11 ms·

Apple Literally Stole my Thunder

509 points by alariccole 13y ago

crazygringo 13y ago
Gotta say... best post title I've seen in a while. But still a very valid point. I would really support legislation governing online marketplaces, so that this kind of abuse couldn't take place. A company shouldn't have to be a monopoly, for anticompetitive behavior to become illegal.
- dangrossman 13y ago
  Where does that stop? You have a nice little directory of apps you built at http://mjbaldwin.net http://mjbaldwin.net. If monopoly is no longer a requirement before the government steps in, you could have to list my apps and anyone else's that wants to be included. Why should you have the editorial control over what's included in your site you want to take away from Apple?
  - paulgb 13y ago
    I'm not necessarily in favor of government intervention here, but I do like the Android model: there is a sanctioned marketplace as the preferred distribution channel, but it's not the required distribution channel. This allows editorial control without creating a monopoly on app distribution for that platform.
  - ChikkaChiChi 13y ago
    it stops when you refuse to concede any sort of control in a vertical market you monopolize.
  - Zimahl 13y ago
    Your definition of 'monopoly' is not helping your argument. Apple controls a very big portion of the handheld market and that portion is completely roped off by iTunes. Worse, if they see something they are doing, whether it's better or not, you can't get your competing app onto their device. Was this not the same issue with Sun's Java and IE back in the 90s? Meanwhile, crazygringo has a website. Sure he controls the content of the site but doesn't prevent anyone else from publishing on the internet. If 'mjbaldwin.net' was one of only a couple portals on the internet, you might have an argument there.
    - dangrossman 13y ago
      I didn't define monopoly or claim he had one. Re-read his suggestion: "a company shouldn't have to be a monopoly for anticompetitive behavior to become illegal".
  - MatthewPhillips 13y ago
    IANAL, Apple has an absolute monopoly on iOS, does this mean nothing?
    - dangrossman 13y ago
      Monopoly power is only regulated in the context of a relevant market (a term with specific legal meaning). The relevant market the iPhone is operating in is not the iOS market, it's the smartphone market, where there are many alternatives and Apple makes only 18% of the devices. Apple doesn't have monopoly power in the relevant market, so nothing it does can be an abuse of monopoly power, which is what's regulated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relevant_market https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relevant_market
      - MatthewPhillips 13y ago
        How is iOS itself not a market? Just curious. I know its more complicated than the Wikipedia and again IANAL but it seems to fit to me.
        deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
        dangrossman 13y ago
        That's like saying "McDonalds controls the Big Mac market". Yes, it does, but the Big Mac is not a relevant market for competition law, it's just a product within one or more relevant markets. > In competition law the Relevant market defines the market in which one or more goods compete. There are substitute goods to iOS that compete with it for consumers (Android, Windows, etc). The relevant market is where that competition is occurring: the smartphone and tablet markets.
        MatthewPhillips 13y ago
        > That's like saying "McDonalds controls the Big Mac market". Yes, it does, but the Big Mac is not a relevant market for competition law, it's just a product within one or more relevant markets. But McDonalds is analogous to iTunes, not iOS. iOS is more like.. a city when McDonalds operates. If McDonalds also owned the city and banned all other fast food restaurants. > The relevant market is where that competition is occurring: the smartphone and tablet markets. But that's an artificial construct. The competition is there because it's the only place competition is allowed.
  - crazygringo 13y ago
    Well thanks! :) I'm not a legislator, of course, but in my mind it would run something like: - if you have over x third-party selling participants (say, 50 or 500) - and the marketplace provides services to the "general public" (e.g. the Apple Store, qualifies, an intranet market would not) - and the marketplace has revenue over x per day (say, $10,000) - then participation in the marketplace must be governed by a clear, unambiguous set of rules that gives no advantage to products made/sold by the owner/administrator of the marketplace, and all interpretation of the rules, or challenges to such interpretation, must be made by a neutral, third-party arbitrator without influence from or by the owner/administrator of the marketplace - and additionally, rules of the marketplace must not be written in order to give any kind of explicit or "implicit" advantage to the owner/administrator of the marketplate (Apple can't always feature its own Maps application over Google's, for example) These specific rules are totally off the top of my head, but it's just a kind of idea -- once any market reaches a certain size, it's in the general public interest to ensure a level playing field and due process -- I mean, that's what things like court-enforceable contracts, food regulation, stock exchange and public company regulation, etc. are all about.
    - scholia 13y ago
      I agree with you, but apps for games consoles (Wii/PS4/Xbox) are at least as controlled than the iTunes monopoly store. Heck, Google can cripple or even kill small businesses by excluding them from its search index, and like Apple, it can do exactly what it likes to further its own interests. There's no penalty for monopolistic behavior unless you are actually found to be a monopoly, in which case stuff you may have thought was legal suddenly becomes illegal and you get dinged for it.
    - Steko 13y ago
      You're trying to solve the problem of "app x/y/z not approved in store" but all you've done is move those goalposts to the third party arbitrator who now has a financial incentive to deny approval to anything. Just no. Even worse your solution is effectively a government takeover of any store over size X. Trying to force goods on vendors is not the free market, it's central planning lite. Apple runs it's store the way it wants to. If you don't like it don't sell your wares there, don't shop there, picket their retail locations, call for boycotts online, etc.
  - jarrett 13y ago
    I would draw the line between platforms on the one hand and 3rd party products and services on the other. Examples of platforms: A phone operating system, a desktop operating system, a browser. Examples of 3rd party products and services: A site with apps reviewed and upvoted by users, a curated app review site, an app store that's not affiliated with the hardware or OS maker. Controlling the former offers real opportunities for anticompetitive behavior. You have buyer lock-in, and you can dictate the terms on which others may develop for your platform. You can push people off your platform when their goals conflict with yours. This is a logical place for some regulation designed to protect and promote a free market. With the latter, there aren't any special ways to be anticompetitive. By special, I mean distinct from the ways in which, say, a chemical company could be anticompetitive. Your example of a "nice little directory of apps you built" would fall into this category. No industry-specific regulation is warranted for this type of product or service, since you're not in a position to hinder the free market.
    - Steko 13y ago
      "This is a logical place for some regulation designed to protect and promote a free market." The government forcing me to carry your product =/= free market. Let's say I have a platform for kids. Now I can't disapprove adult apps? Are you effing kidding me?
      - jarrett 13y ago
        > The government forcing me to carry your product =/= free market. Preserving a free market sometimes requires regulation of anticompetitive behavior. That necessarily impinges on the economic freedoms of the largest players. But the intent is for such regulation to yield a net increase in market freedom. > Let's say I have a platform for kids. Now I can't disapprove adult apps? Are you effing kidding me? Presumably, a good law would make some allowances for things like this. It's not that you have to approve literally anything anyone wants to sell.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    Apple should maintain full editorial control. It's their App Store, and they should be able to have it contain whatever they want. However, it is not their iPhone in my pocket anymore. The ownership changed when they got my money. They should not have any control over what it runs, and yet it only runs those things which Apple puts in their store. This is the real problem.
eggbrain 13y ago
Unfortunately, this isn't the first time this happened. This also won't be the last time either. When you build apps on a platform, be ready to run into brick walls if you start to enter (or have already entered) areas that the platform wants to get into -- that goes for Facebook and Twitter as much as it does for Apple as well.
- zeugmatis 13y ago
  I know people who have been royally screwed by exactly this - they give you an API, devs everywhere come up with ideas, do the hard work - and the platform picks the low hanging fruit. Not only do they get carte blanche to steal peoples ideas but the licenses often give them complete rights to steal your source code as well.
  - craigyk 13y ago
    Steal your source code? Examples please... maybe you mean steal designs? I won't argue that one.
  - rmrfrmrf 13y ago
