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Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit
- woah 13y agoNot surprising. With the Gestapo, and then the Stasi, the Germans have an extensive cultural memory of the effects of comprehensive government surveillance of their lives. They are still surprisingly tolerant of the long term military occupation of their country by the US. It would have been interesting if Snowden had holed up in Germany instead of HK. I wonder if the inevitable US military extradition would have tested the tolerance of the Germans.
- hga 13y agoAccording to Wikipedia, as of 2010 the US military has 52,440 people in Germany, and as of 2013 the German military had 188,921 active personnel and as of 2010 144,000 in their reserves. That falls a bit short of "occupation" in my book. There has in fact been at least one technothriller based on the US military fighting its way out of Germany, based of course on the Anabasis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabasis_(Xenophon) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabasis_(Xenophon) Xenophon and 10,000 Greeks fighting their way out of the Persian Empire).
- 1morepassword 13y agoHow would you call it there were almost half a million fully armed German troops stationed in the US? A great success for US board of tourism?
- jckt 13y agoOktoberfest in the South? /j
- hga 13y ago"fully armed" Right there you start going astray, a lot of them are doing logistics of one type or another, including our largest overseas military hospital, the top level hospital for serious GWoT theater injuries. More directly, it would all depend on why they were there.
- DasIch 13y agoThey are nevertheless armed among other things with nuclear weapons.
- mpyne 13y agoThose aren't the nukes that Germany would have to worry about. The U.S. attacking Germany is even more paranoid than chem-trail mind control agents, I'm just throwing that in to go along with the hypothetical.
- lostlogin 13y agoIt doesn't take an attack for there to be problems. Accidents, leaks, contamination, poor behaviour and violence by troops etc is somewhat more likely. That and the external appearance of supporting what ever the stationed troops are up to (often related to regional/nearby wars etc).
- stonemetal 13y agoI think you mean half a hundred thousand. It really depends, are they going to movies and buying local beer or are they shooting at people? What is currently happening in Germany is the first not the second.
- darkarmani 13y agoHessians?
- hga 13y agoAs it turns out I'm reading Washington's Crossing (http://www.amazon.com/Washingtons-Crossing-Pivotal-Moments-American/dp/0195170342/ http://www.amazon.com/Washingtons-Crossing-Pivotal-Moments-A...) and at the point where I'm at the Hessians are not enjoying the attacks they're receiving from the locals of occupied New Jersey (plus some raids from across the Delaware). Seems their thorough plundering wasn't well received....
- Turing_Machine 13y ago"How would you call it there were almost half a million fully armed German troops stationed in the US?" That would depend on whether they were there with U.S. government permission, wouldn't it?
- pekk 13y agoAbsolutely, as a US citizen I have no problem at all if Germans want to have a military cultural exchange program to bring some locality jobs ;) It is not like we are in Germany to sack the villages and take slaves, or dictate policy
- njharman 13y agoOne year, 2010, is not long term. Germany had been heavily occupied (by several nations) from end of WWII until recently. Recently being last 20years or so.
- fwenzel 13y ago{{citation-needed}}
- lostlogin 13y agoAre you joking?
- fwenzel 13y agoNo. I am just seeing a difference between occupation and having troops from foreign allies stationed on one's soil. If all non-local troops are "occupation" in your book, then I guess the US are occupying South Korea also? And Italy? And Israel?
- brilee 13y agohttp://askakorean.blogspot.com/2008/09/why-do-koreans-complain-about-us.html http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2008/09/why-do-koreans-compla... http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2012/12/quick-thought-about-psys-past-anti.html http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2012/12/quick-thought-about-p... Yes, the US are in fact occupying South Korea, and South Korea does not like it.
- jpatokal 13y agoNo, the US Army is "occupying" a chunk of prime real estate in Seoul, in kind of the same way that the United Nations HQ "occupies" a chunk of prime real estate in NYC. Both cause complaints from the locals, but unlike a real occupation, South Korea could tell the US (and the US could tell the UN) to GTFO any time they wanted to.
- 13y ago
- 1123581321 13y agoWhat is that book?
- hga 13y agoI'm thinking of Harold Coyle's appropriately named The Ten Thousand (http://www.amazon.com/The-TEN-THOUSAND-Harold-Coyle/dp/0671885650/ http://www.amazon.com/The-TEN-THOUSAND-Harold-Coyle/dp/06718...), just in case we wondered what inspired it ^_^. The Anabasis has inspired more than a few: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabasis_(Xenophon)#Cultural_influences http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabasis_(Xenophon)#Cultural_in..., and if you're read it the words "the sea, the sea!" never fail to inspire.
