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This is a waste of time. Let me explain. After years of spinning wheels, like many others, I've found that gimmicky crap like this is just that - gimmicky crap

• enraged_camel 13y ago
  >>As technology-minded guys who tend not to get a lot of physical exercise, we're really susceptible to people throwing around the term "scientific" to describe their exercise pitches. Actually, the headline is targeted towards people who know very little science. Tech folks like us approach things like this with a great deal of skepticism. I bet more than half the posters in this thread have at least skimmed the study on which the article is based. You can't really expect the general populace to be so inquisitive.
• graeme 13y ago
  I'll add that, if you've never been strong, you don't know what you're missing. You could try it, and decide it's not for you. But a lot of self-professed nerds disdain it, assuming it's something only stupid jocks do. It's not. Getting strong has been one of the most fulfilling things I've ever done. It's also had lasting effects in pain reduction, how other perceive me, and my self-confidence.
  • nikster 13y ago
    I'll admit that my quick and dirty work out doesn't give me huge body builder style muscles. I am merely athletic, not huge. If I wanted to be huge, I guess I'd have to put in the work, lots of literature on the science of body building.
    • beachstartup 13y ago
      > huge body builder style muscles those are INCREDIBLY difficult to get. you're not going to get those just by lifting big with deadlift/squat/presses a couple of times a week. it's like when women say they don't want to lift because they don't "want to get bulky". 100% pure nonsense. it's VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY difficult to get big muscles. let me say that again... it's VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY DIFFICULT to get big muscles. it has to be nearly a full time job for YEARS and YEARS of your life.
      • pvnick 13y ago
        "Crap, I was just doing a couple squats and all of a sudden I'm as big and scary-looking as Arnold Schwarzenegger!" - no one ever
      • UweSchmidt 13y ago
        The women you cite have a point though (while misusing the word "bulky" in front of a bodybuilder / fitness expert) When I stopped ballroom dancing and started working out more, I did not get bulky in any way, however it surely felt that way! Gone was my coordination, my elegance, my posture! Isolated, limited movement with weight is the exact opposite of rhytmic dance movement with lots of body tension. It annoyed me, but I can imagine that this matters a lot more to women. In dancing I've seen women who might have been a little overweight, moving around gracefully. Just wanted to point that out, because I have noticed several comments like yours around the 'net recently - maybe people getting a little touchy that the work they put into their body is not appreciated sufficiently?
        • graeme 13y ago
• nikster 13y ago
  Nope, it works. Look at cats. Cats sleep up to 17 hours a day. They lie around seemingly doing nothing most of their waking hours. But if you watch a cat work out - wow!! it works out. It's going all out for a few minutes. Talking about a healthy country cat here, which, compared to its body weight pulls of physical feats a human can only dream of. People often ask me if I go to the gym. Nope. I just do push ups now and then, not even every day, but when I do, I do them properly, military style push ups until I almost faint. Between 50 and 80 full on ones seems to do it for me. Takes... 2 minutes or so?! Fitness secrets!
  • jacques_chester 13y ago
    Smaller animals have a higher power to weight ratio than larger animals, because strength scales as a quadratic function and mass as a cubic function. For the same reason, smaller weightlifers snatch a larger multiple of bodyweight than bigger weightlifters. At the Olympic level it goes from about 3xBW down to 1.6xBW depending on weight division. Also, humans are upright bipeds in a body that has the architectural hallmarks of a system for quadripedal locomotion. Cats have not compromised those advantages: we have.
    • nikster 13y ago
      Tigers. Do I need to say more?
      • pvnick 13y ago
        Imagine if tigers started doing compound weightlifting exercises. We humans would be doomed.
      • jacques_chester 13y ago
        Yes. Proportionally, tigers can't jump as high as their smaller cousins, can't run as fast as their smaller cousins and unlike humans still use quadripedal locomotion.
  • antidaily 13y ago
    I love looking at cats!
• JPKab 13y ago
  'Starting Strength' is great for beginners. It is simple, it involves linear progression, and it is a clear set of directions which explicitly tell you to NOT DO ANYTHING ELSE. This is important, because with newbies it is tempting to go to the gym and then start playing with all the other toys. I did SS for several months, and after significant gains of muscle have moved on to the Wendler 531 program, which uses much slower progression and is more compatible with my normal caloric intake.
  • pvnick 13y ago
    Awesome! Glad to hear you're focusing on an effective plan. I just started madcow 5x5 myself. I love the simplicity and effectiveness of sticking to compound exercises. Plus I don't look like an idiot doing a one-legged dumbbell curl on one of those squishy half-sphere things. Edit: btw, for anybody who read JPKab's comment and is wondering what we mean when we say "beginner," we mean squatting less than 250lbs or so and benching less than near 200lbs range. A novice in the strength-building sense can still be stronger than 99% of people you'll encounter in this world. Starting strength will get you there really effectively.
    • levint 13y ago
      Okay, so I'll bite. The main reason I never hit the gym was/is because I'm too embarrassed to be seen exercising by others. Interestingly, my problem is that I'm too thin (with a bmi of 18 now) so my goal was/is to become both stronger and huger. How about if I get this machine (or something like it): http://eatinggreat.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/MACHINE-WEIGHTS-THE-FITNESS-WORKOUT1.jpeg http://eatinggreat.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/MACHINE-WE... Could I then be fine following the SS book you mention with it?
