the militarization of local and state police is driven by ex-veterans is not only factually wrong but a crazy excuse for the fact that the US federal government has been training them to militarize themselves. And once they have these toys, you might expect them to feel pretty powerful just for having them. In fact, I think you could make the opposite case, that actual veterans if they made up the police force would respect the constitution and would never treat US citizens on US soil in this manner.
  - mabhatter 13y ago
    Real MILITARY soldiers are subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice... Which is somewhat stricter and includes a lot of rules that are unconstitutional for crvilians. They also don't get to form unions, they get a chin of command and that's it. They break ORDERS and they get Courtmartialed. Our militarized police like to call the rest of us "civilians" but they run straight to their Union when any superior calls them out, and they hide behind the same lawyers as the rest of us and ask for favors from the prosecutor and court. We need to keep the teacher unions and break the police unions up, then subject them to higher standards of conduct, and LOWER standards of defense and evidence... We have allowed them to become a wild pack of dogs and they need caged up, put back on the leash, or put down.
cousin_it 13y ago
During the 2011 protests in Russia, some people suggested that the government benefits from bad relations between the public and the police, because the government is afraid that the police will side with the public during mass protests. Though I guess that problem is much less severe in the US.
- dclowd9901 13y ago
  Given how the situation is playing out in Egypt, I'd say this assessment is spot-on.
dobbsbob 13y ago
Google the story about 7 cops in VA that went after a 17yr old girl because she was carrying non alcoholic fruit soda the cops thought were wine coolers. They handled this by breaking through her car windows guns drawn like they were seals going after bin laden lol.
- chc 13y ago
  Actually, it was a 20-year-old college student with a 12-pack of water, and they failed to break her windows because she drove away when the crowd of large men ran up and started beating on her car, and then they charged her with assault.
  - hfsktr 13y ago
    Link for those who want the details: http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/state-regional/abc-asks-state-police-to-probe-arrest-over-bottled-water/article_cf527064-e88c-11e2-aae0-001a4bcf6878.html http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/state-regional/abc-asks-st...
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      "She and her roommates say they panicked, dialed 911 and tried to drive to a police station." Christ, if that is somebodies genuine reaction after having an encounter with the police, then it is plainly the police involved that should be charged and arrested. "one felony count of eluding police." Fucking hell...
  - Moral_ 13y ago
    The charges were dropped.
    - matwood 13y ago
      a) The charges should have never been filed. b) The police should have been suspended and/or fired. Even if the girl did buy a 12 pack of beer, the level of force used was beyond excessive for the crime they thought occurred.
run4yourlives 13y ago
Since I can't flag the story, I'd like someone to explain to me how in the hell they consider this "Hacker News". Seriously, this article, and all 22 comments of this discussion belong on reddit.
- diydsp 13y ago
  From [1], "McKenzie Wark talks about the new class of hackers, a direct social manifestation of the intellectual property laws. According to Wark hackers are the people capable of forcing the sign/information system to creatively transform." Since hackers transform the sign/information system, they inherently infringe upon AND establish authority. This puts us incidentally in the same position as other authority, such as police. [1] http://ramocki.net/ramocki-diy.pdf http://ramocki.net/ramocki-diy.pdf
  - run4yourlives 13y ago
    What in god's name does that have to do with the article that was posted?
- mindstab 13y ago
  If you think limited freedom cultures are good for our work go on ahead ignoring this stuff. Or realize that we generally need a good free society to work in and flourish in and these are all precursor warnings to more political crack downs that could drastically curb the hacker scene in the US. There are already increased cases of security researchers getting the SWAT treatment followed by jail. Who thinks thats good. These articles are digging deeper into the why this is happening trying to look for ways to prevent it before it tanks the US tech scene. I'd say that's relevant but if you disagree put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and wait another decade and we'll see
  - run4yourlives 13y ago
    If you think limited freedom cultures are good for our work go on ahead ignoring this stuff. I exist outside of HN. HN though is where I want to see technology articles and discussion, not politics. From the guidelines: Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon.
Spooky23 13y ago
The SWAT issue is a different issue IMO, more related to politicians wanting to "do something" at the Federal and State levels. "Doing something" translates to "allocate funding". That money can pay for more cops/overtime, or stuff. Or it may be earmarked by a congressman whose donor makes light tanks to only buy tanks. The us vs. them stuff is related to the state of affairs in high-crime communities. Cops can't relate to the people they interact with (and vice versa) because they essentially live in different societies -- they might as well be different planets. If a policeman has access to body armor and machine guns to serve a warrant on some guy in a house, he will take them along. The cop has no idea who may be behind a door when they knock -- they may be intoxicated/high, have a vicious pit bull, or just be a scared kid with a gun and nothing to lose. The policeman wants to go home to see his kids at the end of his shift.
- jimzvz 13y ago
  If a policeman has access to body armor and machine guns to serve a warrant on some guy in a house, he will take them along. The cop has no idea who may be behind a door when they knock -- they may be intoxicated/high, have a vicious pit bull, or just be a scared kid with a gun and nothing to lose. The policeman wants to go home to see his kids at the end of his shift. Uh, shouldn't this information be available based on some kind of investigation that the warrant is based on? This argument leads to the "shoot first, ask questions later" ethos. It is exactly what leads to innocent people and animals being murdered by police. The police should not shift the risks of their job on to the public.
  - Spooky23 13y ago
    Easy for a guy sitting in a chair in front of a computer to say. I'm not justifying the behavior, I'm trying to illuminate why it's happening. You're attributing responsibility for a situation to people who don't make decisions. Society has made choices (let's move to the burbs to get away from those poor folk) and your representatives have enacted laws that have created all sorts of absurd situations. And we drop policemen into the middle of the chaos to exert some control over it.
rayiner 13y ago
How did we get here? When gangs and organized crime turned the cities into war zones in the 1970's and 1980's.
- princess3000 13y ago
  Actually the militarization of the police force comes from a coordinated effort to repurpose military hardware for domestic police use. [1] Kind of funny that the gear used to fight one terrible war overseas is sent back to our own country and used to fight another terrible war domestically, huh? [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/program-1033-military-equipment-police-2011-12 http://www.businessinsider.com/program-1033-military-equipme...
  - rayiner 13y ago
    That's a relatively recent phenomenon that comes at the tail end of something that has been happening for many decades now.
- parfe 13y ago
  The existence of drug organizations is a capitalist response to government intervention in the market. Prohibition is the source of the black drugs market as well as the reason the police militarized themselves.
  - lukifer 13y ago
    It is impossible to outlaw drugs. Attempting to do so merely increases the price by increasing the risk, resulting in unending escalatio. http://longnow.org/seminars/02010/may/03/deviant-globalization/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02010/may/03/deviant-globalizati...
- roc 13y ago
  Then why did the practice only catch on and spread like wild-fire after crime had already begun its plunge? And why, after crime has continued to drop dramatically, has SWAT-ification continued to increase (if not accelerated) rather than plateau or even drop in response?
DanielBMarkham 13y ago
Somewhat tangential: There has long been a tie-in between the military and the police. Former military members make an easier transition to the police, and a lot of policemen have a strong weekend-warrior, macho mentality and like big guns and things that go boom. Plus the rank system is similar, there's use of deadly force, and so on. The U.S. has also seen major mission creep in the military. Instead of going in and bringing a devastating kinetic assault to an enemy in order to get them to surrender, now we're in the mission of Counter-Insurgency (COIN), nation-building, handing out candy to kids, and air-lifting supplies in to earthquake victims. Because of all of that, I think we need a new branch of the armed forces specifically set aside for nation-building, humanitarian relief, and so forth. It's a completely different mission from the other branches, and deserves its own budget, training, and voice. Then, civilian police forces should only pull military members from that branch. We need to separate the warrior mentality from the protect and serve, community-friendly mentality. Some organizational re-alignment may help.
- winthrowe 13y ago
  Here's a TED talk discussing such a military realignment: http://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_barnett_draws_a_new_map_for_peace.html http://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_barnett_draws_a_new_map_for_...
- kps 13y ago
  The US military did do extensive nation-building in Europe and Japan after WWII. (I have it from my father, a 4-year-old German at war's end, that candy was most definitely involved.) I would argue that the difference is that, then, the military was expected and allowed to win the war first.
- dkarl 13y ago
