6 ms·

As somebody from Germany, it's slightly entertaining to see that most comments in this thread have something to do with homeless people seeking shelter on publi

by rb2k_ 13y ago

As somebody from Germany, it's slightly entertaining to see that most comments in this thread have something to do with homeless people seeking shelter on public transport. I can see how this would be an implementational detail, but I don't think that should be the primary argument.

GauntletWizard 13y ago
As someone from the USA, you clearly haven't encountered America's homelessness culture. I'd call it a problem, but that would imply that there's a solution - What we actually have is a large population that chooses to be homeless, actively avoiding the social programs that exist. Homelessness isn't an affliction, it is a way of life for them.
- Svip 13y ago
  In their defence, a lot of the social programmes in the USA are rather demeaning. Food stamps comes to mind. But that being said; even in a country like mine, where there is larger 'social security net' (as I hear Americans term it) for homeless people, there are still those who choose to be homeless. But they are few and far in between, that I would not consider them a problem here (for public transportation, that is).
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    Perhaps more relevantly, many of the programs related to homelessness (e.g., shelters) are both of inadequate availability and hazardous; homeless shelters are often, from reports I've seen, a trade-off where you get better protection from the elements in exchange for a higher rate of criminal victimization, compared to being on the streets.
    - frozenport 13y ago
      In highschool I volunteered at a homeless shelter. Homeless shelters often had rules about drugs and drinking that people couldn't deal with. The real problem is substance abuse levels that are significantly above the EU.
  - drstewart 13y ago
    I don't see how food stamps are in any way demeaning, compared to, say, visiting an NHS hospital or living in council housing or any other social program?
    - steveplace 13y ago
      I believe that parent assumes that food stamps are physical stamps instead of EBT cards.
    - laurencerowe 13y ago
      Visiting an NHS hospital is no different than sending your kids to a public (state) school - the NHS is used by almost everyone, it's not Medicaid. Food stamps are demeaning because they send the message that those receiving them cannot be trusted to choose how to spend that money wisely. They deny any flexibility to recipients, what if you need to buy new shoes for your kid one week?
      - jpadkins 13y ago
        can't give cash because of drugs. Addicts will spend money on meth instead of their kids shoes. If you have a better solution, fire away.
        lmm 13y ago
        At the moment drug addicts buy groceries and then sell them for drug money. Experiment suggests that on average the poor do better when given cash than more complex/restricted handouts like food stamps.
      - pbhjpbhj 13y ago
        >Food stamps are demeaning because they send the message that those receiving them cannot be trusted to choose how to spend that money wisely. // So your starving and need food, the community has a whip-round [an impromptu collection] someone takes you to the supermarket and buys your shopping. Your response is what, gratitude or "that's so demeaning". If one feels embarrassed that one is getting more out of society than they're providing in benefit - I assume that's the source of feeling demeaned by charity - then one can work to improve that position. I don't think I need to start listing things you can do for free that are public goods, do I.
  - learc83 13y ago