- DasIch 13y agoThe US and UK military are usually stationed in somewhat small cities and are a very important part of the economy in these areas. Most people don't care about the fact that they are still here in Germany and those that do care are happy about the income they provide. Everytime they leave somewhere it's usually a source of great concern and not at all something to celebrate.
- JMCQ87 13y agoDie Linke probably disagrees.
- fosap 13y agoWhile nobody celebrates, i think you are overstating the relevance. The troops live in their own quarters, hire their own contractors and shop in their own tax-free shops. Maybe they are using caps, but the impact on the local economy seems minimal.
- kleiba 13y agoI beg to differ. - Bavaria in fear for five US bases http://www.merkur-online.de/aktuelles/politik/bayern-bangt-fuenf-usstuetzpunkte-146871.html http://www.merkur-online.de/aktuelles/politik/bayern-bangt-f... - Effects for Bamberg: withdrawal of US troops brings about employment worries http://www.radio-plassenburg.de/default.aspx?ID=7054&showNews=1108674 http://www.radio-plassenburg.de/default.aspx?ID=7054&showNew... (18,000 employees and a giant market in the surrounding areas are affected at the biggest US base in Grafenwöhr - after all, 15,000 family members of the troops live in the communities around the base.) - Mannheim expects loss of 6 million Euro after pull-out of troops http://www.t-online.de/regionales/id_42073640/mannheim-rechnet-nach-us-truppenabzug-mit-6-millionen-euro-verlust.html http://www.t-online.de/regionales/id_42073640/mannheim-rechn...
- arrrg 13y agoIt’s enormous. No, in the grand scheme of things it doesn’t matter at all, the wider German economy would not be affected, not to any kind of noticeable degree, but for the local community it would be devastating. Akin to the bankruptcy of some huge employer. My parents are living a few dozen kilometers from one of the bases (so actually pretty far away, all things considered) that has actually been growing (as others were closed down more and more was moved there and centralized). It’s in the middle of nowhere, there is nothing else there. My dad, a civil engineer, planned and executed quite a few infrastructure projects for the base. The base is also notoriously short on living space, so people working there have been spreading all over the region, renting apartments and houses. Heck, new houses have been built not half a kilometer from my parents’ home to house people from the base. (My parents own several houses and very nearly rented them or apartments in them to Americans several times. For some reason or other it always didn’t work out in the end but the demand is very obvious.) This tiny version of suburbia was also recently built (by a German company) to provide more living space (cost: €200m). Shopping and going to restaurants is also huge. No, those people in the base do not want to stay there all the time. They will go to the next bigger city or two and buy and eat stuff there. Or get drunk in some club. Frequently. More and more city marketing in the region is specifically targeting Americans. Where my parents live the impact of this base closing down would already be negligible. We probably know one or two people who would lose their job because of it or would make noticeably less money – but the close you get the more devastating the impact would be. Those most directly affected by the base – those who see it every day – are the least likely to want to close it, mostly for economic reasons.
- Cass 13y agoThere's nothing surprising about the German tolerance of the US military bases, considering that they do nothing whatsoever to interfere with our lives or inconvenience us in any way, but do provide quite a lot of jobs. These are mostly medical or training facilities, many of them operated jointly by American and German forces, not some occupying force that's intent on overrunning our government or controlling the citizenry. As far as public opinion goes, this is a complete non-issue, and I strongly suspect that if public opinion turned so far as to make it an issue, the US would withdraw their troops before entering into a war with a powerful western nation that would almost inevitably turn into another world war. This is really not what I'd call an occupation.
- onli 13y agoIsn't the US already (slowly) withdrawing/reducing the stationed troops? Besides, germany wouldn't really have a chance. The few nuclear rockets we control would probably not be ready in time. The USA could just bomb germany down, like it was planned in case of a war with the UDSSR.
- TallGuyShort 13y agoGermany itself isn't the only reason I doubt the US would attack Germany. If the US attacked Germany, I'm sure most of Europe would side with Germany at this point. So it would be akin to attacking all of Europe. Not something that's worth a single NSA leak, I'm sure.
- _ak 13y ago> They are still surprisingly tolerant of the long term military occupation of their country by the US. It's not exactly occupation anymore. Plus the US brought in the big money through the Marshall plan, starting a big economic boom. Even nowadays companies can get cheap loans from KfW bank that is essentially Marshall plan money.
