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I'm not a lawyer (nor an expert on payments) but generally it doesn't seem to have any element of fraud - it's collecting payment for services fairly rendered v

I'm not a lawyer (nor an expert on payments) but generally it doesn't seem to have any element of fraud - it's collecting payment for services fairly rendered via the credit card account provided by the customer. Fraud would involve some kind of intentional deception. If their was fraud, you could get a chargeback, and I don't see that happening very often.

corresation 13y ago
An important point is that it isn't for services rendered -- it's for services to be rendered in the future on receipt of payment. At the point of billing I owed them $0, and had received no service from them. A credit card number is the compound of the number and expiry day, and they essentially fabricated a new expiry date. There are whole industries built around billing people for services they don't actually want, and this is just an example of it. I completely understand that it is normal across the industry, but it is incredibly scummy and puts deception and evasion ahead of providing actual value.
- tomkarlo 13y ago
  This depends a lot on the particulars of the individual subscription agreement. But in most cases, you owe for the services once the new subscription period starts, not when payment is received. (In most cases, your card company actually pays long after the services are rendered (30-60 days), anyway.) You're saying this is a service you don't want, but it's unclear how the provider is supposed to guess that. You signed up for it, you haven't cancelled it, and now they're going to provide it and then seek payment for it. The failure to cancel is on you, not the provider. Even if you cancelled the card outright, in most good ToS, they'd still have a right to bill you directly for the service if you don't cancel. Let's say I run a gym and you're a signed up member. If a new month starts, and you've got an active account, even if your card expires I'm still going to bill you for the month unless you come and tell me you want to cancel your membership. The two things are unrelated.
pbhjpbhj 13y ago
You provide payment using the card. The card expires and can't - supposedly - be used beyond the expiry date to make a payment. There is no expectation of continued payment beyond the expiry date. Guessing the new expiry date in order to exact a payment is taking an unauthorised payment. It can't be authorised because the card-holder can't authorise payments beyond the expiry date. Taking a payment that isn't authorised by the card-holder by guessing some of the details of a card against the expectations of the card-holder appears to be fraudulent to me.
- tomkarlo 13y ago
  No, you provided initial payment using the credit card account, but you signed up for the service until you cancel it, not until your method of payment expires. Even if you cancelled the card outright, you're generally technically (and legally) still on the hook for a subscription if you don't go and cancel. Read the ToS for just about any recurring subscription. It's your obligation to cancel, not their obligation to guess when you want to cancel. Honestly, I'm not sure how that's unfair; it's not a service provider's business to interpret your payment methods and how they might map to your desire to cancel or retain a service. The only reason most services don't bother to pursue payment for expired cards is because it's not economic to do so. So when a card expires, they eventually mark the account as overdue and disable it. That's not the same as a clean cancellation; technically you still owe them for the services rendered between the last invoice and the final cancellation.
  - chii 13y ago
    interesting - so there is a business opportunity to collect these overdue amounts in large numbers, and exact the payment along with a "fine"…
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  - corresation 13y ago
    It's your obligation to cancel, not their obligation to guess when you want to cancel. You have a remarkably apologetic attitude towards a scumbag industry. Just to be clear, here's the modus operendi for the retention industry- 1) Trick or outright scam people into recurring subscriptions. I never told Consumer Reports I wanted my subscription to recur, and it provides absolutely zero value to me that they did so. If they hid text somewhere for this, it is a clear and obvious example that the industry desperately needs onerous rules and restrictions prohibiting this, such as a customer yearly opt in and double-positive recurrence opt-in (rather than some hidden subtext that oh by the way we have your credit card so have fun cancelling sucker). 2) Hide methods of cancelling said subscription behind as many layers as possibly: It is shocking how easy it is to sign up for many things versus what is needed to cancel the same (as if charges on my credit card are less of an issue for me than the possibility that online access might be temporarily delayed). In Consumer Reports case, you could not email or fill out an online form -- the single and only option was a limited hours telephone number that required lengthy wait times. They know that many people will avoid the time sucking tax. Xbox Live had a particularly hilarious system where not only did you have to phone a call center and sit on hold, your cancellation had to be immediate (despite the fact that all payments were for future services, when you disabled recurrence they immediately downgraded your account) which of course is meant to delay people from jumping through the hoops until the last day when they might forget or give up and boom, another month. While much noise was raised about Apple shaking down the subscription industry on the iOS platform, they will have to simply eat that cost because people like me have absolutely zero trust in the industry, and I greatly respect how Apple not only constantly reminds me of subscriptions, they make cancelling any of them the easiest thing in the world, so those services that want subscribers need to actually work Recurrence is a tax on the world. It is inefficient and obnoxious companies that turn their business model towards unsavoury tactics rather than actually providing value that keeps people from wanting to be their customer. 1) By reading this post you agree to subscribe to future posts at the economical cost of $14.49 per month, billed bi-annually.

