8 ms·

This article seems suspect in its sensationalism, not for the facts presented, but for the ones not addressed. Greek yogurt is widely eaten in lots of countries

This article seems suspect in its sensationalism, not for the facts presented, but for the ones not addressed. Greek yogurt is widely eaten in lots of countries (called labneh most of the middle east). If we were to address this seriously we would have to ask: What do they do with the strained byproduct? The article doesn't seem to give any thought to the countries that already consume a lot of labneh. My (Lebanese) grandmother used to make it by hanging a cloth above the sink, so her solution was merely down the drain. edit: Woah! Sorry, I don't mean to imply that it isn't a problem. I mean to imply that many other countries may consume as much per capita as the US, but if lots of it is home-made, the waste problem might not be as visible, even if it is just as real. ~~~~ > one expert calls a “dead sea,” The proper term for oxygen-deprived waters is actually "dead zone", to reduce confusion with the (merely very saline) Dead Sea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_zone_(ecology) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_zone_(ecology) ~~~~ I found a paper that I think is much more interesting than the posted article: Utilization of Labneh Whey Lactose Hydrolyzed Syrup in Baking and Confectionery, from the Pakistan Journal of Nutrition http://www.pjbs.org/pjnonline/fin2285.pdf http://www.pjbs.org/pjnonline/fin2285.pdf

