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I'm always a bit frustrated that Google Docs doesn't have a save icon. It simply says "All changes saved in drive". But you see this doesn't stop my habitual co

I'm always a bit frustrated that Google Docs doesn't have a save icon. It simply says "All changes saved in drive". But you see this doesn't stop my habitual compulsion to press the save icon (or at least do :w in Vim).

stephengillie 13y ago
After using the autosave plugin for notepad++, the need to manually press ctrl+s in excel or word annoys me. Why can't I tell these programs to autosave when they lose focus? Instead, I get weird "autorecover" options that usually take several minutes to restore my file. After using an autosave plugin for minecraft server, I'm annoyed by the need to unfocus notepad++ to get it to save. I would almost rather have my changes written directly to disk automatically. I don't want to have to think about if my file is saved or not.
- scarecrowbob 13y ago
  Do you not find use cases where you do -not- want the document saving? I spend a lot of time editing code that is being served by a local development server, and much of the time I do not want my changes saved until they are a complete set simply because I don't need it to start feeding me a bunch of errors from half-finished code. Similarly, there are a lot of times when I will open a document, modify or reformat part of its contents in preparation for copying them somewhere else with different requirements, and then close the document without saving it. So aren't there any times in your workflows where you don't want the files saved unless you explicitly want to commit some changes?
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    Not really, though (and this relates to the first of your examples) I do what persisting (avoid loss) changes made distinct from committing (identifying as in a done/stable/ready-for-some-use-besides-continued-editing state) changes.
- Dylan16807 13y ago
  Excel and word have a proper autosave that runs in the background and writes to a hidden file. That is the way every program should work by default. I have no idea what you mean about minutes to restore, but if so that's a bug, not a flaw in the idea.
  - stephengillie 13y ago
    But they don't autosave. They autorecover. Which means that instead of just reopening my file, I have 2 files that Excel or Word must try to delta check to rebuild my file. When Excel or Word crash, I have to wait several minutes while the program closes, reports to the reporting server and checks for problems, then tries to recover my file. Or my other choice is to cancel the reporting and reopen the file manually, where it still has to recover. I can't even just reopen my unsaved file to redo my changes. This has been my experience since using Office 2007 on Windows Vista. It's still the same with Office 2010 on 7, and I don't know that it will change with Office 2013 on 8.
    - Dylan16807 13y ago
      I thought autorecover was implemented with a normal save, not a delta. Anyway if you have issues waiting minutes for the program to report the error then something has gone terribly wrong with your install. Possibly you have a broken DNS? I don't know, that is weird and has absolutely nothing to do with the saving mechanism. The point I was making is that there should be constant/regular automatic saves that don't touch the original file.
      - stephengillie 13y ago
        >The point I was making is that there should be constant/regular automatic saves that don't touch the original file. That's not quite what I want. I want the original file to be updated basically constantly. >Anyway if you have issues waiting minutes for the program to report the error then something has gone terribly wrong with your install. Possibly you have a broken DNS? I don't know, that is weird and has absolutely nothing to do with the saving mechanism. This issue has persisted for me across multiple desktops and laptops, on business and residential connections, from multiple ISPs over differing physical media across the Puget Sound region. If DNS were the issue, it would be a massive and persistent issue affecting a major tech hub...
seanmcdirmid 13y ago
This is quite the future right? The problem isn't the save icon, it is the notion of "save" itself, which is completely unnaturalistic; i.e. the floppy disk icon is not anachronistic, the floppy disk itself is! When I write into a physical notebook, I don't have to "save my work", this just happens automatically...you've probably heard this before. What we really need is a good icon for "bookmark version", and there aren't many good time travel analogies to leverage to come up with good metaphors.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  The problem is that there really are times when I don't want to write out changes. Discrete saving isn't an anachronism, it is a feature.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    If you want to play around with another version of the document that you'll throw away, fork. Alternatively, make your changes, then throw them way by going back in time. Save is an anachronism. Don't enforce usability hardships for the common case to satisfy the special rare niche case.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      You are ignoring cases where you want to present your changes in an atomic fashion to other systems and people. I don't need my compiler to be churning on code that I know won't compile and I don't need dropbox constantly reuploading binary files that I am in the process of modifying. What is the point of burning network IO every time a user drags his stylus across an image in Photoshop? Atomic interactions are the future, not the past. Furthermore, "forking" is what happens when you "check out" a file to memory and "merging" your changes occurs when you write them back. You are only modifying the terminology. Replacing the "save" verb with "merge" would not be doing the user any favours.
      - seanmcdirmid 13y ago

stephengillie 13y ago

After using the autosave plugin for notepad++, the need to manually press ctrl+s in excel or word annoys me. Why can't I tell these programs to autosave when they lose focus? Instead, I get weird "autorecover" options that usually take several minutes to restore my file. After using an autosave plugin for minecraft server, I'm annoyed by the need to unfocus notepad++ to get it to save. I would almost rather have my changes written directly to disk automatically. I don't want to have to think about if my file is saved or not.