    A weather app is really a 3-hour project; a rudimentary exercise in retrieving and parsing some kind of structured data. To say that any part of this supposed app was "hard work" is disingenuous. Furthermore, the concept of photorealistic animations for weather isn't new, so really this person added nothing of value to the Apple ecosystem. And, wouldn't you know it, the App Store rejected this weather app for exactly that reason! That's not to say that there aren't instances where this has happened to devs, but I feel like your indignation is a bit wasted on an app this inconsequential.
    - general_failure 13y ago
      > A weather app is really a 3-hour project; Someone recommended that pg flash the HN title bar whenever such insightful comments are made. I would like to +1 that idea.
zobzu 13y ago
I think it'd be hard for me to call them out with much harsher words, if that happened to me. This stuff is as unfair as it gets, but then again, that's the norm today ain't it?
milesskorpen 13y ago
While I totally understand why you're angry, I'm almost certain Apple's app review team does NOT have access to pre-release versions of iOS, so this probably didn't happen because Apple was working on similar functionality.
- quackerhacker 13y ago
  I agree, while his posting is totally justified and I understand, I believe that their ui/ux dev teams are not apart of the app review processing.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- Zimahl 13y ago
  I didn't get that he was hinting at that. The problem is what Apple thinks is significant to the platform when they develop it versus when it's an outside developer.
- wilfra 13y ago
  When Steve Jobs was around all the really great ideas probably found their way directly to him. If he then decided to call any of those ideas his own and reject the apps, do you think anybody at Apple would defy him? Whomever that person is now (Jony Ive?) probably got ahold of this app and did the same thing. Very easy to hide all of this under the veil of 'we were already working on something like that'. The author even acknowledges as much. So blatant theft is basically impossible to prove. But it's pretty naive to think that does not go on.
  - blocking_io 13y ago
    I very much doubt the app reviewers have any better access to Apple executives than you or I. They are like call centre staff.
    - wilfra 13y ago
      That's why I said 'found their way'. It would just be a matter of training and infrastructure to make the process efficient. Example: an internal 'is this one of the coolest apps you have ever seen?' option given to all app reviewers. One guy whose job it is to review all apps where that box was checked. If he agrees, he sends them on to somebody on Jony Ives team. If they agree, they send it on to Jony.
revelation 13y ago
HTCs custom Sense UI had this all along (even on Windows Mobile, I think): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlTOI7ZUziQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlTOI7ZUziQ It's, uhh, not exactly novel.
- alariccole 13y ago
  That is a cloud graphic moving along an animated path. I'm talking about generated graphics--very different.
  - baby 13y ago
    Still kind of the same idea. Nothing new.
joelrunyon 13y ago
Doesn't Haze already do this? http://gethaze.com/ http://gethaze.com/ Seems strange that they would let some animated weather apps through and not others...
austinl 13y ago
I think this got through too http://conditionsapp.com/ http://conditionsapp.com/
- alariccole 13y ago
  Lots of them got through!
thret 13y ago
Obligatory xkcd: http://xkcd.com/725/ http://xkcd.com/725/
- 205guy 13y ago
  Indeed. At first, I thought the use of "literally" was hyperbole. Then it almost sounded like Apple had stolen his thunder graphic (in which case, it would've been an awesome title). But no, so back to hyperbole. I do feel for the OP, but given the number of other animated weather apps, I don't think he had any thunder to steal.
  - Dylan16807 13y ago
    It's not hyperbole. Apple stole the place in the app store.
speeder 13y ago
I think the most weird part, is that I made a app exactly like that, but with cartoon instead of realistic, and it got approved on the first attempt. For those wondering, it is this one: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/weather-and-clock-for-kids/id596055030?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/weather-and-clock-for-kids/i... Granted, a bit more than a month ago, Apple rejected a update for it (because the message of it complaining of lack of GPS had a ok button that quit the APP), and it was really weird, because the thing they complained always existed on the app, and I on purpose proposed a terrible alternative, and they said they wanted THAT. So I DID made the terrible alternative on my point of view, and now the app uses that...
nemothekid 13y ago
The iOS 7 weather app looks like they just told Yahoo! to build the new app. Almost everything is the same down the typography, which isn't to say they stole it, seeing how iOS' weather is powered by Yahoo! That said, I'm not sure there are too many ways you can innovate a weather app. HTC Sense has been doing animated conditions for over 4 years now.
andrewmunsell 13y ago
Way back in 2010, I developed an app called World Weather Watch for WebOS: http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-apps-games/231824-introducing-world-weather-watch.html http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-apps-games/231824-introd... It had animations and an "overview" screen that had times, temperatures, and forecasts. Here's a couple of screenshots: http://us.appitalism.com/app/palm-webos/244623-world-weather-watch-time-weather/ http://us.appitalism.com/app/palm-webos/244623-world-weather... I also developed World Weather Watch for Mac OS X: http://www.andrewmunsell.com/work/world-weather-watch/ http://www.andrewmunsell.com/work/world-weather-watch/ (The animated weather concept was inspired by HTC's Sense UI, though as far as I can remember, the overview list was entirely my own concept and idea) So, the concept of animated weather, or even Apple's overview list of weather and times, goes back much farther than a couple of months. EDIT: If anyone's curious what World Weather Watch for WebOS looks like in motion, I made a video a while back too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3tS7n4VAsk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3tS7n4VAsk
dualogy 13y ago
This is why mobile apps just don't appeal to me -- the "approval" of what I create by any committee other than the actual-end-user marketplace. Having grown up sharing one's programs and work in a simple, radically open (if slightly risky for somewhat naive users) "download and install" or "install from floppy/CD" or "build from source" exploratory environment, I'd feel extremely foolish submitting my stuff for approval. I'd feel submissive. I don't want Apple's or Google's or Microsoft's or Facebook's permission to share software I make, only their users' choice for or against. Firefox OS is my only hope but in mobile, they'd also need to get some significant traction going fast. Chrome Apps are cool, Android is cool, but "Play Store" -- if it's just remotely as "submit for approval" as Apple, then thanks but no thanks. Thankfully, we still have web dev, mobile web, and a huge base of non-mobile "desktop-OS" software users.
- mdwrigh2 13y ago
  > Chrome Apps are cool, Android is cool, but "Play Store" -- if it's just remotely as "submit for approval" as Apple, then thanks but no thanks. It isn't. There's no approval process. Pay your developer registration fee and start putting apps in the store.
Stevens 13y ago
This article has the best headline ever.
smsm42 13y ago
That's what you get for submitting to the development model controlled by faceless bureaucracy invested with monopoly power. And now people are calling for government intervention there - because if you have a faceless bureaucracy with kafkian rules and rampant rumors of abuse, adding government to it always helps.
- r00fus 13y ago
  I agree to all but the government part. Government in this case is a set of rules, optionally with an enforcement body (e.g.: public utility commission) that puts fear into the provider. The only problem with the above is that it requires sane and non-corrupt legislators. Those are getting fewer by the election season in the US.
  - smsm42 13y ago
    Putting fear into people is, of course, a worthy goal. But I'd prefer making situation better instead, and making one bureaucracy fear another... well, you can see how well it is working now. No way two layers of stupid, obtuse and possibly corrupt bureaucracy can be worse than one for the people having to deal with them, right? >>> The only problem with the above is that it requires sane and non-corrupt legislators. Yeah, there's a tiny-tiny problem with that... As soon as we solve it, everything else would be just peachy.
jussij 13y ago
It always makes me sigh when I read stories like this. For decades Microsoft was bashed for offering up a closed system, yet the reality was Microsoft would let you sell any type of software for Windows and they couldn't care less. Then along comes Apple with it's tightly closed, highly controlled platform and no one raises a murmur, but rather everyone seems to celebrate the idea. Watching on are the rest of the big players and they see how successful Apple has been, so they all start madly creating their own closed systems. The reality is none of these issues existed in the old style Windows system, but thanks to the success of Apple, those days are now gone :( Developers are now forever beholden to the big corporates.
- hipsterdouche 13y ago
  What you said made 100% sense. However, it goes against the core values of the iphone-ipad-ishit-toting cat-gif-downloading html-programming black-rim-glasses-sporting self-described-nerd social-hacking steve-jobs-worshipping nauseating douchebags that infect "hacker" news like a plague.
- Fomite 13y ago
  You have an interesting definition of "no one raises a murmur".
  - harlanlewis 13y ago
    For true. People have made noise about this since before OS X 10.2 Sherlocked Watson.
  - drivebyacct2 13y ago
    When even the people who ought to care - the techies that know better - buy into it, I think it's fair to characterize an overall sense of acceptance.
    - shinratdr 13y ago