dxbydt 13y ago
>so her solution was merely down the drain. Suppose greek yogurt hadn't taken off in the US & remained a niche product for some health-freaks, then Dannon & Chobani would also throw it down the drain & we'd be none the wiser. The product has taken off in a way no one imagined. At the supermarkets, I see not just athletes but positively obese masses loading up on greek yogurt in some mistaken belief that it can compensate for their other excesses with soda pop & candy. Greek yogurt sells out even after they price it at $6! Clearly, we need an industrial solution to get rid of the byproduct, if we are going to manufacture the damn thing on an industrial scale.
- jerrya 13y ago
  But remember that much of US Greek Yogurt is Greek Yogurt + SUGAR + JAM + FRUIT = Candy.
  - nhebb 13y ago
    I'm glad you brought that up. Sweetened yogurt is one of the worst pseudo health foods on the market. Chobani's strawberry has 20 gm of sugar (4.76 tsp), and Yoplait is worse at 33 gm (7.86 tsp). That's a butt-load of sugar for such a small container.
    - lawnchair_larry 13y ago
      That's an odd way to count. So fruits are bad pseudo health foods too? 8oz of pure, fresh squeezed orange juice has 22 grams of sugar. It wouldn't make sense to say that is "~5 tsp of sugar".
      - xyzzyz 13y ago
        fruit juice is indeed not very healthy, because of its enormous sugar content. you'd probably never eat for a single meal the number of oranges that go into a single orange juice glass.
      - itsybitsycoder 13y ago
        Fruit juice is not the best example of a health food. There's as much sugar in most fruit juices than there is in an equal volume of Coke [1]. When we were kids, my brother had to get caps put on all his teeth because he drank too much apple juice, and even though we brushed 2x a day, the sugar rotted his teeth. Plain fruit is better because it has more fiber and about half the sugar in a serving than the juice [2]. [1] http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-204_162-673229.html http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-204_162-673229.html [2] http://healthland.time.com/2009/08/07/calorie-counter-fruit-vs-fruit-juice/ http://healthland.time.com/2009/08/07/calorie-counter-fruit-...
      - nhebb 13y ago
        As Dr. Lustig (the "sugar is poison" guy) says, when nature delivers a poison it often provides the antidote. For fruits, the antidote is fiber. Juice removes much of that fiber. My grandmother had a seizure and was rushed to the hospital. I happened to be in the area and went to see her. When I got there, she was conscious but catatonic. I said hello to her, but she stared straight ahead, unresponsive. Her blood sugar had dropped really low, so the nurse brought in a cup of orange juice. She drank about half of it - maybe 4 oz. The nurse put the cup down, and a few seconds later my grandmother turned, looked at me, and said, "Hi Nick, what are you doing here?" I'm not trying to exaggerate, but it was like someone flipped a switch. I was amazed at how fast the sugar absorbed into her bloodstream. So I guess the point of my story is that you shouldn't underestimate the power of the sugar in an 8 oz. glass of orange juice.
- rmrfrmrf 13y ago
  > some mistaken belief that it can compensate for their other excesses with soda pop & candy I had no idea that the obesity epidemic could be solved by taking away soda pop and candy! Surely some nutritionist here is wondering, "why didn't I think of that?!"
  - freehunter 13y ago
    Every nutritionist in the world suggests not consuming soda and candy. The problem is people don't listen.
mbreese 13y ago
I think that it's all a question of scale. The amount of whey produced by your grandmother is exponentially less than that produced by Chobani or Dannon. So, while she could just pour it down the drain, at industrial scale, that just isn't possible. But, you do bring up a good point - what does the rest of the world do with their excess acidic whey? Is it produced anywhere else in the world at industrial scales?
guyzero 13y ago
Your Lebanese grandmother did not pour a few million gallons down the drain.
- lotsofcows 13y ago
  No, but a few million Lebanese grandmothers did. Which seems like too low a number...
rayiner 13y ago
> My (Lebanese) grandmother used to make it by hanging a cloth above the sink, so her solution was merely down the drain. Which is exactly what companies would do, on an industrial scale, if it weren't illegal. But in a sense what your grandmother does is wrong. Even if we assume that there is no inherent value to healthy oceans and rivers, it robs, in nickles and dimes, fisherman whose catches are affected by the acid in household wastewater. Your grandmother saves a few cents on proper disposal while costing other people a few cents to deal with the problem she created.
- derleth 13y ago
  And if you still Kant see how this would be a bad thing, look up the Categorical Imperative sometime: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative
  - millstone 13y ago
    Do you mean to argue that the laws that govern industrial food safety and waste disposal ought also to apply to homemade food? (I hope not, since I've been known to grill and eat a medium-rare burger!) It's reasonable to hold large commercial operations to stricter standards. I doubt that any homemade byproducts are disposed of "properly," but the impact of homemade Greek yogurt must be a tiny fraction of the commercial impact, and I don't think anyone is prepared to regulate what individuals do with milk after they buy it.
