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So now is the time to identify the federal prosecutors who filed this and petition the government to have them fired. In addition, of course, to asking for a co

So now is the time to identify the federal prosecutors who filed this and petition the government to have them fired. In addition, of course, to asking for a complete pardon for Snowden. It also should be noted that any of the Congressional investigations into this mess are perfectly capable of giving Snowden a grant of immunity from prosecution. People ask what to do. There are at least two avenues open to nip this completely in the bud before prosecutors get rolling, and several other ways of notifying our elected representatives that going down this path is unacceptable. These are political charges, and as the governed we should stand up to the people who are supposed to be working for us and demand that they be dropped. Immediately.

B0Z 13y ago
Does anyone else smell "Friday Night News Dump"?
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Yes, though it is important to keep in mind that 40% of all sickdays are taken on Mondays or Fridays.
  - scw 13y ago
    Isn't Monday and Friday 40% of the work week?
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1996-04-17/ http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1996-04-17/ ;)
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  Yes, I am surprised at how quiet they've been this week. Must've grown tired of having every new denial answered with a new document showing them to be lying again.
- SCAQTony 13y ago
  In a way that is good indicator that they are beginning to worry their timing so as limit the political damage from the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
rdl 13y ago
I actually don't think charging him is inherently bad. If he in fact took 4 government property laptops with him, that's a crime, at the very least. Ideally, pre-trial investigation and a trial would be fair way to find facts. It's entirely possible minor crimes (violating classified NDA, taking laptops, etc.) would be non-conviction based on other information, but on its face, I don't really have a problem with initial steps to investigate. Congress would probably be a better venue for this than the courts, though. Being charged is also pretty much necessary for asylum somewhere, too. (not essential, but it strongly helps)
- vehementi 13y ago
  It's kind of hard to be a whistleblower without breaking some sort of secrecy law.
  - eli 13y ago
    There actually are whistleblower protections he could have taken advantage of... but it would have meant working within the system (for example, taking his concerns to Congress or the NSA's Inspector General rather than a reporter) and it only applies if he uncovered fraud or illegal activity. AFAIK there isn't any proof that he uncovered anything illegal.
    - tptacek 13y ago
      The national security establishment is more or less exempted from the whistleblower statutes.
      - rdl 13y ago
        Going to NSA IG or the PSCI's in Congress are protected (the whole point of NSA IG is internal malfeasance, it's not just for stealing cafeteria trays...). The problem is that route of reporting may be ineffective, and once you start, you'll lose all future access, come under suspicion, and may actually still be charged (the whistleblower stuff helps more with not getting convicted). I was originally thinking "he should have gone to IG/Congress rather than the press", but seeing the Binney/Drake/Wiebe interview where they all had gone through the IG/Congress process themselves, recognized they'd accomplished fuck-all, and supported Snowden's decision to go directly to the press/public, kind of convinced me. I personally might have considered going to someone else in government, other than IG or H/SPSCI -- like to Udall or Rand Paul or maybe even a judge or governor -- as more effective than the "official" channels, but less illegal than a journalist.
skwirl 13y ago
I don't think putting pressure on the government to fire the prosecutor who filed the petition is likely to work. A poll earlier this week found that the majority of Americans want Snowden charged and disapprove of what he has done. You need to start with petitioning your fellow Americans.
- stefanix 13y ago
  Was it one of these polls where they only call landlines? Not sure this means anything without exactly specifying how the poll was conducted.
  - skwirl 13y ago
    No. Most of the major polling organizations call cell phones now, except for automated ones like Rasmussen. This was from Pew. From http://www.people-press.org/methodology/our-survey-methodology-in-detail/ http://www.people-press.org/methodology/our-survey-methodolo...: "The typical Pew Research Center for the People & the Press national survey selects a random digit sample of both landline and cell phone numbers in all 50 U.S. states and the District of Columbia. As the proportion of Americans who rely solely or mostly on cell phones for their telephone service continues to grow, sampling both landline and cell phone numbers helps to ensure that our surveys represent all adults who have access to either (only about 2% of households in the U.S. do not have access to any phone)." Here are the full results: http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/17/public-split-over-impact-of-nsa-leak-but-most-want-snowden-prosecuted/ http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/17/public-split-over-imp... And just because it is interesting: "People under 30 are the only age group in which a clear majority (60%) says that the release of classified information about the NSA phone and email data collection program serves the public interest."
    - dllthomas 13y ago
      Though of course, people who are deeply concerned about their privacy are likely to be under-represented in any poll.
eli 13y ago
Huh? Why would the prosecutor be fired? And a Congressional pardon? Are you sure about that?
- sigzero 13y ago
  Neither of those is ever going to happen, petition or no petition.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    Of course, but that is a poor reason to not make your voice heard.
    - sigzero 13y ago
      Who do you think is reading that petition? I would postulate, only the signers. You also make it sound like that is the only way to get your voice "heard".
      - jlgreco 13y ago
        You're right, I've wasted 30 seconds of my life. I am now filled with regret.
      - cantos 13y ago
        I postulate that it would be a good place to start.
    - baddox 13y ago
      The fact that the time it takes to sign a petition is worth more than the effect it will have is a good reason to not make your voice heard.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
DanielRibeiro 13y ago
The pardon petition also only needs more 7k signatures: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snowden/Dp03vGYD?at93 https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snow... Remember that the goal is to get the government address the issue, and show that the people are not fine with the NSA's actions. It would be nice to get them to actually pardon him, but that is a much harder goal.
- evilduck 13y ago
  Has any whitehouse.gov petition ever led to actual action being taken?
  - exiva 13y ago
    The White House Honey Ale recipe was released from a we the people petition... So, no.
  - bobzimuta 13y ago
    https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/ale-chief-white-house-beer-recipe https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/ale-chief-white-ho...
  - bbatsell 13y ago
    Here are the ones I can recall off the top of my head: * CISPA veto threat/defeat [https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/cybersecurity-legislation-must-not-violate-americans-right-privacy https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/cybersecurity-legi...] * New open-access rules [https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/increasing-public-access-results-scientific-research https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/increasing-public-...] * Halting use of animals in military training [https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/immediately-halt-cruel-and-unnecessary-use-monkeys-army-chemical-casualty-management-training/tt2v2mc6 https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/immediately-halt-c...]
    - dragonwriter 13y ago
      The animals one obviously doesn't count [1], since the petition was created September 27th, 2011, and the order halting the use of animals was issued September 20th, 2011. [1] Barring time travel
zacharyvoase 13y ago
The role of the prosecutor is to prosecute the interests of the State, which in this case they have done. I’m wondering how grand juries play into this—the Fifth Amendment states that “no person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury” (except for those in the military, which I think he wouldn’t classify as). There’s a great article here which describes the power which Grand Juries used to wield in the indictment process, specifically the ability to act on their own, investigate, and actually challenge the federal prosecutor rather than just rubber-stamping each case: http://constitution.org/lrev/roots/runaway.htm http://constitution.org/lrev/roots/runaway.htm
- neurotech1 13y ago
  I remember reading several points(Wikipedia) 98% Grand Juries return an indictment, rarely narrowing or broadening the charges; 90% of Federal Criminal Cases are Plea Bargained before trial; 90% of Federal Criminal trials result in a conviction; This is why the Aaron Swartz was so wrong, once the prosecutor decided to overzealously present the charges to a grand jury, the odds were stacked against him. Snowden is in big trouble, because in this case its highly unlikely that President Obama will pardon him, although popularly requested to do so. So yes, the whole prosecution process has runaway from the original goal of justice.
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    Snowden will still be in HK courts after the next presidential election.
- betterunix 13y ago
  "The role of the prosecutor is to prosecute the interests of the State" One would think that, as public servants, their role is to prosecute in the interests of the public at large. That might mean going against the interests of the state, if the state is working against the public.
  - baddox 13y ago
krapp 13y ago
These are political charges, and as the governed we should stand up to the people who are supposed to be working for us and demand that they be dropped. Immediately. Did or did not Edward Snowden leak classified material to the press? Does or does not the government have a duty to attempt to prosecute him? You make it sound like he didn't actually break any laws, when he actually did break a couple. Whether the charges brought can be proven remains to be seen, but let's not assume this is a sham and a kangaroo court because you consider what Snowden did to be heroic. It may have been, but that still doesn't make it legal.