      Which isn't anywhere close to "without a murmur". People bitched for literally YEARS before caving.
inselkampf 13y ago
I really doubt somehow that app reviews in Apple are cahoots with the internal app developers. Apple is too secretive for that.
rorrr2 13y ago
So did you learn your lesson? DON'T DEVELOP FOR APPLE. Considering how many horror stories we've seen, I wonder why anybody would waste their time developing apps for that weird company. Develop for open systems instead. They will win in the end.
- mahyarm 13y ago
  Cause apple users pay more, a lot more. It usually comes down to money in the end. The way to mitigate this risk is to create an MVP that you don't put a lot of work into. Then afterwards iterate and improve upon it.
- parasubvert 13y ago
  Apple, Microsoft, not to mention Oracle, IBM, CA, etc. are still making money hand over fist. They all make money by selling closed source systems that may or may not have open sub-systems. You have a curious definition of "win in the end".
  - rorrr2 13y ago
    Microsoft OSes don't have any restrictions on what software to run. Apple does make money, but Android and Microsoft are eating their market share like mad. Apple was smart enough to invent a new market, but isn't smart enough to keep it.
    - xmodem 13y ago
      > Microsoft OSes don't have any restrictions on what software to run. They didn't until windows 8. The 'classic' desktop hasn't changed, but you can't run Modern UI apps other than from the app store, and on ARM you can't run anything that's not modern UI unless it's from Microsoft. Microsoft also has other OS platforms (Windows phone) with exactly the same model as Apple's, only less transparent.
    - rimantas 13y ago
      Check your numbers.
ChikkaChiChi 13y ago
it's not impossible that the Dev teams flag certain categories of apps shortly before launch dates to prevent similar applications from stealing their thunder so to speak. after all why get egg on their face when you violate the developer agreement retroactively?
ChikkaChiChi 13y ago
it's not impossible that the Dev teams flag certain categories of apps shortly before launch dates to prevent similar applications from stealing their thunder so to speak. after all why get egg on their face when you violate the developer agreement retroactively?
signed0 13y ago
Somewhat related, the BBC launched a new weather app for the iPhone (and Android) today. http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/appsblog/2013/jun/10/bbc-weather-app-iphone-android http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/appsblog/2013/jun/10/bbc-wea... Perhaps the requirements are somewhat relaxed for large entities.
jonheller 13y ago
Outside App (http://www.outsideapp.com/ http://www.outsideapp.com/) came out two years ago and did this. Not as nice, no question, but I think the guy's paranoia about the rejection is way off base. Though I do agree that there doesn't seem to be a good reason to reject it.
jdmaresco 13y ago
Is it possible that the app review teams were instructed to find a reason to reject all apps in a given category for a month or two leading up to the release of iOS7? Were other weather-related apps approved recently?
piyush_soni 13y ago
People still don't take a lesson from this. They have done exactly the same thing before. Apple is EVIL, understand that. May be one of the most evil tech company out there.
- eridius 13y ago
  Are you honestly calling Apple evil because they updated the built-in weather app to include realistic weather effects? That sure sets a low bar for what it means to be evil.
  - piyush_soni 13y ago
    Really? That's what you understood from the whole article?
TheMagicHorsey 13y ago
Look, man, I feel really bad for you. But there are lots of open platforms to develop apps for. You make a choice when you decide to specialize in iOS apps. The choice you make is to make yourself a bitch to the arbitrary whims of some goofball asshole sitting in Cupertino, who doesn't give a fuck about your aspirations or vision. You can complain all you want, but they made the garden, and they can do whatever the fuck they want with it. It blows. But now you know why you need to support an open platform.
- eropple 13y ago
  > But there are lots of open platforms to develop apps for. No, there aren't, because a critical part of "platform to develop apps for" is a user base. Specifically, a user base willing to pay money for things. On mobile, that means iOS and to a much lesser extent Android and Windows Phone. "Develop for an open platform" is like telling somebody to grow a third leg. There are no relevant open platforms. Nor will there be, because consumers do not value openness and no other developers are going to damage themselves by only providing products on niche systems.
  - TheMagicHorsey 13y ago
    The web is an open platform. Linux is an open platform. Android is an open platform in the sense that, if Google blocks you from the Play Store, people can still install your APK off the web.
    - eropple 13y ago
      Web applications intrinsically suck and aren't particularly viable unless your product fits the SaaS business model (I find that most things of value to me do not, personally) and unless you want to spend your life supporting SaaS (I like not getting pager alerts at 3AM). Linux has such a small userbase as to be essentially irrelevant. Platform fragmentation is a massive pain in the ass and its users are generally unwilling to spend money on software (video game addictions aside). Android has a userbase but they don't seem to really spend money, either; the overwhelmingly dominant revenue source for most cross-platform applications is iOS. And I say that as somebody who really likes Android and uses a Nexus 4 and Nexus 7 as daily devices. You can "develop for an open platform" and have shit-all for a potential ceiling or you can take the (generally minor) risk of developing for iOS and actually have a chance (if small) of making something that pays for itself. It's disingenous to tell developers "well, develop for an open platform" when doing so means you don't pay your rent.
hawkharris 13y ago
In response to Apple's initial response to the "Images" app: I'm amazed by the disconnect between how people really feel about porn and how they purport to feel about it. Sexual desire is a basic human need. The vast majority of American men and women view pornography, yet few acknowledge it. I appreciate that this is difficult to change because prudishness is deeply engrained in our culture, but I would like to see tech companies take a more progressive role in opening up a realistic dialogue about sex.
- shabble 13y ago
  It's a lot less risk for an organisation to appear prudish or paternal than to give their opponents a free attack ad about "corrupting our children/society". The weird rules (apps vs browsers) likely just fall out from the "censorship theater", in a parallel with airport security. It's an escape hatch, giving the organisation an "At least we tried!" defence.
ethanazir 13y ago
Have a great idea? submit it to us. If we like it we will pretend its our own.
pablasso 13y ago
I get his frustration, but I don't think an animated weather on a weather app is such an innovation that someone else couldn't think of.
- ozten 13y ago
  The OP made the point that it was a commodity app. He didn't claim earthshaking originality. He was proud of his superior execution and baffled at rejection.
  - JasonSage 13y ago
    Thank you so much for pointing this out, apparently a lot of people missed this point. The topic of this discussion shouldn't be setting out to prove that the OP was not the first to bring this kind of app to the table, but rather how (un)justified it was to be rejected.
kschua 13y ago
I can empathize with you. Back in 2009, I created a call filtering app for Blackberry which had the ability to determine if a call is urgent based on the frequency of the incoming call and to block the call if it was not urgent. Guess what, in 2012, Apple put in an uncannily similar feature called "Repeated Call" in iOS 6
bredren 13y ago
They built some of your app concept into the core of the phone. They rejected your app because they were about to debut their version. It makes sense why they did it, and it was fair of them to do it. However, they should have let your app go into the app store. It is unlikely your app would have made techcrunch headlines or taken the world by storm (ha ha) but even if it had, Apple had nothing to fear. Which makes it strange that the company rejected it. They couldn't exactly say, "Sorry, but things in your app are going to be in a keynote. We're working on the same thing." Situations of an app being rejected by apple due to a forthcoming release are rare. (though I do know of another example by a prominent developer) Your story is a nice read, however your other experiences of rejection are not related to this one. They also speak to a different time for the app review team.
gridmaths 13y ago
Take the graphics, concept, UI and remake it as an HTML5 app. You could even increase sales using "..stole my thunder" as a meme :]
eridius 13y ago
"Months before"? If your weather app is only a few months old, then you are far from the first person to do what you're describing. I had an app on my iPad that provided exactly the experience you're describing, and that was I think at least 2 years old (I don't remember the name anymore).
- mturmon 13y ago
  Weather+ is somewhat like this. It uses HD video clips, not vector art, but it accomplishes a similar task. It has been around for a couple of years at least.
  - eridius 13y ago
    It looks like the app I was thinking of is called Clear Day[1], but it was known as Weather HD back when I used it. [1]: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/clear-day-formerly-weather/id364193735?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/clear-day-formerly-weather/i...
    - alariccole 13y ago
      Yeah, completely different. That app simply used videos of locales.
- OriginalAT 13y ago