    - graycat 13y ago
      > waste disposal In my case, it's easy: All the 'stuff' from the kitchen or bathrooms flows through big, white plastic pipes to a concrete tank buried in my back yard. Out of the tank are some tube, tile, rock or whatever ways for the water to flow. Done. I never see the stuff again. The water from the tank adds water and plant nutrients to my backyard. It's all the courtesy of some wonderful 'bugs': Once I had a sore on my foot, applied some Wal-Mart triple antibiotic cream, washed my socks, and a few days later way in the back of my backyard saw 'stuff' bubbling up, stuff I didn't want to see again! Sure: That Wal-Mart stuff was POWERFUL and sterilized my septic tank! Solution? Sure: There's a box, Rid-X or some such, can buy at the grocery store. The box has some dry beads with no odor. So, flush the beads and, presto, the septic tank is working again. For milk, I've poured old, sour milk down the kitchen sink with no evidence of a problem. Net, for a lot of disposal, not a problem.
skaevola 13y ago
I didn't think that the article was sensationalist at all. It briefly identified a problem and then discussed solutions used currently, possible future solutions, and interviewed plenty of people in relevant fields. Your grandmother's solution was even addressed (pouring the byproduct into rivers is environmentally harmful). I literally can't see how you found the article sensationalist. It's practically a textbook example of proper journalism.
3327 13y ago
first great response covered a few points I wanted to say about the article... To add more my family is of Greek and Turkish heritage, I live in NYC and make my own yoghurt (super easy)... I also strain a batch. The water that gets strained you can drink, in fact, its actually the same water that remains in yoghurt when you take a deep scoop and leave higher ground yoghurt relative to the remainder. Yoghurt has a Ph level of around 4.5-5.0 making it low acidic (for comparison orange juice has a ph of 3.5). This article refers to it as acid whey and makes it sound as if its hydrochloric acid. In all honestly there are much more serious problems to the environment than yoghurt water. How about when excess or spoiled OJ is dumped in Florida? By default its ph is an order more acidic so the impact should be too... Plus yogurt water is drinkable and is actually good for you (proof by induction).
- tallanvor 13y ago
  The article states that "the resulting whey is roughly as acidic as orange juice", so the industrial process probably creates more acidic waste than what you make at home (because they're using a different process that results in less dilution, I would assume). The article specifically explains why acid whey is harmful to the environment - it's decomposition robs streams and rivers of oxygen and kills fish. The point is that your personal experience making a small amount of yoghurt at home does not make you an expert when it comes to large scale production and the problems resulting from the waste produced.
  - 3327 13y ago
    >>The article states that "the resulting whey is roughly as acidic as orange juice", so the industrial process probably creates more acidic waste than what you make at home (because they're using a different process that results in less dilution, I would assume). "roughly" is a pretty general term when there is an order difference. The difference between 4.5 and 3 is pretty significant. Unless they actually tested the Ph and publish the number in the article they should not be making claims as "roughly". >The point is that your personal experience making a small amount of yoghurt at home does not make you an expert when it comes to large scale production and the problems resulting from the waste produced. >The article specifically explains why acid whey is harmful to the environment - it's decomposition robs streams and rivers of oxygen and kills fish. yes that is evident. my point was that there are much more harmful things going into rivers and oceans rather than yoghurt juice.
Spooky23 13y ago
The focus on New York makes it suspect in my mind... NY is going through an era of very extreme environmental activism regarding waste water -- mostly centering around gas fracking. The interests that fund these groups are rich NYC types who are modern day land barons, buying up defunct farmland and building vast landholdings. Things that make farm business difficult are good for these people.
erock 13y ago
My wife works for Agriculture Extension in our state, so she is a bit in the know here. She says Greek Yogurt is the only growth dairy has seen in over 20 years. Because of that, everyone is going to (or already has) start making it. As far as being New York centric, I would venture to guess it would be because a lot of the research this is based on, is coming out of Cornell, which is the Land Grant institution in New York (Land Grants run extension).
ebiester 13y ago
I read the article, and saw something completely different. Whey is a potentially valuable byproduct, too nutritious to just throw away and they can't do it legally anyway. So these were some of the ways that the whey was being used. The food industry looking for ways to use the byproducts of an industrial process isn't exactly new, but it's also not something outside the industry thinks about. Modern Farmer is doing some interesting work in the intersection between farming and how we're re-conceptualizing food in the last decade.