  I wouldn't say the military has seen mission creep. Their job was always to stay until the fighting was over and the mission was accomplished. The difference is that we've found ourselves in conflicts where the fighting doesn't stop, and the mission might be "accomplished" now and then but it never stays that way. Judging by our recent conflicts, it's wishful thinking to try to separate the duties of fighting and interacting with civilians, and I think the new branch of the armed forces you're talking about is basically what the current U.S. Army is trying to be. Any nation-building and humanitarian relief force we create will have to deal with ambushes, mortar attacks, RPGs, and assaults on their bases, so it's not like they won't be fighters (and inevitably killers.) Honestly, I think the army, along with a handful of progressive city police departments, will solve the problem of community policing long before most local U.S. law enforcement agencies. The army has greater ability to control and change its culture. It won't happen overnight, but we can hope that eventually U.S. cops will learn to respect their neighbors across town by the example of how U.S. soldiers treat people from the other side of the world. The army will also learn how to assess soldiers' fitness for interaction with civilians, which will have interesting implications for law enforcement.
makerops 13y ago
The job of the US' domestic police force is to serve and protect; the job of the military is to defend the nation against foreign enemies. When police forces become militaristic, the citizens become the foreign enemy.
- justinator 13y ago
  The job of the US domestic police force is to serve and protect the status quo (NOT individuals). Be against that, and you're against the police. Police aren't paid to care what the status quo is, but the status quo pay the police. And who is the status quo (ask yourself) The methods they use to protect and serve that ideal just need to be one step less that what the masses will absolutely tolerate. If they cross that line, you get a riot. Police violate individual citizen rights all the time and usually it's just ignored. It's a sorry state of affairs. That's why I'm afraid of police and police actions.
fixxer 13y ago
I'm in constant awe of the state of fear in this country.
splrb 13y ago
Anything that keeps us scared and submissive works well for the plutocracy. Citizens should never think that they live in a neighborhood, oh no, they live in a terrorist infested war zone.
Caskman 13y ago
"There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people" -Commander William Adama, Battlestar Galactica
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- arh68 13y ago
  Do you think it matter if veterans were disallowed from joining law enforcement? Without getting into constitutionality arguments, would it really make the country safer for all its citizens (and not just those lucky enough to never be confronted by cops)?
bicknergseng 13y ago
In the interest of playing devil's advocate, couldn't the fact that we have 94 guns per 100 Americans have something to do with it? To be honest, the cops that work in Oakland, Compton, Detroit, Chicago, and many other cities effectively are fighting wars with heavily armed gangs, etc. I don't know that I buy the notion that police are the way they are today because of the Civil Rights Movement and Vietnam protests. Seems to me like the rise of inner city violence is a far bigger mover. Not trying to justify militarized police, just trying to understand the reasons why in order to logically approach alternatives.
- cobrausn 13y ago
  America has always had that many guns, but the police weren't always militarized. In addition, the amount of crime and number of police killed in the line of duty has steadily decreased over the years. The devil's advocate in me wonders if the number of police killed is reduced because of the heavy use of SWAT whenever they think there might be any threat to an officer in a raid.
  - bicknergseng 13y ago
    America hasn't always had as many guns as it has now, nor the population density. Emphasis on population density and urbanification.
    - cobrausn 13y ago
      In regards to the first point, yes, there are more guns. I don't think the percentage of the population that owns 1 or more firearms has increased significantly.
- roc 13y ago
  > "Seems to me like the rise of inner city violence is a far bigger mover." What rise? Crime, inner city included, has been plunging, nationwide, for decades now. Major city crime rates are approaching fifty year lows.
enko 13y ago
You can't make this shit up. > Police in North Dakota borrowed a $154 million MQ-9 Predator B drone from the Department of Homeland Security to arrest a family of anti-government separatists who refused to return six cows that wandered onto their farm.
- blhack 13y ago
  That's really misleading. There is a base in Grand Forks, ND that houses several CBP (Customs and Border Patrol) Predator Drones, and they work with local law enforcement when asked to. So, more than likely, the drone is going to be flying home here anyway, and made a pass over some property. The facility where these things are flown from isn't some top secret bunker or anything, it's an office building on the air force base, and they give tours to local schools[1]. A local cop probably just stood behind one of the pilots while they flew over the property and spotted the cows. Also: to somebody who didn't grow up in this area, that probably sounds really silly...but keep in mind that cows are worth a couple of thousand dollars each. So you're talking, low end, about $12,000 worth of property that they won't return. That's like having a stolen car. -- I think something like this (flying a UAV, since CBP doesn't actually fly drones) should require a search warrant, but this is a totally reasonable use of resources IMHO. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, I guess. [1]: They'd probably give a tour to anybody that asked, actually. Grand Forks is home to one of the biggest and best Aviation and Aerospace engineering schools in the world[2], and it would surprise me if there wasn't a relationship between the air force base there, and the school. If any HNers are ever up there, I'd suggest asking for a tour. [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Odegard_School_of_Aerospace_Sciences http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Odegard_School_of_Aeros...
  - enko 13y ago
    Well, it's quoting from the ACLU feature. The headline does take a certain stance, but 10 years ago it would sound like some joke headline from Robocop. I'm not a US citizen but if I was I'd love to take that tour.
  - rickdale 13y ago
    I don't think the comment is misleading at all. I think its pretty accurate and makes a succinct point about the current state of affairs.
matt__rose 13y ago
David Simon and Ed Burns wrote the following passage for the TV show, "The Wire" spoken by Bunny Colvin: <<<< I mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory. >>>> This was written in 2004. With the passage of time, it seems more and more prescient.
- yardie 13y ago
  It's not prescient because that is how it's been in predominantly black neighbourhoods. Black people have been saying this for the last 2-3 decades through protests, riots, and community organisers. It's only now that everyone has a cameraphone and a Youtube account do you get to see what's been going on. Even well respected actor, Levar Burton, knows how to act in front of police. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=M-ckDJ3xTaE https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=M-ck.... For black people we go into every encounter with the police thinking this might be my last moment on earth.
  - mabhatter 13y ago
    Being as its Levar... His famous role was in Roots as the slave that kept getting lashed for not taking a proper English name from his owner over and over if he would just say his English name... So its more than a little ironic that THIS actor makes a video about how to be properly submissive to his mas'ers! It just sad that he would have to make a video like that because most of his TV time has been spent reading books to children. He's about as threatening as Mr. Rogers and still gets the jackboot.
known 13y ago
Cop/Soldiers are banned from thinking out of the box
nostromo 13y ago
Crime is at an all-time low yet spending on police is near an all-time high. (Those factors could have a causal relationship, but I doubt it's the primary cause based on reading "The Better Angels of Our Nature".) http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1950_2010USp_12s1li011mcn_50t http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1950_2010... Having big budgets but less crime means these swollen budgets end up being wasted on a lot of "fun" things like military gear. (Did you know that Wisconsin has two anti-terrorism centers? One in Madison and one in Milwaukee.) I think this has something to do with politicians being unable to touch the budgets of first responders. Tangentially, due to stringent building codes, the number and severity of fires has been dropping dramatically over time. Yet spending on fire protection only goes one way: up. http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1950_2010USp_12s1li011mcn_52t http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1950_2010... Today in the US, if you call 911 about an emergency medical condition, they will often send a fire engine along with an ambulance and a cop. It makes me wonder if firemen and firewomen are so underutilized they've ended up with mostly make-work.
- rayiner 13y ago
  > Crime is at an all-time low yet spending on police is near an all-time high. Two words: public unions.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    I'm not opposed to unions in general, but there are definitely some specific ones our labor relations dept. could point out that would correlate very well with your point.
  - wwhitman 13y ago
    Is it inconceivable that crime is lower due to more police on the streets and more criminals in jail?
    - rayiner 13y ago
      I think that's true, but I also think it's true that it would be possible for police forces to demobilize a bit, instead of continuing their ramp-up. It's like invading Iraq. The police went in and broke the criminal gangs and organized crime. What's needed now is nation building, so to speak. The crime that's left is leaderless gangs of youths shooting each other up in turf wars, and SWAT teams aren't the answer to that.
caycep 13y ago