  That's only one small part of the story. I think the main thing here is that he had an app that he worked on that was rejected because Apple felt nobody wanted it, and then a few months later Apple releases pretty much the same thing itself and everyone loves it.
  - alariccole 13y ago
    That's pretty much it.
  - eridius 13y ago
    It's not that Apple felt nobody wanted a weather app, it's that there are a lot of weather apps on the store already. The App Store guidelines do tell you that apps that replicate existing functionality may be rejected. And Apple already had a weather app, all they did was update it to be better.
usaphp 13y ago
Can we see a working example of the app or at least screenshots? Because the execution of the concept can be bad and this is why apple rejected your app?
- nleach 13y ago
  He links to it in the comments: http://horizonapp.com http://horizonapp.com
  - dirkgently 13y ago
    My eyes! No, not the app, but the very tall form factor of that device!
drawkbox 13y ago
This does suck, I wish it was a true free market. But it still is more open than say console markets or even Steam. I am not sure why they don't fully trust the market to produce and choose the apps. But in the end we are sharecroppers in a kingdom, they built the platform and have the last say. Diversify to other platforms (I am sure android or windows market would like to see this) but don't stop developing. Every once in a while they let you know with a rejection who's platform it is. In the future maybe it will be fully open, it is what drove Android markets in the early days. I am still surprised one of the competing markets hasn't been more open or taken less than 30%. They just line up behind Apple following suit. Personally from a game developer perspective, Apple is the most open viable market that has been created for game developers and remade handheld gaming. From a web developer perspective it is more closed.
alexobenauer 13y ago
To be fair, the app review team is not the iOS development team, and they are not informed about the developments from the iOS team.
k-mcgrady 13y ago
I highly doubt that app reviewers had information on what was coming in iOS 7 and to bias reviews based on that.
coin 13y ago
Yet another site that disables pinch zoom on iOS. He develops iOS apps yet makes his webpage hostile to iOS browsing.
- dirkgently 13y ago
  I am not sure, but doesn't Apple allow more than one browsers in their walled garden?
desireco42 13y ago
Who cares, you didn't have to develop for their closed system. You could make apps for macs that can be downloaded if you care so much about programming for macs. Honestly, who cares. Also, whatever happens once, doesn't have to happen ever again, but if it happens twice, it will almost certainly happen again. You will get burned over and over, unless you get smart.
robterrell 13y ago
As a developer of a weather app myself, I seriously doubt that Apple refused your app due to its use of video clips & the possibility of its competing with iOS 7's weather app. Yahoo weather exists, after all, and it's really close in look & feel.
gboudrias 13y ago
Why in the hell do people still develop for Apple? It seems like an uphill battle...
ccera 13y ago
Apple's app store review "process" is complete bullshit, but this kind of weather app already exists for iOS and Android, and has for a couple years or more. I've installed probably 4 or 5 of them between the two platforms, all with beautiful high-def animations, etc. (and uninstalled all of them, since I find the simpler WeatherBug to be more than adequate for me).
nleach 13y ago
Sad story, but I think it's being blown out of scale. In the comments on his post, he linked to the app's teaser site: http://www.horizonapp.com http://www.horizonapp.com I really don't see how this app could "confidently" stand up to the new Weather.app
paul_f 13y ago
Your app probably sucked and Apple had to pick some reason to deny it. Any excuse will do, no?
thisisomebs 13y ago
How the hell are you guys viewing this site? I get a "sign in to collaborate" bullshit.
dirkgently 13y ago
So from most of the defensive arguments here is in the form of classic... "well, that sucks... but... Apple must have a reason, so it's okay?". Really? On a site full of tech geeks and nerds? When did majority of us lose our balls and become so meek?
rohamg 13y ago
but.. this isn't anywhere near a new idea.. Weather HD, now Clear Day, is by a team in Egypt and has been doing the animated weather thing for years: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/clear-day-formerly-weather/id364193735?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/clear-day-formerly-weather/i...
inkaudio 13y ago
Perhaps not, Solar app: http://thisissolar.com http://thisissolar.com has very similar effects. It was not rejected and it is still in the app store. Off course it does not have the full marketing of Apple behind it, but still.
hnriot 13y ago
I agree with apple, the world doesn't need another weather app that does nothing more than animate clouds and snow etc. the apple weather app that we all saw today is a world clock, has pinch to summary, a ton of more useful info and was layered both in visual appearance and functionality. By comparison your weather app was highly simplistic and looks like someone concocted in a weekend without being finished. I don't mean to sound harsh, but I wouldn't have given your weather app another look when you put it up against apple's new one one or yahoo's existing one. If anyone should be whining it should be yahoo, they even have the layers idea going on where the scroll panes slide at slightly different speeds. Very much like Apple's accelerometer driven panes.
par128 13y ago
Our weather app YoWindow features computer generated sky just like ios 7 app. Despite of this it was approved by Apple 2 months ago. https://itunes.apple.com/app/id606193225 https://itunes.apple.com/app/id606193225 Quick link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtD2VosqX3Y http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtD2VosqX3Y Alaric, I know it's depressing to see that you idea is copied. But I think in this case Apple didn't sole. Be brave and move on. Eventually you win. Just a bad luck.
dba7dba 13y ago
"I developed a weather app a few months ago which was also rejected." Alaric tries to believe that the rejection of his app wasn't because of the ios7 but considering how long ios7 was under development, I'm pretty sure they rejected it because of its similarity to ios7's weather app. Pretty sure Apple wouldn't want some indie developer to upstage the awesome devs/designers of Apple.
general_failure 13y ago
Most developers are there to make a living. Expecting ideals from them is a little too much. They probably have ideals in others spheres of life. I wouldn't expect most devs to just follow the money and continue writing iOS apps until it gives them good returns.
kenneth_reitz 13y ago
I’m glad I’m not alone! I made a very very similar that did nothing but show you images of things you searched for. Apple disabled my account one day, without explaining why to me. Today, they owe me $17,000. I contact them every few months, and never hear anything back but silence.
dave1010uk 13y ago
Come join us on the Open Web. It's actually really good now. There may be restrictions and difficulties but no one will stop you getting your hard work out there.
venomsnake 13y ago
I do hope that with PRISM revelations the walled garden system may be on its way to reforms. If enough people wake up to the topic how important device and software control is for the owner there will be pure market pressure and current Apple kinda lack the salesman Steve that is able to override privacy concerns in the public. Also we should have good streamlined legal process to declare software platforms "common carriers" when they are above certain size or market share with all the benefits and responsibilities that come from that. And lets hope cases like that will be greatly reduced.
alexscheelmeyer 13y ago
Given the sometimes arbitrary nature of these rejections, it would seem that a natural strategy would be to keep trying (with changes to meet their expectations) - at some point you should get it approved. Is there some maximum tries that one get to show ones worth as a pubilsher?
grey-area 13y ago
This is why the web will win. Not the web of FaceBook and twitter APIs, but the open web of documents and apps interacting without restrictions. There is a fundamental lack of control and instability in building on a platform owned by a corporation, be that on the web or mobile development.
sharninder 13y ago
I know there is no end to this discussion so I'll just put in my 2cents and GTFO. As a user of Windows systems in the 90s, the so called "openness" was precisely the reason I moved to using Linux. Most software available for Windows, in those days was crap, and I as a user needed something that worked, not mostly but, all the time. Linux gave me that. Even if there was just one office suite (star office, remember?), it worked. After using Linux for about a decade or so, I moved to OS X, since Linux wasn't really going anywhere. The fabled desktop linux wasn't coming and everything seemed in a limbo. OS X and Apple, for all it's faults, works, for the most part, for the user and that's why the platform is popular. We guys here are talking and thinking with our developer hats, but users think very differently.
crimsongene 13y ago
Ofcourse the have to do that now.. short of ideas they are!
Jleagle 13y ago
I hear these stories every month, just make your apps for a different OS if Apple don't want your business.
notlisted 13y ago
I'm sorry, but the app you seem to describe has existed for quite a while. Actually, there are several of them. I installed them on my first iPad (the original) way back when. This is one of them: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/weather-live/id464770748?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/weather-live/id464770748?mt=...
trendspotter 13y ago
There must have been other reasons why his animated weather app was rejected by Apple. There are already very flashy iOS weather apps, just take for example a look at "Clear Day".