      • pvnick 13y ago
        I'm sorry to hear that you're feeling self-conscious about going to the gym! Side-note: if big buff fitness gurus see a beginner doing squats with good technique they're going to have a TON of respect for you regardless of the weight you're lifting or what kind of shape you're in. The machine you linked to isn't going to help you with SS - you'd want to eliminate machines and cables from your fitness vocabulary alltogether - but it's still better than not exercising. SS would call for a setup like this: http://www.littleblokefitness.com.au/wp-content/uploads/wpsc/product_images/Squat-rack-FID-bench-oly-bar-plates.jpg http://www.littleblokefitness.com.au/wp-content/uploads/wpsc... assuming of course that you can move that bench out of the way. Looks a lot less expensive!
• bobisme 13y ago
  As somebody who sits at computer all day, who is too cheap to buy equipment, too embarrassed to be seen exercising by others, and who hates the idea of devoting an hour a day to physical agony, this appeals to me.
  • pvnick 13y ago
    Look at Leangains and combine that with Starting Strength. I put in 2 and a half hours per week (that's 10 hours per month. total) and eat 1-2 large meals a day consisting of just about whatever I want. I'm thrilled with the shape I'm in and best of all it's been really easy to get here once I stopped focusing on the kinds of time-wasters this article describes and instead started focusing on the Right Way (compound exercises and leangains eating guidelines).
  • masomenos 13y ago
    Training should only cause physical agony if: 1) you have a serious, unaddressed medical condition (please seek help!) 2) you're trying something far beyond your normal activity level. There's no rush, work up gradually and your body will adapt. If a walk around the block is a challenge, start there. Repeatable training sessions over time is what makes change, not beating yourself up in the name of 'health'.
    • mtext 13y ago
      or if you hate it. I could spend my time doing anything better than at a stupid gym.
• augustflanagan 13y ago
  I used to go to the gym and lift really heavy things off the ground for 2-3 hours a day 5 days a week. It was great exercise and I loved how strong I was after a few years of doing that religiously. At some point life "got in the way", and between a kid and a full-time job my gym time started to disappear. I've tried a lot of creative approaches to keeping fit with shorter workouts, and what I have come up with isn't all that different than what is being prescribed here. My basic approach is this: 1. Pushups - every other morning I do 5 minutes of pushups where I start at a set of 20 then bump up by a count of 5 until I'm at 35. Then I work my way back down to 20 allowing brief 20 second rests in between. 2. Pullups - same as pushups except I start at 6 and bump by 2 until I hit 10, and then work back down. 3. Squats - No weight, three sets of 50. This could be better, but I'm kinda lazy when it comes to squats 4. Mix in exercises using resistance bands. (shoulder press, lat pulls, tricep extensions, etc). I usually do these in three sets of 12-15. Each workout takes about 15 minutes, and while I've lost some muscle mass I'm still a pretty lean/muscular 170. I'm sure there are all sorts of optimizations I could make, but honestly I don't really care at this point. I've found a quick workout I can do 3-4 times a week and it is keeping me pretty damn healthy.
  • awj 13y ago
    > 3. Squats - No weight, three sets of 50. This could be better, but I'm kinda lazy when it comes to squats Look into doing pistol squats[1]. The bodyweight fitness subreddit[2] is actually a pretty good resource for what you're doing. Glad you've found something that works for you. [1] http://www.beastskills.com/one-legged-squat-the-pistol/ http://www.beastskills.com/one-legged-squat-the-pistol/ [2] http://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness http://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness
    • CoffeeDregs 13y ago
      Pistol squats: careful there. I damaged the cartilage on the back of my patella doing something similar. The damage was caused merely by stepping up onto an almost waist high platform a couple of times. This is not the usual consult-a-doctor bullshit: I was 23 and deadlifting 275+ for reps, so I wasn't "weak" or out of shape. Make sure you have the proper strength for a full pistol squat before trying it.
• DanielStraight 13y ago
  "This is a waste of time" is read by someone who currently does no exercise as "I may as well not bother trying". Fitness advice is so fragmented and the debates between those who practice various types of fitness are so vigorous that it puts people off to fitness entirely. If you actually want to inspire people who are not fit to get fit, it is going to take encouragement, not constant criticism of every possible method of getting fit. There is literally no exercise routine that someone can propose and not face immediate criticism. A beginner doesn't need a perfect routine (which clearly doesn't exist anyway given all the argument on the issue). They need to do something. Something that is not actively harmful and will increase their fitness, even in a small way. You may think you are showing people a better way, but you are really giving people nowhere to turn for support, because everyone always tries to show a better way no matter what the original way was. I could come here every single day posting about another fitness routine and every single day I would be told it's wrong. So if everything is wrong, what do you think I am going to do? Nothing.
  • pvnick 13y ago
    See my edit for the right way. I'm sorry the bloated fitness industry has inundated you with bad advice :(
    • Caskman 13y ago
      Motivation is an issue for some people. I myself find it hard to get myself to go to the gym but I can much more easily do workouts at home. This is much better than nothing at all and I am working up the motivation to move on to the gym.
      • pvnick 13y ago
        If motivation is youre problem try some of this stuff: http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12553280 http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12553280 I could be completely depressed and sleep deprived, drink a scoop of that, and the ONLY thing I'll want to do is get in a squat rack and put some heavy shit in the air.
• MisterBastahrd 13y ago
  If you're going to the gym to burn calories, you're going for the wrong reasons. There's no better way to burn off excess calories than by not eating them. Exercise is a ridiculously inefficient way to burn calories and get rid of fat.
  • scorcher 13y ago
    Just because burning calories from exercise will never replace proper diet doesn't mean its worthless. You can easily double your weight loss rate by going to the gym a few times a week. Far from worthless in my books.