It would be interesting to get a lot of data (HN specialty!) looking at the breakdown of all the different approaches. It seems like there are 2 extremes, and a wide variety from place to place. Certain parts of NYC has seen amazingly drops in violent crime due to more "community-oriented" policing that requires officers to integrate themselves into the fabric of the neighborhoods in their precincts (I think it's NYC...). On the other end, you have that Salon article about SWAT teams gone willy nilly. Some basic correlations, and visualizations showing comparative effectiveness of the different techniques could go a long way....
nrivadeneira 13y ago
One of my best friends is NYPD working in the projects in Brownsville NY, one of the most dangerous cities in NYC. From the stories he tells me, he is fighting a war. Of course, that's not applicable to most other areas, but it's worth noting that when your day-to-day job is dealing with the criminals and scum of the earth, it changes your perspective on life.
- gizmo686 13y ago
  There is at least two sides to every war. Dissarmerment has to start somewhere.
- coopdog 13y ago
  But are they criminals just because drugs are illegal, and they got sent to prison where crime is all they learned? Has the adversarial relationship been heightened by both sides? When you send the police to war, the people become the enemy. The goal should be deterring the behavior not taking these people down and stomping them hard in retribution.
- qohen 13y ago
  Forgive my pedantry, but: dangerous as it is, Brownsville is not a city, but rather a neighborhood of Brooklyn, NY: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownsville,_Brooklyn
  - nrivadeneira 13y ago
    You are correct, but not forgiven. Sometimes I wonder why no mistake may go uncorrected on the internet...
D9u 13y ago
Here in Hawai'i, we're lucky to have small communities, from which many of our police officers are enlisted, thus maintaining more of sense that we are all part of the same class, as well as the fact that many officers are related to people in the communities, so there is less disconnection and stratification than one would see in larger metropolitan areas. I've been on both sides of the law here, and have always been treated with the utmost respect and humanity, even when I didn't deserve such. (a couple of drunken incidents, which will shame me for the rest of my days) Sure our local police force has an armored, Lenco Bearcat, which they rarely use, but such measures are necessary in today's world - where criminals possess military-grade weapons. This is not to say that I disagree with the article, as it's plain to see that the points made in the article are valid for a large portion of the USA. I guess all I can say is... Lucky we live Hawai'i!
- mililani 13y ago
  I find that hard to believe. I grew up in Hawaii, and I have come across lots of dick head cops engaging in some heinous activities. I have several friends from Oahu who would also agree with my statement.
  - D9u 13y ago
    O'ahu is NOT the Big Island... But the Big Island is Hawai'i, and I've lived on this island for my entire life, with the exception of military service.
alan_cx 13y ago
Not a flippant comment...... I blame Hollywood. I honestly do. They glamorize and hero worship mega violent law breaking cops, while at the same time portraying criminals as super beings with government like resources, who always lose due to the violent law breaking cops. The people in the end believe this to be a vaguely true, even though in their lives they rarely see it, most cops are in fact fairly decent professionals, and criminals are average to dumb folk with bugger all resources, while the cops think they look crap compared to the Hollywood versions, and want more powers and toys. No? Well, I'm yet to see a credible argument as to why adverts influence us, but movies don't. One of those special people who claim ads dont work on you? Simply, I don't believe you. Every one reckons that, yet ads work.
- yk 13y ago
  You are missing a news industry, who secretly want a Micheal Bay like special effects budget .
  - alan_cx 13y ago
    Very good point. Yes, they do dress up news like an action movie. That most obvious and grating feature of this is the emotional music they now play over news and documentaries. Also, they way enemies are completely demonized and dehumanized, and the good guys worshiped. And when a lead character goes off script, they really freak out.
- cadasfafad 13y ago
  I think it's not just that Hollywood movies are influencing the Police, although that is part of it. Art both reflects and influences culture. It's hard to separate out causes and effects, although it's clear there is a problem here. American culture as a whole places a ridiculous emphasis on empowerment through violence. It's everywhere; films, tv, books, music, punditry, news reporting, people's attitudes and idle conversation. A huge proportion of narratives resolve themselves through heroic violence. Often a heroic character will find inner strength through physical violence (and often inner strength means becoming murderously callous). If you take a step back and look at it critically, it is rather absurd. In the real world true empowerment comes from intelligence and leadership skills. In the real world, having to kill lots of people would be very traumatic (at least for a well adjusted person). I don't think it's as simple as violent movies causing violence. I think the real dangers come from the unspoken assumptions, the things that movies take for granted, which then become part of everyday thinking.
base698 13y ago
Relevant via The Wire: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA5za4VsskM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA5za4VsskM
socialist_coder 13y ago
Yet another reason to not have guns in your house. If you get raided by overzealous police that don't even identify themselves properly, and you have a gun that you try to use for self defense... EOF
- gizmo686 13y ago
  In other words, you shouldn't have a gun because some scary men might break into your house and point their guns at you.
  - lmm 13y ago
    You shouldn't have a gun except for things you care about more than your and others' lives. Having one makes it far more likely for a violent encounter to escalate into a lethal one.
mrjaeger 13y ago
As with everything else it seems to be a case of misplaced incentives, both good and bad. Imagine in 2 out of every 100 raids (numbers completely made up of course) that these style raids are called for - the people inside are incredibly dangerous and bargin in unannounced is the safest thing to do. Based on what I've read these police forces seem to treat every situation like this. Whether a hardened criminal or some dude playing poker with his friends they assume the worst and barge in guns a blazing. And what happens? 2 times out of 100 they nail the bad guys and are probably congratulated on the local news and within the department. And the other 98 times? Nothing. They hand out some minor violations and leave, none the worse for it. Or again that's what it seems the case is based on these articles. So why wouldn't they just barge in and do whatever the hell they want. They are either heroes or the people they are terrorizing have no way to fight back. There needs to be some way to either punish them for this or positively incentivize more civil raids/raiding at all. As the financial crisis showed us, bankers would bet the country if it meant they get a bigger bonus. It seems we are a point where the police will essentially do the same.
aidos 13y ago
It's interesting to contrast the approach taken in different countries. I spent the majority of my life in New Zealand but the last 9 years in the UK so I've witnessed it first hand. Within the first couple of months of arriving here (London) I had attended several large gatherings, for example festivals in and out of London, and there was a marked difference in the police handling. I was genuinely surprised when I realised that the police controlling the events were interested in the safety and enjoyment of the public. They weren't looking to stir up trouble, they weren't searching for the "bad eggs" to antagonise - they were just trying to do their best to control the situation by working with those involved. In my time in NZ I saw the police carry out all sorts of actions that were completely unnecessary. I saw someone arrested for overloading a car with people leaving a party - prior to that I watched the police insist that the driver allow the car to be overloaded in the first place. I was once tripped from behind by the police (on the pavement) for walking alongside a protest on my way home from University. Might not seem like big issues but I've seen countless similar examples where the police were actually responsible for instigating the problem. There's very much an Us vs Them attitude in NZ that, thankfully, isn't the norm in the UK (for the moment).
- lostlogin 13y ago
  What city were you in? I haven't experienced anything like this - but I've always been in Auckland. That sounds bad.
kunil 13y ago
Oh boy you have to visit Turkey sometime. It is not just war, it is a religious war! They attack people while chanting "Allah Allah Allah...".
tomgirl1 13y ago
What about the concept of vulnerability? Overwhelming force draws people (rightly so) into believing an injustice has been done. What police should be doing is being rudimentary members of the community at large. That is being just as vulnerable as the rest of us. We have all seen the situation where a traffic cop gets killed by someone they stopped for speeding and has a warrant and kills the cop. Then the state police go crazy and embark on a manhunt which can and has had collateral damage. As if because that policeman died that a mob of local and state police can avenge the death of one of their own at any cost. This is a sick psychological proposition, if police can unleash a vigilante hell against citizens when someone shoots or injures one of them, then why cant citizens do the same without repercussions? The police state is setting a very bad example for the rest of us. If police were part of the community in the same sense of being vulnerable to the same bad forces the rest of us are, they would command a lot more respect and be seen as our protectors, but as it stands they have adopted the overwhelming force of stormtroopers. As a result the respect they attempt to pursue from shooting dogs, breaking down doors, driving humvees, shutting down streets, invading homes with no-knock warrants, targeting people with no facts, will only erode their standing in our society while putting more people in jail unjustly, but also deny citizens from having any rights based on our national constitution. And Washington will call it a debate.