509 points by alariccole 13y ago

Gotta say... best post title I've seen in a while. But still a very valid point. I would really support legislation governing online marketplaces, so that this kind of abuse couldn't take place. A company shouldn't have to be a monopoly, for anticompetitive behavior to become illegal.

dangrossman 13y ago
Where does that stop? You have a nice little directory of apps you built at http://mjbaldwin.net http://mjbaldwin.net. If monopoly is no longer a requirement before the government steps in, you could have to list my apps and anyone else's that wants to be included. Why should you have the editorial control over what's included in your site you want to take away from Apple?
- paulgb 13y ago
  I'm not necessarily in favor of government intervention here, but I do like the Android model: there is a sanctioned marketplace as the preferred distribution channel, but it's not the required distribution channel. This allows editorial control without creating a monopoly on app distribution for that platform.
- ChikkaChiChi 13y ago
  it stops when you refuse to concede any sort of control in a vertical market you monopolize.
- Zimahl 13y ago
  Your definition of 'monopoly' is not helping your argument. Apple controls a very big portion of the handheld market and that portion is completely roped off by iTunes. Worse, if they see something they are doing, whether it's better or not, you can't get your competing app onto their device. Was this not the same issue with Sun's Java and IE back in the 90s? Meanwhile, crazygringo has a website. Sure he controls the content of the site but doesn't prevent anyone else from publishing on the internet. If 'mjbaldwin.net' was one of only a couple portals on the internet, you might have an argument there.
  - dangrossman 13y ago
    I didn't define monopoly or claim he had one. Re-read his suggestion: "a company shouldn't have to be a monopoly for anticompetitive behavior to become illegal".
- MatthewPhillips 13y ago
  IANAL, Apple has an absolute monopoly on iOS, does this mean nothing?
  - dangrossman 13y ago
    Monopoly power is only regulated in the context of a relevant market (a term with specific legal meaning). The relevant market the iPhone is operating in is not the iOS market, it's the smartphone market, where there are many alternatives and Apple makes only 18% of the devices. Apple doesn't have monopoly power in the relevant market, so nothing it does can be an abuse of monopoly power, which is what's regulated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relevant_market https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relevant_market
    - MatthewPhillips 13y ago
      How is iOS itself not a market? Just curious. I know its more complicated than the Wikipedia and again IANAL but it seems to fit to me.
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
      - dangrossman 13y ago
        That's like saying "McDonalds controls the Big Mac market". Yes, it does, but the Big Mac is not a relevant market for competition law, it's just a product within one or more relevant markets. > In competition law the Relevant market defines the market in which one or more goods compete. There are substitute goods to iOS that compete with it for consumers (Android, Windows, etc). The relevant market is where that competition is occurring: the smartphone and tablet markets.
        MatthewPhillips 13y ago
        > That's like saying "McDonalds controls the Big Mac market". Yes, it does, but the Big Mac is not a relevant market for competition law, it's just a product within one or more relevant markets. But McDonalds is analogous to iTunes, not iOS. iOS is more like.. a city when McDonalds operates. If McDonalds also owned the city and banned all other fast food restaurants. > The relevant market is where that competition is occurring: the smartphone and tablet markets. But that's an artificial construct. The competition is there because it's the only place competition is allowed.
- crazygringo 13y ago
  Well thanks! :) I'm not a legislator, of course, but in my mind it would run something like: - if you have over x third-party selling participants (say, 50 or 500) - and the marketplace provides services to the "general public" (e.g. the Apple Store, qualifies, an intranet market would not) - and the marketplace has revenue over x per day (say, $10,000) - then participation in the marketplace must be governed by a clear, unambiguous set of rules that gives no advantage to products made/sold by the owner/administrator of the marketplace, and all interpretation of the rules, or challenges to such interpretation, must be made by a neutral, third-party arbitrator without influence from or by the owner/administrator of the marketplace - and additionally, rules of the marketplace must not be written in order to give any kind of explicit or "implicit" advantage to the owner/administrator of the marketplate (Apple can't always feature its own Maps application over Google's, for example) These specific rules are totally off the top of my head, but it's just a kind of idea -- once any market reaches a certain size, it's in the general public interest to ensure a level playing field and due process -- I mean, that's what things like court-enforceable contracts, food regulation, stock exchange and public company regulation, etc. are all about.
  - scholia 13y ago
    I agree with you, but apps for games consoles (Wii/PS4/Xbox) are at least as controlled than the iTunes monopoly store. Heck, Google can cripple or even kill small businesses by excluding them from its search index, and like Apple, it can do exactly what it likes to further its own interests. There's no penalty for monopolistic behavior unless you are actually found to be a monopoly, in which case stuff you may have thought was legal suddenly becomes illegal and you get dinged for it.
  - Steko 13y ago
    You're trying to solve the problem of "app x/y/z not approved in store" but all you've done is move those goalposts to the third party arbitrator who now has a financial incentive to deny approval to anything. Just no. Even worse your solution is effectively a government takeover of any store over size X. Trying to force goods on vendors is not the free market, it's central planning lite. Apple runs it's store the way it wants to. If you don't like it don't sell your wares there, don't shop there, picket their retail locations, call for boycotts online, etc.
- jarrett 13y ago
  I would draw the line between platforms on the one hand and 3rd party products and services on the other. Examples of platforms: A phone operating system, a desktop operating system, a browser. Examples of 3rd party products and services: A site with apps reviewed and upvoted by users, a curated app review site, an app store that's not affiliated with the hardware or OS maker. Controlling the former offers real opportunities for anticompetitive behavior. You have buyer lock-in, and you can dictate the terms on which others may develop for your platform. You can push people off your platform when their goals conflict with yours. This is a logical place for some regulation designed to protect and promote a free market. With the latter, there aren't any special ways to be anticompetitive. By special, I mean distinct from the ways in which, say, a chemical company could be anticompetitive. Your example of a "nice little directory of apps you built" would fall into this category. No industry-specific regulation is warranted for this type of product or service, since you're not in a position to hinder the free market.
  - Steko 13y ago
    "This is a logical place for some regulation designed to protect and promote a free market." The government forcing me to carry your product =/= free market. Let's say I have a platform for kids. Now I can't disapprove adult apps? Are you effing kidding me?
    - jarrett 13y ago
      > The government forcing me to carry your product =/= free market. Preserving a free market sometimes requires regulation of anticompetitive behavior. That necessarily impinges on the economic freedoms of the largest players. But the intent is for such regulation to yield a net increase in market freedom. > Let's say I have a platform for kids. Now I can't disapprove adult apps? Are you effing kidding me? Presumably, a good law would make some allowances for things like this. It's not that you have to approve literally anything anyone wants to sell.
- mikeash 13y ago
  Apple should maintain full editorial control. It's their App Store, and they should be able to have it contain whatever they want. However, it is not their iPhone in my pocket anymore. The ownership changed when they got my money. They should not have any control over what it runs, and yet it only runs those things which Apple puts in their store. This is the real problem.

eggbrain 13y ago

Unfortunately, this isn't the first time this happened. This also won't be the last time either. When you build apps on a platform, be ready to run into brick walls if you start to enter (or have already entered) areas that the platform wants to get into -- that goes for Facebook and Twitter as much as it does for Apple as well.

zeugmatis 13y ago
I know people who have been royally screwed by exactly this - they give you an API, devs everywhere come up with ideas, do the hard work - and the platform picks the low hanging fruit. Not only do they get carte blanche to steal peoples ideas but the licenses often give them complete rights to steal your source code as well.
- craigyk 13y ago
  Steal your source code? Examples please... maybe you mean steal designs? I won't argue that one.
- rmrfrmrf 13y ago
  A weather app is really a 3-hour project; a rudimentary exercise in retrieving and parsing some kind of structured data. To say that any part of this supposed app was "hard work" is disingenuous. Furthermore, the concept of photorealistic animations for weather isn't new, so really this person added nothing of value to the Apple ecosystem. And, wouldn't you know it, the App Store rejected this weather app for exactly that reason! That's not to say that there aren't instances where this has happened to devs, but I feel like your indignation is a bit wasted on an app this inconsequential.
  - general_failure 13y ago
    > A weather app is really a 3-hour project; Someone recommended that pg flash the HN title bar whenever such insightful comments are made. I would like to +1 that idea.