    >Food stamps comes to mind. How are food stamps demeaning? My family was on food stamps for a few months after my dad left. This was over 10 years ago and even then they gave you an EBT card, not actual stamps. At most grocery stores you swipe it yourself, so it looks like you're just using a debit card.
    - Svip 13y ago
      Food stamps are implying that the government doesn't trust you, just because you cannot afford stuff (due to a large number of possible circumstances for being in that situation), I find that prospect demeaning.
- r00fus 13y ago
  Your comment, to me, is more of a telling condition of the state of social programs in the US. When you have a major national party that believes that social programs are evil, it's clear that it's not an economic, but a political issue.
- rb2k_ 13y ago
  I have lived in Boston for a 7-8 months and I did notice quite a few homeless people. I always assumed that the american social system is just a bit too demeaning for people to actually use it. (e.g. having to present food stamps and thus showing everyone that you're poor). Then again, I don't know very much about the details besides occasional NPR content. I just think it would be a shame if you can't solve problem a because of problem b :)
TillE 13y ago
It's actually like a parody of privileged, selfish middle-class opinions about the poor. Sad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x10QK0ND6A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x10QK0ND6A
- fatjokes 13y ago
  That's a lot of condescension in one sentence. Do you live in an American city with a large homeless population and can argue otherwise? I live in NYC and while I care about the problems of "the poor", I assure you the worries a lot of people on this board raise are legitimate. Even with the fares, the subway cars are often crawling with mariachi bands, hip-hop dance crews and good-ol' fashioned panhandlers pushing their way through crowds. I would love a free public transport system---but it'd be rather pointless if I can't get into a crowded subway car half filled with sleeping homeless. A solution to help the poor needs to be found---but belongs in another discussion thread.
fatjokes 13y ago
I live in NYC, and perhaps German homeless are a better-mannered folk than out here. Should you ever visit however, here is a tip: if, on a busy day, the subway cars are all packed except for one which is suspiciously empty---avoid it. A homeless person is in there and likely soiled himself. The stench is overwhelming, and you don't need to be sitting next to him to feel it.
- rb2k_ 13y ago
  I think over here the really crazy ones (e.g. the ones that soil themselves in public) are usually in psychiatric care/detoxing. I'm quite happy to pay a tiny bit more taxes for a pee-less subway ride :) The few times I was in NY, I did actually keep away from them.
Symmetry 13y ago
My impression is that this was much less of a problem in the US before the mid 70s when the Supreme Court decided that people which psychiatric problems couldn't be involuntarily committed if they didn't pose a danger to others[1]. My understanding is that things in Germany work like they did in the US in the 1960s. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Connor_v._Donaldson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Connor_v._Donaldson
- laurencerowe 13y ago
  I don't think it was the change in law, but the defunding of mental health services that followed the closing of the psychiatric institutions. http://www.nytimes.com/1984/10/30/science/how-release-of-mental-patients-began.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/1984/10/30/science/how-release-of-men...
brendoncrawford 13y ago
As someone who has travelled throughout Germany, I can say that there is nothing in Germany that remotely resembles the scope of homelessness that exists in certain parts of the US. So, I can understand why you might find it amusing.