429 points by tankenmate 13y ago

I don't know how we got here, but you must admit that SWAT teams in mine-resistant personnel carriers sure look spiffy. If your police force isn't ready for battle, the terrorists win

xroche 13y ago
You’re More Likely to be Killed by a Toddler than a Terrorist. (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/06/youre-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-a-toddler-than-a-terrorist.html http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/06/youre-more-likely-to-...)
- digitalengineer 13y ago
  From the article: "–You are 8 times more likely to be killed by a police officer than by a terrorist"... Wow, so we need a war against... The police? If we follow todays logic?
  - glogla 13y ago
    Maybe they can use their military-grade hardware and shoot themselves.
  - JonSkeptic 13y ago
    You misunderstand his point: what we really need is a war on toddlers.
    - daraul 13y ago
      Toddlers are assholes anyways. I really support this endeavor.
    - angersock 13y ago
      Enough babying them--it is time to stop letting their infantile behavior and juvenile antics hurt our civilization. We can't continue to let minor offenses slide.
    - schrodingersCat 13y ago
      If the military hardware fails, we can always eat them ala modest proposal
  - vijayr 13y ago
    at this rate, we'll soon have something like "war of the day". Seems like the media likes us to be at "war" with something, all the time.
- kens 13y ago
  I was wondering how toddlers kill people, so I went to the original source, which describes 5 fatal shootings. All but one were by preschoolers, not toddlers, which ruins the alliteration. And the article cherry-picks data from 2013; terrorism deaths are considerably higher if you include other years (even excluding 2001). I'd classify this as a catchy link title, not an accurate statement.
digitalengineer 13y ago
What terrorists? Did you read the article? "Today, the use of this sort of force is in too many jurisdictions the first option for serving search warrants instead of the last. SWAT teams today are used to break up poker games and massage parlors, for immigration enforcement, even to perform regulatory inspections."
- SkyMarshal 13y ago
  Sarcasm.
  - rfnslyr 13y ago
    In ASCII. Totally works.
    - angersock 13y ago
      It's a new header type in the HTTP/2.0 spec.
      - schrodingersCat 13y ago
        And people say the standard isn't interesting
        angersock 13y ago
        See! You used it right there, and my browser didn't even display it--must be conforming.

cypherpunks01 13y ago

FYI Two days ago there was a very extensive discussion on a Salon article which was an excerpt of this book: “Why did you shoot me? I was reading a book” (salon.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6001843 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6001843

tehwalrus 13y ago
Thanks, I didn't connect the dots here (I had read the Salon article.)