- gohrt 13y ago
  The executive has a duty to examine the situation and decide whether the NSA's activities were wrong, and whether Snowden was acting in the national interest when he leaked. Now every law is legal, that's why we have a Supreme Court. Ergo, not every lawbreak is illegal.
- eatitraw 13y ago
  Why such obsession about the law? Some laws are good, and that's good that they are enforced. Some laws are bad, and it is bad that they are enforced. The whole concept of "legality" is (sadly) appropriated by governments. The government invents the rules for itself and other organizations and individuums. They ca invent whatever rules they like. Gulag was perfectly legal. Nazi concentration camps were perfectly legal. It is stupid to assume that one's actions are bad just because they are against the law.
  - krapp 13y ago
    I'm not obsessed about the law. And honestly, I agree personally with everything Snowden did. I'm just disagreeing with the premise that even having a trial is itself unjust.
    - enraged_camel 13y ago
      If the trial is a mechanism to enforce the bad laws, of course it is unjust. The dictionary definition is justice is "the quality of being fair and reasonable." Is there anything fair ad reasonable about how Snowden is about to be treated?
deleted 13y ago
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blueprint 13y ago
How should we go about identifying the federal prosecutors?
- coolhandluke 13y ago
  The charging documents (which should be public) will contain an affirmation/confirmation section that includes the prosecutor's name and signature.
  - o0-0o 13y ago
    The charges are sealed.
joering2 13y ago
I have a great respect towards Snowden for what he did. Knowing his life will be over, he was brave enough to continue believing in his citizen's duty and pledge to the Constitution and all American people (not to the Administration that just happened to be more tyrannical as the days go by) and decided he couldn't stand the abuse anymore. I personally believe the only reason we do not have a full speed tyranny in this country and more wars with american troops involved all over the world is because of the people like Assange, Bradley and Snowden. They put a real time breaks on internal abuse; many times before pulling the trigger those in charge ask themselves: "damn what if another 'traitor' will leak this out and my name [and crimes] will come to the light?". We have grown very dangerous government that WE founded and WE continue to pay for and we seem to forget about that... But in NO MEANS the Government will EVER let him off the hook. Never. Its not that they are vicious or anything, its simply because the system is broken and corrupt to its inner core (by corruption I do not mean someone giving an envelope under the table to win some contract. I am talking about high ranked generals that with no serious evidence just by "believing we are protecting american people" are sending thousands on the war the they damn well know is not being waged in the name of security, but the name of satisfying Industrial Military Complex, in a monetary way). You can see military lock down of entire cities due to the riots on the streets, and yet they will not change their mind, because that would be a warm invitation to anyone else witnessing shit being done under government seal to come forward. It would be a total reboot of the system. Another 4th of July. And what they think about founding fathers [1] is not what you would assume they do. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oP1Ke70Mi8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oP1Ke70Mi8
- bertm 13y ago
  It happened in the 70s to Daniel Ellsberg, the Pentagon Paper's leaker. "Judge Byrne dismissed all charges against Ellsberg." "He and Russo faced charges under the Espionage Act of 1917 and other charges including theft and conspiracy, carrying a total maximum sentence of 115 years." -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg
  - georgemcbay 13y ago
    The charges against Ellsberg were dropped on what was basically a technicality, though.
deleted 13y ago
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nhangen 13y ago
I'm sure the prosecutors that filed this did so at the behest of their superiors, and/or the POTUS, Justice Department, and everyone with a dog in this fight. Going after them would probably be the best thing that could happen for the rest. Have to aim higher.
laureny 13y ago
> These are political charges What does this mean exactly? "Political charge" is absurd. Besides, are you seriously suggesting that a petition should be enough to drop criminal charges brought upon someone? That's not how things work in any civilized country. I tend to side with him at the moment but there is no way I will trust my judgment, or that of 90,000 angry online petition signers, to decide justice for me. Let the trial happen, let's see everything that's going on, this will bring up a lot of things up in the open. Maybe we'll find he's a hero and he's done nothing wrong, or maybe we'll find that he has sold intelligence to the Chinese or whatever. Either way, the right way is to go through the judiciary system.
throwaway10001 13y ago
So now is the time to identify the federal prosecutors who filed this and petition the government to have them fired. That's the wrong target, Snowden clearly broke the law, and that's what the prosecutors are alleging. You could argue that the laws are unjust (Call Congress!) and so on but apparently everything NSA did was rubber stamped by judges so they have the seal of approval. Snowden knows it too, he himself said that he will be made to suffer. Obama will never pardon him, imagine the precedent? He will have to take whatever is coming and let history judge him, espionage or civil disobedience?