by rb2k_ 13y ago

GauntletWizard 13y ago

As someone from the USA, you clearly haven't encountered America's homelessness culture. I'd call it a problem, but that would imply that there's a solution - What we actually have is a large population that chooses to be homeless, actively avoiding the social programs that exist. Homelessness isn't an affliction, it is a way of life for them.

Svip 13y ago
In their defence, a lot of the social programmes in the USA are rather demeaning. Food stamps comes to mind. But that being said; even in a country like mine, where there is larger 'social security net' (as I hear Americans term it) for homeless people, there are still those who choose to be homeless. But they are few and far in between, that I would not consider them a problem here (for public transportation, that is).
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  Perhaps more relevantly, many of the programs related to homelessness (e.g., shelters) are both of inadequate availability and hazardous; homeless shelters are often, from reports I've seen, a trade-off where you get better protection from the elements in exchange for a higher rate of criminal victimization, compared to being on the streets.
  - frozenport 13y ago
    In highschool I volunteered at a homeless shelter. Homeless shelters often had rules about drugs and drinking that people couldn't deal with. The real problem is substance abuse levels that are significantly above the EU.
- drstewart 13y ago
  I don't see how food stamps are in any way demeaning, compared to, say, visiting an NHS hospital or living in council housing or any other social program?
  - steveplace 13y ago
    I believe that parent assumes that food stamps are physical stamps instead of EBT cards.
  - laurencerowe 13y ago
    Visiting an NHS hospital is no different than sending your kids to a public (state) school - the NHS is used by almost everyone, it's not Medicaid. Food stamps are demeaning because they send the message that those receiving them cannot be trusted to choose how to spend that money wisely. They deny any flexibility to recipients, what if you need to buy new shoes for your kid one week?
    - jpadkins 13y ago
      can't give cash because of drugs. Addicts will spend money on meth instead of their kids shoes. If you have a better solution, fire away.
      - lmm 13y ago
        At the moment drug addicts buy groceries and then sell them for drug money. Experiment suggests that on average the poor do better when given cash than more complex/restricted handouts like food stamps.
    - pbhjpbhj 13y ago
      >Food stamps are demeaning because they send the message that those receiving them cannot be trusted to choose how to spend that money wisely. // So your starving and need food, the community has a whip-round [an impromptu collection] someone takes you to the supermarket and buys your shopping. Your response is what, gratitude or "that's so demeaning". If one feels embarrassed that one is getting more out of society than they're providing in benefit - I assume that's the source of feeling demeaned by charity - then one can work to improve that position. I don't think I need to start listing things you can do for free that are public goods, do I.
- learc83 13y ago
  >Food stamps comes to mind. How are food stamps demeaning? My family was on food stamps for a few months after my dad left. This was over 10 years ago and even then they gave you an EBT card, not actual stamps. At most grocery stores you swipe it yourself, so it looks like you're just using a debit card.
  - Svip 13y ago
    Food stamps are implying that the government doesn't trust you, just because you cannot afford stuff (due to a large number of possible circumstances for being in that situation), I find that prospect demeaning.
r00fus 13y ago
Your comment, to me, is more of a telling condition of the state of social programs in the US. When you have a major national party that believes that social programs are evil, it's clear that it's not an economic, but a political issue.
rb2k_ 13y ago
I have lived in Boston for a 7-8 months and I did notice quite a few homeless people. I always assumed that the american social system is just a bit too demeaning for people to actually use it. (e.g. having to present food stamps and thus showing everyone that you're poor). Then again, I don't know very much about the details besides occasional NPR content. I just think it would be a shame if you can't solve problem a because of problem b :)

TillE 13y ago

It's actually like a parody of privileged, selfish middle-class opinions about the poor. Sad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x10QK0ND6A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x10QK0ND6A

fatjokes 13y ago
That's a lot of condescension in one sentence. Do you live in an American city with a large homeless population and can argue otherwise? I live in NYC and while I care about the problems of "the poor", I assure you the worries a lot of people on this board raise are legitimate. Even with the fares, the subway cars are often crawling with mariachi bands, hip-hop dance crews and good-ol' fashioned panhandlers pushing their way through crowds. I would love a free public transport system---but it'd be rather pointless if I can't get into a crowded subway car half filled with sleeping homeless. A solution to help the poor needs to be found---but belongs in another discussion thread.

fatjokes 13y ago

I live in NYC, and perhaps German homeless are a better-mannered folk than out here. Should you ever visit however, here is a tip: if, on a busy day, the subway cars are all packed except for one which is suspiciously empty---avoid it. A homeless person is in there and likely soiled himself. The stench is overwhelming, and you don't need to be sitting next to him to feel it.

rb2k_ 13y ago
I think over here the really crazy ones (e.g. the ones that soil themselves in public) are usually in psychiatric care/detoxing. I'm quite happy to pay a tiny bit more taxes for a pee-less subway ride :) The few times I was in NY, I did actually keep away from them.

Symmetry 13y ago

My impression is that this was much less of a problem in the US before the mid 70s when the Supreme Court decided that people which psychiatric problems couldn't be involuntarily committed if they didn't pose a danger to others[1]. My understanding is that things in Germany work like they did in the US in the 1960s. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Connor_v._Donaldson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Connor_v._Donaldson

laurencerowe 13y ago
I don't think it was the change in law, but the defunding of mental health services that followed the closing of the psychiatric institutions. http://www.nytimes.com/1984/10/30/science/how-release-of-mental-patients-began.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/1984/10/30/science/how-release-of-men...

brendoncrawford 13y ago

As someone who has travelled throughout Germany, I can say that there is nothing in Germany that remotely resembles the scope of homelessness that exists in certain parts of the US. So, I can understand why you might find it amusing.