Shivetya 13y ago

Simple, do you see the limits to preventive actions they can take in most cities? Have you read how "rights" activist are going to strip NYC cops from doing just that which has resulted in an incredible drop in murders and similar crimes? We got there because we stopped police from policing and instead forced them to respond to situations left to build until they explode. We got there by telling them, no you can't look at that guy because of where he lives, where he doesn't live, his skin color, the type of clothing he wears, or such.

mercurial 13y ago
I'm not sure of what you're trying to say here. Is it OK for the police to harass people because they're black, or sport a beard, or wear the wrong T-shirt? That's what you call "preventive policing"?
- dsr_ 13y ago
  You can't deny the effectiveness of putting everyone in jail.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - gknoy 13y ago
    You must have a different definition of "effective" than I do. Prison is like graduate school for criminal behavior.
    - drharris 13y ago
      He didn't say they get back out.
      - dragonwriter 13y ago
        Crime still happens in jail. If you put everyone (presumably, except for the jail guards) in jail, you don't reduce the crime rate, you increase it and change the location.

kevincennis 13y ago

"But whether it's with the ubiquity of these SWAT raids, stop-and-frisk, or the default geared-up, Robocop response to political protest, the relationship between police and the public on the whole is growing increasingly antagonistic -- and oddly, this comes during a period when both crime and on-duty police deaths are at historic lows." Author seems to completely miss the possibility that this is causal. Edit: Just see gizmo686's comment below. Pretty much sums up my line of thinking.

drzaiusapelord 13y ago
Or maybe the author doesn't want to pull something completely out his ass? Isn't this what we criticize journalists for? Especially in social sciences reporting? There has been a lot of spilled ink regarding why big city crime has been going down with lots of decent theories (abortion access, gentrification, easier access to higher education, smarter policing, larger prison population, etc) and I've never really heard that heavy handed SWAT tactics account for this.
- gizmo686 13y ago
  But the author is making a claim that this is a contradiction. There is an obvious explanation that disagrees with the author that was ommited. That is exactly what we complain about in journalism.
king_jester 13y ago
If you want to say its causal, you are going to have to show some kind of evidence that it is. The author is correct not to make that leap since they don't have any such evidence or info to provide on that point.
chipotle_coyote 13y ago
I suspect that what you're intending to assert is the possibility that lower crime and higher police survival rates are due to the access the police have to better, "military-style" weapons, and you're accusing the author of missing that possibility. But that's not what the thesis of the sentence you quoted above is. The thesis is "it is odd that the relationship between police and the public on the whole is growing increasingly antagonistic." For that relationship to be casual, that would mean that lower crime and higher police survival rates are due to the practice of responding to illegal poker games among retirees at the Elks Lodge with the same degree of force as they'd use to take down an international drug cartel.

vondur 13y ago

A large number of police officers are former military personnel. It's not surprising that this militarized philosophy is common among police today.

ihsw 13y ago
This is an awful generalization, there are many veterans that see this as excessive and abhorrent. They left the Middle East to trade the military environment for quiet(er) civilian life.
- arh68 13y ago
  Yet they presumably chose to join the military, right? Is it really excessive and abhorrent to suggest that those who decide to join the military would tend towards militarized philosophies? They're not saints.
  - tomgirl1 13y ago
    It is absolutely not true that local police forces are largely ex-military, or even close. They are by and large civil servants who have been handed a federally subsidized budget of military grade armaments from the dept of homeland security and been "militarized" by the federal govt. Tanks, automatic weapons, helicopters, bulletproof vests, helmets, armor piercing ammunition, bomb squads, all provided by the federal arms dealers. Any idea that the militarization of local and state police is driven by ex-veterans is not only factually wrong but a crazy excuse for the fact that the US federal government has been training them to militarize themselves. And once they have these toys, you might expect them to feel pretty powerful just for having them. In fact, I think you could make the opposite case, that actual veterans if they made up the police force would respect the constitution and would never treat US citizens on US soil in this manner.
- mabhatter 13y ago
  Real MILITARY soldiers are subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice... Which is somewhat stricter and includes a lot of rules that are unconstitutional for crvilians. They also don't get to form unions, they get a chin of command and that's it. They break ORDERS and they get Courtmartialed. Our militarized police like to call the rest of us "civilians" but they run straight to their Union when any superior calls them out, and they hide behind the same lawyers as the rest of us and ask for favors from the prosecutor and court. We need to keep the teacher unions and break the police unions up, then subject them to higher standards of conduct, and LOWER standards of defense and evidence... We have allowed them to become a wild pack of dogs and they need caged up, put back on the leash, or put down.

cousin_it 13y ago

During the 2011 protests in Russia, some people suggested that the government benefits from bad relations between the public and the police, because the government is afraid that the police will side with the public during mass protests. Though I guess that problem is much less severe in the US.

dclowd9901 13y ago
Given how the situation is playing out in Egypt, I'd say this assessment is spot-on.

dobbsbob 13y ago

Google the story about 7 cops in VA that went after a 17yr old girl because she was carrying non alcoholic fruit soda the cops thought were wine coolers. They handled this by breaking through her car windows guns drawn like they were seals going after bin laden lol.

chc 13y ago
Actually, it was a 20-year-old college student with a 12-pack of water, and they failed to break her windows because she drove away when the crowd of large men ran up and started beating on her car, and then they charged her with assault.
- hfsktr 13y ago
  Link for those who want the details: http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/state-regional/abc-asks-state-police-to-probe-arrest-over-bottled-water/article_cf527064-e88c-11e2-aae0-001a4bcf6878.html http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/state-regional/abc-asks-st...
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    "She and her roommates say they panicked, dialed 911 and tried to drive to a police station." Christ, if that is somebodies genuine reaction after having an encounter with the police, then it is plainly the police involved that should be charged and arrested. "one felony count of eluding police." Fucking hell...
- Moral_ 13y ago
  The charges were dropped.
  - matwood 13y ago
    a) The charges should have never been filed. b) The police should have been suspended and/or fired. Even if the girl did buy a 12 pack of beer, the level of force used was beyond excessive for the crime they thought occurred.

run4yourlives 13y ago

Since I can't flag the story, I'd like someone to explain to me how in the hell they consider this "Hacker News". Seriously, this article, and all 22 comments of this discussion belong on reddit.

diydsp 13y ago
From [1], "McKenzie Wark talks about the new class of hackers, a direct social manifestation of the intellectual property laws. According to Wark hackers are the people capable of forcing the sign/information system to creatively transform." Since hackers transform the sign/information system, they inherently infringe upon AND establish authority. This puts us incidentally in the same position as other authority, such as police. [1] http://ramocki.net/ramocki-diy.pdf http://ramocki.net/ramocki-diy.pdf
- run4yourlives 13y ago
  What in god's name does that have to do with the article that was posted?
mindstab 13y ago
If you think limited freedom cultures are good for our work go on ahead ignoring this stuff. Or realize that we generally need a good free society to work in and flourish in and these are all precursor warnings to more political crack downs that could drastically curb the hacker scene in the US. There are already increased cases of security researchers getting the SWAT treatment followed by jail. Who thinks thats good. These articles are digging deeper into the why this is happening trying to look for ways to prevent it before it tanks the US tech scene. I'd say that's relevant but if you disagree put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and wait another decade and we'll see
- run4yourlives 13y ago
  If you think limited freedom cultures are good for our work go on ahead ignoring this stuff. I exist outside of HN. HN though is where I want to see technology articles and discussion, not politics. From the guidelines: Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon.

