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This is an older article. One of the key takeaways is that Congress in 2008 gave the IRS the capability to dive into your personal affairs online in ways that e

This is an older article. One of the key takeaways is that Congress in 2008 gave the IRS the capability to dive into your personal affairs online in ways that even the justice department can't (without a warrant). They only need to view you as somebody of interest. Better still, the exact nature of all this -- wait for it -- is a secret. The long-term trend here is pretty clear. Congress has the Big Data hammer out, and it's not afraid to use it on whatever political cause of the week makes them upset. NSA was first, because terrorism was so bad. But dang it, tax cheats are pretty bad too! There's no slippery slope argument that needs to be made. We're already sliding down it. Just standby for the next travesty. Don't worry, the wait won't be long. Maybe a year or two. The American people remain amazingly ignorant and/or apathetic, though. One wonders how many wake-up calls it will take. ADD: The very interesting question here is this: since the IRS is authorized to go after emails and social chats without a warrant, how are the big service providers going to report this? Even if Google shows its thousands of NSLs, this type of activity wouldn't be covered by them. Some more info here: http://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/mutual-funds/articles/2013/04/04/irs-high-tech-tools-track-your-digital-footprints http://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/mutual-funds/...

ctdonath 13y ago
Wake up? So long as none of it actually affects people on a day-to-day basis they won't care. Otherwise it's just another abstraction.
euroclydon 13y ago
Terrorism is bad. Tax cheating is a serous loss of revenue. Online privacy is a much more abstract concern for citizens than having their entire office building blown up or even a few tens of billions of annual tax revenue being lost. You know how people complain about the DMV? That's because they don't have to wait in line as long at their bank. It's the same thing with the IRS and Big Data, when a government agency doesn't use the latest technology, they can rightfully be accused of being antiquated. It just so happens that people are much more supportive of shorter DMV lines than they are of paying sales tax on Amazon purchases -- go figure. Furthermore, if government uses big data to catch polluters, that good. But if government uses big data to catch someone planning a bombing, that's bad?
- josh2600 13y ago
  This is an absurdly reductive argument. No one is saying the governments use of Big Data is bad except in the circumstances where our government sees fit to hide its usage or utility even when it directly impacts its citizenry. It is not the use of modern technology or even the goals, which many on HN will admit are admirable. It is about the path used to reach the end just as much as it is about the end. I believe that we have very smart law enforcement officials who don't need to routinely violate the privacy of Americans to do their jobs.
- university 13y ago
  That recaptured loss of revenue will only be used to fund the military and further oppress the people. There are entire families on the streets and cities like Detroit are crumbling, yet tax payer money is siphoned into more prisons and spy technology.
  - glurgh 13y ago
    Isn't the logical conclusion of this (factually unsupported) argument that we should just stop paying and collecting taxes? You might as well give up on having an organized society if your criteria are things like 'no tax cent should be spent on something I don't like'.
    - adventured 13y ago
      No, that isn't the logical conclusion at all. The logical conclusion is that we need to cut the military in half expenditure wise (saving $340+ billion per year instantly, and cutting our budget deficit in half instantly, while still leaving a massive budget for the military). We need to close 9 out of 10 military bases around the world, perhaps more. End Homeland Security and the TSA. Strictly enforce privacy laws, including the 4th amendment, such that anybody in the government that violates them does hard prison time. Cut the espionage budget ($80+ billion) substantially, including all of the budget allocated to illegal domestic spying. Pass new restrictions on the ability of the executive branch to wage undeclared war (ie without congressional approval), both in the style of what we're doing now in Syria and the more traditional war in Iraq. We should also simplify the tax code, simultaneously wiping out a lot of tax fraud by ending 99% of all loopholes and deductions, and slashing the IRS in half, saving tens of billions per year in tax compliance costs. We