saurabhnanda 13y ago
There's another way to demonstrate just how unhappy you are with the trampling of your basic rigthts. Guns. Go out on the streets in meaningful numbers brandishing unloaded guns to show the govt how serious you are about the issue. It's a much stronger form of protest IMO. (PS: I know I'll get downvoted for such radical comments, but moderation has stopped working with govts)
- krapp 13y ago
  What would even be the point if the guns weren't loaded? You shouldn't be willing to march en masse into the streets with weapons you're not prepared to use, otherwise it's an idle threat. Signs and slogans would literally be more useful. Then at least, the news media might report on the message and not the guns.
- alex_doom 13y ago
  Needs a better catch phrase like "You can take away my ability to share digital files that the public needs to know about when you pry them from my cold dead hands!"
logn 13y ago
People need to organize and protest, online and in person. That means, an organized blackout like SOPA/PIPA and organized public (in real life) protests. I like the whitehouse.gov petitions, but I don't know of an instance where they've helped anything (in their short history). The Baby Boomers got plenty done with protests. And Google/Wikipedia/etc stopped SOPA/PIPA with a massive online blackout. Of course, the tech industry largely benefits from intelligence spending, so I'm not sure how much of a protest could be organized online. Perhaps the users themselves need to boycott any company not opposed to surveillance (say, replacing their avatar with some indication of their boycott and deleting all their content). Also, I think we need the Republicans (or anyone) to impeach Obama, for the good of the country.
anigbrowl 13y ago
So now is the time to identify the federal prosecutors who filed this and petition the government to have them fired. For what, doing their jobs? Protest by all means, but demanding that prosecutors be fired for executing the law is just ridiculous.
- Amadou 13y ago
  I don't think it is all that ridiculous. Prosecutors have tremendous amounts of discretion regarding who they prosecute and what for. They aren't just "doing their jobs" they are explicitly targeting Snowden. The fact that it is their legal prerogative to do so does not necessarily make it ethically correct.
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    I would love to see some examples of people who have engaged in similar practices that we didn't bother to prosecute. Like people complaining about 'Obama's war on Leakers,' these assertions of prosecutorial vindictiveness are meaningless without context.
pinaceae 13y ago
hey, non-US citizen here. assuming you're a US citizen based on your "outrage". the point of your defence budget (how large is it again) is to project power through the military and intelligence services. it is ASTOUNDING that only now you seem to have realized what the US intelligennce apparatus is doing. of course they are collecting all the data, they are basically replicating google to be able to search within digital data. maybe only on foreigners, but what kind of stupid distinction is that? we have a found an al-kaida member, but he is US so hands off? welcome to the rest of the world. ever travelled? your data is one of many intelligence databases. i am human being, but somehow it is ok for you to spend gobs of money on monitoring ME, but once you realize it might affect YOU you suddenly get "outraged". seriously, what DID you THINK all those intelligence services with multi-billion budgets were DOING? looking forward to the protest by US neckbeards around the country. hope time-warner produces enough guy fawkes masks, should raise the price too. USA USA USA.
- zanny 13y ago
  Myself and plenty of other US citizens and residents understand the imperialistic tyrrany of the fed. The problem is that 90% of the population isn't engaged, is brainwashed by national news networks, and is complacent in their lives eating McDonalds and watching Desperate Housewives. They accept being exploited and the atrocities they vote in with their amazing public service of going to a polling place for 10 minutes every 2 or 4 years (and they never vote for their local mayors or judges). The only way anything would truly change in the USA is if that massive body that spans 2 deviations of income in both directions of the bell curve lost their ability to keep fattening themselves up or if they tv went out.
- kimlelly 13y ago
  "...your defence budget (how large is it again)" It's about the size of the 10 biggest following countries COMBINED! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_e... That is YOUR hard earned tax money at work AGAINST YOU.
  - timdev2 13y ago
rwmj 13y ago
The Rule of Law here pretty clearly says Snowdon should be charged, and convicted if guilty. The prosecutors are doing their jobs by arresting him. Pardoning him would be the Rule of Man. Just sayin' ..
deleted 13y ago
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theklub 13y ago
If someone can kickstart a fund for Turkey why can't get do it for Snowden? Lets get some full page ads out there!
yoster 13y ago
If everyone that disagreed decided to call and write our congressmen, they would definitely be listening. Too bad most of the country is too lazy to do this...