corresation 13y ago

An important point is that it isn't for services rendered -- it's for services to be rendered in the future on receipt of payment. At the point of billing I owed them $0, and had received no service from them. A credit card number is the compound of the number and expiry day, and they essentially fabricated a new expiry date. There are whole industries built around billing people for services they don't actually want, and this is just an example of it. I completely understand that it is normal across the industry, but it is incredibly scummy and puts deception and evasion ahead of providing actual value.

tomkarlo 13y ago
This depends a lot on the particulars of the individual subscription agreement. But in most cases, you owe for the services once the new subscription period starts, not when payment is received. (In most cases, your card company actually pays long after the services are rendered (30-60 days), anyway.) You're saying this is a service you don't want, but it's unclear how the provider is supposed to guess that. You signed up for it, you haven't cancelled it, and now they're going to provide it and then seek payment for it. The failure to cancel is on you, not the provider. Even if you cancelled the card outright, in most good ToS, they'd still have a right to bill you directly for the service if you don't cancel. Let's say I run a gym and you're a signed up member. If a new month starts, and you've got an active account, even if your card expires I'm still going to bill you for the month unless you come and tell me you want to cancel your membership. The two things are unrelated.

pbhjpbhj 13y ago

You provide payment using the card. The card expires and can't - supposedly - be used beyond the expiry date to make a payment. There is no expectation of continued payment beyond the expiry date. Guessing the new expiry date in order to exact a payment is taking an unauthorised payment. It can't be authorised because the card-holder can't authorise payments beyond the expiry date. Taking a payment that isn't authorised by the card-holder by guessing some of the details of a card against the expectations of the card-holder appears to be fraudulent to me.

tomkarlo 13y ago
No, you provided initial payment using the credit card account, but you signed up for the service until you cancel it, not until your method of payment expires. Even if you cancelled the card outright, you're generally technically (and legally) still on the hook for a subscription if you don't go and cancel. Read the ToS for just about any recurring subscription. It's your obligation to cancel, not their obligation to guess when you want to cancel. Honestly, I'm not sure how that's unfair; it's not a service provider's business to interpret your payment methods and how they might map to your desire to cancel or retain a service. The only reason most services don't bother to pursue payment for expired cards is because it's not economic to do so. So when a card expires, they eventually mark the account as overdue and disable it. That's not the same as a clean cancellation; technically you still owe them for the services rendered between the last invoice and the final cancellation.
- chii 13y ago
  interesting - so there is a business opportunity to collect these overdue amounts in large numbers, and exact the payment along with a "fine"…
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- corresation 13y ago
  It's your obligation to cancel, not their obligation to guess when you want to cancel. You have a remarkably apologetic attitude towards a scumbag industry. Just to be clear, here's the modus operendi for the retention industry- 1) Trick or outright scam people into recurring subscriptions. I never told Consumer Reports I wanted my subscription to recur, and it provides absolutely zero value to me that they did so. If they hid text somewhere for this, it is a clear and obvious example that the industry desperately needs onerous rules and restrictions prohibiting this, such as a customer yearly opt in and double-positive recurrence opt-in (rather than some hidden subtext that oh by the way we have your credit card so have fun cancelling sucker). 2) Hide methods of cancelling said subscription behind as many layers as possibly: It is shocking how easy it is to sign up for many things versus what is needed to cancel the same (as if charges on my credit card are less of an issue for me than the possibility that online access might be temporarily delayed). In Consumer Reports case, you could not email or fill out an online form -- the single and only option was a limited hours telephone number that required lengthy wait times. They know that many people will avoid the time sucking tax. Xbox Live had a particularly hilarious system where not only did you have to phone a call center and sit on hold, your cancellation had to be immediate (despite the fact that all payments were for future services, when you disabled recurrence they immediately downgraded your account) which of course is meant to delay people from jumping through the hoops until the last day when they might forget or give up and boom, another month. While much noise was raised about Apple shaking down the subscription industry on the iOS platform, they will have to simply eat that cost because people like me have absolutely zero trust in the industry, and I greatly respect how Apple not only constantly reminds me of subscriptions, they make cancelling any of them the easiest thing in the world, so those services that want subscribers need to actually work Recurrence is a tax on the world. It is inefficient and obnoxious companies that turn their business model towards unsavoury tactics rather than actually providing value that keeps people from wanting to be their customer. 1) By reading this post you agree to subscribe to future posts at the economical cost of $14.49 per month, billed bi-annually.