should also, obviously, end the failed war on drugs, and end the mass prison system. The policy of holding in prison millions of political prisoners should be immediately stopped, bringing the extremely violent 'war on drugs' assault on liberty by the government from 1980 until now, to an end. This war of power and greed, costs hundreds of billions of dollars per year in government expenditures, lost lives, lost productivity, prison costs, and the destroyed futures of those held captive as political prisoners (many to be enslaved for labor in corporate prisoners). Not to mention the tens of thousands of lives it ends around the world every year. We currently spend over $100 billion just to keep 2.2 million people in prison. Your conclusion at the end presents a false choice. Simple black and white example: if you don't like violent gestapo politics, you might as well give up on all organized society (you can actually insert any government action, which proves your position to be filled with holes). The parent never said "no cent should be spent on something I don't like."
Shivetya 13y ago
Last I read the IRS is not part of the legislative branch, the NSA being part of the DOD may not be as well. Which mostly seems to be true from the stonewalling both agencies are able to do in regards to Congress. You have to wonder, if an agency of the government is not answerable to Congress who represents us, then why do they exist?
- npsimons 13y ago
  As an employee of another part of the DoD, you can bet your ass we're answerable to congress, and not just for budget. There also happens to be this pesky little thing called the constitution. I'm not sure of the details (I took an oath to uphold it so long ago), but I think there may be some directive in there about the right of people to remain secure "in their papers", and it doesn't give any exceptions (eg, to future government agencies or to corporations).
  - mpyne 13y ago
    Actually, it does limit the need for Warrants to "unreasonable searches and seizures". But, ah! Is this a "reasonable" search on the part of the IRS? Congress thinks so, but we would have to leave it to the Supreme Court to decide.
- tptacek 13y ago
  Both the IRS and NSA are part of the Executive branch.
glurgh 13y ago
Just standby for the next travesty. What's the specific travesty here? The IRS already looks at and analyzes your private financial data both as reported by you and others and this is generally considered acceptable and a necessary part of them doing their job. So say now they noticed you reported $20k in gross annual income but are buying Ferraris on eBay. It seems pretty reasonable to assume, from that piece of public data that you might be mis-stating your taxable income.
- ams6110 13y ago
  If congress would simplify the tax code, it would be both harder to cheat and vastly easier for the honest to pay their taxes. And the IRS wouldn't need to snoop into everyone's life.
  - glurgh 13y ago
    These seem like orthogonal issues, though. Even with the most simplistic tax code conceivable (say, a flat tax) a tax authority would have to examine your self-reported financial data and financial data relating to you reported by third parties. And if you're suspected of misrepresentation, they'd still have good reason to go rummaging through your publicly or legally accessible info to make their case. These steps appear independent of the details of the tax code.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    No simplified tax code proposal I've read would eliminate the problem of people doing cash transactions under the table, or "loaning" themselves a house and treating that as a business asset.
    - theflyingkiwi42 13y ago
      The Fair Tax would take care of most of that. Any transaction with a business would have sales tax. There are no write offs, so the business asset would not fly, neither would be buying Ferraris. http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=HowFairTaxWorks http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=HowFairTaxWo...
throwaway10001 13y ago
Who do you hate America? What do you have to hide? It's all to protect the chilrun /sarcasm Sadly, the train has left, even courts are neutered. They can and are supposed to nip it in the but they will not do it. Journos are harassed at airports for doing investigative works, and no one wants to do anything about it
- shardling 13y ago
  JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP WITH THIS TYPE OF "HUMOR".
  - begurken 13y ago
    All caps are great! They make your message more compelling. Please keep defending America with your caps lock key on the internet.
anonyfuss 13y ago
We willingly participated in building a massive anti-consumer corporate surveillance state, called it "analytics", and then are surprised when the government jumps onboard.