    • john_b 13y ago
      You're both right. He never said that gym time wouldn't help you lose weight, just that, if it's the only reason you're going to the gym, you're doing it wrong. You can have the best of both worlds. If you just spend 3 or so hours/week at the gym lifting heavy things in a focused, disciplined manner, you won't have to worry about eating too much, you'll have to worry about not eating enough. And the types of food that you want to eat will change too. It's almost magic. Sugars, fatty foods, excessive carbs, etc will just start to seem unappetizing.
• yummyfajitas 13y ago
  This is very true, but I'd also suggest making a big tweak to SS if your goal is not to be a powerlifter. Substitute the front squat and trap bar deadlift for the back squat and deadlift in the program. If you use bad form on the front squat, you drop the bar. If you use bad form on the back squat, the bar drops you. Similarly, the trap bar deadlift also makes it easier to keep your back straight and avoids awkwardness (and possible errors/injuries) as you get the bar past your knees. (Both are suggestions given to me by my boxing coach.)
  • ahh 13y ago
    I'm not convinced that change is particularly valuable. It's not at all hard to learn to drop a bar from a back squat safely--if you're lifting in a power rack (this is mine: http://www.roguefitness.com/rogue-r-3-power-rack.php http://www.roguefitness.com/rogue-r-3-power-rack.php) it's almost trivial, and if you're lifting off a stand, it takes me about five minutes to show someone how to jump forward. What's far worse is that good form on a front squat is harder, especially for inflexible people (read: most men.) It takes a wider stance, more ankle motion, and better control over your butt and spine to stay stable. You also can move less weight and it's less of a full body exercise. Trap bar deadlifts are less problematic but I still wouldn't use them. Rippetoe has called them "a leg press with a bar"--sure, it's easier to stay vertical, but you shouldn't be trying to do that. And while yes, it takes some instruction and practice to learn good deadlift form, that's time you should be spending with a coach anyway. Mind you, front squats and trap bar deads are by no means bad exercises and are way better than what 95% of people waste their time with; if that's what gets you to spend time under heavy weight, good for you. I just wouldn't tell my friends to go that direction.
• runjake 13y ago
  For overall health and lasting benefits you're going to need to get into a gym and pick something heavy off the ground. Not necessarily true. There are also body weight exercises/calisthenics you can do at home. Hell, even regular walking and some yard work do wonders for your health. You do not need to go to a gym and lift weights. This exercise regime (or "gimmick", as you refer to it) is completely valid, and it's better than doing nothing. The average person probably can't even complete the 7 minute exercises with proper form.
• phaus 13y ago
  A 7-minute workout isn't really going to accomplish much, but the original paper suggests repeating the 7 minute program multiple times per session. This article is attempting to repackage old knowledge, but that doesn't really mean that it's a waste of time. There are world class athletes that use only bodyweight exercises to stay in shape. Going to the gym and picking heavy things off of the ground isn't a strict requirement of lasting fitness. Weightlifting is a perfectly viable method, but it isn't the only way to get in shape.
• oneandoneis2 13y ago
  To add to that: As a programmer who's been half-crippled by RSI in the past, and half-crippled again more recently by a broken shoulder (motorbike accident) and massive whiplash (car crash) within a year of each other, SS is a really worthwhile read. I rejoined the local gym six months ago with near-constant back pain and posture that was screwed to hell. I was seriously nervous about my ability to even lift an empty bar, never mind serious weights. A month or two in, I reached a set of weights that I simply couldn't safely increase any further - not because I wasn't getting stronger, but because my appalling posture wouldn't allow me to do it properly. So I've worked since at doing the same weights each time, but doing them right This week is the first time since that I've been able to start adding weight - just a couple kilos, but an increase nonetheless. But bearing in mind my back was literally so weak I had to be slow & cautious about getting out of bed in the morning six months ago: courtesy of nothing but 3 gym visits a week following the advice in SS, I'm now stronger than I ever have been, and am slowly undoing the damage of years of godawful posture. The other day I was sitting on a sofa with my lady friend sitting on my lap. I was able to put my arms under her and stand up from that position, lifting her entire bodyweight as well as my own. And no matter how weak you might think you are right now, unless you've taken genuine spine trauma recently, I gaurantee you're stronger than I was six months ago. And the nice thing is, it's come with very little change in body size - almost all my clothes still fit.
  • pvnick 13y ago
    I'm really happy for your inspiring progress! @skeptics, this kind of overall health improvement is what you can expect out of exercising the right way (Starting Strength) and avoiding the wrong way (The Scientific 7-Minute Workout).
    • didibus 13y ago
      You guys are completely off the mark. Obviously you need to do high intensity workouts the proper way. The higher the intensity, the better you must be at doing the exercise properly. Since you seem to have started working out using high intensity, I assume you did not know how to properly do it. High Intensity is not recommended to beginners. It is a special form of workout. This is why they mention this in the article: "caution should be taken when prescribing this protocol to individuals who are overweight/obese, detrained, previously injured, or elderly or for individuals with comorbidities. For individuals with hypertension or heart disease, the isometric exercises (wall sit, plank, and side plank) are not recommended." Obviously, for beginners, something with less intensity, and a higher tolerance for mistake will have better results. While you learn how to properly do exercise, and build a core foundation, that will later allow you to move to high intensity. The reason you would want to later move to high intensity, is for either lack of time, in which case, you will need the shortest workout with the highest fitness accomplishments. Or for improved oxygen flow levels and decreased body fat, which high intensity is often better at than other types of workout, no matter how much of it. The workout described in this article, is one routine, you should not be doing it ad vitam eternam, it serves as an example, and you already need to be in a certain fitness level to perform it properly.