dxbydt 13y ago

>so her solution was merely down the drain. Suppose greek yogurt hadn't taken off in the US & remained a niche product for some health-freaks, then Dannon & Chobani would also throw it down the drain & we'd be none the wiser. The product has taken off in a way no one imagined. At the supermarkets, I see not just athletes but positively obese masses loading up on greek yogurt in some mistaken belief that it can compensate for their other excesses with soda pop & candy. Greek yogurt sells out even after they price it at $6! Clearly, we need an industrial solution to get rid of the byproduct, if we are going to manufacture the damn thing on an industrial scale.

jerrya 13y ago
But remember that much of US Greek Yogurt is Greek Yogurt + SUGAR + JAM + FRUIT = Candy.
- nhebb 13y ago
  I'm glad you brought that up. Sweetened yogurt is one of the worst pseudo health foods on the market. Chobani's strawberry has 20 gm of sugar (4.76 tsp), and Yoplait is worse at 33 gm (7.86 tsp). That's a butt-load of sugar for such a small container.
  - lawnchair_larry 13y ago
    That's an odd way to count. So fruits are bad pseudo health foods too? 8oz of pure, fresh squeezed orange juice has 22 grams of sugar. It wouldn't make sense to say that is "~5 tsp of sugar".
    - xyzzyz 13y ago
      fruit juice is indeed not very healthy, because of its enormous sugar content. you'd probably never eat for a single meal the number of oranges that go into a single orange juice glass.
    - itsybitsycoder 13y ago
      Fruit juice is not the best example of a health food. There's as much sugar in most fruit juices than there is in an equal volume of Coke [1]. When we were kids, my brother had to get caps put on all his teeth because he drank too much apple juice, and even though we brushed 2x a day, the sugar rotted his teeth. Plain fruit is better because it has more fiber and about half the sugar in a serving than the juice [2]. [1] http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-204_162-673229.html http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-204_162-673229.html [2] http://healthland.time.com/2009/08/07/calorie-counter-fruit-vs-fruit-juice/ http://healthland.time.com/2009/08/07/calorie-counter-fruit-...
    - nhebb 13y ago
      As Dr. Lustig (the "sugar is poison" guy) says, when nature delivers a poison it often provides the antidote. For fruits, the antidote is fiber. Juice removes much of that fiber. My grandmother had a seizure and was rushed to the hospital. I happened to be in the area and went to see her. When I got there, she was conscious but catatonic. I said hello to her, but she stared straight ahead, unresponsive. Her blood sugar had dropped really low, so the nurse brought in a cup of orange juice. She drank about half of it - maybe 4 oz. The nurse put the cup down, and a few seconds later my grandmother turned, looked at me, and said, "Hi Nick, what are you doing here?" I'm not trying to exaggerate, but it was like someone flipped a switch. I was amazed at how fast the sugar absorbed into her bloodstream. So I guess the point of my story is that you shouldn't underestimate the power of the sugar in an 8 oz. glass of orange juice.
rmrfrmrf 13y ago
> some mistaken belief that it can compensate for their other excesses with soda pop & candy I had no idea that the obesity epidemic could be solved by taking away soda pop and candy! Surely some nutritionist here is wondering, "why didn't I think of that?!"
- freehunter 13y ago
  Every nutritionist in the world suggests not consuming soda and candy. The problem is people don't listen.

mbreese 13y ago

I think that it's all a question of scale. The amount of whey produced by your grandmother is exponentially less than that produced by Chobani or Dannon. So, while she could just pour it down the drain, at industrial scale, that just isn't possible. But, you do bring up a good point - what does the rest of the world do with their excess acidic whey? Is it produced anywhere else in the world at industrial scales?

guyzero 13y ago

Your Lebanese grandmother did not pour a few million gallons down the drain.

lotsofcows 13y ago
No, but a few million Lebanese grandmothers did. Which seems like too low a number...

rayiner 13y ago

> My (Lebanese) grandmother used to make it by hanging a cloth above the sink, so her solution was merely down the drain. Which is exactly what companies would do, on an industrial scale, if it weren't illegal. But in a sense what your grandmother does is wrong. Even if we assume that there is no inherent value to healthy oceans and rivers, it robs, in nickles and dimes, fisherman whose catches are affected by the acid in household wastewater. Your grandmother saves a few cents on proper disposal while costing other people a few cents to deal with the problem she created.

derleth 13y ago
And if you still Kant see how this would be a bad thing, look up the Categorical Imperative sometime: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative
- millstone 13y ago
  Do you mean to argue that the laws that govern industrial food safety and waste disposal ought also to apply to homemade food? (I hope not, since I've been known to grill and eat a medium-rare burger!) It's reasonable to hold large commercial operations to stricter standards. I doubt that any homemade byproducts are disposed of "properly," but the impact of homemade Greek yogurt must be a tiny fraction of the commercial impact, and I don't think anyone is prepared to regulate what individuals do with milk after they buy it.
  - graycat 13y ago
    > waste disposal In my case, it's easy: All the 'stuff' from the kitchen or bathrooms flows through big, white plastic pipes to a concrete tank buried in my back yard. Out of the tank are some tube, tile, rock or whatever ways for the water to flow. Done. I never see the stuff again. The water from the tank adds water and plant nutrients to my backyard. It's all the courtesy of some wonderful 'bugs': Once I had a sore on my foot, applied some Wal-Mart triple antibiotic cream, washed my socks, and a few days later way in the back of my backyard saw 'stuff' bubbling up, stuff I didn't want to see again! Sure: That Wal-Mart stuff was POWERFUL and sterilized my septic tank! Solution? Sure: There's a box, Rid-X or some such, can buy at the grocery store. The box has some dry beads with no odor. So, flush the beads and, presto, the septic tank is working again. For milk, I've poured old, sour milk down the kitchen sink with no evidence of a problem. Net, for a lot of disposal, not a problem.