ctdonath 13y ago

Wake up? So long as none of it actually affects people on a day-to-day basis they won't care. Otherwise it's just another abstraction.

euroclydon 13y ago

Terrorism is bad. Tax cheating is a serous loss of revenue. Online privacy is a much more abstract concern for citizens than having their entire office building blown up or even a few tens of billions of annual tax revenue being lost. You know how people complain about the DMV? That's because they don't have to wait in line as long at their bank. It's the same thing with the IRS and Big Data, when a government agency doesn't use the latest technology, they can rightfully be accused of being antiquated. It just so happens that people are much more supportive of shorter DMV lines than they are of paying sales tax on Amazon purchases -- go figure. Furthermore, if government uses big data to catch polluters, that good. But if government uses big data to catch someone planning a bombing, that's bad?

josh2600 13y ago
This is an absurdly reductive argument. No one is saying the governments use of Big Data is bad except in the circumstances where our government sees fit to hide its usage or utility even when it directly impacts its citizenry. It is not the use of modern technology or even the goals, which many on HN will admit are admirable. It is about the path used to reach the end just as much as it is about the end. I believe that we have very smart law enforcement officials who don't need to routinely violate the privacy of Americans to do their jobs.
university 13y ago
That recaptured loss of revenue will only be used to fund the military and further oppress the people. There are entire families on the streets and cities like Detroit are crumbling, yet tax payer money is siphoned into more prisons and spy technology.
- glurgh 13y ago
  Isn't the logical conclusion of this (factually unsupported) argument that we should just stop paying and collecting taxes? You might as well give up on having an organized society if your criteria are things like 'no tax cent should be spent on something I don't like'.
  - adventured 13y ago
    No, that isn't the logical conclusion at all. The logical conclusion is that we need to cut the military in half expenditure wise (saving $340+ billion per year instantly, and cutting our budget deficit in half instantly, while still leaving a massive budget for the military). We need to close 9 out of 10 military bases around the world, perhaps more. End Homeland Security and the TSA. Strictly enforce privacy laws, including the 4th amendment, such that anybody in the government that violates them does hard prison time. Cut the espionage budget ($80+ billion) substantially, including all of the budget allocated to illegal domestic spying. Pass new restrictions on the ability of the executive branch to wage undeclared war (ie without congressional approval), both in the style of what we're doing now in Syria and the more traditional war in Iraq. We should also simplify the tax code, simultaneously wiping out a lot of tax fraud by ending 99% of all loopholes and deductions, and slashing the IRS in half, saving tens of billions per year in tax compliance costs. We should also, obviously, end the failed war on drugs, and end the mass prison system. The policy of holding in prison millions of political prisoners should be immediately stopped, bringing the extremely violent 'war on drugs' assault on liberty by the government from 1980 until now, to an end. This war of power and greed, costs hundreds of billions of dollars per year in government expenditures, lost lives, lost productivity, prison costs, and the destroyed futures of those held captive as political prisoners (many to be enslaved for labor in corporate prisoners). Not to mention the tens of thousands of lives it ends around the world every year. We currently spend over $100 billion just to keep 2.2 million people in prison. Your conclusion at the end presents a false choice. Simple black and white example: if you don't like violent gestapo politics, you might as well give up on all organized society (you can actually insert any government action, which proves your position to be filled with holes). The parent never said "no cent should be spent on something I don't like."

Shivetya 13y ago

Last I read the IRS is not part of the legislative branch, the NSA being part of the DOD may not be as well. Which mostly seems to be true from the stonewalling both agencies are able to do in regards to Congress. You have to wonder, if an agency of the government is not answerable to Congress who represents us, then why do they exist?

npsimons 13y ago
As an employee of another part of the DoD, you can bet your ass we're answerable to congress, and not just for budget. There also happens to be this pesky little thing called the constitution. I'm not sure of the details (I took an oath to uphold it so long ago), but I think there may be some directive in there about the right of people to remain secure "in their papers", and it doesn't give any exceptions (eg, to future government agencies or to corporations).
- mpyne 13y ago
  Actually, it does limit the need for Warrants to "unreasonable searches and seizures". But, ah! Is this a "reasonable" search on the part of the IRS? Congress thinks so, but we would have to leave it to the Supreme Court to decide.
tptacek 13y ago
Both the IRS and NSA are part of the Executive branch.

glurgh 13y ago

Just standby for the next travesty. What's the specific travesty here? The IRS already looks at and analyzes your private financial data both as reported by you and others and this is generally considered acceptable and a necessary part of them doing their job. So say now they noticed you reported $20k in gross annual income but are buying Ferraris on eBay. It seems pretty reasonable to assume, from that piece of public data that you might be mis-stating your taxable income.

ams6110 13y ago
If congress would simplify the tax code, it would be both harder to cheat and vastly easier for the honest to pay their taxes. And the IRS wouldn't need to snoop into everyone's life.
- glurgh 13y ago
  These seem like orthogonal issues, though. Even with the most simplistic tax code conceivable (say, a flat tax) a tax authority would have to examine your self-reported financial data and financial data relating to you reported by third parties. And if you're suspected of misrepresentation, they'd still have good reason to go rummaging through your publicly or legally accessible info to make their case. These steps appear independent of the details of the tax code.
- tptacek 13y ago
  No simplified tax code proposal I've read would eliminate the problem of people doing cash transactions under the table, or "loaning" themselves a house and treating that as a business asset.
  - theflyingkiwi42 13y ago
    The Fair Tax would take care of most of that. Any transaction with a business would have sales tax. There are no write offs, so the business asset would not fly, neither would be buying Ferraris. http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=HowFairTaxWorks http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=HowFairTaxWo...

throwaway10001 13y ago

Who do you hate America? What do you have to hide? It's all to protect the chilrun /sarcasm Sadly, the train has left, even courts are neutered. They can and are supposed to nip it in the but they will not do it. Journos are harassed at airports for doing investigative works, and no one wants to do anything about it

shardling 13y ago
JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP WITH THIS TYPE OF "HUMOR".
- begurken 13y ago
  All caps are great! They make your message more compelling. Please keep defending America with your caps lock key on the internet.

anonyfuss 13y ago

We willingly participated in building a massive anti-consumer corporate surveillance state, called it "analytics", and then are surprised when the government jumps onboard.