• Kiro 13y ago
  So how much do you squat? Most people I've seen who are following SS and SL look really weak and seem to struggle with the same (low) weight for ages. I personally think 3-split 3x10 will not only give you bigger muscles but also more strength.
  • pvnick 13y ago
    I personally believe - with zero evidence to back myself up - that set/rep counts are an artificial construct and that the key is to just do the damn squats and eat enough food afterwards.
    • jacques_chester 13y ago
      Modulating sets and reps is generally regarded to affect outcomes. The emphasis of adaptation to a set of 15 at 60% are different from the emphasis for 5 sets of 3 at 90%.
  • vidarh 13y ago
    If they "struggle with the same (low) weight for ages" they are not following either SS or SL, as both programs include protocols for deloading to get past sticking points that works, and to eventually changing programs once your progress slows too much. E.g. SL goes from 5x5 to 3x5 to 1x5, to switching off SL entirely and switching to Madcow or Texas Method or similar - this progression is explicitly documented as part of the program, up to and including stopping SL. SL is by design a beginners routine, intended to exploit quick recovery while you're a beginner. It is intended to get too hard for you to continue to be able to gain on it. Starting your workout with 5x5 squats 3 times a weak is not something normal people will keep doing with heavy weights. Once I started flattening out with SL 5x5, it took <6 months of substantial gains before I was flattening out on 1x5 too, and switched first to Texas Method, then to Wendlers 5/3/1. At the moment I'm doing a program that is similar to 5/3/1 but slightly higher volume, as I'm seeing decent results from that while eating like a pig.
• crazygringo 13y ago
  > but you'll offset the entire effect of this workout by eating a cookie. Who said the point of the workout was weight loss? That's a really narrow view. How about just, you know, health? > a 30 minute run and burn the same net amount of calories Wait... now you seem to be contradicting yourself. So, a 30 minute run is offset by eating a cookie too? I can't tell if you mean the run is good, or you're saying that 30 minute runs are bad... which doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm sure you have a point to make, but I can't tell what it is. And as for "picking something heavy off the ground"... push-ups (step 3), for example, aren't any different than that. Clearly this is not a body-building routine, but for just getting into better shape with minimal time, it seems pretty good. > As technology-minded guys who tend not to get a lot of physical exercise Well that's kind of the point... this is a lot better than not getting a lot of physical exercise, isn't it?
  • rdtsc 13y ago
    > Who said the point of the workout was weight loss? He is probably American. Americans are obsessed with losing weight and consider gyms as places "one goes to loose weight". Heard this over and over from relatives and others. "Gotta hit the gym after the holidays/after eating cake/etc". I tried telling some of them how unproductive it is to run on the treadmill for 2 hours then eat a large BigMac but it just doesn't register. Weight and health are not necessarily strictly and linearly related. One can be thin as a stick figure and be very sick or can be overweight and relatively healthy. Why should one go to the gym? There are many reasons, feel better, get stronger, get more nimble, improve dexterity, improve mobility, meet people, and yes loose weight too but is just one of the reasons.
    • Tarential 13y ago
      I experienced this phenomenon. I've been working hard to get in shape, and I told all my friends. The net result? They all think I'm trying to lose weight! The ridiculous part is I've never had weight to lose. I started at 140 lbs! After considerable effort I'm up to 165 lbs now. An hour on the weights every second day and I eat ~4,000 calories / day. My goal is to reach 180.
• paydro 13y ago
  I'd also like to add this article to the discussion - Barbell Training is Big Medicine (http://startingstrength.com/articles/barbell_medicine_sullivan.pdf http://startingstrength.com/articles/barbell_medicine_sulliv...). The article only does a dip into the effects of strength training, but the more I research about strength & health the more I truly believe that strength (not big bulky muscles) is something everyone should strive for.
  • pvnick 13y ago
    Wow! Just read the article, it was really enlightening!
• peterwwillis 13y ago
  Weight lifting will not (ever) keep your legs from burning as you bound up 5 flights of stairs, two stairs at a time. This program will, with enough practice. If you never want to have this kind of performance it may be a waste for you.
• gadders 13y ago
  5-3-1 Boring But Big/NOV is a pretty good workout in a similar vein. You get stronger month on month, and the workout can be completed in under an hour. Instead of prowler pushing, I substitute in running on a switched off treadmill. You have to generate resistance to move the belt.
• akmiller 13y ago
  This is definitely not a waste of time. I do routines similar to this and I've definitely gotten stronger doing them. I also do many pull-ups as well which aren't on this chart, but all of these exercises are great exercises. You are NOT going to lose a lot of weight with this alone. However, if you are already a healthy active person then adding a routing like this only helps. My brother spends at least 5 days a week at a gym lifting weights and eats a very strict diet. I'm more of the runner type, doing Taekwondo 2 days a week and more body weight workouts like this (and I eat fairly well for the most part). He's definitely stronger than me, but I have no doubt that I'm in just as good of shape if not better than him.