B0Z 13y ago

Does anyone else smell "Friday Night News Dump"?

jlgreco 13y ago
Yes, though it is important to keep in mind that 40% of all sickdays are taken on Mondays or Fridays.
- scw 13y ago
  Isn't Monday and Friday 40% of the work week?
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1996-04-17/ http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1996-04-17/ ;)
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
Yes, I am surprised at how quiet they've been this week. Must've grown tired of having every new denial answered with a new document showing them to be lying again.
SCAQTony 13y ago
In a way that is good indicator that they are beginning to worry their timing so as limit the political damage from the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free."

rdl 13y ago

I actually don't think charging him is inherently bad. If he in fact took 4 government property laptops with him, that's a crime, at the very least. Ideally, pre-trial investigation and a trial would be fair way to find facts. It's entirely possible minor crimes (violating classified NDA, taking laptops, etc.) would be non-conviction based on other information, but on its face, I don't really have a problem with initial steps to investigate. Congress would probably be a better venue for this than the courts, though. Being charged is also pretty much necessary for asylum somewhere, too. (not essential, but it strongly helps)

vehementi 13y ago
It's kind of hard to be a whistleblower without breaking some sort of secrecy law.
- eli 13y ago
  There actually are whistleblower protections he could have taken advantage of... but it would have meant working within the system (for example, taking his concerns to Congress or the NSA's Inspector General rather than a reporter) and it only applies if he uncovered fraud or illegal activity. AFAIK there isn't any proof that he uncovered anything illegal.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    The national security establishment is more or less exempted from the whistleblower statutes.
    - rdl 13y ago
      Going to NSA IG or the PSCI's in Congress are protected (the whole point of NSA IG is internal malfeasance, it's not just for stealing cafeteria trays...). The problem is that route of reporting may be ineffective, and once you start, you'll lose all future access, come under suspicion, and may actually still be charged (the whistleblower stuff helps more with not getting convicted). I was originally thinking "he should have gone to IG/Congress rather than the press", but seeing the Binney/Drake/Wiebe interview where they all had gone through the IG/Congress process themselves, recognized they'd accomplished fuck-all, and supported Snowden's decision to go directly to the press/public, kind of convinced me. I personally might have considered going to someone else in government, other than IG or H/SPSCI -- like to Udall or Rand Paul or maybe even a judge or governor -- as more effective than the "official" channels, but less illegal than a journalist.

skwirl 13y ago

I don't think putting pressure on the government to fire the prosecutor who filed the petition is likely to work. A poll earlier this week found that the majority of Americans want Snowden charged and disapprove of what he has done. You need to start with petitioning your fellow Americans.

stefanix 13y ago
Was it one of these polls where they only call landlines? Not sure this means anything without exactly specifying how the poll was conducted.
- skwirl 13y ago
  No. Most of the major polling organizations call cell phones now, except for automated ones like Rasmussen. This was from Pew. From http://www.people-press.org/methodology/our-survey-methodology-in-detail/ http://www.people-press.org/methodology/our-survey-methodolo...: "The typical Pew Research Center for the People & the Press national survey selects a random digit sample of both landline and cell phone numbers in all 50 U.S. states and the District of Columbia. As the proportion of Americans who rely solely or mostly on cell phones for their telephone service continues to grow, sampling both landline and cell phone numbers helps to ensure that our surveys represent all adults who have access to either (only about 2% of households in the U.S. do not have access to any phone)." Here are the full results: http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/17/public-split-over-impact-of-nsa-leak-but-most-want-snowden-prosecuted/ http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/17/public-split-over-imp... And just because it is interesting: "People under 30 are the only age group in which a clear majority (60%) says that the release of classified information about the NSA phone and email data collection program serves the public interest."
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    Though of course, people who are deeply concerned about their privacy are likely to be under-represented in any poll.