scarecrowbob 13y ago
Do you not find use cases where you do -not- want the document saving? I spend a lot of time editing code that is being served by a local development server, and much of the time I do not want my changes saved until they are a complete set simply because I don't need it to start feeding me a bunch of errors from half-finished code. Similarly, there are a lot of times when I will open a document, modify or reformat part of its contents in preparation for copying them somewhere else with different requirements, and then close the document without saving it. So aren't there any times in your workflows where you don't want the files saved unless you explicitly want to commit some changes?
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  Not really, though (and this relates to the first of your examples) I do what persisting (avoid loss) changes made distinct from committing (identifying as in a done/stable/ready-for-some-use-besides-continued-editing state) changes.
Dylan16807 13y ago
Excel and word have a proper autosave that runs in the background and writes to a hidden file. That is the way every program should work by default. I have no idea what you mean about minutes to restore, but if so that's a bug, not a flaw in the idea.
- stephengillie 13y ago
  But they don't autosave. They autorecover. Which means that instead of just reopening my file, I have 2 files that Excel or Word must try to delta check to rebuild my file. When Excel or Word crash, I have to wait several minutes while the program closes, reports to the reporting server and checks for problems, then tries to recover my file. Or my other choice is to cancel the reporting and reopen the file manually, where it still has to recover. I can't even just reopen my unsaved file to redo my changes. This has been my experience since using Office 2007 on Windows Vista. It's still the same with Office 2010 on 7, and I don't know that it will change with Office 2013 on 8.
  - Dylan16807 13y ago
    I thought autorecover was implemented with a normal save, not a delta. Anyway if you have issues waiting minutes for the program to report the error then something has gone terribly wrong with your install. Possibly you have a broken DNS? I don't know, that is weird and has absolutely nothing to do with the saving mechanism. The point I was making is that there should be constant/regular automatic saves that don't touch the original file.
    - stephengillie 13y ago
      >The point I was making is that there should be constant/regular automatic saves that don't touch the original file. That's not quite what I want. I want the original file to be updated basically constantly. >Anyway if you have issues waiting minutes for the program to report the error then something has gone terribly wrong with your install. Possibly you have a broken DNS? I don't know, that is weird and has absolutely nothing to do with the saving mechanism. This issue has persisted for me across multiple desktops and laptops, on business and residential connections, from multiple ISPs over differing physical media across the Puget Sound region. If DNS were the issue, it would be a massive and persistent issue affecting a major tech hub...

seanmcdirmid 13y ago

This is quite the future right? The problem isn't the save icon, it is the notion of "save" itself, which is completely unnaturalistic; i.e. the floppy disk icon is not anachronistic, the floppy disk itself is! When I write into a physical notebook, I don't have to "save my work", this just happens automatically...you've probably heard this before. What we really need is a good icon for "bookmark version", and there aren't many good time travel analogies to leverage to come up with good metaphors.

jlgreco 13y ago
The problem is that there really are times when I don't want to write out changes. Discrete saving isn't an anachronism, it is a feature.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  If you want to play around with another version of the document that you'll throw away, fork. Alternatively, make your changes, then throw them way by going back in time. Save is an anachronism. Don't enforce usability hardships for the common case to satisfy the special rare niche case.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    You are ignoring cases where you want to present your changes in an atomic fashion to other systems and people. I don't need my compiler to be churning on code that I know won't compile and I don't need dropbox constantly reuploading binary files that I am in the process of modifying. What is the point of burning network IO every time a user drags his stylus across an image in Photoshop? Atomic interactions are the future, not the past. Furthermore, "forking" is what happens when you "check out" a file to memory and "merging" your changes occurs when you write them back. You are only modifying the terminology. Replacing the "save" verb with "merge" would not be doing the user any favours.
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago