9 ms·

Hacker Who Helped Expose Steubenville Could Get More Prison Time Than Rapists

287 points by soleimc 13y ago

Jabbles 13y ago
An informative read if you're curious about US sentencing: http://www.popehat.com/2013/02/05/crime-whale-sushi-sentence-eleventy-million-years&#x2F http://www.popehat.com/2013/02/05/crime-whale-sushi-sentence...; excerpt: "People reporting on federal criminal justice — whether journalists or bloggers — routinely report on the statutory maximum sentence that a defendant could hypothetically get, an oft-ridiculous figure calculated by taking all the charged crimes and adding up the maximum punishment for each. This is usually followed by some sort of pronouncement that THIS PERSON CHARGED OF MINOR CRIMES FACES MORE JAIL TIME THAN YOU'D GET IF YOU BEAT A TODDLER TO DEATH WITH AN UNCONSCIOUS NUN WHILE RAPING A BLIND LIBRARIAN, or words to that effect."
- TallGuyShort 13y ago
  While that certainly means such stories aren't as serious as they sound, it's still indicative of a pretty messed up sentencing system. Thank you for the link.
- tibbon 13y ago
  Seems to be a strange thing though in our justice system- that seemingly more minor crimes have greater maximum sentences (and sometimes mandatory minimums) than more violent/harmful crimes. I know it isn't just something we can 'fix' easily, but it does seem to be a bug in the system essentially.
  - VladRussian2 13y ago
    there are crimes against the System and crimes against another person(s). Through the history of the human race the former were punished harder than the latter. Jesus for example. There is a joke in Russia about a person buying a fake money printing device. After discovering that the device itself is a fake (it was loaded with a bit of real money for demo purposes during sale), the buyer reports the fraud to the authorities. As result the seller gets relatively small time for the fraud he committed against the buyer and the buyer gets much bigger time because he tried to commit fraud (ie. intended to print fake money) against the government.
- mjn 13y ago
  It's not just "journalists or bloggers" who do that; the government will often quote the maximum possible when discussing the case as well, in order to intimidate the defendant into a plea bargain.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    The government at least mentions that it's a maximum sentence. There's no other specific number they can quote anyways, it's not like they know what the judge and jury might approve that far ahead of time.
    - jessaustin 13y ago
      A more ethical group of prosecutors than we have (recruited, perhaps, among the sea pirates, slave traders, and drug kingpins of the world?), wouldn't make speculative statements about sentencing at all, much less to the media.
      - mpyne 13y ago
        Because obviously allowing the media to make speculative statements with are completely unfounded is much better than at least tempering with fact. OK.
        jessaustin 13y ago
        "Facts" don't miraculously appear out of prosecutors' asses. Prosecutors are not uninterested parties in trials, and if you really cared about the veracity of media reports you would encourage the media to do its own reporting rather than lap up press releases.
  - lawnchair_larry 13y ago
    Yep, which is why it's appropriate to quote the same figures when criticizing the bad behavior of the prosecution. Even if they won't get the maximum, the number is still significant, because it serves as the anchor for extorting a plea bargain, as well as sentencing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring
mratzloff 13y ago
Here's a summary: A girl in a high school football-obsessed small town went to a party and was assaulted by football players who later bragged about it on Twitter. A blogger saw the posts (later deleted) and took screenshots. She tried to get justice for the victim by re-posting these on her blog. For this she was hounded relentlessly in the town and a defamation suit was brought against her. The players bragged that the coach knew about the accusations and would make them go away. Two of the football players were later given 1 and 2 year sentences in juvenile detention, largely due to the efforts by people who got involved in bringing this case to a wider audience. As for the hacker... I've read the linked article, another article, the accused's webpage, and an article by the blogger who stood up for the rape victim, and I still can't figure out exactly what role, if any, this guy had in this mess.
- Esifer 13y ago
  He (hacker) published pictures first and made video that was on FB page, but other Anon hacked page. Here is full story with screenshots and video: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/05/anonymous-rape-steubenville-rehtaeh-parsons-oprollredroll-opjustice4rehtaeh http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/05/anonymous-rape-s...
- SwellJoe 13y ago
  "was assaulted by" was raped by FTFY. Let's not mince words here. This was not merely assault (which can describe something as mild as a punch or a shove). This was rape, committed by multiple parties, followed by degradation on camera for others to see. And, the girl was so drunk/drugged that she probably should have been seen by a doctor...instead the people around her took it as an opportunity to prey upon her.
  - mratzloff 13y ago
    I meant "sexually assaulted", not simply "assaulted". I didn't omit the word as part of some pro-rape agenda. Anyway, I can't edit it now, unfortunately. Sexual assault generally means "unwanted penetration" (legally), which includes whatever happened here (unclear exactly from the articles I read).
forgotAgain 13y ago
The original Mother Jones story is here: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/kyanonymous-fbi-steubenville-raid-anonymous http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/kyanonymous-fbi-... At first, he thought the FBI agent at the door was with FedEx. "As I open the door to greet the driver, approximately 12 FBI SWAT team agents jumped out of the truck, screaming for me to 'Get the fuck down!' with M-16 assault rifles and full riot gear, armed, safety off, pointed directly at my head," Lostutter wrote today on his blog. "I was handcuffed and detained outside while they cleared my house.
- imdsm 13y ago
  I can understand this approach to a drug baron or armed fugitive, but to a hacker? Really 'merica? Way to go killing that fly with a sledge hammer!
  - gyardley 13y ago
    While you never know who's armed and who's not, in these cases they're probably just as worried about the destruction of evidence - a polite knock on the door and an 'excuse me, sir, we're the FBI' might give him time to erase or destroy something.
    - icebraining 13y ago
      Is there no middle ground?
      - vampirechicken 13y ago
        If they don't use the gear, they can't justify it.
      - damoncali 13y ago
        While I'm no cop and such actions are concerning to me - let me play devil's advocate. If you have to train a group of men to apprehend a wide variety of suspects/fugitives/badguys in a manner that is fast, effective, and as safe as possible, it makes sense that you keep the procedures, tactics, and equipment used consistent. After all, pointing an M16 at someone wont hurt them any more than pointing a .38 special at them, but it's a hell of a lot less tempting to run/fight back against an overwhelming force. That they seem heavy handed in this case is just a result of it being on the edge of the range they need to cover.
danso 13y ago
OK, this sounds pedantic, but "Convicted for Longer"* is not accurate...you're not convicted for a period of time, you're convicted and then sentenced to a period of jail time, or probation. And of course, as we all know from the Aaron Swartz coverage, "could serve for as long as..." is different than "actually serve a sentence of [xy] ears". But the most relevant quibble is this: a father who beats these rapists with his fists would also face a longer sentence than these accused rapists (who, according to the OP, faced 1-2 years)...because these convicted offenders were juveniles. And as much as we want to celebrate extra-judicial vengenance upon convicts, juvenile or not, I think we should be aware that there may be unpleasant consequences when our justice/political system looks the other way upon unlawful actions in which "the ends justified the means". ...because, I mean, isn't that at the core of the NSA controversy that is currently raging in the the other 20 HN threads? * edit: the original title for this submission was "Hacker...Could Be Convicted for Longer..."
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  I think we should be aware that there may be unpleasant consequences... Or as I like to put it, something about having your cake and eating it. We can't demand the administration turn a blind eye here, and rage at that same administration when they turn a blind eye there.
  - Houshalter 13y ago
    No one is asking to turn a blind eye, but a ten year sentence is absurd. If they actually get it that is.
- tomjen3 13y ago
  Not only is it pedantic, you are a terrible human for wanting to lock a father who beats up a rapist for longer than the rapist. These men were old enough to rape, they should be old enough to do the time and if your excuse was that they were juveniles, then just remember that they could (and should have been) charged as adults. Alas the bastards weren't, but that is prosecutal misconduct, not justice.
codezero 13y ago
I imagine that he faces charges, not specifically for crimes committed to out the rapists, but possibly for a number of other illegal activities related to hacking. That one of his deeds ended up resulting in outing bad people, does not mean that he is always so conscious or on the side of good.
- sillysaurus 13y ago
  Unless more information comes to light, you're just slandering the guy. The assumption at this point is that he was arrested at multiple M16 assault rifle gunpoints because of his involvement in hacking into Jim Parks's fansite. http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/01/inside-anonymous-hacking-file-steubenville-rape-crew/60502&#x2F http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/01/inside-anony...;
  - jcromartie 13y ago
    Because he starred in the video which someone else already admitted to posting.
  - codezero 13y ago
    It's not slander to assume that the law enforcement agency that raided him was acting on credible intelligence of illegal activity. They may be wrong, but I don't see how this is slander. I've made no specific accusations and if you are saying he's implicated in hacking a web site (the link you provided is dead) then that seems to corroborate my assumption.
detcader 13y ago
Kill Aaron, put kids in prison for dDOSing... but for god sakes, don't ever try to send a message to potential rapists! That would be oppressing men everywhere!
rosser 13y ago
This is one of the most reprehensible things I've heard in I don't even know how long.
- Ygg2 13y ago
  Like since Aaron Schwartz or that other hacker that was convicted for a ludicrous sentence.
gmu3 13y ago
I feel like it is a little unfair comparing the number of years someone is sentenced and going to jail for and the number of years someone could go to jail for if they are found guilty and receive the max sentence. (Perhaps people don't think the hacker did anything that should be considered a crime worthy of a sentence that long, but that's a totally different argument)
- gknoy 13y ago
  I don't think it is. Humans tend to instinctively "compromise" to a middle position. If you were to say, "this hacker must get between 2 and 40 years", you're much more likely (if I recall right?) to end up with them getting much more than the minimum.
- fatman 13y ago
  Well, there's always the federal sentencing guidlines - they would provide a little insight into what he's really facing. Also, the rape charges were state (juvenile) charges, not federal. The federales don't mess around.
ScottBurson 13y ago
Direct link to defense fund donation page: https://www.wepay.com/donations/deric-lostutter--ky-anonymous-defense-fund https://www.wepay.com/donations/deric-lostutter--ky-anonymou...
rusbra 13y ago
wow... its a shame somebody bringing darkness to light gets charged. America the beautiful.
rusbra 13y ago
wow... its a shame somebody bringing darkness to light gets charged. America the beautiful.
daned 13y ago
What are they alleging he did?
yekko 13y ago
Priorities, our masters sure got them.
pfortuny 13y ago
You know: the rule of law is more important than a lot of things (especially if these are done by minors). I have not understood what the 'hacker' did but IF it were trying to overstep due process, I would understand a very painful sentence. The constitution is all about that: freedom and how the State handles the issues. Due process cannot be subverted without punishment even though doing so may have 'good consequences': the classical problem of the ends and the means.
cLeEOGPw 13y ago
It is actually very logical that hackers are sentenced for much higher than violent criminals, because a hacker is a potential threat to the government stability (in case he exposes secret data about the activities of the government), while all violent criminal does is damages one or few people property and/or health. In the sense of computer system, a violent criminal is some incorrect input, while a hacker is a bug in the system.

287 points by soleimc 13y ago

An informative read if you're curious about US sentencing: http://www.popehat.com/2013/02/05/crime-whale-sushi-sentence-eleventy-million-years&#x2F http://www.popehat.com/2013/02/05/crime-whale-sushi-sentence...; excerpt: "People reporting on federal criminal justice — whether journalists or bloggers — routinely report on the statutory maximum sentence that a defendant could hypothetically get, an oft-ridiculous figure calculated by taking all the charged crimes and adding up the maximum punishment for each. This is usually followed by some sort of pronouncement that THIS PERSON CHARGED OF MINOR CRIMES FACES MORE JAIL TIME THAN YOU'D GET IF YOU BEAT A TODDLER TO DEATH WITH AN UNCONSCIOUS NUN WHILE RAPING A BLIND LIBRARIAN, or words to that effect."

TallGuyShort 13y ago
While that certainly means such stories aren't as serious as they sound, it's still indicative of a pretty messed up sentencing system. Thank you for the link.
tibbon 13y ago
Seems to be a strange thing though in our justice system- that seemingly more minor crimes have greater maximum sentences (and sometimes mandatory minimums) than more violent/harmful crimes. I know it isn't just something we can 'fix' easily, but it does seem to be a bug in the system essentially.
- VladRussian2 13y ago
  there are crimes against the System and crimes against another person(s). Through the history of the human race the former were punished harder than the latter. Jesus for example. There is a joke in Russia about a person buying a fake money printing device. After discovering that the device itself is a fake (it was loaded with a bit of real money for demo purposes during sale), the buyer reports the fraud to the authorities. As result the seller gets relatively small time for the fraud he committed against the buyer and the buyer gets much bigger time because he tried to commit fraud (ie. intended to print fake money) against the government.
mjn 13y ago
It's not just "journalists or bloggers" who do that; the government will often quote the maximum possible when discussing the case as well, in order to intimidate the defendant into a plea bargain.
- mpyne 13y ago
  The government at least mentions that it's a maximum sentence. There's no other specific number they can quote anyways, it's not like they know what the judge and jury might approve that far ahead of time.
  - jessaustin 13y ago
    A more ethical group of prosecutors than we have (recruited, perhaps, among the sea pirates, slave traders, and drug kingpins of the world?), wouldn't make speculative statements about sentencing at all, much less to the media.
    - mpyne 13y ago
      Because obviously allowing the media to make speculative statements with are completely unfounded is much better than at least tempering with fact. OK.
      - jessaustin 13y ago
        "Facts" don't miraculously appear out of prosecutors' asses. Prosecutors are not uninterested parties in trials, and if you really cared about the veracity of media reports you would encourage the media to do its own reporting rather than lap up press releases.
- lawnchair_larry 13y ago
  Yep, which is why it's appropriate to quote the same figures when criticizing the bad behavior of the prosecution. Even if they won't get the maximum, the number is still significant, because it serves as the anchor for extorting a plea bargain, as well as sentencing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring

mratzloff 13y ago

Here's a summary: A girl in a high school football-obsessed small town went to a party and was assaulted by football players who later bragged about it on Twitter. A blogger saw the posts (later deleted) and took screenshots. She tried to get justice for the victim by re-posting these on her blog. For this she was hounded relentlessly in the town and a defamation suit was brought against her. The players bragged that the coach knew about the accusations and would make them go away. Two of the football players were later given 1 and 2 year sentences in juvenile detention, largely due to the efforts by people who got involved in bringing this case to a wider audience. As for the hacker... I've read the linked article, another article, the accused's webpage, and an article by the blogger who stood up for the rape victim, and I still can't figure out exactly what role, if any, this guy had in this mess.

Esifer 13y ago
He (hacker) published pictures first and made video that was on FB page, but other Anon hacked page. Here is full story with screenshots and video: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/05/anonymous-rape-steubenville-rehtaeh-parsons-oprollredroll-opjustice4rehtaeh http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/05/anonymous-rape-s...
SwellJoe 13y ago
"was assaulted by" was raped by FTFY. Let's not mince words here. This was not merely assault (which can describe something as mild as a punch or a shove). This was rape, committed by multiple parties, followed by degradation on camera for others to see. And, the girl was so drunk/drugged that she probably should have been seen by a doctor...instead the people around her took it as an opportunity to prey upon her.
- mratzloff 13y ago
  I meant "sexually assaulted", not simply "assaulted". I didn't omit the word as part of some pro-rape agenda. Anyway, I can't edit it now, unfortunately. Sexual assault generally means "unwanted penetration" (legally), which includes whatever happened here (unclear exactly from the articles I read).

forgotAgain 13y ago

The original Mother Jones story is here: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/kyanonymous-fbi-steubenville-raid-anonymous http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/kyanonymous-fbi-... At first, he thought the FBI agent at the door was with FedEx. "As I open the door to greet the driver, approximately 12 FBI SWAT team agents jumped out of the truck, screaming for me to 'Get the fuck down!' with M-16 assault rifles and full riot gear, armed, safety off, pointed directly at my head," Lostutter wrote today on his blog. "I was handcuffed and detained outside while they cleared my house.

imdsm 13y ago
I can understand this approach to a drug baron or armed fugitive, but to a hacker? Really 'merica? Way to go killing that fly with a sledge hammer!
- gyardley 13y ago
  While you never know who's armed and who's not, in these cases they're probably just as worried about the destruction of evidence - a polite knock on the door and an 'excuse me, sir, we're the FBI' might give him time to erase or destroy something.
  - icebraining 13y ago
    Is there no middle ground?
    - vampirechicken 13y ago
      If they don't use the gear, they can't justify it.
    - damoncali 13y ago
      While I'm no cop and such actions are concerning to me - let me play devil's advocate. If you have to train a group of men to apprehend a wide variety of suspects/fugitives/badguys in a manner that is fast, effective, and as safe as possible, it makes sense that you keep the procedures, tactics, and equipment used consistent. After all, pointing an M16 at someone wont hurt them any more than pointing a .38 special at them, but it's a hell of a lot less tempting to run/fight back against an overwhelming force. That they seem heavy handed in this case is just a result of it being on the edge of the range they need to cover.

danso 13y ago

OK, this sounds pedantic, but "Convicted for Longer"* is not accurate...you're not convicted for a period of time, you're convicted and then sentenced to a period of jail time, or probation. And of course, as we all know from the Aaron Swartz coverage, "could serve for as long as..." is different than "actually serve a sentence of [xy] ears". But the most relevant quibble is this: a father who beats these rapists with his fists would also face a longer sentence than these accused rapists (who, according to the OP, faced 1-2 years)...because these convicted offenders were juveniles. And as much as we want to celebrate extra-judicial vengenance upon convicts, juvenile or not, I think we should be aware that there may be unpleasant consequences when our justice/political system looks the other way upon unlawful actions in which "the ends justified the means". ...because, I mean, isn't that at the core of the NSA controversy that is currently raging in the the other 20 HN threads? * edit: the original title for this submission was "Hacker...Could Be Convicted for Longer..."

sliverstorm 13y ago
I think we should be aware that there may be unpleasant consequences... Or as I like to put it, something about having your cake and eating it. We can't demand the administration turn a blind eye here, and rage at that same administration when they turn a blind eye there.
- Houshalter 13y ago
  No one is asking to turn a blind eye, but a ten year sentence is absurd. If they actually get it that is.
tomjen3 13y ago
Not only is it pedantic, you are a terrible human for wanting to lock a father who beats up a rapist for longer than the rapist. These men were old enough to rape, they should be old enough to do the time and if your excuse was that they were juveniles, then just remember that they could (and should have been) charged as adults. Alas the bastards weren't, but that is prosecutal misconduct, not justice.

codezero 13y ago

I imagine that he faces charges, not specifically for crimes committed to out the rapists, but possibly for a number of other illegal activities related to hacking. That one of his deeds ended up resulting in outing bad people, does not mean that he is always so conscious or on the side of good.

sillysaurus 13y ago
Unless more information comes to light, you're just slandering the guy. The assumption at this point is that he was arrested at multiple M16 assault rifle gunpoints because of his involvement in hacking into Jim Parks's fansite. http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/01/inside-anonymous-hacking-file-steubenville-rape-crew/60502&#x2F http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/01/inside-anony...;
- jcromartie 13y ago
  Because he starred in the video which someone else already admitted to posting.
- codezero 13y ago
  It's not slander to assume that the law enforcement agency that raided him was acting on credible intelligence of illegal activity. They may be wrong, but I don't see how this is slander. I've made no specific accusations and if you are saying he's implicated in hacking a web site (the link you provided is dead) then that seems to corroborate my assumption.

detcader 13y ago

Kill Aaron, put kids in prison for dDOSing... but for god sakes, don't ever try to send a message to potential rapists! That would be oppressing men everywhere!

rosser 13y ago

This is one of the most reprehensible things I've heard in I don't even know how long.

Ygg2 13y ago
Like since Aaron Schwartz or that other hacker that was convicted for a ludicrous sentence.

gmu3 13y ago

I feel like it is a little unfair comparing the number of years someone is sentenced and going to jail for and the number of years someone could go to jail for if they are found guilty and receive the max sentence. (Perhaps people don't think the hacker did anything that should be considered a crime worthy of a sentence that long, but that's a totally different argument)

gknoy 13y ago
I don't think it is. Humans tend to instinctively "compromise" to a middle position. If you were to say, "this hacker must get between 2 and 40 years", you're much more likely (if I recall right?) to end up with them getting much more than the minimum.
fatman 13y ago
Well, there's always the federal sentencing guidlines - they would provide a little insight into what he's really facing. Also, the rape charges were state (juvenile) charges, not federal. The federales don't mess around.

ScottBurson 13y ago

Direct link to defense fund donation page: https://www.wepay.com/donations/deric-lostutter--ky-anonymous-defense-fund https://www.wepay.com/donations/deric-lostutter--ky-anonymou...

rusbra 13y ago

wow... its a shame somebody bringing darkness to light gets charged. America the beautiful.

rusbra 13y ago

wow... its a shame somebody bringing darkness to light gets charged. America the beautiful.

daned 13y ago

What are they alleging he did?

yekko 13y ago

Priorities, our masters sure got them.

pfortuny 13y ago

You know: the rule of law is more important than a lot of things (especially if these are done by minors). I have not understood what the 'hacker' did but IF it were trying to overstep due process, I would understand a very painful sentence. The constitution is all about that: freedom and how the State handles the issues. Due process cannot be subverted without punishment even though doing so may have 'good consequences': the classical problem of the ends and the means.

cLeEOGPw 13y ago

It is actually very logical that hackers are sentenced for much higher than violent criminals, because a hacker is a potential threat to the government stability (in case he exposes secret data about the activities of the government), while all violent criminal does is damages one or few people property and/or health. In the sense of computer system, a violent criminal is some incorrect input, while a hacker is a bug in the system.