eli 13y ago

Huh? Why would the prosecutor be fired? And a Congressional pardon? Are you sure about that?

sigzero 13y ago
Neither of those is ever going to happen, petition or no petition.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Of course, but that is a poor reason to not make your voice heard.
  - sigzero 13y ago
    Who do you think is reading that petition? I would postulate, only the signers. You also make it sound like that is the only way to get your voice "heard".
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      You're right, I've wasted 30 seconds of my life. I am now filled with regret.
    - cantos 13y ago
      I postulate that it would be a good place to start.
  - baddox 13y ago
    The fact that the time it takes to sign a petition is worth more than the effect it will have is a good reason to not make your voice heard.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

DanielRibeiro 13y ago

The pardon petition also only needs more 7k signatures: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snowden/Dp03vGYD?at93 https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snow... Remember that the goal is to get the government address the issue, and show that the people are not fine with the NSA's actions. It would be nice to get them to actually pardon him, but that is a much harder goal.

evilduck 13y ago
Has any whitehouse.gov petition ever led to actual action being taken?
- exiva 13y ago
  The White House Honey Ale recipe was released from a we the people petition... So, no.
- bobzimuta 13y ago
  https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/ale-chief-white-house-beer-recipe https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/ale-chief-white-ho...
- bbatsell 13y ago
  Here are the ones I can recall off the top of my head: * CISPA veto threat/defeat [https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/cybersecurity-legislation-must-not-violate-americans-right-privacy https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/cybersecurity-legi...] * New open-access rules [https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/increasing-public-access-results-scientific-research https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/increasing-public-...] * Halting use of animals in military training [https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/immediately-halt-cruel-and-unnecessary-use-monkeys-army-chemical-casualty-management-training/tt2v2mc6 https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/immediately-halt-c...]
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    The animals one obviously doesn't count [1], since the petition was created September 27th, 2011, and the order halting the use of animals was issued September 20th, 2011. [1] Barring time travel

zacharyvoase 13y ago

The role of the prosecutor is to prosecute the interests of the State, which in this case they have done. I’m wondering how grand juries play into this—the Fifth Amendment states that “no person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury” (except for those in the military, which I think he wouldn’t classify as). There’s a great article here which describes the power which Grand Juries used to wield in the indictment process, specifically the ability to act on their own, investigate, and actually challenge the federal prosecutor rather than just rubber-stamping each case: http://constitution.org/lrev/roots/runaway.htm http://constitution.org/lrev/roots/runaway.htm

neurotech1 13y ago
I remember reading several points(Wikipedia) 98% Grand Juries return an indictment, rarely narrowing or broadening the charges; 90% of Federal Criminal Cases are Plea Bargained before trial; 90% of Federal Criminal trials result in a conviction; This is why the Aaron Swartz was so wrong, once the prosecutor decided to overzealously present the charges to a grand jury, the odds were stacked against him. Snowden is in big trouble, because in this case its highly unlikely that President Obama will pardon him, although popularly requested to do so. So yes, the whole prosecution process has runaway from the original goal of justice.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  Snowden will still be in HK courts after the next presidential election.
betterunix 13y ago
"The role of the prosecutor is to prosecute the interests of the State" One would think that, as public servants, their role is to prosecute in the interests of the public at large. That might mean going against the interests of the state, if the state is working against the public.
- baddox 13y ago

krapp 13y ago

These are political charges, and as the governed we should stand up to the people who are supposed to be working for us and demand that they be dropped. Immediately. Did or did not Edward Snowden leak classified material to the press? Does or does not the government have a duty to attempt to prosecute him? You make it sound like he didn't actually break any laws, when he actually did break a couple. Whether the charges brought can be proven remains to be seen, but let's not assume this is a sham and a kangaroo court because you consider what Snowden did to be heroic. It may have been, but that still doesn't make it legal.