zobzu 13y ago

I think it'd be hard for me to call them out with much harsher words, if that happened to me. This stuff is as unfair as it gets, but then again, that's the norm today ain't it?

milesskorpen 13y ago

While I totally understand why you're angry, I'm almost certain Apple's app review team does NOT have access to pre-release versions of iOS, so this probably didn't happen because Apple was working on similar functionality.

quackerhacker 13y ago
I agree, while his posting is totally justified and I understand, I believe that their ui/ux dev teams are not apart of the app review processing.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
Zimahl 13y ago
I didn't get that he was hinting at that. The problem is what Apple thinks is significant to the platform when they develop it versus when it's an outside developer.
wilfra 13y ago
When Steve Jobs was around all the really great ideas probably found their way directly to him. If he then decided to call any of those ideas his own and reject the apps, do you think anybody at Apple would defy him? Whomever that person is now (Jony Ive?) probably got ahold of this app and did the same thing. Very easy to hide all of this under the veil of 'we were already working on something like that'. The author even acknowledges as much. So blatant theft is basically impossible to prove. But it's pretty naive to think that does not go on.
- blocking_io 13y ago
  I very much doubt the app reviewers have any better access to Apple executives than you or I. They are like call centre staff.
  - wilfra 13y ago
    That's why I said 'found their way'. It would just be a matter of training and infrastructure to make the process efficient. Example: an internal 'is this one of the coolest apps you have ever seen?' option given to all app reviewers. One guy whose job it is to review all apps where that box was checked. If he agrees, he sends them on to somebody on Jony Ives team. If they agree, they send it on to Jony.

revelation 13y ago

HTCs custom Sense UI had this all along (even on Windows Mobile, I think): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlTOI7ZUziQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlTOI7ZUziQ It's, uhh, not exactly novel.

alariccole 13y ago
That is a cloud graphic moving along an animated path. I'm talking about generated graphics--very different.
- baby 13y ago
  Still kind of the same idea. Nothing new.

joelrunyon 13y ago

Doesn't Haze already do this? http://gethaze.com/ http://gethaze.com/ Seems strange that they would let some animated weather apps through and not others...

austinl 13y ago

I think this got through too http://conditionsapp.com/ http://conditionsapp.com/

alariccole 13y ago
Lots of them got through!

thret 13y ago

Obligatory xkcd: http://xkcd.com/725/ http://xkcd.com/725/

205guy 13y ago
Indeed. At first, I thought the use of "literally" was hyperbole. Then it almost sounded like Apple had stolen his thunder graphic (in which case, it would've been an awesome title). But no, so back to hyperbole. I do feel for the OP, but given the number of other animated weather apps, I don't think he had any thunder to steal.
- Dylan16807 13y ago
  It's not hyperbole. Apple stole the place in the app store.

speeder 13y ago

I think the most weird part, is that I made a app exactly like that, but with cartoon instead of realistic, and it got approved on the first attempt. For those wondering, it is this one: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/weather-and-clock-for-kids/id596055030?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/weather-and-clock-for-kids/i... Granted, a bit more than a month ago, Apple rejected a update for it (because the message of it complaining of lack of GPS had a ok button that quit the APP), and it was really weird, because the thing they complained always existed on the app, and I on purpose proposed a terrible alternative, and they said they wanted THAT. So I DID made the terrible alternative on my point of view, and now the app uses that...

nemothekid 13y ago

The iOS 7 weather app looks like they just told Yahoo! to build the new app. Almost everything is the same down the typography, which isn't to say they stole it, seeing how iOS' weather is powered by Yahoo! That said, I'm not sure there are too many ways you can innovate a weather app. HTC Sense has been doing animated conditions for over 4 years now.

andrewmunsell 13y ago

Way back in 2010, I developed an app called World Weather Watch for WebOS: http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-apps-games/231824-introducing-world-weather-watch.html http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-apps-games/231824-introd... It had animations and an "overview" screen that had times, temperatures, and forecasts. Here's a couple of screenshots: http://us.appitalism.com/app/palm-webos/244623-world-weather-watch-time-weather/ http://us.appitalism.com/app/palm-webos/244623-world-weather... I also developed World Weather Watch for Mac OS X: http://www.andrewmunsell.com/work/world-weather-watch/ http://www.andrewmunsell.com/work/world-weather-watch/ (The animated weather concept was inspired by HTC's Sense UI, though as far as I can remember, the overview list was entirely my own concept and idea) So, the concept of animated weather, or even Apple's overview list of weather and times, goes back much farther than a couple of months. EDIT: If anyone's curious what World Weather Watch for WebOS looks like in motion, I made a video a while back too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3tS7n4VAsk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3tS7n4VAsk

dualogy 13y ago

This is why mobile apps just don't appeal to me -- the "approval" of what I create by any committee other than the actual-end-user marketplace. Having grown up sharing one's programs and work in a simple, radically open (if slightly risky for somewhat naive users) "download and install" or "install from floppy/CD" or "build from source" exploratory environment, I'd feel extremely foolish submitting my stuff for approval. I'd feel submissive. I don't want Apple's or Google's or Microsoft's or Facebook's permission to share software I make, only their users' choice for or against. Firefox OS is my only hope but in mobile, they'd also need to get some significant traction going fast. Chrome Apps are cool, Android is cool, but "Play Store" -- if it's just remotely as "submit for approval" as Apple, then thanks but no thanks. Thankfully, we still have web dev, mobile web, and a huge base of non-mobile "desktop-OS" software users.

mdwrigh2 13y ago
> Chrome Apps are cool, Android is cool, but "Play Store" -- if it's just remotely as "submit for approval" as Apple, then thanks but no thanks. It isn't. There's no approval process. Pay your developer registration fee and start putting apps in the store.

Stevens 13y ago

This article has the best headline ever.

smsm42 13y ago

That's what you get for submitting to the development model controlled by faceless bureaucracy invested with monopoly power. And now people are calling for government intervention there - because if you have a faceless bureaucracy with kafkian rules and rampant rumors of abuse, adding government to it always helps.

r00fus 13y ago
I agree to all but the government part. Government in this case is a set of rules, optionally with an enforcement body (e.g.: public utility commission) that puts fear into the provider. The only problem with the above is that it requires sane and non-corrupt legislators. Those are getting fewer by the election season in the US.
- smsm42 13y ago
  Putting fear into people is, of course, a worthy goal. But I'd prefer making situation better instead, and making one bureaucracy fear another... well, you can see how well it is working now. No way two layers of stupid, obtuse and possibly corrupt bureaucracy can be worse than one for the people having to deal with them, right? >>> The only problem with the above is that it requires sane and non-corrupt legislators. Yeah, there's a tiny-tiny problem with that... As soon as we solve it, everything else would be just peachy.

jussij 13y ago

It always makes me sigh when I read stories like this. For decades Microsoft was bashed for offering up a closed system, yet the reality was Microsoft would let you sell any type of software for Windows and they couldn't care less. Then along comes Apple with it's tightly closed, highly controlled platform and no one raises a murmur, but rather everyone seems to celebrate the idea. Watching on are the rest of the big players and they see how successful Apple has been, so they all start madly creating their own closed systems. The reality is none of these issues existed in the old style Windows system, but thanks to the success of Apple, those days are now gone :( Developers are now forever beholden to the big corporates.

hipsterdouche 13y ago
What you said made 100% sense. However, it goes against the core values of the iphone-ipad-ishit-toting cat-gif-downloading html-programming black-rim-glasses-sporting self-described-nerd social-hacking steve-jobs-worshipping nauseating douchebags that infect "hacker" news like a plague.
Fomite 13y ago
You have an interesting definition of "no one raises a murmur".
- harlanlewis 13y ago
  For true. People have made noise about this since before OS X 10.2 Sherlocked Watson.
- drivebyacct2 13y ago
  When even the people who ought to care - the techies that know better - buy into it, I think it's fair to characterize an overall sense of acceptance.
  - shinratdr 13y ago
    Which isn't anywhere close to "without a murmur". People bitched for literally YEARS before caving.