• kenjackson 13y ago
  After years of spinning wheels, like many others, I've found that gimmicky crap like this is just that - gimmicky crap. This may be more efficient than a 30 minute run and burn the same net amount of calories, but you'll offset the entire effect of this workout by eating a cookie. For overall health and lasting benefits you're going to need to get into a gym and pick something heavy off the ground. Can I disprove one anecdote, with another? Sure, why not? I used to go to the gym 6x a week for about 60-90/session and lifted heavy things from every possible position imaginable. I even won a fitness contest at my university (a weird combination of weight to bench press, squat, deadlift, and pull ups). I was certainly in great shape and very strong. But life intruded. For a while I did nothing and got in much worse shape. I needed to get back in shape, but I didn't have time for the gym (at least that was my opinion). So I started just doing stuff at home. Probably 10 minutes per day. Push ups, pull ups, crunches, and biking a short distance to the bus for work. While I'm probably not quite as strong as I was in college, I'm pretty close. I've probably gotten something like 90% of the gains with 15% of the effort. To be a competitive athlete or bodybuilder that 10% makes a huge difference. But for most people, I think this seems like the right tradeoff.
  • Judson 13y ago
    Its great that you got in shape lifting heavy weights. Mark Rippetoe discusses why it is easier to regain old strength as opposed to building new strength in his starting strength series. I don't really see your anecdote disproving the GP, rather, it seems it is further evidence of the GP's hypothesis that heavy lifting is required for strength gains. Congratulations on your gains, though.
    • shardling 13y ago
      The GP wasn't saying heavy lifting is required for strength gains, he was making the much stronger claim that it was necessary to be healthy. (Perhaps unintentionally; I'm not sure they actually read the bloody linked article.)
      • Judson 13y ago
• robterrell 13y ago
  Do I really need to go into the gym to get something heavy to lift? I happen to have something heavy already at my house: my fat self. Right now I do nothing other than jogging or strenuous hiking, and I recognize that I need to add strength training. More than half of these seem to be strength exercises. I don't understand all the weird schisms and cliques that pop up on HN when fitness topics are discussed. From an idiot's perspective, it seems like I could get good strength gains with these exercise and my (already-considerable) body weight.
  • pyoung 13y ago
    I am not familiar with any of the 'science', but from what I understand you definitely want to do some sort of strength training. It helps with weight regulation, injury prevention, and overall health. The scientific 7-minute will probably work, or at least be a good place to start. For me personally, I've noticed that when I pay for a gym membership (or some other fitness program), I actually force myself to use the service due to the financial commitment. When i try and save money by working out at home, I always skip sessions. If I could get better at motivating myself for the home workouts, I would probably do those more, but like someone else said, the best workout is the one that you actually do.
  • georgeoliver 13y ago
    You definitely don't. My home barbell area is 6x8 feet, and could be less, but that's the space I need to train in so I leave it set up. Like pyoung said, you want to make it easy to want to exercise; I do it at home because it's just more convenient and takes less time. For others I'm sure a gym makes more sense.
  • douevenlift 13y ago
    You are correct. Push-ups, pull-ups and other exercises that you can do with your own body provide the same kind benefits as weight training, just at a much smaller range. That is, it's harder (and slower) to start, and you can only go so far.
    • foobarqux 13y ago
• shardling 13y ago
  It's cute that you think everyone has access to a gym, I guess.
• Sym3tri 13y ago
  It's unfortunate that single comment threads dominate the entire discussion on HN sometimes.
• GigabyteCoin 13y ago
  "For overall health and lasting benefits you're going to need to get into a gym and pick something heavy off the ground." That statement is not true. Yoga is incredibly beneficial to the body with many lasting benefits after you leave the mat. And you never have to lift anything heavy. Ever.
  • bo1024 13y ago
    Agreed, I don't know of any research that would back up such a claim.
• conroe64 13y ago
  I tried Mark Rippletoe's program, and it didn't work for me. IMO, it worked my legs way too much. Squats 3 times a week? I went up in the beginning, but plateaued in a couple of months and then got the flu (and I rarely get sick). After a couple of weeks off, my legs were still sore. I tried to get back into it, but the constant pain and lack of progress finally made me give up. Also, I don't understand why his routine is so lopsided as to favor the lower body. Right now I'm doing Mike Mentzer's Heavy Duty routine, which after 3 months has been fantastic. It uses HIT principles, where you are only doing the minimum work necessary to stimulate the muscle. This translates to 1 set per exercise twice a week or so. Check out http://boiseexperiment.com/HeavyDuty/?page_id=308 http://boiseexperiment.com/HeavyDuty/?page_id=308 for a very detailed account of the results of doing such a workout.
  • jdwissler 13y ago
    I'm also doing Mentzer's workout. Even though it is only one set per workout, that set tends to be pretty painful. ;)
  • deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  • pvnick 13y ago
    Are you sure you were eating enough? Eating more is almost always the answer to plateaus. Also squats are the best exercise for all-around strength, not just legs. Squatting more weight does wonders for other things like bench and overhead press.
    • conroe64 13y ago
      I wasn't drinking a gallon of milk a day, as recommended by Rippletoe, although I was eating more. It gave me a big belly, gastrointestinal problems and gained about 10 lbs, which was another issue, too. I could have eaten even more though. But I don't get the whole eat until your stuffed mantra either. It seems so unnatural and unhealthy.
      • 13y ago
• bromang 13y ago
  Starting Strength and only primarily targets the ability to lift heavy objects. On its own it does nothing to improve your cardio fitness and it doesn't directly help with postural problems or injury prevention. And if your main interest is in gaining muscle and looking better, there are much better routines. In all the gyms I've been to, I've yet to see a big guy who was doing a stripped down strength focused routine... Finally, it also has to be noted that many people do not have good experiences with the big barbell exercises, especially if they have pre-existing issues with their knees/back/shoulders, even if they use good form.