gohrt 13y ago
The executive has a duty to examine the situation and decide whether the NSA's activities were wrong, and whether Snowden was acting in the national interest when he leaked. Now every law is legal, that's why we have a Supreme Court. Ergo, not every lawbreak is illegal.
eatitraw 13y ago
Why such obsession about the law? Some laws are good, and that's good that they are enforced. Some laws are bad, and it is bad that they are enforced. The whole concept of "legality" is (sadly) appropriated by governments. The government invents the rules for itself and other organizations and individuums. They ca invent whatever rules they like. Gulag was perfectly legal. Nazi concentration camps were perfectly legal. It is stupid to assume that one's actions are bad just because they are against the law.
- krapp 13y ago
  I'm not obsessed about the law. And honestly, I agree personally with everything Snowden did. I'm just disagreeing with the premise that even having a trial is itself unjust.
  - enraged_camel 13y ago
    If the trial is a mechanism to enforce the bad laws, of course it is unjust. The dictionary definition is justice is "the quality of being fair and reasonable." Is there anything fair ad reasonable about how Snowden is about to be treated?

deleted 13y ago

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blueprint 13y ago

How should we go about identifying the federal prosecutors?

coolhandluke 13y ago
The charging documents (which should be public) will contain an affirmation/confirmation section that includes the prosecutor's name and signature.
- o0-0o 13y ago
  The charges are sealed.

joering2 13y ago

I have a great respect towards Snowden for what he did. Knowing his life will be over, he was brave enough to continue believing in his citizen's duty and pledge to the Constitution and all American people (not to the Administration that just happened to be more tyrannical as the days go by) and decided he couldn't stand the abuse anymore. I personally believe the only reason we do not have a full speed tyranny in this country and more wars with american troops involved all over the world is because of the people like Assange, Bradley and Snowden. They put a real time breaks on internal abuse; many times before pulling the trigger those in charge ask themselves: "damn what if another 'traitor' will leak this out and my name [and crimes] will come to the light?". We have grown very dangerous government that WE founded and WE continue to pay for and we seem to forget about that... But in NO MEANS the Government will EVER let him off the hook. Never. Its not that they are vicious or anything, its simply because the system is broken and corrupt to its inner core (by corruption I do not mean someone giving an envelope under the table to win some contract. I am talking about high ranked generals that with no serious evidence just by "believing we are protecting american people" are sending thousands on the war the they damn well know is not being waged in the name of security, but the name of satisfying Industrial Military Complex, in a monetary way). You can see military lock down of entire cities due to the riots on the streets, and yet they will not change their mind, because that would be a warm invitation to anyone else witnessing shit being done under government seal to come forward. It would be a total reboot of the system. Another 4th of July. And what they think about founding fathers [1] is not what you would assume they do. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oP1Ke70Mi8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oP1Ke70Mi8

bertm 13y ago
It happened in the 70s to Daniel Ellsberg, the Pentagon Paper's leaker. "Judge Byrne dismissed all charges against Ellsberg." "He and Russo faced charges under the Espionage Act of 1917 and other charges including theft and conspiracy, carrying a total maximum sentence of 115 years." -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg
- georgemcbay 13y ago
  The charges against Ellsberg were dropped on what was basically a technicality, though.

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nhangen 13y ago

I'm sure the prosecutors that filed this did so at the behest of their superiors, and/or the POTUS, Justice Department, and everyone with a dog in this fight. Going after them would probably be the best thing that could happen for the rest. Have to aim higher.

laureny 13y ago

> These are political charges What does this mean exactly? "Political charge" is absurd. Besides, are you seriously suggesting that a petition should be enough to drop criminal charges brought upon someone? That's not how things work in any civilized country. I tend to side with him at the moment but there is no way I will trust my judgment, or that of 90,000 angry online petition signers, to decide justice for me. Let the trial happen, let's see everything that's going on, this will bring up a lot of things up in the open. Maybe we'll find he's a hero and he's done nothing wrong, or maybe we'll find that he has sold intelligence to the Chinese or whatever. Either way, the right way is to go through the judiciary system.

throwaway10001 13y ago

So now is the time to identify the federal prosecutors who filed this and petition the government to have them fired. That's the wrong target, Snowden clearly broke the law, and that's what the prosecutors are alleging. You could argue that the laws are unjust (Call Congress!) and so on but apparently everything NSA did was rubber stamped by judges so they have the seal of approval. Snowden knows it too, he himself said that he will be made to suffer. Obama will never pardon him, imagine the precedent? He will have to take whatever is coming and let history judge him, espionage or civil disobedience?