Spooky23 13y ago

The SWAT issue is a different issue IMO, more related to politicians wanting to "do something" at the Federal and State levels. "Doing something" translates to "allocate funding". That money can pay for more cops/overtime, or stuff. Or it may be earmarked by a congressman whose donor makes light tanks to only buy tanks. The us vs. them stuff is related to the state of affairs in high-crime communities. Cops can't relate to the people they interact with (and vice versa) because they essentially live in different societies -- they might as well be different planets. If a policeman has access to body armor and machine guns to serve a warrant on some guy in a house, he will take them along. The cop has no idea who may be behind a door when they knock -- they may be intoxicated/high, have a vicious pit bull, or just be a scared kid with a gun and nothing to lose. The policeman wants to go home to see his kids at the end of his shift.

jimzvz 13y ago
If a policeman has access to body armor and machine guns to serve a warrant on some guy in a house, he will take them along. The cop has no idea who may be behind a door when they knock -- they may be intoxicated/high, have a vicious pit bull, or just be a scared kid with a gun and nothing to lose. The policeman wants to go home to see his kids at the end of his shift. Uh, shouldn't this information be available based on some kind of investigation that the warrant is based on? This argument leads to the "shoot first, ask questions later" ethos. It is exactly what leads to innocent people and animals being murdered by police. The police should not shift the risks of their job on to the public.
- Spooky23 13y ago
  Easy for a guy sitting in a chair in front of a computer to say. I'm not justifying the behavior, I'm trying to illuminate why it's happening. You're attributing responsibility for a situation to people who don't make decisions. Society has made choices (let's move to the burbs to get away from those poor folk) and your representatives have enacted laws that have created all sorts of absurd situations. And we drop policemen into the middle of the chaos to exert some control over it.

rayiner 13y ago

How did we get here? When gangs and organized crime turned the cities into war zones in the 1970's and 1980's.

princess3000 13y ago
Actually the militarization of the police force comes from a coordinated effort to repurpose military hardware for domestic police use. [1] Kind of funny that the gear used to fight one terrible war overseas is sent back to our own country and used to fight another terrible war domestically, huh? [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/program-1033-military-equipment-police-2011-12 http://www.businessinsider.com/program-1033-military-equipme...
- rayiner 13y ago
  That's a relatively recent phenomenon that comes at the tail end of something that has been happening for many decades now.
parfe 13y ago
The existence of drug organizations is a capitalist response to government intervention in the market. Prohibition is the source of the black drugs market as well as the reason the police militarized themselves.
- lukifer 13y ago
  It is impossible to outlaw drugs. Attempting to do so merely increases the price by increasing the risk, resulting in unending escalatio. http://longnow.org/seminars/02010/may/03/deviant-globalization/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02010/may/03/deviant-globalizati...
roc 13y ago
Then why did the practice only catch on and spread like wild-fire after crime had already begun its plunge? And why, after crime has continued to drop dramatically, has SWAT-ification continued to increase (if not accelerated) rather than plateau or even drop in response?

DanielBMarkham 13y ago

Somewhat tangential: There has long been a tie-in between the military and the police. Former military members make an easier transition to the police, and a lot of policemen have a strong weekend-warrior, macho mentality and like big guns and things that go boom. Plus the rank system is similar, there's use of deadly force, and so on. The U.S. has also seen major mission creep in the military. Instead of going in and bringing a devastating kinetic assault to an enemy in order to get them to surrender, now we're in the mission of Counter-Insurgency (COIN), nation-building, handing out candy to kids, and air-lifting supplies in to earthquake victims. Because of all of that, I think we need a new branch of the armed forces specifically set aside for nation-building, humanitarian relief, and so forth. It's a completely different mission from the other branches, and deserves its own budget, training, and voice. Then, civilian police forces should only pull military members from that branch. We need to separate the warrior mentality from the protect and serve, community-friendly mentality. Some organizational re-alignment may help.

winthrowe 13y ago
Here's a TED talk discussing such a military realignment: http://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_barnett_draws_a_new_map_for_peace.html http://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_barnett_draws_a_new_map_for_...
kps 13y ago
The US military did do extensive nation-building in Europe and Japan after WWII. (I have it from my father, a 4-year-old German at war's end, that candy was most definitely involved.) I would argue that the difference is that, then, the military was expected and allowed to win the war first.
dkarl 13y ago
I wouldn't say the military has seen mission creep. Their job was always to stay until the fighting was over and the mission was accomplished. The difference is that we've found ourselves in conflicts where the fighting doesn't stop, and the mission might be "accomplished" now and then but it never stays that way. Judging by our recent conflicts, it's wishful thinking to try to separate the duties of fighting and interacting with civilians, and I think the new branch of the armed forces you're talking about is basically what the current U.S. Army is trying to be. Any nation-building and humanitarian relief force we create will have to deal with ambushes, mortar attacks, RPGs, and assaults on their bases, so it's not like they won't be fighters (and inevitably killers.) Honestly, I think the army, along with a handful of progressive city police departments, will solve the problem of community policing long before most local U.S. law enforcement agencies. The army has greater ability to control and change its culture. It won't happen overnight, but we can hope that eventually U.S. cops will learn to respect their neighbors across town by the example of how U.S. soldiers treat people from the other side of the world. The army will also learn how to assess soldiers' fitness for interaction with civilians, which will have interesting implications for law enforcement.

makerops 13y ago

The job of the US' domestic police force is to serve and protect; the job of the military is to defend the nation against foreign enemies. When police forces become militaristic, the citizens become the foreign enemy.

justinator 13y ago
The job of the US domestic police force is to serve and protect the status quo (NOT individuals). Be against that, and you're against the police. Police aren't paid to care what the status quo is, but the status quo pay the police. And who is the status quo (ask yourself) The methods they use to protect and serve that ideal just need to be one step less that what the masses will absolutely tolerate. If they cross that line, you get a riot. Police violate individual citizen rights all the time and usually it's just ignored. It's a sorry state of affairs. That's why I'm afraid of police and police actions.

fixxer 13y ago

I'm in constant awe of the state of fear in this country.

splrb 13y ago

Anything that keeps us scared and submissive works well for the plutocracy. Citizens should never think that they live in a neighborhood, oh no, they live in a terrorist infested war zone.