inselkampf 13y ago

I really doubt somehow that app reviews in Apple are cahoots with the internal app developers. Apple is too secretive for that.

rorrr2 13y ago

So did you learn your lesson? DON'T DEVELOP FOR APPLE. Considering how many horror stories we've seen, I wonder why anybody would waste their time developing apps for that weird company. Develop for open systems instead. They will win in the end.

mahyarm 13y ago
Cause apple users pay more, a lot more. It usually comes down to money in the end. The way to mitigate this risk is to create an MVP that you don't put a lot of work into. Then afterwards iterate and improve upon it.
parasubvert 13y ago
Apple, Microsoft, not to mention Oracle, IBM, CA, etc. are still making money hand over fist. They all make money by selling closed source systems that may or may not have open sub-systems. You have a curious definition of "win in the end".
- rorrr2 13y ago
  Microsoft OSes don't have any restrictions on what software to run. Apple does make money, but Android and Microsoft are eating their market share like mad. Apple was smart enough to invent a new market, but isn't smart enough to keep it.
  - xmodem 13y ago
    > Microsoft OSes don't have any restrictions on what software to run. They didn't until windows 8. The 'classic' desktop hasn't changed, but you can't run Modern UI apps other than from the app store, and on ARM you can't run anything that's not modern UI unless it's from Microsoft. Microsoft also has other OS platforms (Windows phone) with exactly the same model as Apple's, only less transparent.
  - rimantas 13y ago
    Check your numbers.

ChikkaChiChi 13y ago

it's not impossible that the Dev teams flag certain categories of apps shortly before launch dates to prevent similar applications from stealing their thunder so to speak. after all why get egg on their face when you violate the developer agreement retroactively?

ChikkaChiChi 13y ago

signed0 13y ago

Somewhat related, the BBC launched a new weather app for the iPhone (and Android) today. http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/appsblog/2013/jun/10/bbc-weather-app-iphone-android http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/appsblog/2013/jun/10/bbc-wea... Perhaps the requirements are somewhat relaxed for large entities.

jonheller 13y ago

Outside App (http://www.outsideapp.com/ http://www.outsideapp.com/) came out two years ago and did this. Not as nice, no question, but I think the guy's paranoia about the rejection is way off base. Though I do agree that there doesn't seem to be a good reason to reject it.

jdmaresco 13y ago

Is it possible that the app review teams were instructed to find a reason to reject all apps in a given category for a month or two leading up to the release of iOS7? Were other weather-related apps approved recently?

piyush_soni 13y ago

People still don't take a lesson from this. They have done exactly the same thing before. Apple is EVIL, understand that. May be one of the most evil tech company out there.

eridius 13y ago
Are you honestly calling Apple evil because they updated the built-in weather app to include realistic weather effects? That sure sets a low bar for what it means to be evil.
- piyush_soni 13y ago
  Really? That's what you understood from the whole article?

TheMagicHorsey 13y ago

Look, man, I feel really bad for you. But there are lots of open platforms to develop apps for. You make a choice when you decide to specialize in iOS apps. The choice you make is to make yourself a bitch to the arbitrary whims of some goofball asshole sitting in Cupertino, who doesn't give a fuck about your aspirations or vision. You can complain all you want, but they made the garden, and they can do whatever the fuck they want with it. It blows. But now you know why you need to support an open platform.

eropple 13y ago
> But there are lots of open platforms to develop apps for. No, there aren't, because a critical part of "platform to develop apps for" is a user base. Specifically, a user base willing to pay money for things. On mobile, that means iOS and to a much lesser extent Android and Windows Phone. "Develop for an open platform" is like telling somebody to grow a third leg. There are no relevant open platforms. Nor will there be, because consumers do not value openness and no other developers are going to damage themselves by only providing products on niche systems.
- TheMagicHorsey 13y ago
  The web is an open platform. Linux is an open platform. Android is an open platform in the sense that, if Google blocks you from the Play Store, people can still install your APK off the web.
  - eropple 13y ago
    Web applications intrinsically suck and aren't particularly viable unless your product fits the SaaS business model (I find that most things of value to me do not, personally) and unless you want to spend your life supporting SaaS (I like not getting pager alerts at 3AM). Linux has such a small userbase as to be essentially irrelevant. Platform fragmentation is a massive pain in the ass and its users are generally unwilling to spend money on software (video game addictions aside). Android has a userbase but they don't seem to really spend money, either; the overwhelmingly dominant revenue source for most cross-platform applications is iOS. And I say that as somebody who really likes Android and uses a Nexus 4 and Nexus 7 as daily devices. You can "develop for an open platform" and have shit-all for a potential ceiling or you can take the (generally minor) risk of developing for iOS and actually have a chance (if small) of making something that pays for itself. It's disingenous to tell developers "well, develop for an open platform" when doing so means you don't pay your rent.

hawkharris 13y ago

In response to Apple's initial response to the "Images" app: I'm amazed by the disconnect between how people really feel about porn and how they purport to feel about it. Sexual desire is a basic human need. The vast majority of American men and women view pornography, yet few acknowledge it. I appreciate that this is difficult to change because prudishness is deeply engrained in our culture, but I would like to see tech companies take a more progressive role in opening up a realistic dialogue about sex.

shabble 13y ago
It's a lot less risk for an organisation to appear prudish or paternal than to give their opponents a free attack ad about "corrupting our children/society". The weird rules (apps vs browsers) likely just fall out from the "censorship theater", in a parallel with airport security. It's an escape hatch, giving the organisation an "At least we tried!" defence.

ethanazir 13y ago

Have a great idea? submit it to us. If we like it we will pretend its our own.

pablasso 13y ago

I get his frustration, but I don't think an animated weather on a weather app is such an innovation that someone else couldn't think of.

ozten 13y ago
The OP made the point that it was a commodity app. He didn't claim earthshaking originality. He was proud of his superior execution and baffled at rejection.
- JasonSage 13y ago
  Thank you so much for pointing this out, apparently a lot of people missed this point. The topic of this discussion shouldn't be setting out to prove that the OP was not the first to bring this kind of app to the table, but rather how (un)justified it was to be rejected.

kschua 13y ago

I can empathize with you. Back in 2009, I created a call filtering app for Blackberry which had the ability to determine if a call is urgent based on the frequency of the incoming call and to block the call if it was not urgent. Guess what, in 2012, Apple put in an uncannily similar feature called "Repeated Call" in iOS 6

bredren 13y ago

They built some of your app concept into the core of the phone. They rejected your app because they were about to debut their version. It makes sense why they did it, and it was fair of them to do it. However, they should have let your app go into the app store. It is unlikely your app would have made techcrunch headlines or taken the world by storm (ha ha) but even if it had, Apple had nothing to fear. Which makes it strange that the company rejected it. They couldn't exactly say, "Sorry, but things in your app are going to be in a keynote. We're working on the same thing." Situations of an app being rejected by apple due to a forthcoming release are rare. (though I do know of another example by a prominent developer) Your story is a nice read, however your other experiences of rejection are not related to this one. They also speak to a different time for the app review team.

gridmaths 13y ago

Take the graphics, concept, UI and remake it as an HTML5 app. You could even increase sales using "..stole my thunder" as a meme :]

eridius 13y ago

"Months before"? If your weather app is only a few months old, then you are far from the first person to do what you're describing. I had an app on my iPad that provided exactly the experience you're describing, and that was I think at least 2 years old (I don't remember the name anymore).

mturmon 13y ago
Weather+ is somewhat like this. It uses HD video clips, not vector art, but it accomplishes a similar task. It has been around for a couple of years at least.
- eridius 13y ago
  It looks like the app I was thinking of is called Clear Day[1], but it was known as Weather HD back when I used it. [1]: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/clear-day-formerly-weather/id364193735?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/clear-day-formerly-weather/i...
  - alariccole 13y ago
    Yeah, completely different. That app simply used videos of locales.
OriginalAT 13y ago
That's only one small part of the story. I think the main thing here is that he had an app that he worked on that was rejected because Apple felt nobody wanted it, and then a few months later Apple releases pretty much the same thing itself and everyone loves it.
- alariccole 13y ago
  That's pretty much it.
- eridius 13y ago
  It's not that Apple felt nobody wanted a weather app, it's that there are a lot of weather apps on the store already. The App Store guidelines do tell you that apps that replicate existing functionality may be rejected. And Apple already had a weather app, all they did was update it to be better.