- fallenhitokiri 13y agoI think tolerate is the wrong word. I live and grew up near on of the military bases. If I would not have met some people stationed there and had the chance to visit them I would only have known there is a big area which is well guarded. There is and was no incident I am aware of involving someone from the US military which could have put them in a bad light. Even people I know, who are strictly against military forces and war, do not really care. From my point of view, and I think I am not alone with this one, it is pretty simple. They live there, do their jobs, do not cause trouble and provide jobs. Without considering taxes and other things it is like a branch of an American company.
- uh_oh 13y agoThumbs up for this coming from the conservative party as well. As others have said, this really is a bi-partisan issue and we should build as broad a coalition of the unwilling as possible.
- danielweber 13y agoIt's entirely typical for conservatives to dislike other countries' intelligence and military capabilities, for pretty obvious reasons.
- fosap 13y agoI do not expect to much. Our governments are extremly careful not to interfere with US interests. Stasi documents about the CIA? Unlawfully given to the CIA and not published. The man responsible is now the president. Merkel, started her career in the pro-dictatorship eastern CDU. Worked for the FDJ (somewhat GDR equivalent to the Hilter youth) as PR manager. Not doing anything against the abduction of Kurznatz by the CIA. "Opposing" the Iraq war, but allow the US air fields to operate. It goes on and on and on. This is just a little rethorics. See also: Isle "facebook" Eigner.
- pgeorgi 13y agoWe have elections in September, and this is an issue where they can't do anything, don't suffer in any way, but have a chance for free friendly press. Meanwhile, the same conservative party added biometric photos and fingerprints to official documents (mandantory on some, optional on others); happily sends over flight and banking data to the US (they were in favor of the SWIFT agreement); established their own flavor of communication data ("metadata") retention policies ignoring both arguments and protects; collect traffic data "for street charge purposes only"; now want to use both for tracking down increasingly minor offenses (despite originally arguing that this wouldn't ever happen, and opponents to those laws are paranoid when assuming so much). So yes, it's great that they oppose PRISM (if only to keep the topic in the media). But it's probably just out of jealousy because their own implementation is so much weaker.
- return0 13y agothis is a great movie about surveilance in the east germany. I don't know how accurate though. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/
- kingi 13y agovery imaginable
- untog 13y agoI have a nerdish interest in the Stasi for reasons I can't quite explain. I've not seen the movie, but I'd recommend Stasiland: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasiland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasiland as an account of various people who lived under the Stasi. Also, The File: http://www.amazon.com/The-File-A-Personal-History/dp/0679777857 http://www.amazon.com/The-File-A-Personal-History/dp/0679777... The (again, factual) story of someone uncovering their own file and researching its history.
- jckt 13y agoProbably not very accurate (just because most movies aren't, anyway). But I think most of the cast actually lived through the GDR years (in the GDR), and I figure that's how they acted so damn well. To anyone considering watching this, if not for the history, watch it for the movie's sake. You will not be disappointed at all.
- graup 13y agoThat movie is usually regarded as being one of the more accurate ones. E.g. Joachim Gauck (Germany's current president and former head of the Stasi Archives) said that save some inaccuracies many things are presented very well. [1] Definitely worth watching! [1] http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Leben_der_Anderen#Deutsche_Kritik_zur_Darstellung_von_DDR_und_Stasi http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Leben_der_Anderen#Deutsche_...
- zalew 13y ago[trying to say without spoilers] the inaccurate/ridiculous part is that he couldn't do what he did because every one of them had another agent(s) on them precisely to prevent such occurences. they spied on and controlled each other just like they did on citizens. other than that - great movie, and depiction of the strong influence such agencies had on personal lives (to make someone or destroy someone) is accurate. you can also check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_%282012_film%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_%282012_film%29 with a bit similar theme.
- danbruc 13y agoThe headline sounds like an official government statement but then this guy is no one I ever heard of and the only quote I could find does not even mention the word Stasi. American surveillance (literally: compulsive checking) goes definitely to far if it interferes that much with the privacy of internet users. Something like this is unthinkable here. I thought we had overcome this era with the downfall of the DDR. It is just ridiculous what they made out of this (unless I just failed to find the complete statement).
- morsch 13y agoWell, he is a member of the European Parliament, so there's that. Most MEPs aren't very widely know, though, even compared to members of the national assemblies. They also have the luxury of being in a sort of permanent opposition against national governments and the more powerful parts of the EU government. I agree that the story is overblown, although the concern about the whole thing in Germany and all of Europe is obviously very real and hopefully will turn into a greater concern over what our own governments are doing. I hope a lot of conservatives are caught finger pointing in the next few days, if nothing else just to see them squirm when they're supposed to wave through the next set of laws curtailing internet freedom.