  • dpmehta02 13y ago
    Deadlifts, one of the core exercises of SS, is famous for improving posture when performed correctly. Lifting weights in general has been shown to improve cardiovascular health; obviously not as much as pure cardiovascular training, but the science is pretty conclusive that it has a positive impact on your heart. Lifting weights prevents injuries by improving bone density, strengthening connective tissue around troublesome joints (knees, rotator cuff, hips, etc.) and preventing the use of poor posture to accomplish everyday tasks (e.g., instead of hunching your back and stressing your spine to carry a heavy ice chest, you can use the muscles of your upper back). It also adds muscle, which increases your BMR (AKA metabolism). If your main interest is in gaining muscle and looking better, there may be better routines. But Starting Strength is about one thing ... strength. Pure and simple. It never claims otherwise. Starting Strength has been used as a fundamental building block by athletic trainers for years; it is often modified to be sport specific, but its fundamental lifts have proven effective over and over. After one has reached strength standards, it is typical (and recommended) to move on to a more advanced strength routine, which may explain why many of the big guys you have met are no longer doing a stripped down strength routine. Yes, those with serious pre-existing injuries may want to opt for a different program (probably machine based), but that will be true of almost any strength training program. Those with only minor injuries can just start SS at a lower weight and improve more slowly. Hope that helps address your concerns.
    • jacques_chester 13y ago
      > Lifting weights in general has been shown to improve cardiovascular health; obviously not as much as pure cardiovascular training, but the science is pretty conclusive that it has a positive impact on your heart. It is worth noting that the adaptation of the heart to weight training is different to the adaptation caused by traditional "cardio". Weight training causes the heart walls to thicken because, during muscular contraction, blood pressure spikes and the heart must beat against that pressure. For heavy compound exercises the spike can be very high (which is why weight training is contraindicated for some trainees). Cardio training however is aerobic -- the muscles begin to use blood-borne glucose and oxygen. This means that the heart must deliver more blood per stroke and so ultimately, the heart chambers grow larger. Both adaptations have a positive impact on heart health. For most people doing both strength and some conditioning work is good.
• imagist 13y ago
  Everybody is different. I tried a lot of different workout routines and while I would enjoy and make quick gains from each one, I would eventually stop making gains and get bored, and stop. For years I thought that if I could motivate myself to stick with something, I would be able to get healthy. What I realized is that variety is exactly what I need. Now I'll generally switch up my routine once every month or two. Right now I'm on a biking kick because the weather is finally getting nice here. Before that it was pull-ups/push-ups/one-legged squats. Before that it was yoga. There are tons of ways to get fit. Starting strength worked for me--for three months--but it's not any more the "one true way" than anything else.
• phillmv 13y ago
  >Please don't waste your time with this "workout," unless of course you're so weak and fragile that it'll literally kill you to do a squat. I think gym-nerds vastly underestimate how out of shape the median person is. I started doing a variation of this regimen every day before work two weeks ago and I feel better already. I was sore for the first two days from just a few sets of squats. Who gives a fuck about being able to bench press all you can bench press? It sounds like macho bullshit to me. I don't care about being as strong as I can be. I care about not being winded when I hit the top of the stairs, and I care about not having back aches from sitting in a chair all the time, and I care about dying a bit later than sooner. If a few simple bodyweight reps once a day or three times a week will get me there without the expense and the hours wasted travelling to and from gyms all so much the better.
  • gcv 13y ago
    > I don't care about being as strong as I can be. You should. From the introduction to Rippetoe's Starting Strength: “Physical strength is the most important thing in life. This is true whether we want it to be or not. As humanity has developed throughout history, physical strength has become less critical to our daily existence, but no less important to our lives. Our strength, more than any other thing we possess, still determines the quality and the quantity of our time here in these bodies. Whereas previously our physical strength determined how much food we ate and how warm and dry we stayed, it now merely determines how well we function in these new surroundings we have crafted for ourselves as our culture has accumulated. But we are still animals - our physical existence is, in the final analysis, the only one that actually matters. A weak man is not as happy as that same man would be if he were strong. This reality is offensive to some people who would like the intellectual or spiritual to take precedence. It is instructive to see what happens to these very people as their squat strength goes up.”
    • mtext 13y ago
      self-help deep shit. It seems that HN readers read a lot of self help shit. Maybe everyone does. How can you read that kind of generalist catch-phrase style and not perceive it's lack of quality?
• bconway 13y ago
  It reminded me of one of my favorite phrases, "The easiest way to get in shape doesn't exist."
• Dewie 13y ago
  Your post is useless as an argument against this specific exercise since it offers no argument against it - only an appeal to tradition (well, recent tradition since I'm guessing that circular interval training predates any modern incarnation of barbells). - The article talks about HIIT which is a more general principle and not just a name for this specific exercise. It has been shown to be in some regards better than longer endurance exercises. And yes, with scientific studies with a HIIT group and a control group. The specific exercises that I have seen have been more about running or cycling than body weight exercises for that matter. - This post was clearly aimed at people that want overall health and not necessarily more explosive strength, yet you only complain about the strength-part. - EVEN disregarding the last point: you can gain a lot of strength from just body exercises and some props like a bar; all I have to say is gymnasts. I guess you can't accuse that sport of being a recent fad. Whether or not barbells and dumbbells are better comes down to the specifics of explosive versus endurance, strength vs bulk and so on and so on.
  • nazgulnarsil 13y ago
    >you can gain a lot of strength from just body exercises and some props like a bar; all I have to say is gymnasts. would you like your steroid injection now or later? Taking fitness cues from professional athletes who are ALL on PEDs is silly.