Caskman 13y ago

"There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people" -Commander William Adama, Battlestar Galactica

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
arh68 13y ago
Do you think it matter if veterans were disallowed from joining law enforcement? Without getting into constitutionality arguments, would it really make the country safer for all its citizens (and not just those lucky enough to never be confronted by cops)?

bicknergseng 13y ago

In the interest of playing devil's advocate, couldn't the fact that we have 94 guns per 100 Americans have something to do with it? To be honest, the cops that work in Oakland, Compton, Detroit, Chicago, and many other cities effectively are fighting wars with heavily armed gangs, etc. I don't know that I buy the notion that police are the way they are today because of the Civil Rights Movement and Vietnam protests. Seems to me like the rise of inner city violence is a far bigger mover. Not trying to justify militarized police, just trying to understand the reasons why in order to logically approach alternatives.

cobrausn 13y ago
America has always had that many guns, but the police weren't always militarized. In addition, the amount of crime and number of police killed in the line of duty has steadily decreased over the years. The devil's advocate in me wonders if the number of police killed is reduced because of the heavy use of SWAT whenever they think there might be any threat to an officer in a raid.
- bicknergseng 13y ago
  America hasn't always had as many guns as it has now, nor the population density. Emphasis on population density and urbanification.
  - cobrausn 13y ago
    In regards to the first point, yes, there are more guns. I don't think the percentage of the population that owns 1 or more firearms has increased significantly.
roc 13y ago
> "Seems to me like the rise of inner city violence is a far bigger mover." What rise? Crime, inner city included, has been plunging, nationwide, for decades now. Major city crime rates are approaching fifty year lows.

enko 13y ago

You can't make this shit up. > Police in North Dakota borrowed a $154 million MQ-9 Predator B drone from the Department of Homeland Security to arrest a family of anti-government separatists who refused to return six cows that wandered onto their farm.

blhack 13y ago
That's really misleading. There is a base in Grand Forks, ND that houses several CBP (Customs and Border Patrol) Predator Drones, and they work with local law enforcement when asked to. So, more than likely, the drone is going to be flying home here anyway, and made a pass over some property. The facility where these things are flown from isn't some top secret bunker or anything, it's an office building on the air force base, and they give tours to local schools[1]. A local cop probably just stood behind one of the pilots while they flew over the property and spotted the cows. Also: to somebody who didn't grow up in this area, that probably sounds really silly...but keep in mind that cows are worth a couple of thousand dollars each. So you're talking, low end, about $12,000 worth of property that they won't return. That's like having a stolen car. -- I think something like this (flying a UAV, since CBP doesn't actually fly drones) should require a search warrant, but this is a totally reasonable use of resources IMHO. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, I guess. [1]: They'd probably give a tour to anybody that asked, actually. Grand Forks is home to one of the biggest and best Aviation and Aerospace engineering schools in the world[2], and it would surprise me if there wasn't a relationship between the air force base there, and the school. If any HNers are ever up there, I'd suggest asking for a tour. [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Odegard_School_of_Aerospace_Sciences http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Odegard_School_of_Aeros...
- enko 13y ago
  Well, it's quoting from the ACLU feature. The headline does take a certain stance, but 10 years ago it would sound like some joke headline from Robocop. I'm not a US citizen but if I was I'd love to take that tour.
- rickdale 13y ago
  I don't think the comment is misleading at all. I think its pretty accurate and makes a succinct point about the current state of affairs.

matt__rose 13y ago

David Simon and Ed Burns wrote the following passage for the TV show, "The Wire" spoken by Bunny Colvin: <<<< I mean, you call something a war and pretty soon everybody gonna be running around acting like warriors. They gonna be running around on a damn crusade, storming corners, slapping on cuffs, racking up body counts. And when you at war, you need a fucking enemy. And pretty soon, damn near everybody on every corner is your fucking enemy. And soon the neighborhood that you're supposed to be policing, that's just occupied territory. >>>> This was written in 2004. With the passage of time, it seems more and more prescient.

yardie 13y ago
It's not prescient because that is how it's been in predominantly black neighbourhoods. Black people have been saying this for the last 2-3 decades through protests, riots, and community organisers. It's only now that everyone has a cameraphone and a Youtube account do you get to see what's been going on. Even well respected actor, Levar Burton, knows how to act in front of police. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=M-ckDJ3xTaE https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=M-ck.... For black people we go into every encounter with the police thinking this might be my last moment on earth.
- mabhatter 13y ago
  Being as its Levar... His famous role was in Roots as the slave that kept getting lashed for not taking a proper English name from his owner over and over if he would just say his English name... So its more than a little ironic that THIS actor makes a video about how to be properly submissive to his mas'ers! It just sad that he would have to make a video like that because most of his TV time has been spent reading books to children. He's about as threatening as Mr. Rogers and still gets the jackboot.

known 13y ago

Cop/Soldiers are banned from thinking out of the box

nostromo 13y ago

Crime is at an all-time low yet spending on police is near an all-time high. (Those factors could have a causal relationship, but I doubt it's the primary cause based on reading "The Better Angels of Our Nature".) http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1950_2010USp_12s1li011mcn_50t http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1950_2010... Having big budgets but less crime means these swollen budgets end up being wasted on a lot of "fun" things like military gear. (Did you know that Wisconsin has two anti-terrorism centers? One in Madison and one in Milwaukee.) I think this has something to do with politicians being unable to touch the budgets of first responders. Tangentially, due to stringent building codes, the number and severity of fires has been dropping dramatically over time. Yet spending on fire protection only goes one way: up. http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1950_2010USp_12s1li011mcn_52t http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1950_2010... Today in the US, if you call 911 about an emergency medical condition, they will often send a fire engine along with an ambulance and a cop. It makes me wonder if firemen and firewomen are so underutilized they've ended up with mostly make-work.

rayiner 13y ago
> Crime is at an all-time low yet spending on police is near an all-time high. Two words: public unions.
- mpyne 13y ago
  I'm not opposed to unions in general, but there are definitely some specific ones our labor relations dept. could point out that would correlate very well with your point.
- wwhitman 13y ago
  Is it inconceivable that crime is lower due to more police on the streets and more criminals in jail?
  - rayiner 13y ago
    I think that's true, but I also think it's true that it would be possible for police forces to demobilize a bit, instead of continuing their ramp-up. It's like invading Iraq. The police went in and broke the criminal gangs and organized crime. What's needed now is nation building, so to speak. The crime that's left is leaderless gangs of youths shooting each other up in turf wars, and SWAT teams aren't the answer to that.

caycep 13y ago

It would be interesting to get a lot of data (HN specialty!) looking at the breakdown of all the different approaches. It seems like there are 2 extremes, and a wide variety from place to place. Certain parts of NYC has seen amazingly drops in violent crime due to more "community-oriented" policing that requires officers to integrate themselves into the fabric of the neighborhoods in their precincts (I think it's NYC...). On the other end, you have that Salon article about SWAT teams gone willy nilly. Some basic correlations, and visualizations showing comparative effectiveness of the different techniques could go a long way....

nrivadeneira 13y ago

One of my best friends is NYPD working in the projects in Brownsville NY, one of the most dangerous cities in NYC. From the stories he tells me, he is fighting a war. Of course, that's not applicable to most other areas, but it's worth noting that when your day-to-day job is dealing with the criminals and scum of the earth, it changes your perspective on life.

gizmo686 13y ago
There is at least two sides to every war. Dissarmerment has to start somewhere.
coopdog 13y ago
But are they criminals just because drugs are illegal, and they got sent to prison where crime is all they learned? Has the adversarial relationship been heightened by both sides? When you send the police to war, the people become the enemy. The goal should be deterring the behavior not taking these people down and stomping them hard in retribution.
qohen 13y ago
Forgive my pedantry, but: dangerous as it is, Brownsville is not a city, but rather a neighborhood of Brooklyn, NY: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownsville,_Brooklyn
- nrivadeneira 13y ago
  You are correct, but not forgiven. Sometimes I wonder why no mistake may go uncorrected on the internet...