usaphp 13y ago

Can we see a working example of the app or at least screenshots? Because the execution of the concept can be bad and this is why apple rejected your app?

nleach 13y ago
He links to it in the comments: http://horizonapp.com http://horizonapp.com
- dirkgently 13y ago
  My eyes! No, not the app, but the very tall form factor of that device!

drawkbox 13y ago

This does suck, I wish it was a true free market. But it still is more open than say console markets or even Steam. I am not sure why they don't fully trust the market to produce and choose the apps. But in the end we are sharecroppers in a kingdom, they built the platform and have the last say. Diversify to other platforms (I am sure android or windows market would like to see this) but don't stop developing. Every once in a while they let you know with a rejection who's platform it is. In the future maybe it will be fully open, it is what drove Android markets in the early days. I am still surprised one of the competing markets hasn't been more open or taken less than 30%. They just line up behind Apple following suit. Personally from a game developer perspective, Apple is the most open viable market that has been created for game developers and remade handheld gaming. From a web developer perspective it is more closed.

alexobenauer 13y ago

To be fair, the app review team is not the iOS development team, and they are not informed about the developments from the iOS team.

k-mcgrady 13y ago

I highly doubt that app reviewers had information on what was coming in iOS 7 and to bias reviews based on that.

coin 13y ago

Yet another site that disables pinch zoom on iOS. He develops iOS apps yet makes his webpage hostile to iOS browsing.

dirkgently 13y ago
I am not sure, but doesn't Apple allow more than one browsers in their walled garden?

desireco42 13y ago

Who cares, you didn't have to develop for their closed system. You could make apps for macs that can be downloaded if you care so much about programming for macs. Honestly, who cares. Also, whatever happens once, doesn't have to happen ever again, but if it happens twice, it will almost certainly happen again. You will get burned over and over, unless you get smart.

robterrell 13y ago

As a developer of a weather app myself, I seriously doubt that Apple refused your app due to its use of video clips & the possibility of its competing with iOS 7's weather app. Yahoo weather exists, after all, and it's really close in look & feel.

gboudrias 13y ago

Why in the hell do people still develop for Apple? It seems like an uphill battle...

ccera 13y ago

Apple's app store review "process" is complete bullshit, but this kind of weather app already exists for iOS and Android, and has for a couple years or more. I've installed probably 4 or 5 of them between the two platforms, all with beautiful high-def animations, etc. (and uninstalled all of them, since I find the simpler WeatherBug to be more than adequate for me).

nleach 13y ago

Sad story, but I think it's being blown out of scale. In the comments on his post, he linked to the app's teaser site: http://www.horizonapp.com http://www.horizonapp.com I really don't see how this app could "confidently" stand up to the new Weather.app

paul_f 13y ago

Your app probably sucked and Apple had to pick some reason to deny it. Any excuse will do, no?

thisisomebs 13y ago

How the hell are you guys viewing this site? I get a "sign in to collaborate" bullshit.

dirkgently 13y ago

So from most of the defensive arguments here is in the form of classic... "well, that sucks... but... Apple must have a reason, so it's okay?". Really? On a site full of tech geeks and nerds? When did majority of us lose our balls and become so meek?

rohamg 13y ago

but.. this isn't anywhere near a new idea.. Weather HD, now Clear Day, is by a team in Egypt and has been doing the animated weather thing for years: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/clear-day-formerly-weather/id364193735?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/clear-day-formerly-weather/i...

inkaudio 13y ago

Perhaps not, Solar app: http://thisissolar.com http://thisissolar.com has very similar effects. It was not rejected and it is still in the app store. Off course it does not have the full marketing of Apple behind it, but still.

hnriot 13y ago

I agree with apple, the world doesn't need another weather app that does nothing more than animate clouds and snow etc. the apple weather app that we all saw today is a world clock, has pinch to summary, a ton of more useful info and was layered both in visual appearance and functionality. By comparison your weather app was highly simplistic and looks like someone concocted in a weekend without being finished. I don't mean to sound harsh, but I wouldn't have given your weather app another look when you put it up against apple's new one one or yahoo's existing one. If anyone should be whining it should be yahoo, they even have the layers idea going on where the scroll panes slide at slightly different speeds. Very much like Apple's accelerometer driven panes.

par128 13y ago

Our weather app YoWindow features computer generated sky just like ios 7 app. Despite of this it was approved by Apple 2 months ago. https://itunes.apple.com/app/id606193225 https://itunes.apple.com/app/id606193225 Quick link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtD2VosqX3Y http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtD2VosqX3Y Alaric, I know it's depressing to see that you idea is copied. But I think in this case Apple didn't sole. Be brave and move on. Eventually you win. Just a bad luck.

dba7dba 13y ago

"I developed a weather app a few months ago which was also rejected." Alaric tries to believe that the rejection of his app wasn't because of the ios7 but considering how long ios7 was under development, I'm pretty sure they rejected it because of its similarity to ios7's weather app. Pretty sure Apple wouldn't want some indie developer to upstage the awesome devs/designers of Apple.

general_failure 13y ago

Most developers are there to make a living. Expecting ideals from them is a little too much. They probably have ideals in others spheres of life. I wouldn't expect most devs to just follow the money and continue writing iOS apps until it gives them good returns.

kenneth_reitz 13y ago

I’m glad I’m not alone! I made a very very similar that did nothing but show you images of things you searched for. Apple disabled my account one day, without explaining why to me. Today, they owe me $17,000. I contact them every few months, and never hear anything back but silence.

dave1010uk 13y ago

Come join us on the Open Web. It's actually really good now. There may be restrictions and difficulties but no one will stop you getting your hard work out there.

venomsnake 13y ago

I do hope that with PRISM revelations the walled garden system may be on its way to reforms. If enough people wake up to the topic how important device and software control is for the owner there will be pure market pressure and current Apple kinda lack the salesman Steve that is able to override privacy concerns in the public. Also we should have good streamlined legal process to declare software platforms "common carriers" when they are above certain size or market share with all the benefits and responsibilities that come from that. And lets hope cases like that will be greatly reduced.

alexscheelmeyer 13y ago

Given the sometimes arbitrary nature of these rejections, it would seem that a natural strategy would be to keep trying (with changes to meet their expectations) - at some point you should get it approved. Is there some maximum tries that one get to show ones worth as a pubilsher?

grey-area 13y ago

This is why the web will win. Not the web of FaceBook and twitter APIs, but the open web of documents and apps interacting without restrictions. There is a fundamental lack of control and instability in building on a platform owned by a corporation, be that on the web or mobile development.

sharninder 13y ago

I know there is no end to this discussion so I'll just put in my 2cents and GTFO. As a user of Windows systems in the 90s, the so called "openness" was precisely the reason I moved to using Linux. Most software available for Windows, in those days was crap, and I as a user needed something that worked, not mostly but, all the time. Linux gave me that. Even if there was just one office suite (star office, remember?), it worked. After using Linux for about a decade or so, I moved to OS X, since Linux wasn't really going anywhere. The fabled desktop linux wasn't coming and everything seemed in a limbo. OS X and Apple, for all it's faults, works, for the most part, for the user and that's why the platform is popular. We guys here are talking and thinking with our developer hats, but users think very differently.

crimsongene 13y ago

Ofcourse the have to do that now.. short of ideas they are!

Jleagle 13y ago

I hear these stories every month, just make your apps for a different OS if Apple don't want your business.

notlisted 13y ago

I'm sorry, but the app you seem to describe has existed for quite a while. Actually, there are several of them. I installed them on my first iPad (the original) way back when. This is one of them: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/weather-live/id464770748?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/weather-live/id464770748?mt=...

trendspotter 13y ago

There must have been other reasons why his animated weather app was rejected by Apple. There are already very flashy iOS weather apps, just take for example a look at "Clear Day".