    • Dewie 13y ago
      And bodybuilders aren't notorious for being juiced up? People that are in very competitive sports aren't in it for the fitness, they are in it to win, even if it wrecks their body (and their integrity). No amateur should follow a high-level professionals regimen verbatim, if all she wants is the fitness. Anyway, aren't some gymnast exercises very demanding, and demand a lot of functional strength? Even if not, with some basic props and your body there is a lot of difficult things that you can do - handstand pushups, one-armed handstand pushups, muscle up, one armed pullup, L-sit...
      • nazgulnarsil 13y ago
• WettowelReactor 13y ago
  Starting Strength is bandied about like the bible of fitness. While it is a great read, especially for beginners, you should take any such cult following with a grain of salt. For anyone who has never done free weights I cannot recommend enough the need for finding a competent trainer when you are starting out. Although SS goes into great detail on how to properly perform the lifts nothing compare with having a professional evaluate your form. This is even more important in a sport like lifting where often times the first hint that you are not using proper form is through injury. The big catch to this advice is that most professional/fitness trainers are worthless. I don't have any advice on how to weed out the good ones from the bad ones other than getting recommendations from someone you trust.
• hownottowrite 13y ago
  I'm really enjoying this thread. My idea of a good gym is one that has an espresso bar with delicious brownies and a fireplace. However, my wife is both ACSM and NASM certified. She's spent the last decade "just doing the damn squats" and all the rest of her waking hours working with clients and studying, studying, studying. I've been reading your replies out loud and she says, "Right on!" And yeah, I'm a pretty lucky dude. :)
  • didibus 13y ago
    That's strange, she is ACSM certified, yet she disagrees with an ACSM paper? Just wondering why she does.
    • hownottowrite 13y ago
      Oh not at all. The paper is just fine. The NYT summary though could lead someone to think that this 7 minute work out is all anyone needs. As any trainer will tell you, the certifications provide tools for directing clients to the best program to reach their goals.
  • pvnick 13y ago
    I'm so happy to hear that! It's nice to find a corroborating opinion in the sea of fitness relativism :)
• richcollins 13y ago
  I've been lifting weights for 20 years and was always fairly strong but I felt I never got results that justified the amount of work I put in. I decided to try starting stength after hearing so many great things about it. In 3 months all of my lifts have nearly doubled. Sometimes you really are just doing it wrong ...
  • pvnick 13y ago
    Your's is my favorite comment here. The harmful fitness relativism that plagues the industry and this whole thread is actually making people weak and more likely to die early.
• logjam 13y ago
  Sigh. In an HN thread commenting on a scientific study, our top comment is an N=1 report, followed immediately by the commenter peddling the book of a self-described fitness expert who praises "ultra-high calorie diets", followed downthread by the same commenter peddling some "supplement" called "Pre-Exercise CNS-Carnosine-ATP Augmentor". Really, HN?
  • didibus 13y ago
    I think a downvote option would have solved this problem. Why doesn't HN have a downvote anyway? Am I just stupid and don't see it?
    • itsprofitbaron 13y ago
      You are allowed to downvote once you get a certain amount of karma.
      • didibus 13y ago
        Ah thanks, did just make my account today.
    • ben0x539 13y ago
      You need a pile of karma to be able to downvote people. So you're not stupid, pg only assumes you are.
  • tsahyt 13y ago
    As someone who made best progress following the ideas described in Starting Strength after trying numerous approaches that didn't really work, I'd say you can safely assume N=2 now. Really, this book teaches a very "old-school" approach to fitness but as a matter of fact, it does work and it did indeed work for thousands and thousands of people already. I know we like to get all scientific on everything these days, and I think this is a good thing, but there's something about fitness and especially building muscle that makes intuitive sense without any science whatsoever: If you want to be strong, start lifting heavy things. Do that in a controlled fashion, with a simple workout plan, and you'll eventually succeed.
• dwc 13y ago
  I tried this. I did squats, dead lifts, presses. I ate like a horse because I was very hungry. I drank a lot of milk and protein powder. I was gaining a pound per week, and my wife asked me (after a month) if I'd lost weight. On dead lift days you can eat the whole world and still lose weight, if you're challenging yourself.
• derleth 13y ago
  > you'll offset the entire effect of this workout by eating a cookie Hm. I dealt with this problem by radical diet change and no change in activity level. I lost more than 100 lbs in a year by going essentially vegetarian for a couple months and then gradually changing my diet into to something that's still not what it was but is something I can live with long-term. Right now, I'm doing what I'll be doing the rest of my life, which is monitoring my weight and modifying my diet based on observed results but otherwise eating what I want. I still walk multiple hours a day, as I did before I lost weight, while I lost weight, and will until I physically can't, but I did (and do) no other exercise. I'm predisposed to being fat. That may or may not be genetic in a meaningful sense, but I treat it as if it is. I know I'm genetically predisposed to Type 2 diabetes. If I get fat again and stay fat long enough, I'm going to have to manage that. I'd rather manage the process of staying a healthy weight.
• douevenlift 13y ago
  Yo, do you need a number for the gym? You sure? I was just looking at your comments, you need to start lifting. Do you even lift bro? You’re probably a skinnylicious man, your girl is bigger than you, you’d better start lifting. You gotta work a little bit harder for muscles. Where are you going so fast? Gym?? You mean go milk the cows, you don’t work out bro, you look small. You look small, do you want a sandwich? You need to pump some iron! Do you even lift bro? Small muscles, I’m serious, do you want to press the reset button and start with this girly dumbbell? I was looking at your muscles, you’re a small guy.