saurabhnanda 13y ago

There's another way to demonstrate just how unhappy you are with the trampling of your basic rigthts. Guns. Go out on the streets in meaningful numbers brandishing unloaded guns to show the govt how serious you are about the issue. It's a much stronger form of protest IMO. (PS: I know I'll get downvoted for such radical comments, but moderation has stopped working with govts)

krapp 13y ago
What would even be the point if the guns weren't loaded? You shouldn't be willing to march en masse into the streets with weapons you're not prepared to use, otherwise it's an idle threat. Signs and slogans would literally be more useful. Then at least, the news media might report on the message and not the guns.
alex_doom 13y ago
Needs a better catch phrase like "You can take away my ability to share digital files that the public needs to know about when you pry them from my cold dead hands!"

logn 13y ago

People need to organize and protest, online and in person. That means, an organized blackout like SOPA/PIPA and organized public (in real life) protests. I like the whitehouse.gov petitions, but I don't know of an instance where they've helped anything (in their short history). The Baby Boomers got plenty done with protests. And Google/Wikipedia/etc stopped SOPA/PIPA with a massive online blackout. Of course, the tech industry largely benefits from intelligence spending, so I'm not sure how much of a protest could be organized online. Perhaps the users themselves need to boycott any company not opposed to surveillance (say, replacing their avatar with some indication of their boycott and deleting all their content). Also, I think we need the Republicans (or anyone) to impeach Obama, for the good of the country.

anigbrowl 13y ago

So now is the time to identify the federal prosecutors who filed this and petition the government to have them fired. For what, doing their jobs? Protest by all means, but demanding that prosecutors be fired for executing the law is just ridiculous.

Amadou 13y ago
I don't think it is all that ridiculous. Prosecutors have tremendous amounts of discretion regarding who they prosecute and what for. They aren't just "doing their jobs" they are explicitly targeting Snowden. The fact that it is their legal prerogative to do so does not necessarily make it ethically correct.
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  I would love to see some examples of people who have engaged in similar practices that we didn't bother to prosecute. Like people complaining about 'Obama's war on Leakers,' these assertions of prosecutorial vindictiveness are meaningless without context.

pinaceae 13y ago

hey, non-US citizen here. assuming you're a US citizen based on your "outrage". the point of your defence budget (how large is it again) is to project power through the military and intelligence services. it is ASTOUNDING that only now you seem to have realized what the US intelligennce apparatus is doing. of course they are collecting all the data, they are basically replicating google to be able to search within digital data. maybe only on foreigners, but what kind of stupid distinction is that? we have a found an al-kaida member, but he is US so hands off? welcome to the rest of the world. ever travelled? your data is one of many intelligence databases. i am human being, but somehow it is ok for you to spend gobs of money on monitoring ME, but once you realize it might affect YOU you suddenly get "outraged". seriously, what DID you THINK all those intelligence services with multi-billion budgets were DOING? looking forward to the protest by US neckbeards around the country. hope time-warner produces enough guy fawkes masks, should raise the price too. USA USA USA.

zanny 13y ago
Myself and plenty of other US citizens and residents understand the imperialistic tyrrany of the fed. The problem is that 90% of the population isn't engaged, is brainwashed by national news networks, and is complacent in their lives eating McDonalds and watching Desperate Housewives. They accept being exploited and the atrocities they vote in with their amazing public service of going to a polling place for 10 minutes every 2 or 4 years (and they never vote for their local mayors or judges). The only way anything would truly change in the USA is if that massive body that spans 2 deviations of income in both directions of the bell curve lost their ability to keep fattening themselves up or if they tv went out.
kimlelly 13y ago
"...your defence budget (how large is it again)" It's about the size of the 10 biggest following countries COMBINED! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_e... That is YOUR hard earned tax money at work AGAINST YOU.
- timdev2 13y ago

rwmj 13y ago

The Rule of Law here pretty clearly says Snowdon should be charged, and convicted if guilty. The prosecutors are doing their jobs by arresting him. Pardoning him would be the Rule of Man. Just sayin' ..

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theklub 13y ago

If someone can kickstart a fund for Turkey why can't get do it for Snowden? Lets get some full page ads out there!

yoster 13y ago

If everyone that disagreed decided to call and write our congressmen, they would definitely be listening. Too bad most of the country is too lazy to do this...