skaevola 13y ago

I didn't think that the article was sensationalist at all. It briefly identified a problem and then discussed solutions used currently, possible future solutions, and interviewed plenty of people in relevant fields. Your grandmother's solution was even addressed (pouring the byproduct into rivers is environmentally harmful). I literally can't see how you found the article sensationalist. It's practically a textbook example of proper journalism.

3327 13y ago

first great response covered a few points I wanted to say about the article... To add more my family is of Greek and Turkish heritage, I live in NYC and make my own yoghurt (super easy)... I also strain a batch. The water that gets strained you can drink, in fact, its actually the same water that remains in yoghurt when you take a deep scoop and leave higher ground yoghurt relative to the remainder. Yoghurt has a Ph level of around 4.5-5.0 making it low acidic (for comparison orange juice has a ph of 3.5). This article refers to it as acid whey and makes it sound as if its hydrochloric acid. In all honestly there are much more serious problems to the environment than yoghurt water. How about when excess or spoiled OJ is dumped in Florida? By default its ph is an order more acidic so the impact should be too... Plus yogurt water is drinkable and is actually good for you (proof by induction).

tallanvor 13y ago
The article states that "the resulting whey is roughly as acidic as orange juice", so the industrial process probably creates more acidic waste than what you make at home (because they're using a different process that results in less dilution, I would assume). The article specifically explains why acid whey is harmful to the environment - it's decomposition robs streams and rivers of oxygen and kills fish. The point is that your personal experience making a small amount of yoghurt at home does not make you an expert when it comes to large scale production and the problems resulting from the waste produced.
- 3327 13y ago
  >>The article states that "the resulting whey is roughly as acidic as orange juice", so the industrial process probably creates more acidic waste than what you make at home (because they're using a different process that results in less dilution, I would assume). "roughly" is a pretty general term when there is an order difference. The difference between 4.5 and 3 is pretty significant. Unless they actually tested the Ph and publish the number in the article they should not be making claims as "roughly". >The point is that your personal experience making a small amount of yoghurt at home does not make you an expert when it comes to large scale production and the problems resulting from the waste produced. >The article specifically explains why acid whey is harmful to the environment - it's decomposition robs streams and rivers of oxygen and kills fish. yes that is evident. my point was that there are much more harmful things going into rivers and oceans rather than yoghurt juice.

Spooky23 13y ago

The focus on New York makes it suspect in my mind... NY is going through an era of very extreme environmental activism regarding waste water -- mostly centering around gas fracking. The interests that fund these groups are rich NYC types who are modern day land barons, buying up defunct farmland and building vast landholdings. Things that make farm business difficult are good for these people.

erock 13y ago

My wife works for Agriculture Extension in our state, so she is a bit in the know here. She says Greek Yogurt is the only growth dairy has seen in over 20 years. Because of that, everyone is going to (or already has) start making it. As far as being New York centric, I would venture to guess it would be because a lot of the research this is based on, is coming out of Cornell, which is the Land Grant institution in New York (Land Grants run extension).

ebiester 13y ago

I read the article, and saw something completely different. Whey is a potentially valuable byproduct, too nutritious to just throw away and they can't do it legally anyway. So these were some of the ways that the whey was being used. The food industry looking for ways to use the byproducts of an industrial process isn't exactly new, but it's also not something outside the industry thinks about. Modern Farmer is doing some interesting work in the intersection between farming and how we're re-conceptualizing food in the last decade.