• pfedor 13y ago
  Say I don't necessarily want to be ripped but I just want to do the minimum amount of exercise to be healthy. So I can go to the gym twice a week and do the program you advocate, or go to the gym twice a week and swim or run on the elliptical for 45 minutes. Your program will be better for me--unless I injure myself, and the risk of injury is much greater with free weight lifting than with swimming/ellipticals. Are the beneficial effects of free weights really that much better that they offset the risk of injury? Honest question.
  • pvnick 13y ago
    Good question, yes they are. Free weight exercise done the right way, as described in Starting Strength, is the best way to prevent injury and improve health. Progress will be fast enough to impress you and motivate you to keep working, but slow enough to where you can stop increasing the weights if you feel that you're getting too "ripped." But watch as your squat weights start increasing, your clothes start fitting better, and you start getting more looks from people of your preferred gender, and you'll love having a body that's the product of weightlifting.
  • Detrus 13y ago
    I got some potentially chronic knee injuries lifting weights. As someone who barely squats ~235 these are probably not too serious. I made mistakes in form and routine to get them, serious mistakes that I see others making at the gym. I see more people make very noticeable mistakes in squat/deadlift form than not. These are average athletic 185 lbs at 6' at globo gym, hardcore gyms would be the opposite. That's where most injuries come from for non-elite athletes. Also mistakes in choosing routines, stay away from elite athlete workouts. After correcting form and playing around with routine and resistance level, these "injuries" are bothering me a lot less. I used to do squats 3x5 at 180-220 lbs twice a week. Now doing one medium weight 3x8 back squat day, one light front squat day, one heavy 3x5 day. Increasing the frequency seems to help keep the knee ready over the course of the week. And runners and swimmers get injuries too. I had those. One particularly memorable calf muscle pull swimming, painful to walk for over a month. The benefits of progressive strength training over staying in "shape" exercising is that it gets your body closer to its natural well fed, well prepared state. It simulates the life humans evolved for, hunter gatherers or farmers, not lethargic bed ridden hipster skinny jeans. Your bone density increases, your hormone levels become normal. Your face looks less childlike. I know from personal experience it helps a lot with depression and others believe this as well. Exercising without progressing to a recommended level of strength, 2.5xBW deadlift, 2xBW squat, etc. just doing 50 pushups, bunch of light curls, left me feeling not much better and not motivated to continue. But I was in extremely bad shape, people who live actively don't need a strength training shock treatment to feel normal.
• alinspired 13y ago
  30 min of average-intensity running will not get you anywhere, body adapts quickly. this is a good set of exercises to mix into your home (next to the chair) routine. and the point of the article is intensity level while touching most of muscle groups.
• david_shaw 13y ago
  Comparing this workout to Starting Strength is analogous to comparing a half-marathon to walking a mile a day. I agree with you that this workout isn't going to make you 'ripped,' but to say that it is a "waste of time" is absolute hyperbole. Let me explain. If you take a workout like this--that lasts, say, ten minutes (slightly longer than the one described), you will be getting 70 minutes of somewhat intense exercise per week. It's not as intense as doing deadlifts, but if you follow the routine as prescribed (10-second or so breaks in between exercises on the circuit), you're going to be at least performing somewhat taxing activity. Compare that to someone who works out 2-3 times per week for 30 minutes at the gym. First of all, that time in the gym generally contains at least 5-10 minutes of breaks, waiting for machines/weights, etc. Let's just factor that out to make a more fair comparison. The article, but more importantly the study[1] it references, is stating that you can have much of the effect as a longer workout. It never claims that you can get the full effect of a 30 minute workout in ten minutes, but it does imply that you can more than just the third you'd expect. Now you have efficiency gains on two fronts: first, you're working out almost as much per week as going to the gym a couple times, but spending smaller chunks of time exercising. For a lot of people, that's attractive. Secondly, if the study is correct, then getting more efficiency per time makes you "break even" in terms of generalized fitness. In short, I don't think the authors of the NY Times article or the study behind it are saying that you can become a bodybuilder or a competitive-class weightlifter by following their steps. They are saying that working out for, say, 70 minutes per week is a lot easier than committing to going to the gym several times, and that their technique apparently produces efficiency gains as if you were working out for longer periods of time. I don't know enough about biology and physiology to dispute the claims of the study, and although you mention elsewhere that you're in a biology-related field, I doubt that you have the prowess to dispute their academic claims either. I really think that all of this boils down to the fact that short, intense workouts produces more gains than its percentage of a longer workout. 1: http://journals.lww.com/acsm-healthfitness/Fulltext/2013/05000/HIGH_INTENSITY_CIRCUIT_TRAINING_USING_BODY_WEIGHT_.5.aspx http://journals.lww.com/acsm-healthfitness/Fulltext/2013/050... Edit: Even though I disagree with you about the potential efficiency of the workout described, I'd also like to second your opinion that for those trying to get stronger, Starting Strength really is the way to go. Don't fool yourself into thinking that this workout is going to do anything other than provide the bare healthy minimum of exercise.
• kevinpet 13y ago
  How dare someone not value your hobbies as much as you do. This article is specifically about a time efficient workout that does not require special equipment. While this article does not report on a controlled study, I don't think it deserves quotes around "science" since it does appear to rely on real science like 5. Gibala MJ, Little JP, Essen MV, et al.. Short-term sprint interval versus traditional endurance training: similar initial adaptations in human skeletal muscle and exercise performance. J Physiol. 2006; 575 (3): 901–11. Your comment is overly dismissive without the supporting evidence to back it up. The authors of this piece have the same qualification (CSCS) as your preferred source.