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>> Imagine how funny I thought it was when they guessed my next expiry and just used that, continuing the subscription. They are not guessing the expiry date -

>> Imagine how funny I thought it was when they guessed my next expiry and just used that, continuing the subscription. They are not guessing the expiry date - I believe it is a service provided by some credit card companies, possibly to large merchants. It happened to me for several years with my Yahoo Email account - that would renew for $20 / year even though my card expired twice during that time. It stopped after I reported my card as lost/stolen - and got a replacement card, so the actual card number changed. Fastest - albeit a bit drastic - way to get out of a recurring billing if you are having trouble cancelling.

tomkarlo 13y ago
It's relatively easy to update the expiry date, since the month doesn't usually change. You just add two years, try the charge, and if it doesn't go through, wait a day and try it again with the next year. This is pretty standard for services with a recurring subscription model, and they don't really need to pay an outside provider for that info (although it would be trivial for any credit agency to provide.) That said, I'm not sure he can complain that a recurring subscription continued to, well, recur.
- corresation 13y ago
  That said, I'm not sure he can complain that a recurring subscription continued to, well, recur. Yes, I will complain. Intrinsic in the notion that I'm not bothering to update billing information after numerous updates telling me that it will cancel if I don't is the conclusion that the service, and billings, will cease. Credit cards have expiry dates for a reason, and ultimately it is fraud that they effectively manufactured my info for me.
  - tomkarlo 13y ago
    I'd check the wording of those updates. It's usually that your service may be interrupted if you fail to update your credit card when it expires. And usually, the terms of the site say that you're on the hook for the recurring charge even if your card fails to clear. You're hoping that the natural expiration cycle of your physical card - not the account - will impact a transaction that doesn't actually involve that physical implement. I can see where you're coming from, but I don't know that you really have a right to expect the expiration of your physical card to impact an existing business relationship with a third party that involves recurring charges (that you have likely agreed to pay regardless of your card's validity, or credit limit.) I've worked on these kinds of renewal systems for large sites and generally, users don't mind them because the reverse case - where 4% of the users lose access each month because their physical card expired - sucks for both the site and the end users who don't expect access to be cut off. If you want to use credit card changes as a shortcut for properly cancelling your subscription, you probably need to actually change the card number.
- pbhjpbhj 13y ago
  Isn't that fraud though.
  - tomkarlo 13y ago
    I'm not a lawyer (nor an expert on payments) but generally it doesn't seem to have any element of fraud - it's collecting payment for services fairly rendered via the credit card account provided by the customer. Fraud would involve some kind of intentional deception. If their was fraud, you could get a chargeback, and I don't see that happening very often.
    - corresation 13y ago
      An important point is that it isn't for services rendered -- it's for services to be rendered in the future on receipt of payment. At the point of billing I owed them $0, and had received no service from them. A credit card number is the compound of the number and expiry day, and they essentially fabricated a new expiry date. There are whole industries built around billing people for services they don't actually want, and this is just an example of it. I completely understand that it is normal across the industry, but it is incredibly scummy and puts deception and evasion ahead of providing actual value.
      - tomkarlo 13y ago
        This depends a lot on the particulars of the individual subscription agreement. But in most cases, you owe for the services once the new subscription period starts, not when payment is received. (In most cases, your card company actually pays long after the services are rendered (30-60 days), anyway.) You're saying this is a service you don't want, but it's unclear how the provider is supposed to guess that. You signed up for it, you haven't cancelled it, and now they're going to provide it and then seek payment for it. The failure to cancel is on you, not the provider. Even if you cancelled the card outright, in most good ToS, they'd still have a right to bill you directly for the service if you don't cancel. Let's say I run a gym and you're a signed up member. If a new month starts, and you've got an active account, even if your card expires I'm still going to bill you for the month unless you come and tell me you want to cancel your membership. The two things are unrelated.

tomkarlo 13y ago

It's relatively easy to update the expiry date, since the month doesn't usually change. You just add two years, try the charge, and if it doesn't go through, wait a day and try it again with the next year. This is pretty standard for services with a recurring subscription model, and they don't really need to pay an outside provider for that info (although it would be trivial for any credit agency to provide.) That said, I'm not sure he can complain that a recurring subscription continued to, well, recur.

corresation 13y ago
That said, I'm not sure he can complain that a recurring subscription continued to, well, recur. Yes, I will complain. Intrinsic in the notion that I'm not bothering to update billing information after numerous updates telling me that it will cancel if I don't is the conclusion that the service, and billings, will cease. Credit cards have expiry dates for a reason, and ultimately it is fraud that they effectively manufactured my info for me.
- tomkarlo 13y ago
  I'd check the wording of those updates. It's usually that your service may be interrupted if you fail to update your credit card when it expires. And usually, the terms of the site say that you're on the hook for the recurring charge even if your card fails to clear. You're hoping that the natural expiration cycle of your physical card - not the account - will impact a transaction that doesn't actually involve that physical implement. I can see where you're coming from, but I don't know that you really have a right to expect the expiration of your physical card to impact an existing business relationship with a third party that involves recurring charges (that you have likely agreed to pay regardless of your card's validity, or credit limit.) I've worked on these kinds of renewal systems for large sites and generally, users don't mind them because the reverse case - where 4% of the users lose access each month because their physical card expired - sucks for both the site and the end users who don't expect access to be cut off. If you want to use credit card changes as a shortcut for properly cancelling your subscription, you probably need to actually change the card number.
pbhjpbhj 13y ago
Isn't that fraud though.
- tomkarlo 13y ago
  I'm not a lawyer (nor an expert on payments) but generally it doesn't seem to have any element of fraud - it's collecting payment for services fairly rendered via the credit card account provided by the customer. Fraud would involve some kind of intentional deception. If their was fraud, you could get a chargeback, and I don't see that happening very often.
  - corresation 13y ago
    An important point is that it isn't for services rendered -- it's for services to be rendered in the future on receipt of payment. At the point of billing I owed them $0, and had received no service from them. A credit card number is the compound of the number and expiry day, and they essentially fabricated a new expiry date. There are whole industries built around billing people for services they don't actually want, and this is just an example of it. I completely understand that it is normal across the industry, but it is incredibly scummy and puts deception and evasion ahead of providing actual value.
    - tomkarlo 13y ago
      This depends a lot on the particulars of the individual subscription agreement. But in most cases, you owe for the services once the new subscription period starts, not when payment is received. (In most cases, your card company actually pays long after the services are rendered (30-60 days), anyway.) You're saying this is a service you don't want, but it's unclear how the provider is supposed to guess that. You signed up for it, you haven't cancelled it, and now they're going to provide it and then seek payment for it. The failure to cancel is on you, not the provider. Even if you cancelled the card outright, in most good ToS, they'd still have a right to bill you directly for the service if you don't cancel. Let's say I run a gym and you're a signed up member. If a new month starts, and you've got an active account, even if your card expires I'm still going to bill you for the month unless you come and tell me you want to cancel your membership. The two things are unrelated.