D9u 13y ago

Here in Hawai'i, we're lucky to have small communities, from which many of our police officers are enlisted, thus maintaining more of sense that we are all part of the same class, as well as the fact that many officers are related to people in the communities, so there is less disconnection and stratification than one would see in larger metropolitan areas. I've been on both sides of the law here, and have always been treated with the utmost respect and humanity, even when I didn't deserve such. (a couple of drunken incidents, which will shame me for the rest of my days) Sure our local police force has an armored, Lenco Bearcat, which they rarely use, but such measures are necessary in today's world - where criminals possess military-grade weapons. This is not to say that I disagree with the article, as it's plain to see that the points made in the article are valid for a large portion of the USA. I guess all I can say is... Lucky we live Hawai'i!

mililani 13y ago
I find that hard to believe. I grew up in Hawaii, and I have come across lots of dick head cops engaging in some heinous activities. I have several friends from Oahu who would also agree with my statement.
- D9u 13y ago
  O'ahu is NOT the Big Island... But the Big Island is Hawai'i, and I've lived on this island for my entire life, with the exception of military service.

alan_cx 13y ago

Not a flippant comment...... I blame Hollywood. I honestly do. They glamorize and hero worship mega violent law breaking cops, while at the same time portraying criminals as super beings with government like resources, who always lose due to the violent law breaking cops. The people in the end believe this to be a vaguely true, even though in their lives they rarely see it, most cops are in fact fairly decent professionals, and criminals are average to dumb folk with bugger all resources, while the cops think they look crap compared to the Hollywood versions, and want more powers and toys. No? Well, I'm yet to see a credible argument as to why adverts influence us, but movies don't. One of those special people who claim ads dont work on you? Simply, I don't believe you. Every one reckons that, yet ads work.

yk 13y ago
You are missing a news industry, who secretly want a Micheal Bay like special effects budget .
- alan_cx 13y ago
  Very good point. Yes, they do dress up news like an action movie. That most obvious and grating feature of this is the emotional music they now play over news and documentaries. Also, they way enemies are completely demonized and dehumanized, and the good guys worshiped. And when a lead character goes off script, they really freak out.
cadasfafad 13y ago
I think it's not just that Hollywood movies are influencing the Police, although that is part of it. Art both reflects and influences culture. It's hard to separate out causes and effects, although it's clear there is a problem here. American culture as a whole places a ridiculous emphasis on empowerment through violence. It's everywhere; films, tv, books, music, punditry, news reporting, people's attitudes and idle conversation. A huge proportion of narratives resolve themselves through heroic violence. Often a heroic character will find inner strength through physical violence (and often inner strength means becoming murderously callous). If you take a step back and look at it critically, it is rather absurd. In the real world true empowerment comes from intelligence and leadership skills. In the real world, having to kill lots of people would be very traumatic (at least for a well adjusted person). I don't think it's as simple as violent movies causing violence. I think the real dangers come from the unspoken assumptions, the things that movies take for granted, which then become part of everyday thinking.

base698 13y ago

Relevant via The Wire: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA5za4VsskM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA5za4VsskM

socialist_coder 13y ago

Yet another reason to not have guns in your house. If you get raided by overzealous police that don't even identify themselves properly, and you have a gun that you try to use for self defense... EOF

gizmo686 13y ago
In other words, you shouldn't have a gun because some scary men might break into your house and point their guns at you.
- lmm 13y ago
  You shouldn't have a gun except for things you care about more than your and others' lives. Having one makes it far more likely for a violent encounter to escalate into a lethal one.

mrjaeger 13y ago

As with everything else it seems to be a case of misplaced incentives, both good and bad. Imagine in 2 out of every 100 raids (numbers completely made up of course) that these style raids are called for - the people inside are incredibly dangerous and bargin in unannounced is the safest thing to do. Based on what I've read these police forces seem to treat every situation like this. Whether a hardened criminal or some dude playing poker with his friends they assume the worst and barge in guns a blazing. And what happens? 2 times out of 100 they nail the bad guys and are probably congratulated on the local news and within the department. And the other 98 times? Nothing. They hand out some minor violations and leave, none the worse for it. Or again that's what it seems the case is based on these articles. So why wouldn't they just barge in and do whatever the hell they want. They are either heroes or the people they are terrorizing have no way to fight back. There needs to be some way to either punish them for this or positively incentivize more civil raids/raiding at all. As the financial crisis showed us, bankers would bet the country if it meant they get a bigger bonus. It seems we are a point where the police will essentially do the same.

aidos 13y ago

It's interesting to contrast the approach taken in different countries. I spent the majority of my life in New Zealand but the last 9 years in the UK so I've witnessed it first hand. Within the first couple of months of arriving here (London) I had attended several large gatherings, for example festivals in and out of London, and there was a marked difference in the police handling. I was genuinely surprised when I realised that the police controlling the events were interested in the safety and enjoyment of the public. They weren't looking to stir up trouble, they weren't searching for the "bad eggs" to antagonise - they were just trying to do their best to control the situation by working with those involved. In my time in NZ I saw the police carry out all sorts of actions that were completely unnecessary. I saw someone arrested for overloading a car with people leaving a party - prior to that I watched the police insist that the driver allow the car to be overloaded in the first place. I was once tripped from behind by the police (on the pavement) for walking alongside a protest on my way home from University. Might not seem like big issues but I've seen countless similar examples where the police were actually responsible for instigating the problem. There's very much an Us vs Them attitude in NZ that, thankfully, isn't the norm in the UK (for the moment).

lostlogin 13y ago
What city were you in? I haven't experienced anything like this - but I've always been in Auckland. That sounds bad.

kunil 13y ago

Oh boy you have to visit Turkey sometime. It is not just war, it is a religious war! They attack people while chanting "Allah Allah Allah...".

tomgirl1 13y ago

What about the concept of vulnerability? Overwhelming force draws people (rightly so) into believing an injustice has been done. What police should be doing is being rudimentary members of the community at large. That is being just as vulnerable as the rest of us. We have all seen the situation where a traffic cop gets killed by someone they stopped for speeding and has a warrant and kills the cop. Then the state police go crazy and embark on a manhunt which can and has had collateral damage. As if because that policeman died that a mob of local and state police can avenge the death of one of their own at any cost. This is a sick psychological proposition, if police can unleash a vigilante hell against citizens when someone shoots or injures one of them, then why cant citizens do the same without repercussions? The police state is setting a very bad example for the rest of us. If police were part of the community in the same sense of being vulnerable to the same bad forces the rest of us are, they would command a lot more respect and be seen as our protectors, but as it stands they have adopted the overwhelming force of stormtroopers. As a result the respect they attempt to pursue from shooting dogs, breaking down doors, driving humvees, shutting down streets, invading homes with no-knock warrants, targeting people with no facts, will only erode their standing in our society while putting more people in jail unjustly, but also deny citizens from having any rights based on our national constitution. And Washington will call it a debate.