- pvnick 13y ago"Mr. Obama, tear down this PRISM"
- wahsd 13y agoStasi.? Germans are simply shying away from comparing it to the Nazis' unimaginable wet dream because of a very self-conscious sensitivity about the matter. But don't fool yourselves, ignoring other unrelated, horrible outcomes that were a consequence of the times, this level of surveillance is by far worse than anything that has ever existed in all of human history. It is tantamount to mind reading, and without a doubt on the exact trail to that outcome.
- danbruc 13y agoWhen it comes to surveillance the Stasi did a way better job than any NS organisation.
- v0lta 13y agoThrough sheer manpower however. Because of this, it wasn't a secret that everyone has been watched. That doesn't make it better, but gives it an own taste compared to PRISM.
- sentenza 13y agoWhile I principally agree with you, I must add that _the_ data protection related historical event that impressed me most is how the Nazis used the excellent Dutch census data that fell into their hands to round up the Jews of the Netherlands. I don't know how widespread knowledge of this is (I was taught it in school), but I've heard it brought up a few times in discussions about personal data.
- craigyk 13y agoWhile we are pointing fingers... why are the Germans so set on laying the economic foundation for WWIII? We get it, you feel like you shouldn't have to rescue "lazy bums", but get over it already and suck it up. The US massively spent too reconstruct Germany after WWII, partially because of the realization that post-WWI financial destitution was part of the groundwork for WWII. It's not like your entirely blameless here either Germany, your banks made the questionable decision to lend money to those lazy bums so they could buy back German goods.
- bejar37 13y agoHonestly, I'm starting to feel like the lack of comments from European leaders about the infringement of non-American's data might be because they know they might be the next to get caught with their hands in the honey pot. I can't tell if I'm just starting to be part of the tin-foil hat crowd though.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- NameNickHN 13y agoIf they could, they would implement something like PRISM as fast as possible. The German parliament tries for years now to establish data collection.
- salimmadjd 13y agoWe are in the Stasi 2.0 era now in US. Everything you do, buy, places you visit, people you socialize, your interests, opinions, everything you say, etc. is under surveillance. Funny how East Germans would risk their lives just to escape their Stasi-controlled world.
- Shivetya 13y agoSo they are mad why? They didn't think of it first or that all this exposure of the US version might mean someone will expose theirs? To be honest I am not sure if any of these governments is trust worthy in this regard.
- Smrchy 13y agoThe last time Obama held a public speech in Berlin he was cheered like he was Michael Jackson and the Pope in one person. This was before he was elected for his first term. Back then there was no need to preselect his audience. Tens of thousands just came to celebrate him. It will be interesting to see how he is greeted by the German public this time. In Berlin. At the Branderburger Tor. Will he talk about freedom?
- nijk 13y agoThese Germans? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/15/world/europe/uproar-in-germany-on-police-use-of-surveillance-software.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/15/world/europe/uproar-in-ger...
- PavlovsCat 13y ago> "The more a society monitors, controls and observes its citizens, the less free it is," she said. Okay, it's not Merkel herself who said that. But she sits still while people do, right? I remember seeing some random youtube video of Merkel giving a speech during an election campaign, talking (nay, bragging) about video surveillance of inner cities (something she basically gives the CDU credit for, which "fought" for that), saying roughly: "some people say that's only useful to catch parking violations, but if you don't deal with parking violations, you don't have to be surprised if it gets worse." To have Merkel be indignated on my behalf is a DISGUSTING idea. She's opportunistic and spineless, she stands for exactly nothing (other than "Security and Prosperity" of course; just like Kohl she wouldn't recognize what makes life great for decent people even after she squashed it). She, Obama, and all the other people who had their chances, in some cases decades of them, should consider just kindly shutting the fuck up, and sticking to their own, hopefully doomed, bandwagons.
- wedesoft 13y agoWe Germans shouldn't forget that in 2009 our government tried to implement a similar kind of surveillance. This lead to Tauss leaving the social democrats and join the Pirate Party. http://www.wedesoft.de/tauss-against-censorship.html http://www.wedesoft.de/tauss-against-censorship.html
- znowi 13y agoSpeaking of Stasi, I would like to recommend a great movie called The Lives of Others http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/